quote:

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Originally posted by melfenien:
I think he was rather sure to win. He supports families, wants to build more oil drills etc. - benefit. If I were American I'd vote for Kerry, though he's said not to be a good politician. I'm fed up with that cruel and stupid war and every day listening to the news about blasts, tortures in American prisons and killed children.
And I don't believe in Bush's idea of freedom for Iraq, it's all politics.

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Originally posted by annie_81:
I would readily exchange .... for the lives of Iraki people! pfff!

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Originally posted by TheMark:
Aren't you fed up of tortures and death sentences in Egypt? Aren't you fed up of lack of freedom (of religion, of press, of thought...) in Egypt?
USA is not heaven, but at least you can drink a beer, if you want, even if it's Ramadan; you can buy a magazine and read an article on a page even if on the back there's a woman's naked breast; and you can drive in a "normal" way :-)

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quote:

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Originally posted by melfenien:
I'd vote for Kerry, though he's said not to be a good politician.

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John Kerry didn't get the chance to show his qualities as US president to the American people and other nations around the world.

Being a senator in the fourth term in MA he was an outstanding Democratic candidate.

quote:

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Originally posted by TheMark:
Aren't you fed up of tortures and death sentences in Egypt? Aren't you fed up of lack of freedom (of religion, of press, of thought...) in Egypt?
USA is not heaven, but at least you can drink a beer, if you want, even if it's Ramadan; you can buy a magazine and read an article on a page even if on the back there's a woman's naked breast; and you can drive in a "normal" way :-)

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is all your problem in life now is to drink beer and seeing magazine for naked breast I think the world have more to think about more than Beer and ...what u saying.

Yeah, the US its such a heaven. People are able to vote their president when 18 years old but in many States are not allowed to drink alcohol before they reached their 21st birthday...........

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Originally posted by The Mark:
Aren't you fed up of tortures and death sentences in Egypt? Aren't you fed up of lack of freedom (of religion, of press, of thought...) in Egypt?

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Haven't you seen the photos published some time ago? Iraqi men laying on the ground dead, shot and soldiers standing pround above them. "The pyramid" of naked Iraqi soldiers in prison and a group of proud again soldiers making photos with them like it was the real pyramid. Iraqi children walking among dead bodies of their parents, friends and lots of other people. Bodies of Iraqi children, killed by mistake, or not. Don't tell me this happens in Egypt every day.
By the way, read the post sent by DazedAndConfused "Comfortably Numb". Nobody answered it. Why? There're no words to express what you feel after reading something like this. Thank you, Dazed.

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USA is not heaven, but at least you can drink a beer, if you want, even if it's Ramadan; you can buy a magazine and read an article on a page even if on the back there's a woman's naked breast; and you can drive in a "normal" way :-)

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Ramadan is a beautiful tradition, I don't like beer, I don't read magazines with naked women and I love the way of driving in Egypt.
By the way, I've spent my holidays in Egypt with 3 Polish guys, living in the USA for 10 years: father and his 2 sons. It's just impossible how their mentality changed. I like them, they're good and funny companions but often they were irritating me. They were spending half (or all) their day in a room - too hot outside.
I went diving on the reef - drinking cappucino at the swimming pool is a better activity.
I was swimming in the pool - walking in the water is a better idea.
They didn't go for trips, ex. to Cairo - too long, too hot.
They didn't like riding on camels - they prefered jeeps.
They were in jeeps - they prefered to go faster.
They didn't like food - they prefered McDonald's.
We went on go-karts - they had similar on their own.
I was admiring stars in the sky - they saw such at their home. etc. etc.
They were coming back - they were glad. They said they didn't like Egypt though they saw nothing except swimming pool, heap of cappucino glasses outside their room, bed, toilet and Pepsi glasses on each step.

I really don't want to offend Americans in any way, I know you're not all like this and you all don't have to like Egypt.
But if you go there, why not to give yourself a chance to know just a bit of its fascinating culture?
Why to live in Egypt if you don't like it???

