Now my question: what is the way to follow for a european woman to legally marry a married man in Egypt? We are both aware that our marriage would be legal only in Egypt and perhaps in other muslim countries. We want to marry legally, not just make some papers with the lawyer. I know that if he would be divorced, there would be no problem to get a paper from my embassy which states that they don't object our marriage. But as far as i understand, this paper would be issued by the embassy only if the husband i not already married. My future husband was seeking advice in Egypt and it seems that in our case, the only thing i need is to prove that i'm not married myself. Can anybody advice me how to obtain an official paper which proves my status? Would the situation be changed if i would convert to Islam?
Any of you was or is in the same situation?
I would be very grateful for your opinions/comments..

WHY would you want to do this? This was the first question which came into my mind.

Culture is so much different in Egypt than it is generally in Europe. In many parts in Europe you can already live with someone and this person is still married to someone else.

Egypt functiones so much more different. Egyptians do divorce Egyptians but very rarely. Since they have three children together its an even stronger bond holding them together even if the marriage isn't the best.

So you want to marry your Egyptian boyfriend and become actually his second wife just for the sake to be together? I really can't advise you on legal matters but I believe you should wait until he is finally divorced. HE needs to figure things out, how and if he is really seeking a divorce from his wife and coming up with a good settlement plan for her and his children. Worst case he will never divorce his wife - would you be satisfied in the end? You might be wasting your time, feelings and money on this man.

Don't end up playing the second best, wait. But good luck for whatever you decide on.

quote:

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Originally posted by aleinad:
Hi everybody,
i'm visiting this web site since many months, reading the messages posted here. In a way my question is the same as a lot others already been debated here in detail, but i still seek your advice for my particular situation.
Here is a "short" description of our situation. I'm living in Europe. Me and my future husband know each other since quite a while and we are planning to get married next year in Egypt and settle there. He is Egyptian, already married, has 3 kids. If he would divorce the actual wife, he would not get the custody of the kids as they are too young and he is concerned that that way he would totally loose contact to them and would for the time being have no way to get involved in their education. At the same time, he would be supposed to pay a large sum of money to the wife.
In spite of this complicated situation i have decided to accept to marry him even without him being divorced first, for the sake of the kids. Unlike many stories i read on this discussion board, in our case the situation is known and has been debated by all parties involved. I am in contact to the wife and have a very good relation to the kids. The actual wife confirms that their marriage does not work, but she refuses to divorce without getting the best possible material benefits. At the same time, of course she is concerned about the future of the kids and must be worried that the father may neglect them as soon as he gets involved to another woman. So my relation to her, at least in the beginning was very tensioned, but i'm a woman too and i'm sure that if i was her i would react in the same way, that's why i tried to see the matter from her point of view as well.
Given all these things, we have decided that at least for the time being the only acceptable way to be together and be beside the kids is to live in Egypt. Although i'm a christian, i have no problem with the real teachings of islamic religion, i've studied the matter well and i became to be convinced. Of course i'm aware of the cultural differences but i'm convinced i can live in Egypt without having big problems to adapt.

Now my question: what is the way to follow for a european woman to legally marry a married man in Egypt? We are both aware that our marriage would be legal only in Egypt and perhaps in other muslim countries. We want to marry legally, not just make some papers with the lawyer. I know that if he would be divorced, there would be no problem to get a paper from my embassy which states that they don't object our marriage. But as far as i understand, this paper would be issued by the embassy only if the husband i not already married. My future husband was seeking advice in Egypt and it seems that in our case, the only thing i need is to prove that i'm not married myself. Can anybody advice me how to obtain an official paper which proves my status? Would the situation be changed if i would convert to Islam?
Any of you was or is in the same situation?
I would be very grateful for your opinions/comments..

Greetings

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quote:

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Originally posted by antivillain:
it's rare to see that level of immorality in a woman.

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???????????????
immoral to be a second wife???????

quote:

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Originally posted by Ayisha:

???????????????
immoral to be a second wife???????

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it is not immoral to be a second wife and ONLY wife given there is a divorce between the husband and his first wife. I do not care what Islam says and how it justifies it, it is immoral to have two wives at the same time, not even to mention up to 4. I do not see how either woman agrees to such proposition: first or potential second wife in this or other situations.

quote:

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Originally posted by Ayisha:

???????????????
immoral to be a second wife???????

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Yes, in my opinion it is very "immoral" to date a married man, it's adulterous.
Especially when you are not muslim nor part of the culture. And none of the reasons
she gave for wanting to marry him are islamic, they are all OPPORTUNISTIC. Would she date a married man in her own country? You have to wonder.

Foreign women can't just go around dating married men and try to justify to themselves, that just because something is legal to do in another country, makes it religiously moral.

It's legal to have sex before marriage in the West, but is it moral? Of course not. That's the point.

The Quran gives specific guidelines to muslims under which they should take another
wife, and NONE of them are: "because I'm not happy with my current wife."

She has alread proclaimed that she is not a muslim, and even had the audacity to
ask should she become a muslim first. It sounds too pretentious-adopting a religion
for the sole purpose to fulfil your own selfish desire to be with a married man.

And then she claims that the wife refuses to divorce him without getting "the
best possible material benefits" shows how little she knows of the culture,
because she has full right to all the material benefits due to her if she
chooses to divorce him on the ground of him taking a second wife! It's not a
matter of negotiation, its a matter of right.

