posted
The topic about "topless bathing" leaded me to this question. As I am personally studying humanistic psychology I come sometimes to the point that the facts I have to learn and the results of medical studies contradict with what the Islam tell us. I mean there are "official" therapies, guidelines etc. which are teached on any University in the world. Because they are proven successful for ages. And what about other sciences like biology, especially regarding evolution? Another example: the majority of gynaecologists in the western world (there are studies about that) would say, that it is not risky in any way to have sex with a woman during her period. The majority of docs in the islamic world will of course tell you the opposite.
Does religion influence the point of view in sciences? And how you can get along with it? Maybe there are students among ES-people who can help me with that?
I'm looking forward to your questions after you studied both sites inshaAllah.
Just one thing: the majority of people has been wrong at many times. When God tells us something is bad for us we do believe it, because we have faith in Him and His wisdom and knowledge that surpass any knowledge that we humans could possibly have.
Maybe the answer to your question is Islam, as it is not a religion in the sense of something to be followed blindly, there are some orders that we are asked to follow as part of the rules of the religion, but on the whole it is a thinking religion that encourages questioning and learning and I think that if you look more deeply, you will find that it doesn’t clash with scientific facts, but maybe some of its theories!
You mentioned that the therapies and theories that are being taught around the world in universities are being taught because they have been successful for ages. Most modern psychology theories that are being studied were only developed during the last 150 years or so and many of them have been disproved/changed/modified over time following new discoveries and ideas.
However, it maybe that sometimes Allah is not asking us to do something or restrain from it due to a particular physical harm, maybe there is another wisdom behind the command!
As much as you question Islam as it is a new culture/area of knowledge for you, can I suggest that you also use the same critical skills when you are studying modern science? As Karin indicated, if you accept Allah as being the Creator of the universe, maybe He does know somethings that we don’t or maybe we haven’t yet discovered yet?! Scientific theories are just that, theories to try to explain events based on the best available knowledge, they are not facts. Many of the things that we have taken as facts from science have later been disproved by new discoveries.
posted
Thanks thanks thanks newcomer for the links. That's exactly what I am looking for. When I will open my own clinic next year, I want to offer a special therapy for binational couples and these were the infos I was looking for to have a clear bases on consulting muslim people. Its great.
Regarding the other sciences: I know, that believing is not knowing. But for me personally it is so difficult and has ever been, even during schooltimes, to learn something which you do not believe. I mean, you can just learn hard facts about this and that, but if it comes to serious discussions in exams or whatever, you have to do more than just bring out the same odd facts. . You have to discuss theories, exploring new ways etc. And how can you be a successful scientist if you do not believe in the theories your profession is based on? Thats my problem.
quote:Originally posted by newcomer: There are some orders that we are asked to follow as part of the rules of the religion, but on the whole it is a thinking religion that encourages questioning and learning and I think that if you look more deeply, you will find that it doesn’t clash with scientific facts, but maybe some of its theories!
Let me first explain what a scientific theory is. We commonly hear a scientific claim being dismissed because it is “just a theory”. Yet a scientific theory is a concept that has considerable evidence behind it and has endured the attempts to disprove it. It must be extensively tested or confirmed and it must continue to survive attempts to disconfirm its predictions in order to win and keep such a title. Otherwise, it is more properly called a hypothesis. Facts are what have been carefully observed to be the case. Theories, in contrast, are explanations of those facts. It is possible for a theory to be so well confirmed that it is nearly as certain to be true as the facts it explains, but that would still not make it a fact: theories are not observed, they are only confirmed by what is observed. In the end, a theory’s success in explaining the past and predicting future facts is the basis for believing it is a correct account of things, and that is more than sufficient as a justification.
Can any religion survive these tests? I doubt that. And the best answer is what Monica provided. Religion is about faith. It has very little to do with critical thinking.
I don't think that you said anything different from me, I differentiated between facts and theories and commented that theories were based on the best possible evidence of the time, but that many of them had been disputed and modified later. This comment was particularly related to the field Jutta had raised in relation to psychological theories. For example, although there are still people still hold onto Freud's "theories," most psychologists nowadays do not accept them as being the basis for human actions.