1-It means that USA ppl choose him which means they approve what he doing in arab country which will make them in a big fire after the election by Al- Qaida and all other hopeless organizations ( alot of explosion, kiddnape,...etc) i not approve that but it is a logic result.

2-It means he still OK with what he doing in the world so he will do more and more so the next epsoid will be(Iran, Syria ,...etc) so there will no peace anymore

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Originally posted by TheMark:
Aren't you fed up of tortures and death sentences in Egypt? Aren't you fed up of lack of freedom (of religion, of press, of thought...) in Egypt?
USA is not heaven, but at least you can drink a beer, if you want, even if it's Ramadan; you can buy a magazine and read an article on a page even if on the back there's a woman's naked breast; and you can drive in a "normal" way :-)

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This is the most ignorant thing that I heard in a while. This is one of the biggest reason why America is in a situation like this now. NOT EVERYONE LIKES WHAT AMERICANS LIKE. Not everyone wants to drink beer and look at naked women, just how not everyone wants to have a Ramadan or live in a muslim run country. Let people be once they are not threatening you. Face it, the way bush and his radical christians are going America will soon be a christian ran state where there is no separation of church and state. That is Bush's plan...Soon you might not be able to drink beer and watch a sunday football game because its against the law....

I was also shocked that bush won too....I was like wow, Americans really didn't vote on issues that I think they should have. Here's a man who lied about the reason's to go to war in iraq, crashed the economy, didn't make the USA any safer from radical muslims and terriorist, took his focus on the true cluprit bin laden, made america lose its strong ally relationships, and cause a high jobless rate especially in Ohio; yet ohio was the same state that voted for him....
Does this make sense to anyone? The exit poles showed Kerry to be ahead in Ohio but then the outcome was exactly the opposite!

On the morality issue of abortion, gay marriage and separation of church and state; None of these issues will and would have changed if kerry or bush is president. These are true red hering issues. However bush will continue to blurr the lines of church and state. The economy is a great issue that should have been taken into account. Bush and his taxs breaks for the top 2% of rich americans while putting the squeeze hold on the middle class especially white middle class. I just don't get it!!
Anyway I hope the next four years are miraculously better for America and somehow Bush takes good advise and actions that will make america great again.

------------------
Time Will Tell!- Bob Marley

Dear Friends,

Ok, it sucks. Really sucks. But before you go and cash it all in, let's, in the words of Monty Python, “always look on the bright side of life!” There IS some good news from Tuesday's election.

Here are 17 reasons not to slit your wrists:

1. It is against the law for George W. Bush to run for president again.

2. Bush's victory was the NARROWEST win for a sitting president since Woodrow Wilson in 1916.

3. The only age group in which the majority voted for Kerry was young adults (Kerry: 54%, Bush: 44%), proving once again that your parents are always wrong and you should never listen to them.

4. In spite of Bush's win, the majority of Americans still think the country is headed in the wrong direction (56%), think the war wasn't worth fighting (51%), and don’t approve of the job George W. Bush is doing (52%). (Note to foreigners: Don't try to figure this one out. It's an American thing, like Pop Tarts.)

5. The Republicans will not have a filibuster-proof 60-seat majority in the Senate. If the Democrats do their job, Bush won't be able to pack the Supreme Court with right-wing ideologues. Did I say "if the Democrats do their job?" Um, maybe better to scratch this one.

6. Michigan voted for Kerry! So did the entire Northeast, the birthplace of our democracy. So did 6 of the 8 Great Lakes States. And the whole West Coast! Plus Hawaii. Ok, that's a start. We've got most of the fresh water, all of Broadway, and Mt. St. Helens. We can dehydrate them or bury them in lava. And no more show tunes!

7. Once again we are reminded that the buckeye is a nut, and not just any old nut -- a poisonous nut. A great nation was felled by a poisonous nut. May Ohio State pay dearly this Saturday when it faces Michigan.

8. 88% of Bush's support came from white voters. In 50 years, America will no longer have a white majority. Hey, 50 years isn't such a long time! If you're ten years old and reading this, your golden years will be truly golden and you will be well cared for in your old age.