4:20
But if ye decide to take one wife in place of another, even if ye had given
the latter a whole treasure for dower, Take not the least bit of it back:
Would ye take it by slander and manifest wrong?

quote:

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Originally posted by katrina:
it is not immoral to be a second wife given there is a divorce between the husband and his first wife. I do not care what Islam says and how it justifies it, it is immoral to have two wives at the same time, not even to mention up to 4. I do not see how either woman agrees to such proposition: first or potential second wife in this or other situations.

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What are the standards by which we decide what's moral and what's Immoral? and does morality change with time and culture etc?

how can someone call themselves a christian and not have a problem with the real teachings of islam? i mean there are some points which are just irreconcilable. either you believe god really talked through mohammed or not. either you believe jesus was the son of god or not. either you believe in original sin or not. either you believe jesus died on the cross or not. etc.

Moral relativity leads to prejudices towards a society or culture different from your own. For instance, it moral relativity from a western view point considers it immoral for a group of "terrorist" to blow up the WTC, but considers it patriotic for the strongest military in the world to blow up a school building, even if not purposely.

Therefore, "terrorist" acts of one group are heroic acts of another.

On the other hand, absolute morality, is that one should not kill another. So in this case all parties are guilty of immorality.

But I would say moral and ethics are given to one by tradition, culture, and religion. And if one comes from a culture that teaches you that if you involve yourself in a relationship with a married man this is an immoral act, then I would say the person from that culture is immoral. In this case, she says she's a Christian, don't use the term too lightly, as a strong Christian doesn't go around changing their religion to suit the situation they find themselves in.

If you're in love with another woman's husband and this is the only reason you want to adopt a religion that allows this, then you are exhibiting unethical behavior as well as immoral.

But none of us are in a position to judge your actions, but opinions are different from judgements, for judgements are based on final rulings, opinions are indefinite. There is never a wrong or right when opinions are concerned.

quote:

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Originally posted by antivillain:
ahhhh, moral relativism!
the clintonesque view of life.
however you want to cut it, this lady is immoral!
actually, i'm starting to think the poster is a fraud. it's probably that ahmed guy who's been posting about british women's morals here lately.

how can someone call themselves a christian and not have a problem with the real teachings of islam? i mean there are some points which are just irreconcilable. either you believe god really talked through mohammed or not. either you believe jesus was the son of god or not. either you believe in original sin or not. either you believe jesus died on the cross or not. etc.

[This message has been edited by antivillain (edited 25 October 2004).]

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Speaking about Christianity ,Polygamy was very common between early Christians.

quote:

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Originally posted by katrina:
it is not immoral to be a second wife given there is a divorce between the husband and his first wife. I do not care what Islam says and how it justifies it, it is immoral to have two wives at the same time, not even to mention up to 4. I do not see how either woman agrees to such proposition: first or potential second wife in this or other situations.

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Kat I agree entirely with what you say but more importantly this is also the same view of modern Egyptian men that I speak to. Times have changed and divorce in Egypt no longer has the same sitigma that it used to, it is no different to the West. In Fact Islam alows divorce once all attempts at reconciliation have been made, whereas christianity does not.

Aleinad there was a very full discussion recently on the marriage laws in :-EgyptTopic: Legal Marriage... Pls help!
This should tell you all you need to know.

quote:

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Originally posted by Troubles101:
What are the standards by which we decide what's moral and what's Immoral? and does morality change with time and culture etc?

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stds of morality do evolve over time as different societies go through their economic/political/socio-cultural transformation historically as anything else in nature.

HOWEVER, I'd prefer to think in absolute terms (not in relative terms) for certain values and standards which must prevail regardless of time and cultural norms and experiences of different nations. These values are common: do not kill, do not steal, do not lie, treat others as as you want to be treated by others, including do not cheat and do not commit adultery, etc...Before you tell me that this is a recitation of 10 commendments, let me assure you that I am agnostic by nature, and this list for me is what I believe not because God says so, but because I believe myself regardless if God exists or it is a myth and people are all worshiping non-existent thing just like people did back in pegan days.

In short, there are basic norms that remain constant regardless of time and place. Others are up to an individual

quote:

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Originally posted by Penny:
Kat I agree entirely with what you say but more importantly this is also the same view of modern Egyptian men that I speak to. Times have changed and divorce in Egypt no longer has the same sitigma that it used to, it is no different to the West. In Fact Islam alows divorce once all attempts at reconciliation have been made, whereas christianity does not.

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Thanks Penny. thanks also for giving a perspective of people from Egypt.

In general (of course, not addressed to you Penny ), I personally do not approve and do not understand how women can accept relationships with married men for the following reasons:

1. When women enter these relationships, do they think how they hurt wives and their children just for the heck of it in a relationship that maybe simply a fling?

2. How does it feel to be a secret as for sure married men who have affairs keep their mistresses in secret from every possible aspect in their lives (family, work, friends (who can be collaborators, I suppose)? Doesn't it feel humiliating and insulting enough to reject a possibility of being an affair ever in a life of any man?

3. How do these women face themselves every day? Do women stop to think about their choices and actions in life, impact on others and first of all their own code of behaviour and rules that govern their actions? Once one crosses a certain bar and lose something in herself, it is so much harder to pick it up

4. How does it feel to have an uncertain position and a possibility of being told:"Sorry, I have a wife and children. I had a good time. Bye". Well, good thing if it is actually being told. Would not one feel used/abused/played with grossly?

