Bedouins began to migrate into Sudan from Egypt when many were pushed out by the Mamelukes. Some of these Arab tribes still live around Assuit and Suhaj. Most migrated deeper into Sudan mixing with the Nilotic and Nubians there forming the different stocks of Sudanese you see today. Many were even pushed deeper into sub-Saharan regions like Cameroon or Chad where many of these bedouins Arabs live.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kimo the Maniac
It's supposed to be a racial war between Arabs and Africans but to Egyptians both sides look definitely Black and African!!

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Wow isn't it interesting the Egyptian are sooooooo concerned with their neighbors to the NORTH the Israelis and Palenstinians, who on "both sides" look "definitely" White and Middle Eastern!!!

And just maybe the "victims" are muslim and arabic speaking, because they were FORCED to speak arabic and convert when former President Jaafar Nimeri decided to end the south`s autonomous status and enforce Islamic law. We're not talking about "voluntary" converts here, lets keep it real, shall we.

Many of the southerners were either Christian or had their own indigenous beliefs. Listen to their own words. http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/d/b/dbg128/David%27s%20Essay.html

Now the media is biased on ALL sides, not just the western side. The media in the middle east has been "exaggerating" that the UN has 'threatened' Sudan with war, and no such 'threat' has ever occurred. ( And don't use any middle eastern based news article to try to prove otherwise!)

But you'r right about one thing, the situation over there is "fucked" up!

And please if anyone wants to bring up all the messed up things that the Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists,and every other major religion in this world did, go right ahead, because you didn't hear ME say otherwise.!

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Originally posted by homeylu:
Wow isn't it interesting the Egyptian are sooooooo concerned with their neighbors to the NORTH the Israelis and Palenstinians, who on "both sides" look "definitely" White and Middle Eastern!!!

And just maybe the "victims" are muslim and arabic speaking, because they were [b]FORCED to speak arabic and convert when former President Jaafar Nimeri decided to end the south`s autonomous status and enforce Islamic law. We're not talking about "voluntary" converts here, lets keep it real, shall we.

Many of the southerners were either Christian or had their own indigenous beliefs. Listen to their own words. http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/d/b/dbg128/David%27s%20Essay.html

Now the media is biased on ALL sides, not just the western side. The media in the middle east has been "exaggerating" that the UN has 'threatened' Sudan with war, and no such 'threat' has ever occurred. ( And don't use any middle eastern based news article to try to prove otherwise!)

But you'r right about one thing, the situation over there is "fucked" up!

And please if anyone wants to bring up all the messed up things that the Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists,and every other major religion in this world did, go right ahead, because you didn't hear ME say otherwise.!

[This message has been edited by homeylu (edited 02 August 2004).][/B]

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One thing .. buddy. We are not talking about south Sudan here pal, we are talking about Darfur which is in North west Sudan. So no, sorry to burst your Arabs-and-Muslims-are-monsters-bubble, but these were not forced to convert. They have been Muslims way before Numairy, these were the people who started the Sufi traditions of Sudan in the middle ages. And what forced conversion in South Sudan? The last time I checked they were still Christian/animist, at least when I look right behind my house at that Sudanese church in Maadi these refugees are very openly Christian and they act like they own Egypt or something.

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Originally posted by ausar:
Kimo,the situlation in Sudan is more complex than just ''black'' Africans killing other ''black'' Africans. The situlation in Rwanda was complex to because the Christain missionaries told the Tutsi they were ''tanned white people'' and thus the effects of racial anthropology from the 18th century backfired into a full scale massacre. To most it appears this way but most ''black'' Sudanese northerner consider themselves to be Arabs instead of Africans.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kimo
One thing .. buddy. We are not talking about south Sudan here pal, we are talking about Darfur which is in North west Sudan. So no, sorry to burst your Arabs-and-Muslims-are-monsters-bubble, but these were not forced to convert. They have been Muslims way before Numairy, these were the people who started the Sufi traditions of Sudan in the middle ages.

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Sorry your inability to make a logical response has prompted you to combine two separate paragraphs to make a fruitless argument.

As far as your “arabs-and-muslims-are-monsters-bubble”, clearly you weren’t quoting anything I stated, these are your OWN statements, so this obviously is your pathetic attempt to win the majority Islamic favor on this forum.

Although the majority of the people in that region are muslim, half of them are NOT arabs and feel more of a connection with neighboring African countries than they do with Arab run Khartoum. Hell most of Nigeria is muslim, they don’t consider themselves Arabs, do they?

