posted
Hi. Can anyone give me some advice on what living in Cairo is like for an expat fiance with a 4 year old daughter? My fiance says it's not allowed because we are not married,and friends of friends have told me not to as there is nothing to do and no other expat wives & kids in Cairo, and the schools are bad. All comments and advice welcome. Thank you.
Posts: 15 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Thanks Penny. My fiance is not Egyptian and neither am I. He lives in an apartment in Mohandessin, near his office, and I get the feeling he doesn't want me to join him, hence negative statements. Have you any comments on what life would be like for me and a 4 year old living if we were to live with him. I have always wanted to visit him to see Cairo for myself and make my own decisions, but as already mentioned, he says it is against the law for me to stay with him if I do visit. All advice very welcome, and many thanks.
quote:Originally posted by Penny: You need to make your question a little more clear.... is the fiance Egyptian or foreigner as the answer will be very different.
With regard to schools if you can afford private schools then there is no problem.
As for there being nothing to do, I am staggered that anyone would say this about Cairo.
posted
unfortunately it's different rules for foreigners vs egyptians.
it's against the law if he or you is egyptian.
for example, you would be asked to produce a marriage certificate as proof when checking into a hotel (women don't take on their husband's surname here when they marry).
but if you're a tourist couple visiting egypt...no one even thinks to ask for such a thing.
there's absolutely no problem living with him except that everyone would assume you two are married and you should definitely say that you are.
if you're not planning to work, there's lots of clubs you can join and meet other expat moms with kids. tons of things to do in cairo.
your fiance is an "expat" so he is there for work reasons.
He is right when he tells you that as long as you are not married you can't come over there.
Because if you are married you also have entitlements like the rent of your fiance might be increasing, he might get a raise for cost of living or something similar (because you are consisting of a family with three members then), you and your child will have medical benefits and also if your child wants to join preschool or school the company of your fiance will usually pay for it. Foreign schools are available and have excellent reputations.
I might not have the facts straight (but I know from military personnel sent overseas) but you definitely do better financially and secured as a married couple.
About life in Cairo: It is great, if you are there you will meet many foreign families who are currently living there. Many things to do. You and your child will definitely not get bored.
Your fiance might not like Egypt - frankly speaking its not everyones taste - and he fears that you and your daughter would be unhappy over there. Talk to him again about his concerns.
I believe he at least should invite both of you to see what its like to live in Cairo.
Oh, I just read your reply. You do NOT anything illegal by visiting him. I also get the feeling that he doesn't like the idea of seeing you there. Again, talk to him, please.
Good luck!
[This message has been edited by Tigerlily (edited 30 September 2004).]
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
IT certainly depends WHERE does he live in Cairo...makes a great difference.. If he lives in one of the very unprivileged sectors ..well he may be telling you the truth... Ask him about WHERE is the HOLE he is talking about, and we can tell you more... Another thing...you can live with your fiance as husband and wife in Egypt.it is a fact... Those Quickies/ ORFI weird papers for one night stands or some other business and temporarily sexually related purposes.. are not asked to be shown when a couple is Non Egyptian... Tell us more... You can also visit us at http://www.youregypt.com for more opinions if you wish...a lot of members are Egyptians there and would love to inform you more on Egypt.... Salam...
quote:Originally posted by Dulis: Hi. Can anyone give me some advice on what living in Cairo is like for an expat fiance with a 4 year old daughter? My fiance says it's not allowed because we are not married,and friends of friends have told me not to as there is nothing to do and no other expat wives & kids in Cairo, and the schools are bad. All comments and advice welcome. Thank you.
[This message has been edited by Monica_Masreya_Awy (edited 30 September 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by Monica_Masreya_Awy: IT certainly depends WHERE does he live in Cairo...makes a great difference.. If he lives in one of the very unprivileged sectors ..well he may be telling you the truth... Ask him about WHERE is the HOLE he is talking about, and we can tell you more... Another thing...you can live with your fiance as husband and wife in Egypt.it is a fact... Those Quickies/ ORFI weird papers for one night stands or some other business and temporarily sexually related purposes.. are not asked to be shown when a couple is Non Egyptian... Tell us more... You can also visit us at http://www.youregypt.com for more opinions if you wish...a lot of members are Egyptians there and would love to inform you more on Egypt.... Salam...