5. I also do not understand the first wife's position. How can she be in this relationship and accept marriage to two adn not to agree to a divorce and accept staying in this relationship based on financial situation?

For this man creature.. tough. You want to marry again, then suck it up, pay whatever it takes to the first wife if he truly loves the other, it is a cost of his decision, otherwise, he wants to have a cake and eat it. Look how convenient. on the other hand, the first wife is quite a rational woman, i'd say, but I DO NOT RESPECT her either even if her primary concern is well-being of kids. I would respected her if she valued herself more than money and said to her husband: "hell with you, go with the wind, I am strong on my own to face life and children do not need a cheating father"... I would work whatever it takes to provide for the kids, and have his father pay for their future and thus take responsibility for his children through enforcing contracts or taking him to court, but I would have never had them raised with a cheat father. It is not good for a boy to see such a role model (worst thing that could happen is for the son to repeat the same path as his father did adn think it is ok and acceptable) and for a girl to grow up insecure and not knwoing what a good man could be. This is a worse consequence in thsi situaiton than a feeling of a betrayl by one's husband and being left alone and behind, etc etc. This type of protection of children, their attitudes, values, life views, code of behaviour are more important than their financial well-being. Life takes and life gives. It never takes away everything. Let father see and visit kids regularly and let them judge for themselves who was right and wrong.

[Now I will be given a lecture on social class structure of Egypt, financial marriage agreements, and how what divorce is viewed and how reputation (supposedly "saving dignity" by remaining married and allowing your husband to marry another, which in my view is humiliation not dignity) -- all this is so culturally suffocating to me- NOt willing to listen to it , yet I am aware of such things as I read and heard Egyptians speak about that in real life and on boards. My message is "IT IS ABOUT TIME TO CHANGE" as such attitudes are nothing to be proud of ] I am glad to hear Penny, that many people do not think this way in Egypt.

I am not even talking about men as I never respected one man who had an affair and never will. If he has guts to face the woman he gave vowes to before, perhaps he may earn some browny points, but the act of deceipt and lies before that - no excuse; it is irrecoverable. I may view life as black or white, but there are certain things I would personally not compromise and would not treat such issues as marriage in relative terms

quote:

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Originally posted by katrina:
Thanks Penny. thanks also for giving a perspective of people from Egypt.

In general (of course, not addressed to you Penny ), I personally do not approve and do not understand how women can accept relationships with married men for the following reasons:

1. When women enter these relationships, do they think how they hurt wives and their children just for the heck of it in a relationship that maybe simply a fling?

2. How does it feel to be a secret as for sure married men who have affairs keep their mistresses in secret from every possible aspect in their lives (family, work, friends (who can be collaborators, I suppose)? Doesn't it feel humiliating and insulting enough to reject a possibility of being an affair ever in a life of any man?

3. How do these women face themselves every day? Do women stop to think about their choices and actions in life, impact on others and first of all their own code of behaviour and rules that govern their actions? Once one crosses a certain bar and lose something in herself, it is so much harder to pick it up

4. How does it feel to have an uncertain position and a possibility of being told:"Sorry, I have a wife and children. I had a good time. Bye". Well, good thing if it is actually being told. Would not one feel used/abused/played with grossly?

5. I also do not understand the first wife's position. How can she be in this relationship and accept marriage to two adn not to agree to a divorce and accept staying in this relationship based on financial situation?

For this man creature.. tough. You want to marry again, then suck it up, pay whatever it takes to the first wife if he truly loves the other, it is a cost of his decision, otherwise, he wants to have a cake and eat it. Look how convenient. on the other hand, the first wife is quite a rational woman, i'd say, but I DO NOT RESPECT her either even if her primary concern is well-being of kids. I would respected her if she valued herself more than money and said to her husband: "hell with you, go with the wind, I am strong on my own to face life and children do not need a cheating father"... I would work whatever it takes to provide for the kids, and have his father pay for their future and thus take responsibility for his children through enforcing contracts or taking him to court, but I would have never had them raised with a cheat father. It is not good for a boy to see such a role model (worst thing that could happen is for the son to repeat the same path as his father did adn think it is ok and acceptable) and for a girl to grow up insecure and not knwoing what a good man could be. This is a worse consequence in thsi situaiton than a feeling of a betrayl by one's husband and being left alone and behind, etc etc. This type of protection of children, their attitudes, values, life views, code of behaviour are more important than their financial well-being. Life takes and life gives. It never takes away everything. Let father see and visit kids regularly and let them judge for themselves who was right and wrong.

[Now I will be given a lecture on social class structure of Egypt, financial marriage agreements, and how what divorce is viewed and how reputation (supposedly "saving dignity" by remaining married and allowing your husband to marry another, which in my view is humiliation not dignity) -- all this is so culturally suffocating to me- NOt willing to listen to it , yet I am aware of such things as I read and heard Egyptians speak about that in real life and on boards. My message is "IT IS ABOUT TIME TO CHANGE" as such attitudes are nothing to be proud of ] I am glad to hear Penny, that many people do not think this way in Egypt.

I am not even talking about men as I never respected one man who had an affair and never will. If he has guts to face the woman he gave vowes to before, perhaps he may earn some browny points, but the act of deceipt and lies before that - no excuse; it is irrecoverable. I may view life as black or white, but there are certain things I would personally not compromise and would not treat such issues as marriage in relative terms

[This message has been edited by katrina (edited 25 October 2004).]