I appreciate your attempt to provide me with a geography lesson, but my map shows Dufar in the MIDDLE West, only thing in the NORTH West, is the Libyan Dessert. The conflict is between Arab militia and African Tribal rebels, yet you make it sound as if its just some Blacks fighting Blacks with the same cultural system.

quote:

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originally posted by Kimo
And what forced conversion in South Sudan? The last time I checked they were still Christian/animist

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Now this derails any future logical expectations from you, especially when I stated most of the opposition began when the government tried to declare Sudan an Islamic state. The insurgents in Darfur want a peaceful understanding with the South, and both groups are resisting being “arabized” by the government, despite the fact that some are muslim, some are Christian.

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originally posted by Kimo
at least when I look right behind my house at that Sudanese church in Maadi these refugees are very openly Christian and they act like they own Egypt or something.

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What are there like 10 of them (*exaggerating), how could they possibly OWN Egypt?????? Does it irritate you to see BLACK people practicing their own beliefs in a country that belongs to you “personally”??? When you pass a Coptic church ceremony in session, do you get the impression that they are acting as if they OWN Egypt as well????????? No need for me to make any “pathetic” remarks about these statements, you’ve already done so yourself.

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originally posted by Kimo
And one more thing, the Israelis don't look decidedly middle eastern, they look decidedly East European cuz that's where their motherland is anyway

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Israeli Rabbi

Palestinian Sheikh

Sorry they look like 2 white men with white beards to me. Shoot me

quote:

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Originally posted by Kimo
But I am not arguing that this issue is not getting enough attention, the thing is just when people take attitudes like yours, Arabs generally think "Oh what the **** , they will hate us whatever we do, let's just drop it". Be constructive.

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Since you can’t point out where I specified that I hate Arabs, I’ll take this as another pathetic attempt to win favoritism.

If you wanted to be "constructive" you could have left your "It's supposed to be a racial war between Arabs and Africans but to Egyptians both sides look definitely Black and African!!" out of the statement, but it sounded to me like you wanted to be another "C" word-CONTROVERSIAL. Given the fact that most Arabs and Coptics in Egypt don't differ significantly either!

-I said the Northwest, not the Northwest corner.

-I still don't see the distinction between the west and the south in what you originally wrote!

-That rabbi is the high rabbi of Sephardim, that's why he looks Arab. The majority of Israelis are Ashkenazi and they do look European.

-Most news sources talk about this conflict being economic and terretorial. Apparently the Darfur people are fighting famine and desertification and couldn't care less about Arabisation and stuff.

-I don't know why saying they all look black sounds so controversial?? The Flemish and the Waloon in Belgium both look white to everyone, but they think they are different. Everyone is always talking about how they can't tell East Asian nationalities apart, or even middle east nationalities. And nobody is that sensitive about it! Sorry if I touched a nerve or something, I seriously didn't mean to sound controversial.

-When I go to a Coptic church (I don't just pass by), I expect my best friend to act like he owns Egypt because it's his country. BTW if you define "Arab" from a racial point of view then all ethnic Egyptians are not Arab, if you define it from a linguistic point of view then all Egyptians are Arab.

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Originally posted by kimo_the_maniac:
This board is getting too polarised and serious. No fun, no way, enjoy talking to yourselves boys. And I know what you will say "Can't make a logical argument, blah blah blah". Well, I am not trying to make an argumen, I am writing stuff to an Internet board not making a speech at the UN. I have more than enough serious **** to suffice me in real life.[/B]

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Kimo, it is so funny……You keep launching lots of threads and most of them in my opinion are serious and not fun stuff . And when other ES members post counter argument, information, thoughts or opinion, you started complaining that the board is not any more fun, or people are showing off their knowledge, or they are replying as if they are writing a thesis or a UN speech. If you are not making an argument or discussing a point or sharing a thought, if you are not expecting people to take the time to read and reply to your posts, then why the hell you are posting here, better share your thoughts with yourself infront of a mirror.

Cheers

quote:

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Originally posted by Mooly El Din:

Kimo, it is so funny……You keep launching lots of threads and most of them in my opinion are serious and not fun stuff . And when other ES members post counter argument, information, thoughts or opinion, you started complaining that the board is not any more fun, or people are showing off their knowledge, or they are replying as if they are writing a thesis or a UN speech. If you are not making an argument or discussing a point or sharing a thought, if you are not expecting people to take the time to read and reply to your posts, then why the hell you are posting here, better share your thoughts with yourself infront of a mirror.

Cheers

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Mooly it is so funny. Full stop, you are just a funny person in many ways. My problem is not that people are responding, my problem is that the board has been overrun by a group of highly polarised anti-Arab/Islamophobic/Afrocentrists whose rhetoric is very personal. Ausar didn't agree with me, but he didn't get so caustic, so I was really interested at what he wrote.