The interesting thing about the link between science and Islam is that many scientists have actually come to accept Islam due to their indepth study of science, when they have come to the conclusion that for the universe to be as it is it had to have a sole creator and that it couldn't have just all happened randomly and by trial and error.
quote:Originally posted by Jutta3: Thanks thanks thanks newcomer for the links. That's exactly what I am looking for.
And how can you be a successful scientist if you do not believe in the theories your profession is based on? Thats my problem.
Salaams Jutta
Keep searching and questioning and you will eventually come to a place that you feel comfortable. There are many Muslim psychologists out there who are facing the same dilemmas as you and trying to come to a place they feel comfortable between their profession and their faith. Try to get hold of the Psychology Department in the International Islamic University of Malaysia or some of the work by Professor Malik Badri. Insha Allah they will be able to offer you some help.
quote:Originally posted by Jutta3: Another example: the majority of gynaecologists in the western world (there are studies about that) would say, that it is not risky in any way to have sex with a woman during her period. The majority of docs in the islamic world will of course tell you the opposite.
It's not about safe or unsafe. It's about easy to get pregnant or not.
posted
Jutta, I myself haven't had any problem with Islam vs. science. If you find science tells you something that goes against the Koran it usually turns out it goes against what you *think* the Koran says.
For example evolution. I have no problem with it, I totally believe in evolution as much as I believe in gravity. You'd have to be dense not to. But I don't think creation and evolution contradict. The Koran tells us Adam and Eve were created and then descended from heaven. And that's it. Unlike the bible it doesn't try to trace what happened from then on and it doesn't tell us the world was created six thousand years ago. It also doesn't tell us that God created the universe in six Earth days because it says specifically that each of these days was as long as sixty thousand years (relativity, or maybe something we don't understand).
There are a couple of verses in Koran (will try to find them) that tell us God created mankind in the most perfect form then degraded us to the lowest of the low. One of it's interpretations is that God reduced man to a lower form (protoplasm or something) and then allowed it to evolve once again. Others say the degrading is just the exodus of Adam and Eve from heaven. But since we don't believe in original sin or that our current state as humans is the lowest of the low then I don't think so. Just try to think for yourself more and listen little to pre-fab responses, apply the hadith that says "ask your soul for a fatwa even if others give you one".
posted
And about sex during the period. Gross. And I thought ladies were not really very comfortable during "the days". Maybe this is a rule to give sanctuary to women at a time when they couldn't care less about a penis.
[This message has been edited by kimo_the_maniac (edited 06 May 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by Monica: [b] The majority of docs in the islamic world will of course tell you the opposite
Did you ever think that it could be 'hygiene' related, Islamically speaking ?
[/B]
Of course I did think of it. The question which is so interesting for me is, that obviously the religion seems to influence the results which comes out of studies. Because there are numerous medical studies which tell you that it is not "unhygienic" at all. And not unhealthy.
quote:Originally posted by kimo_the_maniac: And about sex during the period. Gross. And I thought ladies were not really very comfortable during "the days". Maybe this is a rule to give sanctuary to women at a time when they couldn't care less about a penis.
[This message has been edited by kimo_the_maniac (edited 06 May 2004).]
Hm, discussing is always enriching. Funny that you think that women dont like it during their period. As I know it from close friends or women I have spoken to, this is the time where you like it more than the rest of the month. Anything is more delicate and sensitive.
quote:Originally posted by Jutta3: Of course I did think of it. The question which is so interesting for me is, that obviously the religion seems to influence the results which comes out of studies. Because there are numerous medical studies which tell you that it is not "unhygienic" at all. And not unhealthy.
Which "studies" say it's not unhigienic? There are "studies" saying aliens built the pyramids.
[This message has been edited by kimo_the_maniac (edited 07 May 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by Jutta3: Hm, discussing is always enriching. Funny that you think that women dont like it during their period. As I know it from close friends or women I have spoken to, this is the time where you like it more than the rest of the month. Anything is more delicate and sensitive.