9. Gays, thanks to the ballot measures passed on Tuesday, cannot get married in 11 new states. Thank God. Just think of all those wedding gifts we won't have to buy now.

10. Five more African Americans were elected as members of Congress, including the return of Cynthia McKinney of Georgia. It's always good to have more blacks in there fighting for us and doing the job our candidates can't.

11. The CEO of Coors was defeated for Senate in Colorado. Drink up!

12. Admit it: We like the Bush twins and we don't want them to go away.

13. At the state legislative level, Democrats picked up a net of at least 3 chambers in Tuesday's elections. Of the 98 partisan-controlled state legislative chambers (house/assembly and senate), Democrats went into the 2004 elections in control of 44 chambers, Republicans controlled 53 chambers, and 1 chamber was tied. After Tuesday, Democrats now control 47 chambers, Republicans control 49 chambers, 1 chamber is tied and 1 chamber (Montana House) is still undecided.

14. Bush is now a lame duck president. He will have no greater moment than the one he's having this week. It's all downhill for him from here on out -- and, more significantly, he's just not going to want to do all the hard work that will be expected of him. It'll be like everyone's last month in 12th grade -- you've already made it, so it's party time! Perhaps he'll treat the next four years like a permanent Friday, spending even more time at the ranch or in Kennebunkport. And why shouldn't he? He's already proved his point, avenged his father and kicked our ass.

15. Should Bush decide to show up to work and take this country down a very dark road, it is also just as likely that either of the following two scenarios will happen: a) Now that he doesn't ever need to pander to the Christian conservatives again to get elected, someone may whisper in his ear that he should spend these last four years building "a legacy" so that history will render a kinder verdict on him and thus he will not push for too aggressive a right-wing agenda; or b) He will become so cocky and arrogant -- and thus, reckless -- that he will commit a blunder of such major proportions that even his own party will have to remove him from office.

16. There are nearly 300 million Americans -- 200 million of them of voting age. We only lost by three and a half million! That's not a landslide -- it means we're almost there. Imagine losing by 20 million. If you had 58 yards to go before you reached the goal line and then you barreled down 55 of those yards, would you stop on the three yard line, pick up the ball and go home crying -- especially when you get to start the next down on the three yard line? Of course not! Buck up! Have hope! More sports analogies are coming!!!

17. Finally and most importantly, over 55 million Americans voted for the candidate dubbed "The #1 Liberal in the Senate." That's more than the total number of voters who voted for either Reagan, Bush I, Clinton or Gore. Again, more people voted for Kerry than Reagan. If the media are looking for a trend it should be this -- that so many Americans were, for the first time since Kennedy, willing to vote for an out-and-out liberal. The country has always been filled with evangelicals -- that is not news. What IS news is that so many people have shifted toward a Massachusetts liberal. In fact, that's BIG news. Which means, don't expect the mainstream media, the ones who brought you the Iraq War, to ever report the real truth about November 2, 2004. In fact, it's better that they don't. We'll need the element of surprise in 2008.

Feeling better? I hope so. As my friend Mort wrote me yesterday, "My Romanian grandfather used to say to me, 'Remember, Morton, this is such a wonderful country -- it doesn't even need a president!'"

But it needs us. Rest up, I'll write you again tomorrow.

Yours,

quote:

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Originally posted by trixie:
Do not judge all Americans because Bush won. First of all, you have to consider it was 48% for Kerry to 52% for Bush...that's split...

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Originally posted by annie_81:
There is no excuse for americans who did not vote. Anybody who could have, but did not vote is guilty of putting Bush back in power. its not 48/52% its 55 million votes for Kerry and 245 million (or so) for Bush. If you dont speak up you are responsible for the outcome. "whashing ones hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless is to side with the powerful, not to be neutral".

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You are right in general, yet you are overestimating your numbers. Your estimate of total population (300MM people) eligible for voting is incorrect. People under 18 do not vote. The 300MM figure also includes foreigners living in the US as well as permenant residents who do not have a right to vote.

