quote:Originally posted by Penny: Akshar I agree with you and was at first also offended by this statement. When I thought about it though I then realised that what this interchange gave us was a true insight into how the Egyptian class system works and thinks. Like you I don't agree with it but that IS the way they think and we can't change that. I am often amazed at the way Egyptians will not do something they think below them e.g. cleaning, gardening etc. and they see the people who carry out those tasks as very low. As a middle class professional it is completely normal to do me to do those things myself and would never expect anyone to do such things for me, yet this is a big shock to any Egyptian of similar status. Think of the status of a gardener in the UK these days... a very fast up and comming job and very highly paid. It's just interesting to compare the differences.
I do take your point but this guy says he lives in London. So he should have picked up the difference by now
------------------ Jane Akshar UK Co-owner of www.flatsinluxor.co.uk Appartments and Tours in Luxor
posted
Well, getting back to the marriage topic: I believe that marriage is now more commercialized than before in Egypt … and again it depends on which class we are talking about. But generally in comparison with the past, marriage became a deal, and the most capable wins …. Of course capability here means many things … wealthiest, smartest and most famous … etc. I see many girls who no longer dream of “building the marriage nest brick by brick.” They get a calculator to count and try to find whether the deal is good or not. I see parents who started to overlook many conditions like ethics and good behavior for a wealthier groom. I see men that aspire a beautiful wife to show off with rather than a woman to share life with. The establishment of marriage is no longer “well established.”
I will quote this part from www.youregypt.com which meant to be a joke, but indeed it has a meaning: Smart man + Smart woman = love Dumb man + smart woman = fur, diamond, jewelry … etc. Smart man + dumb woman = a crush Dumb man + dumb woman = marriage
------------------ youregypt forum … your convenient answer to your question about Egypt
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But what happens when that marriage is 40 years old and the two people involved in it are so very different from when they were young?
In previous centuries at least one of them would have died, either through disease, accident or childbirth and a new partner found. Life expectancy is now so long that marriage can be almost impossible to sustain until 'death do us part'. The numbers of people divorcing after 20 or 30 years are increasing all the time. Can a marriage that ends after 40 years really be classed as a failure?
Akshar, after that length of time the 'great sex' has long gone and physical contact has become a distant memory. Perhaps that is why the gigolos have such an easy time?
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I think that a marriage that ends after 20, 30 + years can be considered a failure if the reason the couple stayed together is the children for example...or to keep the image...but were always having problems in allother areas..
If the reason behind ending such marriage is boredom for example...or the fact that the couple is not interested anymore in keeping up the relationship, it shows that love and caring and friendship and sharing is not enough after time has taken its toll for many people. In regards with the gigolo thingy...I think that women that do hire them, have a certain need for exactly that type of character wouldn't you say?
quote:Originally posted by Luxorlover: But what happens when that marriage is 40 years old and the two people involved in it are so very different from when they were young?
In previous centuries at least one of them would have died, either through disease, accident or childbirth and a new partner found. Life expectancy is now so long that marriage can be almost impossible to sustain until 'death do us part'. The numbers of people divorcing after 20 or 30 years are increasing all the time. Can a marriage that ends after 40 years really be classed as a failure?
Akshar, after that length of time the 'great sex' has long gone and physical contact has become a distant memory. Perhaps that is why the gigolos have such an easy time?
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You have a point there Monica. Perhaps the women consider what they are doing is wrong and wish to punish themselves. I allowed myself to undergo many indignities in Egypt that I would never have tolerated for one minute in Europe.
Alternatively some may have existed in such sterile conditions in their marriage for so many years that they are desperate to believe that they are wanted, desired and loved.
My marriage did not end because we had things that we shared thay transcended my 'stupidity'. He's a great friend. It is just that for a while I wanted more from my marriage and it was not forthcoming.
Does that make me a betrayer. I suppose it did and that is something that I will have to live with. But, I would still do it again and I am not bitter because at the end of it all my life is infinitely richer than it was before I fell from grace.
Someone once said to me "Anger makes you ugly and bitterness makes you old". A sterile marriage can make you bitter about life. In that case it is better to amend its basis or leave it. It is not a failure of the marriage it is simply a divergence of paths.
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I find your analysis extremely interesting. I am sure that a sterile marriage is not a way of life people want, but you know when I read all the stories of the women going for the gigolos although educated, intelligent etc...it bothers me a lot.
What comes to mind is, ending the marriage first. Clean cut. And then start a new life...but going for the gigolos gives me that feeling of no dignity...no pride...and that puzzles me...what makes that happen?..if we take the Egyptian gigolos for example since we are on the Egypt search forum..what is so fascinating about them...do you think that women that fall for them are maybe in denial, of being maybe in need of psychological help, rather than a stud? Because it is so degrading, to pay for sexual services, regardless of gender, and even if it is under a marriage charade/orfi/temporary...and now women do it almost as often as men....what is going on? what happened to self respect and self preservation and dignity?
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 03 June 2004).]
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After reading this Post I got to wonder how Mohsen is living and working in England with his poor grasp of the English Language? I believe foreign societies accept people like Mohsen for their expertise in certain fields just the same as accepting that mini cab driver and am not surprised that even though Mohsen lives in that same society that accepted him and that mini cab driver, he has not learned to pick up that trait of tolerance which he obviously benefits from living in England. All this just leads to the fact that some of us Egyptians can be very childish in our feeling of superiority to less privileged fellow citizens...so Mr. Mohsen with no intent on insult, I advise you to contemplate your position and try to learn the basics of human values before lecturing us on morals of upper class families.....I also strongly recommend you learn proper English. As for the Main subject Marriage: I have noticed that those less privileged can overcome obstacles and get married and if they can maintain families sure other privileged classes can learn from them. The Trouble with our middle class and the upper class is that they are confused by all the garbage that’s is broadcasted and transmitted 24/7 in the Media and satellite channels. We are generally suffering an Information Shock …we can’t handle it… We need to stay focused, instead of allocating large part of our incomes and time to non essential needs on the expense of some of our basic needs. A relatively familiar example is our addiction to new trends like the internet and mobiles, spending unproductive hours using so called free internet dialups to end up wasting time in chat rooms and meaningless SMS’s and paying huge telephone bills…. What have actually happened is that our society has been tricked into debt via the phone lines in our homes and business as in the case of the internet addiction and mobile mania …., requiring higher income to meet our egoistic demands and since we are not developed enough to achieve this, some of the fragile ethics of society have crumbled to meet this greedy demand which serves no purpose but to further the gap between us and the developed world. By knowing that it takes a few to dig a hole in the ship, for the ship to start to sink. We have to learn to accept our present failures and admit our mistakes working towards developing our society’s ethical and moral standards…Maybe then we can fix some of our mishaps, including marriage problems …
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