monica she wrote that he lives in mohandessin, minutes from his office and there's bldg security. hardly a "hole"
he was probably told this is the law as he's a single expat guy by someone who thought he might try to bring in egyptian girls into his flat for the night. which...can still be done, but discreetly.
most likely, this security people you're talking about are appointed to someone in govt who lives in his bldg and they require that they have all tenants' names (so they know who does and doesn't belong there).
i know of a similar situation and they make a fuss of letting the delivery people upstairs and if you have egyptians visiting, they'll call up and verify they're your guests before letting them through. pain in the butt.
posted
In simple answer to your question Dulis there is no reason on the Egyptian front for you not to visit and stay with your fiance. It will just be better if you say you are married but nobody is going to check as you are both foriegners. It does sound like he does not want you to visit for some reason so like Tigerlily said talk to him to understand why.
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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Thank you for all the replies & very informative and useful comments. Further queries below:
Please can someone tell me how to post a reply without repeating the quote.
From what I understand from between the lines with my fiance is that he is worried I will get bored and lonely if I am confined to a flat in Cairo with just a four year old, since he works all hours and all weekends (not in his contract - workaholic), and if I am bored I will take him away from work. He says the traffic is very bad - takes hours to get anywhere, and the taxi drivers don't speak English so you can't direct them. He says Egypt is not geared up for foreigners (Brits, in our case, so we are even linguistically-challenged!), except as tourists to the antiquities, who all tend to be unaccompanied by children, and the hotels where one could visit to swim etc are seriously expensive.
He also says the air pollution is very bad and since the vehicles still use leaded petrol, there is a lead health hazard for the child.
What sort of clubs are there, and how does one find out about them/find them/meet the people? What do most families do to enjoy themselves, meet others similar etc?
With regard to visiting & staying with him, my fiance says the problem is the doormen at the entrance to the flats, and possibly his landlord who lives immediately above him (and watches very blue movies, indidentally!).
If I came up for a visit, where should I head for to meet well- informed and friendly people/potential friends - who can speak any language as long as they can speak English!
Thanks in advance for replies.
quote:Originally posted by Dulis: Hi. Can anyone give me some advice on what living in Cairo is like for an expat fiance with a 4 year old daughter? My fiance says it's not allowed because we are not married,and friends of friends have told me not to as there is nothing to do and no other expat wives & kids in Cairo, and the schools are bad. All comments and advice welcome. Thank you.
posted
i know lots of single females and some foreigners with kids and there's a lot more social activity than in the UK in my opinion. because egypt is very family oriented, and because foreigners don't have their extended families around them...you end up forming pretty close ties with other expat friends and they become your surrogate family. in egypt, you not only talk to your neighbors, they know everybody you know and what you had for breakfast before you even walked out the door.
yes the taxis don't speak english and sure it will be a bit of a pain until you make your way around the first few times but once you know where you're going, you just need to say the address, then know a few arabic words like left, right,straight, stop here please to get anywhere in cairo. try THAT with a London black cab, LOL.
if mobility is a problem, you can always buy a car and a hire a full time driver to be at youw whim -driver's salary will be minimal. under LE1000- probably about LE500-700 though that's a wild estimate as last time i checked around was before the pound went up.
there's lots of clubs, like in zamalek the el gezeera club is full of egyptian families just socializing and the kids playing. if you go to the sakara club past the pyramids (about 20-40 min on weekends from mohandessin depending on traffic/time of day)...you can spend the day at the pool with basically low-key french and UK expats. weekdays, it's all just mums and their kids. they even have horse stables if you get bored.
there's also lots of expat families living in maadi (about 20-40 minutes from your fiance's) and more of the expat singles/embassy staff in zamalek (5 minutes from you)
as far as your fiance. hm! a bowab is a doorman. it's not the police and sorry, but he dictates the terms to the bowab - not the other way around.
simply - you are his wife.
if the owner asks, you are his wife.
if he's never mentioned you before to him or he said he's single... say you just got married last week. say you are very very private. say whatever - you're foreigners so the landlord will just assume you're a bit strange.
the stuff about the landlord watching his every move?
sorry, but ALL NEIGHBORS in egypt do this. it's just that many are very discreet about it. My landlord completely minded his business, even though I was in a long-term relationship with an egyptian at the time of my rental. That said, he still knew everyone who ever set foot in my flat, and even knew the colors of the cars that came to pick me up; while we didn't have a bowab, the next door neighbors' bowab took care to know my business and knew my company drivers' by recognition (and the drivers would pick me/drop me up max once every 2 months to drive me to the airport!).