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Originally posted by Keino:
This is the most ignorant thing that I heard in a while. This is one of the biggest reason why America is in a situation like this now. NOT EVERYONE LIKES WHAT AMERICANS LIKE. Not everyone wants to drink beer and look at naked women, just how not everyone wants to have a Ramadan or live in a muslim run country.

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you see, THIS is the point! In Egypt, everybody MUST follow ISLAM rules: I was out with an egyptian friend who couldn't get a beer, because being egyptian means being muslims, or at least this is what the law says. And about naked women, I don't want to see naked woman, but if on a magazine there's a naked woman on a page, this page is taken off by censors, and so I can't read whatever was ON THE BACK of this page! This is the lack of freedom I notice here.
And then, I never said I agree with tortures and killings in the US, I was just pointing out that in Egypt happen the same things, but nobody's ever saying anything. Egypt is INCREASING the number of death sentences in the last years, have a look at Amnesty International website! US is not good, but Egypt isn't either!
And by the way, just tell me something, I confess my ignorance on this subject: are there free elections in Egypt? I mean, if egyptians don't agree with Mubarak, are they allowed to vote, like in the US?

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Originally posted by TheMark:

And then, I never said I agree with tortures and killings in the US, I was just pointing out that in Egypt happen the same things, but nobody's ever saying anything. Egypt is INCREASING the number of death sentences in the last years, have a look at Amnesty International website! US is not good, but Egypt isn't either!
And by the way, just tell me something, I confess my ignorance on this subject: are there free elections in Egypt? I mean, if egyptians don't agree with Mubarak, are they allowed to vote, like in the US?

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Good point.

What do Egyptians do to have democracy in their country, free elections?

What do Egyptians do to push their own government for political and economic reform, reduce poverty, provide opportunities based on merit not connections and social class?

What do Egyptians do about stopping dictatorship in their own country?

What do Egyptians (people and government) do besides empty rhetoric about helping Palestine and its people instead of only bashing America yet accepting its foreign aid?

What does anybody else in the world really do to have stopped the war in Iraq instead of talking?

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Originally posted by Troubles101:

[This message has been edited by Troubles101 (edited 06 November 2004).]

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In many ways true. If I had a right to vote in USA, I would have voted for Kerry. Yet, I know very intelligent Americans (grads of top schools in USA) who voted for Bush. In fact we had a discussion last night. One very intelligent person explained his rationale for voting for Bush instead of Kerry, specifically on Iraq issue:

Although this person agreed that war in Iraq should have never been launched. Kerry never proposed a simple strategy as to how he would resolve the issue now that the damage has been done.

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Originally posted by katrina:
In many ways true. If I had a right to vote in USA, I would have voted for Kerry. Yet, I know very intelligent Americans (grads of top schools in USA) who voted for Bush. In fact we had a discussion last night. One very intelligent person explained his rationale for voting for Bush instead of Kerry, specifically on Iraq issue:

Although this person agreed that war in Iraq should have never been launched. Kerry never proposed a simple strategy as to how he would resolve the issue now that the damage has been done.

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Originally posted by katrina:

Good point.

What do Egyptians do to have democracy in their country, free elections?

What do Egyptians do to push their own government for political and economic reform, reduce poverty, provide opportunities based on merit not connections and social class?

What do Egyptians do about stopping dictatorship in their own country?

What do Egyptians (people and government) do besides empty rhetoric about helping Palestine and its people instead of only bashing America yet accepting its foreign aid?

What does anybody else in the world really do to have stopped the war in Iraq instead of talking?

If Americans are responsible for many things happening in the world (which is true to some extent), they can say the same thing to other nations: You are responsible for your own corruption, your dictator Mubarak, your poverty, your garbage in the streets, etc etc etc. Why do not you first solve problems of your own country before using just rhetoric about other nations? Ins't it a bit old to refer to Egypt's ancient times as once good and prosperous and blame the rest of the world, lack of natural resources, consipracy theories for all the ills instead of looking at yourself first? If people are so quick to find flaws in other nations, I am sure it should be just as easy to have a critical eye on your own matters!