[Edited on account it may have been too inflamatory ]

quote:

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Originally posted by kimo_the_maniac:

[Edited on account it may have been too inflamatory ]

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Now THAT would have been fun, if you could handle the come-back.

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Originally posted by homeylu:
Now THAT would have been fun, if you could handle the come-back.

Sorry I hi-jacked your thread with another view point. (whoops, did I say hi-jacked, wouldn't want to be accused of being anti-islamic, sorry). I meant to say take over (whoops, then that would equate me to the Sudanese christians in YOUR country), my bad, I meant to say overrun (whoops, now that makes me one of those Afroentrics) Oh well, what can I say, they hate us all anyway.

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quote:

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Originally posted by kimo_the_maniac:
oops this could be mistaken for saying all Africans look similar

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I think you accomplished that in the beginning, and I'm sure it wasn't done mistakenly

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Originally posted by homeylu:
I think you accomplished that in the beginning, and I'm sure it wasn't done [b]mistakenly

[/B]

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quote:

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Are you sure about that Ausar, do you have any links? Because I have always been stumped on this Hutu-Tutsi thing. The news always talked about them being two very distinct ethnic groups, but when you see footage everyone looks exactly the same!!! We, humans, are stupid sometimes. I think I saw on BBC that some Tutsis survived the genocide by forging ID's that had Hutu as ethnicity, so apparently even the people there can't tell the two sides apart. Weird.

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According to early anthropologist the Tutsi were supposed to be ''dark whites'' otherwise known as Hamites that came into Rwanda and Burundi and made the Hutu Virtual slaves. Previously,it was true that the Hutu and Tutsi never got along,but there was never any ethnic genocide,so the violence really started when Christain missionaries came into Rwanda interjecting racial stimulus.

Kimo,go type in the search engine Hamitic myth and Richard Hanning Speake and you will learn more details about the conflict of Rwanda.

Anyway,the incident in Soudan have been going on for a while since at least the Middle Ages. It first started when the Arabs invaded Egypt and spread like wildfire to other parts of Africa.

I not only support the Sudanese but I also support the Imazigh[Berber] people of Northwest Africa getting rid ultimatley of Arabization. I also suppost the Beja rebels in Eastern Sudan,for their cause is very nobel also. Sometimes,however,I feel the Western world is using Southern Sudan to siphion off the oil,and southern Sudanese are follishly feeding into this.

quote:

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Originally posted by kimo_the_maniac:
So Homelyu and all African Americans on the board, I am sorry if what I said hurt you. I didn't mean it this way.

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How about apologizing to some of the Sudanese people out your back door? You can't hurt me, because I'm thousands of miles away from you, and even if you insulted me (which you didn't) out here in cyberspace it wouldn't be the end of the world for me, because I can just throw insults back at you from my key board.

The only thing that irritated me in your original statement was the implication that Egyptians weren't concerned enough because it was just some Blacks fighting other Blacks. Nevermind the fact that there's a right and a wrong, and a somewhere in the middle to all the chaos going on in Sudan.

And the attitude you took towards the church worshippers indicated that you may be a little resentful of them being in Egypt. Nevermind the fact that they are "unofficial" refugees and would probably "never" get political assylum in Egypt. You know as well as I do, that they can't go to school there without paying massive foreign fees, they can't legally work there, because they don't have work visas, many of them just work as maids for foreigners and wealthy Egyptians and some have even resorted to prostitution to feed their families. And maybe church is the only place for them to keep their sanity, yet you seem to look down on it. Just show a little bit more compassion please.

Ausar their is an amount of ethnic cleansing taken place is Sudan, nevermind what others believe, so you're correct. So what if the government has apprehended a few arab militia groups, this did nothing to bring peace in the area. Hundreds of thousands of people have been misplaced from their homes, and the government wouldn't even allow the UN to bring in basic food supplies. What kind of sh*t is that????? I've been following the situation over there for several years, while they have been "invisible" to rest of the world. So I personally don't care if the only reason they are getting international attention is because of possibilty of exploiting oil, as some assume. The oil over there is already controlled by foreign elements- namely the Chinese. I doubt we're prepared to go to war with the Chinese over oil, since many other foreigners are invested in the oil there too. And trust me, ever since oil was discovered in that country, foreigners have wrestled to get there hands on it, with full support from the government.I understand the government only owns like 5% of the oil produced there, and foreign owned companies own the rest and I don't believe a single U.S. corporation owns any part of it, because the US has always supported the Souths SPLA, and have taken many Sudanese as refugees, ow how many have the Chinese(who supports the government) taken??

I'm just content that they are getting international attention period!