===========
Jutta , I was thinking the same yesterday, how come Kimo assume that especially that he is a male
quote:Originally posted by Jutta3: Hm, discussing is always enriching. Funny that you think that women dont like it during their period. As I know it from close friends or women I have spoken to, this is the time where you like it more than the rest of the month. Anything is more delicate and sensitive.
Indeed it is interesting. Brave ladies please tell us what you think.
Let me tell you that from our side of the fence we think that menstruation isn't a lot of fun for most women. I mean who wants to have sex when they have cramps? And oooh nooo, from this side it seems everything is irritating and annoying to the ladies during the "days", not delicate or more sensitive at all. But then again I wouldn't know personally.
Anyway, it's a stupid point. If someone wants to have sex during the period they wouldn't be infidels, they will just be messy.
quote:Originally posted by Mooly El Din: ===========
Jutta , I was thinking the same yesterday, how come Kimo assume that especially that he is a male
Cheers
Well Mooly, read the above post for a view from this side. But anyway, are you ladies telling me that generally it's okay with women to have sex during the period? If so then I stand corrected.
One more thing I have two kitties and when the tom tries to touch the female when she's menstruating she tears him a new one. I guess we humans are different then.
[This message has been edited by kimo_the_maniac (edited 07 May 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by kimo_the_maniac: Well Mooly, read the above post for a view from this side. But anyway, are you ladies telling me you're okay with sex during the period? If so then I'm okay.
One more thing I have two kitties and when the tom tries to touch the female when she's menstruating she tears him a new one. I guess we humans are different then.
Kimo, we are not telling you that all women like it, it is a personal choice; we are rather telling that you made a general assumption on behalf of the women based on your personal feelings ( Gross )
Cheers
[This message has been edited by Mooly El Din (edited 07 May 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by Mooly El Din: Kimo, we are not telling you any thing about ourselves , we are telling you that you basing your assumption on your personal feelings ( Gross )
Cheers
So, now I am asking. Do most ladies (not yourselves but hypothetical third persons) enjoy sex more during the period. If not then why the big fuss?
quote:Originally posted by kimo_the_maniac: So, now I am asking. Do most ladies (not yourselves but hypothetical third persons) enjoy sex more during the period. If not then why the big fuss?
hahaha
If you have just given me a second, I have edited my post, as I misread yours
quote:Originally posted by Mooly El Din: Kimo, we are not telling you that all women like it, it is a personal choice; we are rather telling that you made a general assumption on behalf of the women based on your personal feelings ( Gross )
Cheers
[This message has been edited by Mooly El Din (edited 07 May 2004).]
Okay you changed it. I didn't make the assumption based on the feeling that it is gross (or disgusting if gross gives you a feeling I am a simpleton Mooly ;-). The former was not based on the latter as an assumption. My assumption is based on common wisdom and observation which say that generally women are uncomfortable at that time of month. All I am asking now is if this common wisdom is a myth?
quote:Originally posted by kimo_the_maniac: So, now I am asking. Do most ladies (not yourselves but hypothetical third persons) enjoy sex more during the period. If not then why the big fuss?
well well, to give you an acurate and representative answer, we have to conduct a research involving women from different cultural and social backgrounds; and from different age groups; oops speaking science again
But from personal obervation some do some dont, I agree there is no need for big fuss,
quote:Originally posted by kimo_the_maniac: Okay you changed it. I didn't make the assumption based on the feeling that it is gross (or disgusting if gross gives you a feeling I am a simpleton Mooly ;-). The former was not based on the latter as an assumption. My assumption is based on common wisdom and observation which say that generally women are uncomfortable at that time of month. All I am asking now is if this common wisdom is a myth?
quote:Originally posted by kimo_the_maniac: Okay you changed it. I didn't make the assumption based on the feeling that it is gross (or disgusting if gross gives you a feeling I am a simpleton Mooly ;-). The former was not based on the latter as an assumption. My assumption is based on common wisdom and observation which say that generally women are uncomfortable at that time of month. All I am asking now is if this common wisdom is a myth?
Kimo, I will check if there is any research work has investigated this issue and will let you know
posted
There is nothing conflicting between Islam and science. However the idolization of science by the west is not admirable. They left the right side of their brains to rot, they have no spirituality.