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Wow Katrina, you said a mouthful and it sounds like it came from the 'heart' and 'head'. I have the upmost respect for any woman or man with morals and dignity.

I don't like to see a woman carrying herself like a whore anymore than I like seeing a man carrying himself like a dog.

Thats what happens quite often in Egypt, women go their and lose their moral values, and money may buy them the illusion of love, but once the money runs out, your dignity is hard to recoup.

We do have to maintain our morals wherever we go, and not change them to fit the situation. If you wouldn't date a married man in your own country, don't travel half way across the world to do it! There is a difference between respect and adapting, and you can surely respect ones culture without adapting to it.

And its true Egyptians are not practicing polygamy to a large extent anymore. In fact several Arab countries have completely banned it.

quote:

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Originally posted by katrina:
stds of morality do evolve over time as different societies go through their economic/political/socio-cultural transformation historically as anything else in nature.

HOWEVER, I'd prefer to think in absolute terms (not in relative terms) for certain values and standards which must prevail regardless of time and cultural norms and experiences of different nations. These values are common: do not kill, do not steal, do not lie, treat others as as you want to be treated by others, including do not cheat and do not commit adultery, etc...Before you tell me that this is a recitation of 10 commendments, let me assure you that I am agnostic by nature, and this list for me is what I believe not because God says so, but because I believe myself regardless if God exists or it is a myth and people are all worshiping non-existent thing just like people did back in pegan days.

In short, there are basic norms that remain constant regardless of time and place. Others are up to an individual

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I have to say I'm fascinated by your beliefs of the existence of absolute moral values while not believing in God. For be both are very connected. Absolute moral values exist therefore God exists else what would be the basis of our objective moral values and what is the basis for the value of the human beings? What makes certain actions right or wrong for us? What or who imposes moral duties upon us? Why is it that we ought to do certain things and ought not to do other things? Where does this 'ought' come from? If God does not exist nothing special about human beings and they are accidental products of nature then our morals are nothing but biological and social evolution. Nothing is absolute. So it's amazing to me that you are the one calling for absolute standards of morals. Usually Atheists and agnostics believe in absolute relativism and that morals are products of Human beings experience and an aid of survival etc…

Anyway to stick to our subject about Polygamy, and since you and I believe that some morals are absolute while others are relative with time and culture. my question is was the definition of marriage or " what is adultery " an absolute definition through history of human beings? Was not polygamy considered as marriage and still by many societies and many people through history including those who are agnostics, atheists. And theists? Take for example the quote I posted for Augustine.

Let's remember one thing. Those who believe in polygamy are not necessary people who have no problems with humiliating others or damaging a family. They are no different than those who adhere to monogamous marriage in this however the conflict arise in our understanding of the good and bad about it

Just like the conflict about abortion, man people in both sides oppose the idea of murdering any innocent life but their disagreement lies in the definition of this tissue being called human life or just a tissue.

1. When women enter these relationships, do they think how they hurt wives and their children just for the heck of it in a relationship that maybe simply a fling?

This depends on the family and society understanding of Polygamy. Take for example the Arab society before Islam where all people of all races and religions and no religions practiced it. People didn't have those questions in mind because it was the norm. In fact many women found honor in marrying a married man rather than single man. They even wrote poetry describing about it.In such a society none or very few would think the way you are thinking now. And I'm sure if we have TWO KatrinaS, you and one coming from those societies we would be watching both of you fighting over it here

2. How does it feel to be a secret as for sure married men who have affairs keep their mistresses in secret from every possible aspect in their lives (family, work, friends (who can be collaborators, I suppose)? Doesn't it feel humiliating and insulting enough to reject a possibility of being an affair ever in a life of any man?

Again you are imposing our cultural morals on others. If we are in a society where polygamy is the norm then none will hide it or feel ashamed of it. It's only recently that most people find it shameful and disgusting, who knows what will happen in the future?

Even Islamicaly speaking secret relationships are forbidden.

4. How does it feel to have an uncertain position and a possibility of being told:"Sorry, I have a wife and children. I had a good time. Bye". Well, good thing if it is actually being told. Would not one feel used/abused/played with grossly?

The same feeling woman would feel if her only husband tell her something similar " I knew another woman and got children from her,goodbye" which is even worse.

5. I also do not understand the first wife's position. How can she be in this relationship and accept marriage to two adn not to agree to a divorce and accept staying in this relationship based on financial situation?

What makes you assume that it has to be financial situation that force woman into it? Never heared about women asking their own husbands to marry another woman and even looking by their ownselves for a second wife for their husband without the husband even mentioning it? It's not always about man getting bored of his wife and looking for young girl for pleasure. Sometimes Man marry a second wife who is old and take care of her in the family by the approval of his first wife who finds it as a good sacrifice by both husband and wife. People in history during wars when many men died and those societies were very small and organizations were not their to help widowed and their orphans. Men in those circumstances married them as second wives to take care of those families and it was not seen as a sick disgusting attitude by women or by societies but rather a good way for helping the whole society .

Time change and so much of our customs and the future Katrina may question a lot of what the present Katrina did.

Anyway, I myself wouldn't go for polygamous marriage .I can hardly handle one woman .However it's always up to society and individuals to choose what's good for themselves and the society should make sure it's in favor of the whole people. Islam and other religions didn't propagate or prohibits it .so it's up to the society whether to ban or accept it.

quote:

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Originally posted by Flupke:
Hi, I'm sorry to ask you like this, but can I contact you in private? I would like to talk to you but not on the board... Can I have your e mail? That would be very nice, thank you very much and best regards, another girl from europe.