The situation in Palestine has been monopoilizing the media for quite some time, and my heart goes out to the injustices there as well. But the situation in Sudan deserves some international support as well. IMO

quote:

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Originally posted by homeylu:
How about apologizing to some of the Sudanese people out your back door? You can't hurt me, because I'm thousands of miles away from you, and even if you insulted me (which you didn't) out here in cyberspace it wouldn't be the end of the world for me, because I can just throw insults back at you from my key board.

The only thing that irritated me in your original statement was the implication that Egyptians weren't concerned enough because it was just some Blacks fighting other Blacks. Nevermind the fact that there's a right and a wrong, and a somewhere in the middle to all the chaos going on in Sudan.

And the attitude you took towards the church worshippers indicated that you may be a little resentful of them being in Egypt. Nevermind the fact that they are "unofficial" refugees and would probably "never" get political assylum in Egypt. You know as well as I do, that they can't go to school there without paying massive foreign fees, they can't legally work there, because they don't have work visas, many of them just work as maids for foreigners and wealthy Egyptians and some have even resorted to prostitution to feed their families. And maybe church is the only place for them to keep their sanity, yet you seem to look down on it. Just show a little bit more compassion please.

Ausar their is an amount of ethnic cleansing taken place is Sudan, nevermind what others believe, so you're correct. So what if the government has apprehended a few arab militia groups, this did nothing to bring peace in the area. Hundreds of thousands of people have been misplaced from their homes, and the government wouldn't even allow the UN to bring in basic food supplies. What kind of sh*t is that????? I've been following the situation over there for several years, while they have been "invisible" to rest of the world. So I personally don't care if the only reason they are getting international attention is because of possibilty of exploiting oil, as some assume. The oil over there is already controlled by foreign elements- namely the Chinese. I doubt we're prepared to go to war with the Chinese over oil, since many other foreigners are invested in the oil there too. And trust me, ever since oil was discovered in that country, foreigners have wrestled to get there hands on it, with full support from the government.I understand the government only owns like 5% of the oil produced there, and foreign owned companies own the rest and I don't believe a single U.S. corporation owns any part of it, because the US has always supported the Souths SPLA, and have taken many Sudanese as refugees, ow how many have the Chinese(who supports the government) taken??

I'm just content that they are getting international attention period!

The situation in Palestine has been monopoilizing the media for quite some time, and my heart goes out to the injustices there as well. But the situation in Sudan deserves some international support as well. IMO

[This message has been edited by homeylu (edited 03 August 2004).]

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Well on second thought, I retract my apology. If anyone feels hurt ... tough. What I meant was not that they are "just" blacks fighting blacks. What I meant is that the two people looked exactly the same so people find it hard to figure out why they are fighting at all. When the North and the South were fighting they were also blacks fighting blacks, but people could see the conflict as a religious one (although that is an oversimplification).

And big deal the Palestinian cause gets media attention, it gets it mainly so that a blonde reporter talking from a west Jerusalem hotel can sound horrified at the acts of Palestinian "terrorism". The minute Americans start embracing the Palestinian cause, they can start demanding Egyptians adopt that of the south Sudanese (granted there are a couple of million refugees from the region in Egypt, more than Palestinians in the US, more than Palestinians in Gaza).

The US has sent (this is gonna surprise you) peace keeping soldiers to Kosovo, they have deployed “peace keeping” troops to Mindanao, the “U.S.” Redcross (which is funded by American tax payers, are in Chechnya (not wise to send our military to the former USSR-remember the cold war?? ) There are peace keeping troops in Somalia, peacekeeping troops in Angola, should I go on????? So I’m sorry to burst YOUR America-only-goes-after-countries-with-oil bubble. So a few Arab countries have some oil in their back yards, whoop-ti-do, there is OIL in America as well. And the U.S. and Canada are the worlds largest consumers of oil, who will they sell their oil to? Clearly it can’t be domestic, since they barely consume any. So while the war in Iraq is truly about oil, don’t assume everything “else” the US is involved in is about just that.

And many Americans, including myself, don’t support that war anyway!

Why don’t you talk about how other ARAB governments benefit off that war, since you like to bring it up. Talk about how the Bin Laden family themselves have millions invested in Bechtel, and how the Saudi Royal family has been investing with the Bush family for decades??? NO you want to turn this into an Americans against the Arabs campaign, when the fact is, it’s the big guys against the little guys. And this may surprise you, but I’m one of the LITTLE guys. Check out Fareinheight 911, you’ll have an eye opening experience.
Like I said before you only created this thread to incite controversy, not to be constructive. I've yet to hear anything 'constructive' come out of your mouth. I’m involved in a more “constructive” discussion on these issues on another forum, this one can die out as far as I’m concerned. I have nothing else to add, and obviously not many other posters here either!