Hope that gives you an indication of the intimite level of egyptian living LOL
Perhaps your fiance is still just adjusting to the culture shock.
I say...embrace it and help him love Cairo. It's a city you either hate or love, but if you're on your own with your girl....you will have lots of time to do lots of fun stuff he doesn't get to!
And egyptians LOOOOOVE kids. Your child will be spoiled rotten by every stranger on the street.
quote:Originally posted by Dulis: From what I understand from between the lines with my fiance is that he is worried I will get bored and lonely if I am confined to a flat in Cairo with just a four year old, since he works all hours and all weekends (not in his contract - workaholic), and if I am bored I will take him away from work.
quote:My fiance has been quite badly hurt (wheel chair/bed) catching someone falling off a roof (hence deciding to get advice on visiting him - I just believed what he said since March 2003), so he wouldn't be able to look after kid by himself.
I was trying to understand this situation, but these two statements don't seem to go together!
[This message has been edited by newcomer (edited 01 October 2004).]
posted
dulis.. what about the brutal step and put your heart to rest, if you can financially afford a plane ticket and a week in a hotel..go see by yourself.. From March 2003 until October 2004 he should be ok and adjusted to the life there... Go....then, if you see he was right all along you'll know what to do...and if he was not..Move On Girl... Posts: 6 | From: Cairo, Egypt | Registered: Sep 2004
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Thank you for all the replies & very informative and useful comments. Further queries below:
Please can someone tell me how to post a reply without repeating the quote.
From what I understand from between the lines with my fiance is that he is worried I will get bored and lonely if I am confined to a flat in Cairo with just a four year old, since he works all hours and all weekends (not in his contract - workaholic), and if I am bored I will take him away from work. He says the traffic is very bad - takes hours to get anywhere, and the taxi drivers don't speak English so you can't direct them. He says Egypt is not geared up for foreigners (Brits, in our case, so we are even linguistically-challenged!), except as tourists to the antiquities, who all tend to be unaccompanied by children, and the hotels where one could visit to swim etc are seriously expensive.
He also says the air pollution is very bad and since the vehicles still use leaded petrol, there is a lead health hazard for the child.
What sort of clubs are there, and how does one find out about them/find them/meet the people? What do most families do to enjoy themselves, meet others similar etc?
With regard to visiting & staying with him, my fiance says the problem is the doormen at the entrance to the flats, and possibly his landlord who lives immediately above him (and watches very blue movies, indidentally!).
If I came up for a visit, where should I head for to meet well- informed and friendly people/potential friends - who can speak any language as long as they can speak English!
posted
I'm not quite sure I understand what's going on here...
Born in Egypt, but raised in the states, I have always wanted to return to Egypt or the Mid East as working professional...In my mid twenties now, I have gone back to Egypt on my own accord almost every summer whenever I can break away from work...
There is plenty to do in Cairo, more to do in the area and quite frankly the Middle East puts much of the world to shame...and the great thing is that you mustn't even go to fins this out...much the same way you logged onto this site, I encourage you to do a little more internet browsing...
Check out the Red Sea, Sharm El Sheikh, Marsa Allam...Take a look at how beautiful Alexandria is...venture off to a website on Beirut and its social climate. You will be shocked with the reality that has become the region...and disappointed you didn't take the leap sooner. Where else can you go that brings to your doorstep the best of social, cultrual, historical life than this area...
You have nothing to worry about, especialy in regards to your child...My mother and father are both products of the private schools in Cairo and both lead very happy and affluent lives...one as a lawyer and the other as an engineer.
Your child will grow up with a more cultured perspective of the world, one that I wished existed among the Ivy League pseudo intellects that inhabit New York, that I seem to have surrounded my self with.