Posts: 58 | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Originally posted by El Kadafi: There is nothing conflicting between Islam and science. However the idolization of science by the west is not admirable. They left the right side of their brains to rot, they have no spirituality.
up to 50% of adult females suffer from DYSMENORRHEA during their menses, incl. headache, cramps, backache, nausea, vomiting, radiating pain etc. and 10% are incapacitated for 1-3 days each month because of it.
posted
This whole thing diverted completely to the topic of sex and forgot the original point.
Look, Islam and science do not contradict each other at all. There is no rule in Islamic that has not been scientifically proved to be right or for a good cause, so I suggest you look better at the reason for women not to having sex during their period.
One example in Islam I heard recently is when a dog licks something it ought to be washed seven times, first one is in sand. It's been scientifically proven that dog's saliva contains some kind of hazardous substance that can only be cleared off using the sand,no matter how many times you washed it with soap and dipped it in antiseptic. So it's just not superstitions (although I wonder if many people will agree with me on this example)
Still, there are the abnormal phenomena that science cannot explain and to Muslims it's all a matter of faith for them. All we can do is believe that such things are God's doings and that he's capable of it.
So it's all to say that Science and Religion actually go together. There is no science without faith.
quote:Originally posted by Monica: Really people....each one of us is hopefully mature enough to do, or not to do what feels comfortable, hygienic, and when, and why....
Do you all go running to your Qur'an, or Bibles, before going to bed to make sure everything is done according to the letter?
quote:Originally posted by El Kadafi: There is nothing conflicting between Islam and science. However the idolization of science by the west is not admirable. They left the right side of their brains to rot, they have no spirituality.
Please dont generalize about the West. We are in fact spiritual people. But we believe in a other religion, but this has nothing to do with: not being spiritual
quote:Originally posted by El Kadafi: ^If the West was Christian I would not have said that. Westerners have no religion. Do you really believe in Jesus?
Thou Shalt Not Kill Thou Shalt Not Steal
And I grew up seeing my brothers and sisters raped into sorrow by the West.
I could also get started on African, Middle Eastern or Eastern countries with no faith.
If you think I said something because of Christianity that is dead wrong.
[This message has been edited by El Kadafi (edited 10 May 2004).]
I do really believe in Jesus and most People here in the West do. But its like in the muslim countries: there are good and bad people everywhere. And there are believers, strong believers and fanatic believers everywhere. Please dont generalize. Muslims also murder although they believe in Allah. Thats not an argument. You see crime in any country of the world, among believers and non-believers.
quote:Originally posted by Jutta3: Please dont generalize about the West. We are in fact spiritual people. But we believe in a other religion, but this has nothing to do with: not being spiritual
Huh? I thought you converted to Islam!! How come you believe in another religion?
quote:Originally posted by Jutta3: I do really believe in Jesus and most People here in the West do. But its like in the muslim countries: there are good and bad people everywhere. And there are believers, strong believers and fanatic believers everywhere. Please dont generalize. Muslims also murder although they believe in Allah. Thats not an argument. You see crime in any country of the world, among believers and non-believers.
Jutta, I don't want to sound imposing, but why did you convert to Islam? You seem to have many very lively doubts. For example when you say you believe in Jesus, do you believe in him as a prophet and an exemplary human being or as a lord and deity? Because that's detrimental. I am not criticising you either, it's always good to have lively suspicions and curiosities, but when they are all about fundamentals and are so long lived then something may be the matter.
Of course I am not qualified to judge you (no one is qualified to judge anyone on these issues). I can't tell you what to do but with all due respect I think you rushed into conversion (common mistake). You sound more like a spiritual seeker, you should have waited and addressed these concerns (especially the one you've been circumnavigating about the divinity of Jesus) instead of rushing headlong. Anyway, you're free to do what you want and to believe what you want.
quote:Originally posted by kimo_the_maniac: Jutta, I don't want to sound imposing, but why did you convert to Islam? You seem to have many very lively doubts. For example when you say you believe in Jesus, do you believe in him as a prophet and an exemplary human being or as a lord and deity? Because that's detrimental. I am not criticising you either, it's always good to have lively suspicions and curiosities, but when they are all about fundamentals and are so long lived then something may be the matter.