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Hi Flupke, my e-mail is aleinad100@hotmail.com,
i'll be glad to talk to you if you like.
Take care..

quote:

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Originally posted by aleinad:
since, as one of you said here, there is no way for a foreigner to marry in Egypt a married man other than orfi, and that's surely not my choice. Asking if i could solve the problem by officially becoming a muslim i actually asked: "Is there any legal way for a muslim who's not a national of a muslim country to marry in Egypt a man already legally married?"

I would rather agree that their mother stays married to my husband just on paper (which in fact already is the case), than taking their father away from them and deprive them of any decent support, which would definitely happen if they are left alone with the mother. .
Thanks so much to you all!

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There is no difference between a foreigner and an Egyptian as far as being able to have a legal marriage in Egypt as a 2nd, 3rd or 4th spouse. The difference is that most foreigners come from UK/US/Europe where polygamous marriages are not legal. Therefore your marriage would be legal only in countries that legally recognize polygamous marriages. In Egypt, you would be married in the eyes of the law, in Europe, you would be single in the eyes of the law and only married in the eyes of muslim religion.

Why would his children be deprived of decent support if he got a divorce? He's the one who needs to be paying their support regardless whether he is married or not to his first wife.

Also, how old are the children? After a certain age (something like 8-10 yrs) he automatically gets custody - NOT his wife. He can even take her to court now to get custody now and has a very good chance of winning. It's the opposite of Europe.

As far as the money, well that's the delayed mahr that he signed in his marriage contract when he married his first wife. If he can't afford to pay that, how is he going to afford YOU and financially support a 2nd household? If he's giving you Egyptian justifications for this, then you need to think and expect to be treated as an Egyptian wife. A stereotypical Egyptian wife would not think in terms of "we" when it came to who supported the household financially. It would be "him". So if he can't afford to divorce his first wife, how is he going to afford to buy you a flat to live in, how is he going to manage financing 2 households, and what kind of mahr is he going to give you?

Granted, you may not care about any of that but if you want to become a 2nd wife, you should perhaps weigh your options as one.

First at all, will you excuse my english.
I would like to introduce myself. My name is Florence, I live in France and I'm 35 years old.

I come back from a journey in Egypt and over there, I met a man, a Christian egyptien with which I fell in love. A real love at first sight! But... He's married and he's got a little kid. The same situation except that he's christian.

I doesn't know his family. And they don't know me too. Our history is a secret and it's so difficult, for him and for me. I don't know what I must doing and if I'll see him in a couple of month. We are so many difficulties to communicate, same by phone by report his all family.

So I understand your problem and if you want, I would like to talk about that by e-mail with you. I hope that we will be able to help ourselves mutually. Because
to speak often made good. So, I'm waiting some indications about you.

quote:

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Originally posted by Flo:
Hello Aleinad

First at all, will you excuse my english.
I would like to introduce myself. My name is Florence, I live in France and I'm 35 years old.

I come back from a journey in Egypt and over there, I met a man, a Christian egyptien with which I fell in love. A real love at first sight! But... He's married and he's got a little kid. The same situation except that he's christian.

I doesn't know his family. And they don't know me too. Our history is a secret and it's so difficult, for him and for me. I don't know what I must doing and if I'll see him in a couple of month. We are so many difficulties to communicate, same by phone by report his all family.

So I understand your problem and if you want, I would like to talk about that by e-mail with you. I hope that we will be able to help ourselves mutually. Because
to speak often made good. So, I'm waiting some indications about you.

I wish you much courage and knows that I am of any heart with you.
Very best regards,
Flo

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How can you think that being with a married is a problem.

It is not a problem you should not be in this relationship. These men are cheats and liars.

They have wives and children and your actions of encouraging these men will have far reaching affects.

To be in a marriage to a man and find out he has been unfaithfull makes your whole married life look foolish.

If these men can be unfaithful to their wives they will do it to you, they have no principles and no scruples.

Fair enough if your marriage is over, move on, but do not betray the person you marry.

I understand what do you mean. But it's difficult, now, to place this situation in an real context. I don't want to break his family. I think that if he cames towards me it is that it is not happy in household.

I do not seek to separate it from his wife. I want right knowledge if it is sincere with me.

I believe deeply in the destiny. If it is intended to me, it will come towards me. In the contrary case, we will have lived a beautiful bracket and I wish him bottom of my heart to be happy with his family.

I am somebody of honest. In a history, it is necessary to be two. To in no case I did not force it to come towards me. Then a thunderbolt is not explained. The love is not explained, it was seen.

All that I know, it is that we are really appreciated and certainly loved. I am unmarried and if we are made one for the other, we will find ourselves.

Do you really think that all should be put the egyptiens in the same basket? I rely on what he said to me and especially, I read in these eyes of sincerity. Can be are right you, but I will regret not ensure me...

In France, we say that it is to have remorses better that regrets... Because to regret, it is to suffer even more.

The future will give me reason or twists... In all the cases, I will not do anything more than I do not make already.

In all the cases, thank you for your councils and your warnings. I pay attention to me all the same because I do not want to collect me once again.

Then, as you write it so well, if all the Christians of the world respected these principles, there would be less divorce! What is not the case.

