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I've heard that when getting married in Egypt, it's possible to make some individual additions to the marriage contract. For example, the addition that the women will always be allowed to travel also without the permission of her husband. As I'm considering to get married with an egyptian man in the future, I would like to know if this is true?? And which things can be changed by agreement, only a few or all?? For example, can it be agreed upon that the women will have the same right to divorce from her husband, as the husband will to divorce from her?? I am sorry if this question is very silly, but I'm honestly wondering.
Posts: 271 | From: germany | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by saeeda: I've heard that when getting married in Egypt, it's possible to make some individual additions to the marriage contract. For example, the addition that the women will always be allowed to travel also without the permission of her husband. As I'm considering to get married with an egyptian man in the future, I would like to know if this is true?? And which things can be changed by agreement, only a few or all?? For example, can it be agreed upon that the women will have the same right to divorce from her husband, as the husband will to divorce from her?? I am sorry if this question is very silly, but I'm honestly wondering.
Get advise from an independent lawyer next time you are in Egypt. You might also want to check with your embassy or at least they are able to point you in the right direction. Welcome to ES!
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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akshar, are you sure?? I mean, there must be some problems with the national laws when fundamental things like inheritance matters are touched... also, to give the woman the right to divorce without having to ustify herfels in front of anybody... and what about the kids?? It's hard to believe that it can be legally agreed upon between bridegroom & bride that in case of divorce the kids will, after a certain age, automatically go to the father?
tigerliliy: where to find a competent lawyer for these issues?
egyptian men: would you consider it a trust break if your future wife would like to fix all these things legally?? i'm a bit afraid to talk to him about these issues coz i guess he might misunderstand it and think that i don't trust him... which is not true, but in the same time i am aware that people can change...
The Egyptian law requiring a husband to give his permission for his wife to travel was revoked a few years ago. If you have a non-Egyptian passport it doesn’t matter anyway, but if you want to have an Egyptian passport (which you can get after 2 years if you apply for citizenship) I understand the husband has to be involved in the application, but once you have the passport you can renew it and travel without his permission. The only way he could stop you travelling would be through a court order for a specific reason, agreed to by the court.
Although it is possible to add any clauses to a marriage contract that are agreed to between the couple, if you are a Muslim you should make sure that the clauses are Islamically correct and don’t try to allow something that Islam forbids or vice versa. So you can ask for the same right of divorce as a man, but if you ask for him not to take another wife and he does so later on, this will mean that the contract has been broken and you are automatically divorced. So think carefully if you want add any clauses!
So as Tigerlily said, best to check with a lawyer first.
quote:Originally posted by saeeda: akshar, are you sure?? I mean, there must be some problems with the national laws when fundamental things like inheritance matters are touched... also, to give the woman the right to divorce without having to ustify herfels in front of anybody... and what about the kids?? It's hard to believe that it can be legally agreed upon between bridegroom & bride that in case of divorce the kids will, after a certain age, automatically go to the father?
tigerliliy: where to find a competent lawyer for these issues?
egyptian men: would you consider it a trust break if your future wife would like to fix all these things legally?? i'm a bit afraid to talk to him about these issues coz i guess he might misunderstand it and think that i don't trust him... which is not true, but in the same time i am aware that people can change...
Get in contact with the host of this website, Dr. von der Way. She will definitely try to help you or at least is able to get you in contact with a capable lawyer. Good luck!
[This message has been edited by Tigerlily (edited 29 October 2004).]
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Your countries embassy in egypt will be able to give you all the information you need. However my experience of this is that if you get married by the mazoon at lazoughly square in cairo (This is the only mazoon in Egypt who is legally authorised to marry egyptians to non-egyptians)you can add clauses to the standard marriage contract at the time of marriage as long as they are islamically valid (and therefore legally valid)and your husband tells the mazoon that he agrees to your requests. The kind of things that you can have put in are as follows: 1. The right to travel abroad without your husbands permission. If your husband agrees to this being in the contract he is effectively giving you his permanent permission for you to travel anytime after the marriage without any further reference to him. 2. The right to have paid employment outside the home. Again if your husband agrees to this he is giving permanent permission without the need to seek it again. 3. The right to study. Again if your husband agrees he is giving permanent permission which he cannot revoke. 4. The right to a divorce if your husband marries another woman. Again your husband has to give his permission so that the mazoon can put this in the contract. If he later marries another woman your lawyer can take your marriage contract to the court along with evidence that he has married again and the court will give you a divorce without your husbands agreement and without you having to show any other cause other than that he broke the marriage contract which he agreed to when you got married. If you wish to divorce for any other reason however you have to show just cause and this is very difficult to prove in practice. 5. The right to divorce your husband without showing any just cause, this is called Kul. If at the time of marriage your husband agrees to this in the marriage contract he is effectively giving you his permission to divorce him without having to show just cause and without seeking his permission again. This is very controversial. Men automatically have the right to divorce their wife without having to show just cause and without her agreement. At the time of marriage a man can give this right to his wife by consenting to have this included in the marriage contract. Unlike a man however who can just say to you "I divorce you" in private without any witnesses and then register this divorce with the mazoon within 30 days, a woman who has been given the right of kul in the marriage contract has to go to court to ask for a divorce, this can take up to 4 months but she doesnt have to show any just cause and she doesnt need his further permission because he gave her the right to do this in the marriage contract. All the above 5 clauses became possible because of changes to the personal status law in egypt a few years ago. It may be possible to have other things added but they have to be agreed to by your husband and they have to be islamically valid because egyptian marriage laws are based on islamic law (sharia).