In regards to the people and their nature in Egypt, we have a word in Arabic called "mahaba" and another called "amman". I beleview there is no direct translation that captures the meaning of these words in the English language, because the very nature does not exist. It is a way of life, a general peace and love and comfort that people feel in the area that I wish I could verbalize for you now. I know I am romanticizing the region, (much to it being deserved to be), but you'll know what I am talking about when and if you decide to go.
You will be welcomed in Cairo and as foreigners will not have problems explaining your engaged situation. I have gone back with groups as large as 15 Americans, some who had to issue a passport just to go...of the group, some where dating, other were not. Those couples staying in one room had no problem and neither will you.
Good luck in your future endeavors and certainly keep us updated.
posted
Dulis,if niether of you are egyptian you will have no problem staying together.
Cairo is a fantastic place.I have spent nearly 6 months there and am always amazed when I go back.
It is kaotic,dirty,smelly,bustling and loud but I love it.Just like Penny said it gets under your skin.
There is so much to do,the museum, pyramids,zoo,cairo tower,felucca rides(do not talk to the men) walks by the Nile,foods to sample,and you must go to Kann Kkallaly, not spelt right but it is where the largest mosque is in Egypt and the oldest bazaar.Also the citadel is worth a visit.
If you need a driver and car I can put you in touch with an excellent trustworthy man.
Just go and enjoy yourself it will be a fantastic experience for you and your child. Egyptians adore children and they are so welcolming. (I do not know what is wrong with my spelling today).
It is so vibrant you will probablt love it.
Posts: 343 | From: Wiltshire, England | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Thank you all again for your very helpful and encouraging replies.
I am quite an adventurous person: I spent 6 years working in Eritrea and Ethiopia looking for gold (I am a geologist). I am currently living on the south coast of South Africa. I enjoy living in different countries and getting to know the people, and I would like to spend some time in Cairo, but I want to live with my fiance!! The child is his, and he is working in Cairo making money for us (I am making money down here from real estate: there is a big boom going on at present).
All the info I am getting from the members of this forum is very encouraging, especially the info on clubs.
The problem still is accommodation:
I have SMS contact with another guy who works with my fiance. They are friends but not in each others pockets, so the info I get from Steve is info I can trust.
He says, I quote: "Your Cairo contacts don't know. Alex here last year had a female visitor, English. He ended up in court, paid 1000 fine and almost lost his job. Bend rules pay the price."
Also, "Wives no problem. Their visa is related to their husband and obtained by the company so they have identity."
I now have to find out if Jim (my man) will get the company to get me a visa as his fiance. And whether Alex was taken to court by the authorities or the company. I will let you know.
My fiance, Jim, is World’s No 1 Workaholic, which I accept, as I am also the independent type. But it sounds like Cairo could be fun, so I want to visit, and maybe move there when I am finished down here.
We had a near bust-up down here in SA trying to get a hydroponics veggie farm up and running. It was a bad idea from all points of view and I think he is afraid his workaholic will bust us up in Cairo, (which it will if I have to stay there with nothing to do).
Neither of us wants to bust-up, so we are both a bit afraid of getting into a potential bust-up situation, e.g., by living together!! We know we will stay together if we are not together, if that makes any sense. But if we live together, we may not stay together – how crazy can you get? He is 58 and I am 44, so we are both scared of losing one another but we are both strong willed, set in our ways etc so it's difficult to adjust without arguments. WARNING: don't do anything to destroy the trust between you and your first husband/wife because you can never have that trust with someone else, and its so difficult to adjust to a new partner later in life!!
posted
Thank you all again for your very helpful and encouraging replies.
I am quite an adventurous person: I spent 6 years working in Eritrea and Ethiopia looking for gold (I am a geologist). I am currently living on the south coast of South Africa. I enjoy living in different countries and getting to know the people, and I would like to spend some time in Cairo, but I want to live with my fiance!! The child is his, and he is working in Cairo making money for us (I am making money down here from real estate: there is a big boom going on at present).
All the info I am getting from the members of this forum is very encouraging, especially the info on clubs.
The problem still is accommodation:
I have SMS contact with another guy who works with my fiance. They are friends but not in each others pockets, so the info I get from Steve is info I can trust.
He says, I quote: "Your Cairo contacts don't know. Alex here last year had a female visitor, English. He ended up in court, paid 1000 fine and almost lost his job. Bend rules pay the price."