Of course I am not qualified to judge you (no one is qualified to judge anyone on these issues). I can't tell you what to do but with all due respect I think you rushed into conversion (common mistake). You sound more like a spiritual seeker, you should have waited and addressed these concerns (especially the one you've been circumnavigating about the divinity of Jesus) instead of rushing headlong. Anyway, you're free to do what you want and to believe what you want.
I think "rushing in" is not the right word, but you are right: it was too early - or maybe too late - in a special sense. When I started to learn about Islam I met a wonderful mufti here in Germany. He is a German but converted long long time ago (I think 30 or 40 years ago) after he worked in Saudi Arabia for a while. In some kind you can call him "liberal" (I didn't find a more suitable word). When I told him about all my inner quarrels with myself, my doubts and thoughts, but also about my strong believing in God (in general) and about my tolerance for other religions etc., he started look at me quite a long time without saying a word. After that he told me: "You are true muslim, even if you dont know". He gave me some very interesting books about Sufism and they really fascinated me. This mufti also told me, that it not only a question of being able to fullfill the duties of praying, covering and all the other duties we have in Islam, but also to look behind everything and to think about what you are doing. And I am thinking about that every day in my life. And I can say with deep conviction, that I do believe in God/Allah/Jehova or however you call him and I do believe in all his prophets, also in Mohammed, also in Jesus and also in Ghautama Bhudda. For all who are asking now what I am believing: I had a near-death-experience ten years ago. And since then, according to the things I "heard" when I was "dead", and because I started to get informations about that, I am believing, that for God, there is no difference in believing him. As long as a human being is believing in him, no matter how he/she prays or the way how he/she has a good character, everybody will enter "HIS" world/paradise after death. So after that I started to search for the common things within the religions and if you are searching for, you will find so so so many things which are the same in any religion in the world. And so many misunderstandings between "the believers" which leaded and still leads to war in the world. And I personally can not imagine that this is something God wants to see or wants us to do. So I know, from the different points of view of all the religions in the world I am accursed to go to hell, because I do not believe 100% in only one book. But they were all written down by humans and noone knows if they wrote down everything or if they failed and maybe misunderstood what they were revealed by god. I truely believe in what they have in common - all together. I believe in God, in his prophets and in the fact of "being a good human being" is nearly the same in every part of the world and in every languange on the world. I believe that peace between religions is possible and that love and tolerance are the key words here. I could write hundreds of pages about that and I know that most of the people do not understand and even accept what I think and - sorry to say this (I dont want to offend) - mostly Muslims are blaming me for that. I admire people who can believe in only one religion because I feel that this gives them a certain kind of security. But I can't. As hard as I tried to, I can't. Because for me, God means such a great power, that he can do everything he want: even be father for a human being and send his divineness into a human body if he likes to do it. I can not believe, that he tells the people that there is something in the world he can not do. And I can not believe, that only something around 1400 years ago he decided to give mankind the real and only true "guideline" for life and never will do again. He is GOD. And I am convinced that he will give mankind a new guideline, maybe 10.000 years later, and again, like in the centuries ago, and like it happend before: noone will believe the new prophet, if there will be one, because everyone is convinced that his religion is the only true one. And they will kill the prophet again. Like all prophets before. And there will be again wars between believers of all religions. and thousand and millions of killed people in the name of GOD.
quote:Originally posted by karinfarid: I've not met the woman yet who does not suffer from any sort of side effect of the female cycle.
I always thought all this talk about women suffering when they have their period is a big load of crap since I never suffer from any kind of side effects. I hardly even notice it .
I stand corrected though because I have a few friends who suffer from severe cramps and I can imagine them not wanting to have sex during that time simply because they don't feel very comfortable in their bodies.
I just don't understand why it can't be left a private matter and the couple choses whether or not they want to have sexual intercourse when the woman is menstruating or not?
I'd rather listen to my body than having scientists or religious scholars telling me what I'm supposed to do or not to do in the privacy of my bedroom.
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