Do you believe that it is more moral to remain with a person than one does not love and than one misleads easily???

quote:

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Originally posted by Flo:
Your reaction and your comments are wounding. I remind to you simply that in a history it is necessary to be two!!!! And it is him which came to seek me, not the opposite!!!

Then, as you write it so well, if all the Christians of the world respected these principles, there would be less divorce! What is not the case.

Do you believe that it is more moral to remain with a person than one does not love and than one misleads easily???

I find, finally, that it is easy to judge a situation without really knowing the history of it. Never forget that the first precept of the "Christian" is the tolerance...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Penny:
Sorry but the truth often hurts. A christian does not have to tolerate the sins of those that lead their lives in an immoral way hurting innocent parties as a result. It is too easy to justify such actions with words such as love, people must be two....It is none of these things ...it is lust...so stop fooling yourself and trying to justify your situation.

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Penny,

To in no case I consider that I carry out my life in an immoral way. I do not seek to justify my acts or my words under cover of the love.

I am 35 years old and I already passed by many tests I knew the joy, happiness but also sadness to lose somebody whom I loved for another. I never judged his behavior, because he happiness is as important as mine.

Remember the bible and remember you that Jesus himself with forgiven to a woman... If you believe in a God, you must know that he knows our thoughts. He does not judge us on our acts... They are the men who do that.

To choose, I would have preferred that it is unmarried and free. We have each one a destiny, things to be learned from our experiments and life. I do not do anything evil... Then, me judges not with Christian principles which result from the men and not from god himself!

This man if he is not happy with his wife should not be in his marriage, you are a bit on the side.He will regret ever becoming involved with you.

He is looking for excitement in his evryday humdrum life.

When the excitement wears off he will go back to where he is safe and secure.

We all realise that marriage after many years needs a kick start,but having a fling to generate excitemnet in your marriage, is one of the cruelest actions a husband or wife can participate in.

quote:

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Originally posted by Penny:
Flo

You have a stange view of christianity and what god asks of us in life....
Whether your book is the bible or the koran..then god gave us rules to live our lives by...if you choose to go against these rules...then you do not live according to gods word and be sure he will judge you. The only person that can judge is god not man.
If you want to live by your so called destiny, fine, but do not confuse this with gods path...god would not send you down an adulterous road. Be you muslim or christian...adultery is one of the worst sins to say nothing of the lies and dishonesty that go hand in hand with it.

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Penny,
I do not look for the way of adultery... I wish deeper of my heart food happy with a man who will be able to marry with me. It is not a question of religion, but simply of correction with respect to oneself.

I do not seek to break a couple. I will respect his choice, whatever it is. For me, morality is there. I think that you did not understand what I try to explain you. I refuse to make somebody unhappy by an act immoral or wounding.

I believe in God. And I know that God is love and tolerance and that it can understand that I can fall in love somebody who is not free. the difference is there.

On the other hand, I do not believe in human justice. That which condemns without seeking to include/understand. I am somebody of honest and respectful. I do not want only one judges me without trying to understand me. It is all.

Your remarks wounded me because I opened my heart with sincerity. I do not think of having done something of evil. The heart with sometimes its reasons which the reason is unaware of.

But above all, I fell in love with a country, a culture, a
civilization, a population which opened the arms without judgement to me.

I hope that you understand that. I know that I am good and I know that my control is not immoral because I know also the limits of what one should not do.

Recall simply that the love is the most beautiful thing that it gave us to divide. And one can like without awaiting return...

quote:

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Originally posted by Ge Ge:
Women like you break marriages.You have no respect for the sanctiment of marriage.

This man if he is not happy with his wife should not be in his marriage, you are a bit on the side.He will regret ever becoming involved with you.

He is looking for excitement in his evryday humdrum life.

When the excitement wears off he will go back to where he is safe and secure.

We all realise that marriage after many years needs a kick start,but having a fling to generate excitemnet in your marriage, is one of the cruelest actions a husband or wife can participate in.

Give him up, he will bring you great saddness.

---

Still a judgement! I am sad of reading that. How can you imagine only one moment that my goal is to break a marriage!

You know neither his history and mine! The debate is not there and it is a pity well. I do not have to be explained on this history nor to try to justify me.

I lived a beautiful history with a sincere and unhappy man. If I could help it in some way that is to be found the way of its happiness, then so much better.

That it is Egyptien is certainly shocking for much among you. I did not come to Egypt to take the husband of a woman. I came to Egypt to discover a country and to like it. I met this man there and one spoke much about our lives, our projects and our respective futures.

Can you only understand that, without putting forth a hard and inappropriate judgement?

Morals has always good back... Be right... It is all that I ask.

If you think the country has not judged you then you are wrong. Egyptian society is very conservative both Christian and Muslim. The community in Egypt would be down on you like a ton of bricks. If you think what has been said to you here hard wait until you are living in Egyptian society and what they will say about you then.

Apart from the adultery I guess you are not a Coptic Christian so any relationship with you is outside his faith. This will bring the disapproval of his parents and the rest of his family.

So you are asking for a society which is deeply conservative to accept you breaking up his marriage, having a relationship outside his faith and a break with his family. What sort of reaction do you think you will get. You wouldn't be able to stay in Egypt.

So now you are asing him to break with his country as well.

Lets look at the list

break with his wife and child
break with his church
break with his parents and family
break with his community
break with his country

Do you truly think that your love will survive all this. Would you want a partner to give up so much. How happy is he going to be in the future.