Also, "Wives no problem. Their visa is related to their husband and obtained by the company so they have identity."
I now have to find out if Jim (my man) will get the company to get me a visa as his fiance. And whether Alex was taken to court by the authorities or the company. I will let you know.
My fiance, Jim, is World’s No 1 Workaholic, which I accept, as I am also the independent type. But it sounds like Cairo could be fun, so I want to visit, and maybe move there when I am finished down here.
We had a near bust-up down here in SA trying to get a hydroponics veggie farm up and running. It was a bad idea from all points of view and I think he is afraid his workaholic will bust us up in Cairo, (which it will if I have to stay there with nothing to do).
Neither of us wants to bust-up, so we are both a bit afraid of getting into a potential bust-up situation, e.g., by living together!! We know we will stay together if we are not together, if that makes any sense. But if we live together, we may not stay together – how crazy can you get? He is 58 and I am 44, so we are both scared of losing one another but we are both strong willed, set in our ways etc so it's difficult to adjust without arguments. WARNING: don't do anything to destroy the trust between you and your first husband/wife because you can never have that trust with someone else, and its so difficult to adjust to a new partner later in life!!
posted
WARNING: don't do anything to destroy the trust between you and your first husband/wife because you can never have that trust with someone else, and its so difficult to adjust to a new partner later in life!!
Hi Dulis
Your Warning words ...that's for sure but easily said with hindsight!! But now you are between this rock and a hard place would it not simply just be easier to just get married ???????? ( sorry simplistic solution I know )
Have got to say this problem about two foriegners not being able to live together in Cairo is very intriguing. It is at odds with peoples experiences here...it simply is not true so unless it is a company issue relating to his contract it is very hard to understand.
Keep us posted on what you find out it is really confusing
posted
I have never heard of just a thing as 2 foreigners being taken to court for sleeping under the same roof.
Perhaps they would be either taken to jail or thrown out of the country -- but not taken to court and pay a fine!
It is technically against the law for egyptians to be living together (or sleeping together under the same roof) and I suppose a landlord who would know about it could also run partial risk. But again, that would get you thrown in jail -- not paid a fine.
Egypt is not Saudi Arabia and frankly, I don't believe your friend or your fiance.
I suggest you contact your embassy in Cairo and ask them specifically what the Egyptian laws are regarding this, then what the prevalent attitute is (meaning would anyone really enforce these rules on 2 foreigners based on their experience)
I can't quite figure out the whole deal, including a father who allows his child to be raised in another country and who is discouraging you two from visiting him?
Sorry, but there's just something really, really odd about this whole story -- I'm sure it's just the lack of details which of course you shouldn't post -- it is the internet after all -- but the way it's coming across.. well, something is not right.
If your fiance is truly this concerned, get a hotel and come over anyway. To have lived there for over a year and not have you visit when you're raising his child for him?
There's a lot of workaholics in Cairo who still have time to enjoy a family life and have a few girlfriends on the side. From the tight security you describe at your fiance's flat.... well, I'm begining to think it's tight because the place had a bad reputation when it wasn't. Maybe not your fiance, maybe his coworkers... but I wouldn't be surprised if the English lady was actually a lady of another nationality who happens to get around.
posted
Thank you all again for your very helpful and encouraging replies.
I am quite an adventurous person: I spent 6 years working in Eritrea and Ethiopia looking for gold (I am a geologist). I am currently living on the south coast of South Africa. I enjoy living in different countries and getting to know the people, and I would like to spend some time in Cairo, but I want to live with my fiance!! The child is his, and he is working in Cairo making money for us (I am making money down here from real estate: there is a big boom going on at present).
All the info I am getting from the members of this forum is very encouraging, especially the info on clubs.
The problem still is accommodation:
I have SMS contact with another guy who works with my fiance. They are friends but not in each others pockets, so the info I get from Steve is info I can trust.
He says, I quote: "Your Cairo contacts don't know. Alex here last year had a female visitor, English. He ended up in court, paid 1000 fine and almost lost his job. Bend rules pay the price."
Also, "Wives no problem. Their visa is related to their husband and obtained by the company so they have identity."
I now have to find out if Jim (my man) will get the company to get me a visa as his fiance. And whether Alex was taken to court by the authorities or the company. I will let you know.
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