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Wrong is wrong! If it makes you feel better to drag Egypt everywhere when people speak about USA then it will only show how weak are those who are defending this position by diverting the subject thinking they will shut people up when they tell them you can't blame us because you are wrong too.Actually I'm very critical about Egypt itself but having problems in my country does not mean I have no right to crticize what's wrong when I see no matter where and when. You are the last to speak of self criticism now! The subject is about USA election not Egypt.Open a logic book and go to the falacy of "Two Wrongs Make a Right".

You can start thread and speak as you like about Egypt which is a normal thing here and I promise you I wont speak about how messed up is Russia in all fields when the discussion is about Egypt.

I wont even defend Egypt or Egyptians here

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Originally posted by Troubles101:
Wrong is wrong! If it makes you feel better to drag Egypt everywhere when people speak about USA then it will only show how weak are those who are defending this position by diverting the subject thinking they will shut people up when they tell them you can't blame us because you are wrong too.Actually I'm very critical about Egypt itself but having problems in my country does not mean I have no right to crticize what's wrong when I see no matter where and when. You are the last to speak of self criticism now! The subject is about USA election not Egypt.Open a logic book and go to the falacy of "Two Wrongs Make a Right".

You can start thread and speak as you like about Egypt which is a normal thing here and I promise you I wont speak about how messed up is Russia in all fields when the discussion is about Egypt.

I wont even defend Egypt or Egyptians here

[This message has been edited by Troubles101 (edited 06 November 2004).]

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First, read my views about elections and Mr. Bush before accusing me to "shut" you up. You can critisize any country you want including your own, USA, Russia, go ahead, but before anybody you or me do it, think what anybody has done besides critisizing. real actions to improve USA, Egypt, Russia, etc. That was the point. What is the use in empty rhetoric? I have not diverted the subject, in fact I spoke against Bush and horror of his Administration in multiple threads. Neither did I say what you claim about two wrongs make it right. You missed the point yourself. No I do not drag Egypt everywhere, no need to get so defensive. No need to be over-critical of USA either. What is better is a well-balanced view without so much self-defence.

P.S. I do not appreciate your aggressive tone while I am simply debating with ES members. If you have to get personal instead of simply talking about issues and if it is your manner, to speak aggressively, I would appreciate you do not address me on this forum any longer.

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Originally posted by katrina:
First, read my views about elections and Mr. Bush before accusing me to "shut" you up. You can critisize any country you want including your own, USA, Russia, go ahead,

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Good!

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but before anybody you or me do it, think what anybody has done besides critisizing. real actions to improve USA, Egypt, Russia, etc. That was the point. What is the use in empty rhetoric?

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It's good to speak about how to improve the situation but this goes side by side with cricism.Also in message board none can tell you what he or she is doing to improve the situation before cricizing what they see.again this is away to shut people up and it's very common way between people who feel uncomfortable with criticism.

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I have not diverted the subject, in fact I spoke against Bush and horror of his Administration in multiple threads. Neither did I say what you claim about two wrongs make it right. You missed the point yourself. No I do not drag Egypt everywhere, no need to get so defensive. No need to be over-critical of USA either. What is better is a well-balanced view without so much self-defence.

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P.S. I do not appreciate your aggressive tone while I am simply debating with ES members. If you have to get personal instead of simply talking about issues and if it is your manner, to speak aggressively, I would appreciate you do not address me on this forum any longer.

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?!

Actually you are the one who is taking it personal! Anyway! If you find me aggressive then it's more reasonable to think about ignoring me.very simple.

Have a good day

I was reading through the posts here and felt the need to write a response because:
1) I am American
2) I do not eat McDonalds
3) I respect and love Egyptian culture and Islam
4) I may not be a majority in my country, but I am definitely not alone!!