What about all the people you are hurting, his wife, child, parents, family, friends. Do you think he or you will ever forget that your relationship was founded on so much pain.

quote:

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Originally posted by akshar:
Flo

If you think the country has not judged you then you are wrong. Egyptian society is very conservative both Christian and Muslim. The community in Egypt would be down on you like a ton of bricks. If you think what has been said to you here hard wait until you are living in Egyptian society and what they will say about you then.

Apart from the adultery I guess you are not a Coptic Christian so any relationship with you is outside his faith. This will bring the disapproval of his parents and the rest of his family.

So you are asking for a society which is deeply conservative to accept you breaking up his marriage, having a relationship outside his faith and a break with his family. What sort of reaction do you think you will get. You wouldn't be able to stay in Egypt.

So now you are asing him to break with his country as well.

Lets look at the list

break with his wife and child
break with his church
break with his parents and family
break with his community
break with his country

Do you truly think that your love will survive all this. Would you want a partner to give up so much. How happy is he going to be in the future.

What about all the people you are hurting, his wife, child, parents, family, friends. Do you think he or you will ever forget that your relationship was founded on so much pain.

---

Askshar,

I understand all that. I simply wrote that I had lived
a very beautiful history with him. I am conscious of all that you listed and I do not want that him or its family suffers.

I respect him and I respect the Egyptiennes habits. It is well for that that I do not take action on this history. I could do it but I understood that this relation could not succeed.

What returns to me sad, it is that everyone here considers me badly disposed and thinks that I will break his marriage. It is terrible of reading these cruel words because it is not what I wish.

My goal was to find in Egypt of the answers to the questions that I was posed, here, in France. These is a splendid country which charmed me beyond my hopes.

This man relearned me to like, quite simply. Our ways will not be recrossed can be more, but I think that we mutually helped ourselves to see there a little more clearly in our lives.

Do not bring back all to an adultery. Because this history, it is not that. It is initially a meeting, a friendship which is tied, of the exchanged words.

But especially, it is a mutual help. I wish him to be happy in his country, his community, his family. Because I respect it.

Thank you to have read me. Flo

Flo My French is too out of date to translate this accurately but I will say it for you as an Englishwoman.....

'I want my cake and eat it'.

Meaning I will live my life exactly as I want and also expect everyones blessing.

Well you won't find that here( and no I am not misreading your story) and you most certainly won't find it in Egypt. You need to take time to understand a great deal more of Egyptian society before you will even begin to understand your folly.

I will spare you some pain and tell you how you will be seen by Egyptian society. Well basically just about one step up from a prostitute. I am not trying to be cruel here ...I am just telling you the truth of a country you know little about. Oh and by the way what your boyfriend is doing is an imprisonable offence in Egypt.

Flo I am not trying to hurt you but you are living in fairyland

Egypt is not France and I know there is a more relaxed attitude to extra martial affairs for decades. Egypt is more conservative than you can possible dream or imagine. You may see this as a beautiful relationship but those of us married to Egyptians or living in Egypt have given you the view of Egyptian society.

In fact it is still illegal in Egypt to commit adultery. It is still considered deeply sinful with everything that means. And I am afraid your partner will not have considered it your French way but the Egyptian way. I sorry to bring you back to reality.

You should have never embarked on a relationship with a married man. Whether he is egyptian,french, english whatever, you are commiting adultery and in Egypt you will not be looked on kindly.You will be looked on like a rubbish woman.

How a woman has anything to do with a married man is beyond me.

My husband had an affair.He now realises the affect this has had on the family, friends business.The ripples have far reaching hurt.

He is now the unhappiest man I know. He has lost the respect of everyone he knows. The woman he commited adultery with he has left because he said he could not live with someone who has affected his life so dramatically.

If only we could turn back time how different it would be, I lost the man I thought loved me and as christian as I am I will never forgive him for the hurt he has caused me and my family.

So think before you embark on this relationship,any man who treats marriage and children so flippently is most certainly untrustworthy.

Leave him alone to work out his future with his wife and children.

I am sorry to be so hard, but if you realised the trauma this behaviour causes in a family you would take a different path.

quote:

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Originally posted by Ge Ge:
You say you are not trying to hurt anyone, well let me assure you, you yes you are going to hurt many people.

You should have never embarked on a relationship with a married man. Whether he is egyptian,french, english whatever, you are commiting adultery and in Egypt you will not be looked on kindly.You will be looked on like a rubbish woman.

How a woman has anything to do with a married man is beyond me.

My husband had an affair.He now realises the affect this has had on the family, friends business.The ripples have far reaching hurt.

He is now the unhappiest man I know. He has lost the respect of everyone he knows. The woman he commited adultery with he has left because he said he could not live with someone who has affected his life so dramatically.

If only we could turn back time how different it would be, I lost the man I thought loved me and as christian as I am I will never forgive him for the hurt he has caused me and my family.

So think before you embark on this relationship,any man who treats marriage and children so flippently is most certainly untrustworthy.

Leave him alone to work out his future with his wife and children.

I am sorry to be so hard, but if you realised the trauma this behaviour causes in a family you would take a different path.

---

Ge Ge there is so much pain in what you write and I truly hope this makes Flo stop and think about what she is doing. I will NEVER NEVER understand women who get involved with married men.

I honestly hope one day you can forgive your husband his mistake because I truly believe this would release you from some of the pain and put you in a better situation to move on.
I totally agree with the morals of what you are saying but to hold onto the bitterness is destructive to yourself.