[This message has been edited by Jacqueline (edited 30 October 2004).]
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Just to add to what Jacqueline posted, several women also add a very high dowry to their marriage contract to not make it so easy for him to get out of a marriage they don't mutually agree to to.
For example, if he wants to take on a second wife or leave you for another woman, and your contract gives you an automatic divorce, you still would want to add some monetary damages to any pain and suffering this may cause you. Things like who gets to keep the house, furniture, and how much he would have to give you to get out of it, can make a huge difference later down the line. As you don't have an automatic right to these things, I would hate to see you returning to your country with nothing to show for, even if you may be the one funding these things to began with. So spell it out in the contract, who gets what. Egyptian(muslim) women are full aware of the Mahr, but many foreigners are not.
Otherwise you would make it too easy for him to get out of. Give him something to think about. (the key word is that you don't 'mutually' agree)
Think of it as a pre-nuptial agreement, there are several blank spaces in the contract you can add almost any provisions you choose, even an additional sheet if there aren't enough spaces provided.
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thank you all so much for this exact information... I really feel so optimistic now. I didn't know that so many things can be added/changed. Do you know if there are many women in Egypt who make additions like this to the contract, especially concerning traveling and the women's right to divorce without a "just cause"?? Is it just foreign women who ask for this or have you also heard about Egyptian couples doing it? Oh and another question to the "other new member": what would happen if I buy a flat from my own money in Cairo and we share it for many years, and then we get divorced... would it not be considered my property anymore??
Posts: 271 | From: germany | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by saeeda: thank you all so much for this exact information... I really feel so optimistic now. I didn't know that so many things can be added/changed. Do you know if there are many women in Egypt who make additions like this to the contract, especially concerning traveling and the women's right to divorce without a "just cause"?? Is it just foreign women who ask for this or have you also heard about Egyptian couples doing it? Oh and another question to the "other new member": what would happen if I buy a flat from my own money in Cairo and we share it for many years, and then we get divorced... would it not be considered my property anymore??
Re the property:- The key thing here is you buy the flat with your own money AND REGISTER IT IN YOUR NAME. Under Islamic law a woman keeps her own property and it never becomes the husbands on divorce. Much better than UK law where he could get up to 50%.
Your other point am not sure of the answer but surely what is important here is the fact that you will not have the backup and support of your own family in Egypt in the way an Egyptian woman would so this is why you need the extra protection?
quote:Originally posted by saeeda: Do you know if there are many women in Egypt who make additions like this to the contract, especially concerning traveling and the women's right to divorce without a "just cause"??
Don't know much about marriage in Egypt, but all foreign women I know who are married to Egyptians have additions like that to their marriage contracts. I don't think it's a sign of mistrust if you insist on those additions, it's common sense.
The contract without additions is restricting women's rights and I can't imagine why a man with love and respect for his future wife should accept it the way it is.
quote:Originally posted by saeeda: thank you all so much for this exact information... I really feel so optimistic now. I didn't know that so many things can be added/changed. Do you know if there are many women in Egypt who make additions like this to the contract, especially concerning traveling and the women's right to divorce without a "just cause"?? Is it just foreign women who ask for this or have you also heard about Egyptian couples doing it? Oh and another question to the "other new member": what would happen if I buy a flat from my own money in Cairo and we share it for many years, and then we get divorced... would it not be considered my property anymore??
Like Penny said, any property you buy and register in your own name is yours, and there is nothing he can do about it.
But I have known of several women that prefer to have their 'trustworthy' Egyptian husband purchase the property in his name, then register it in their(wife) name (with the marriage contract to back them up).
You would be surprised how much more money you could be charged as a foreigner for the same flat, your husband can get for a fraction of the price. The same goes for renting, if you decide to rent, let him do it in his name, the prices are usually lower. There are many plusses to having him in your corner, especially when it comes to the differences in prices charged to foreigners vs natives.
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