I read some of the sweeping generalizations about Americans and their cultural insensitivity and I felt compelled to respond.

I am not saying that a lot of Americans are not close-minded and culturally insensitive, but the truth is that the majority of people in the world are close-minded and culturally insensitive. It is only the elite few of us that have been lucky enough to travel, to learn other languages, to experience other cultures, that truly have a global perspective on the world.

I can say this because I have been to over 30 countries...including Egypt several times. During the month that I spent in Egypt I stayed with my Egyptian friends, ate at the most Egyptian restaurants you can imagine (including Mohamed Achmeds in Alex!), I learned as much Arabic as I could (Ana behab Misr!) and tried to learn as much about Egyptian culture as I possibly could.

There are a LOT of other Americans like me… who embrace other cultures, who think globally, who REFUSE to eat McDonalds outside the US.

If you are reading this, you speak English. Which puts you in the top 1% socio-economic and educational background in your country. You and I have a lot more in common than you and someone in a village in Egypt who has never watched television and can’t read. And that person in the village in Egypt has a lot more in common with someone living on a farm in rural Kansas than I do.

Being close-minded is not about being American, it is about the lifestyle and education of people…. Urban vs. rural, religious vs. secular, traveled vs. untraveled.

So, I agree- CLOSEMINDED, CULTURALLY INSENSITIVE PEOPLE STINK! People who go to other countries and don’t really experience the culture there are stupid…but, they are not all American!

Ma3a Salama-

Suzanne

now about cultural insensitivity of americans we were participating this year ins something called the salaam project where egyptian students go on a cultural experience in the US and US students come here. i was one of the pople responsible for the US people here.
i met this year 10 students on this program. one of them would fit the general stereotypical american that you guys talk about. he insulted us and was one of the most arrogant assholes you can meet.
the 9 others were 9 of the most amazing people i have met! they were cluturally sensitive, they involved themselves in everything and enjoyed everything ( including mohemd ahmed) in egypt. they got teased harrased by stupid hormone driven shovenist egyptian men (which represent 90% of the male population) and still they loved out country and i still talk to them daily.
so only 1% of the ones that were here thought like that.
out of experience i can tell that egyptians whouldn't have been very different r any other nationlaity of that matter.

as for the elections in the US - i hope they realize how lucky they are since they CAN acctually have a say in the matter. freedom is such a great thing which we egyptians have given up on.
if i were american - i would vote for bush.
i hope he kills binladen and all those other terrorists all over the world. and history will show when iraq in 10years time have an elected govenment and is one of the top countries of the region while we fall behind in our retardation we egyptians will day " i wish the US could come rescue us from our misery".
afghanistan - a country with what zero civilization compared to egypt has a fairly elected president - the first step towards freedom and democracy!
what about egypt?

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Originally posted by superluli:

if i were american - i would vote for bush.
i hope he kills binladen and all those other terrorists all over the world. and history will show when iraq in 10years time have an elected govenment and is one of the top countries of the region while we fall behind in our retardation we egyptians will day " i wish the US could come rescue us from our misery".
afghanistan - a country with what zero civilization compared to egypt has a fairly elected president - the first step towards freedom and democracy!
what about egypt?

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Away from Mr Bush and his so called war against terrorism (AKA war for oil and rvenge). I think the recent event taught us a good lesson that democracy without education is worthless. Iraq will not be very different from USA nor Iran .They got Shia's majority and there you go...

While almost the whole waorld was concerned about war on terrorism, Bush and his men brainwashed the american people to think otherwise,As James carvile puts it ""What they did was not accurate, and disingenuous, but they did it and, for the moment, got away with it,"

And he added "Republicans, did a good job convincing Americans not to worry about Social Security but to worry instead that two guys down the street might get married"

remember kosovo? the US intervened there too, and noone said anything! and there was no oil there or anything.
i have to admit though clinton's attitude and the way he went about his intervention in kosovo was not like bush.
bush is provoking people and challenging everyone , that was very unwise of him.
maybe if clinton started this war on terrorism, it would not have been such a big issue.