Having a strange Friday if you know what I mean!
Penny

quote:

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Originally posted by Penny:
Ge Ge there is so much pain in what you write and I truly hope this makes Flo stop and think about what she is doing. I will NEVER NEVER understand women who get involved with married men.

I honestly hope one day you can forgive your husband his mistake because I truly believe this would release you from some of the pain and put you in a better situation to move on.
I totally agree with the morals of what you are saying but to hold onto the bitterness is destructive to yourself.

Having a strange Friday if you know what I mean!
Penny

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Can I just point something out here. Everyone is passing judgement on this person and to a point- fair comment. However, no-one is mentioning that the guy is equally, if not more to blame. He is the 1 that let his wife, whom he supposedly cared about if not loved down, and his children. He is commiting the same sin and he is the one who is getting HIS cake and eating it more than either of the other 2. Lets stop letting the men get away with so much whilst giving the women hell, and let them be judged equally!!

quote:

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Originally posted by sue333:
Can I just point something out here. Everyone is passing judgement on this person and to a point- fair comment. However, no-one is mentioning that the guy is equally, if not more to blame. He is the 1 that let his wife, whom he supposedly cared about if not loved down, and his children. He is commiting the same sin and he is the one who is getting HIS cake and eating it more than either of the other 2. Lets stop letting the men get away with so much whilst giving the women hell, and let them be judged equally!!

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Actually Sue we are not judging...we are telling her truthfully what she is doing in WRONG and especially in a conservative and religious society like Egypt. It is wrong anywhere in the world for that matter.

quote:

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Woman have to accept they do have responsibility for their own actions and they are in a position of power to stop this all this pain and hurt that is caused within families the world over. In this situation men ARE the weaker sex...no there is no excuse for him but he is not the one posting here. The day more women start to live by strong moral values is the day they stop selling themselves short...get some self respect..and end all this unnecessary pain in families that just might make it without outside temptations.[/B]

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I understand the points of view of each one. Indeed, I
have a méconaissance relation between the religion and the
Egyptians.

I do not seek to wound any you. Gege, I also suffered from the departure of a man for another woman. I understand that you me want some to have stuck to a married man. As I already explained, I will never seek to break his life.

What I want, it is above all to understand Egypt and to
continue to love this country, without him, obviously.

What I ask you, it is to help itself to include/understand this country and its rules. I am conscious of full with things and ensure you of my good intentions. In any way I do not seek to shock you or wound. What I ask, it is a chance to learn with better knowing you without you judging my acts.

I certainly would have preferred loved a free man, to be able to make my life with. I désèspère not to find one somebody day made for me.

It is true that in France and even in Europe manners are different. Approach of the relations men - women is much freer. What does not want to say that we do not respect the institutions. Simply certain decisions are accepted better.

Then please, once again, do not consider me bad and do not think especially that I did that only with an aim of making suffer a family.

Learn me with better knowing Egypt, its ways of life, its population, its various religions to allow me not to more make errors which would make me twists.

Best regards,
Flo

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ge Ge:
You say you are not trying to hurt anyone, well let me assure you, you yes you are going to hurt many people.

You should have never embarked on a relationship with a married man. Whether he is egyptian,french, english whatever, you are commiting adultery and in Egypt you will not be looked on kindly.You will be looked on like a rubbish woman.

How a woman has anything to do with a married man is beyond me.

My husband had an affair.He now realises the affect this has had on the family, friends business.The ripples have far reaching hurt.

He is now the unhappiest man I know. He has lost the respect of everyone he knows. The woman he commited adultery with he has left because he said he could not live with someone who has affected his life so dramatically.

If only we could turn back time how different it would be, I lost the man I thought loved me and as christian as I am I will never forgive him for the hurt he has caused me and my family.

So think before you embark on this relationship,any man who treats marriage and children so flippently is most certainly untrustworthy.

Leave him alone to work out his future with his wife and children.

I am sorry to be so hard, but if you realised the trauma this behaviour causes in a family you would take a different path.

---

Gege,

You to mix your history and mine. you want me and you
are caught some with me because your husband left with another woman.

I am not responsible and I am really sorry for you. I am not a woman who makes a sport take the husband of the others.

I did not seek to allure it and I knew only after it was married. Will be able to make the share of the things and especially will know that it is not in my nature of making evil only to appease a phantasm.

I hope that you will understand me.

quote:

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Originally posted by Penny:
Dear Flo sorry we made a hard day for you but I think from what you say you want to learn about Egypt and we will always try and help with that even if the truth is very hard to hear. Welcome to ES

Sue 33 No I am not giving a get out route to men or absolve them for any part in their actions but lets be honest men are men and I will be long underground waiting for them to change their ways. Women ARE in a position to live a moral life with self respect and in turn teach the men how to do it.
We also do not have to cope with all that testosterone racing round our bodies

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Thank you Penny.
I think that maintaining the debate is closed. I have a vision much clearer of Egytpienne mentality and especially in the way of approaching it.

Forgive my frankness. I do not have to in no case desired to wound or shock whoever by my remarks. I hope for that now we will be able to speak about this splendid country and that you will help me, all, with better liking it.

If from here a few weeks I always smell myself attracted by this country, I hope there that you will be able to give me some good councils to come to live and work there. Because there is my single goal. To breathe a little this magic, me ennivrer of colors and odors and to sympathize with an enriching and fabulous population.
Such is my only desire.