posted
to keep debates on topic it might be a good idea if all religious points are confined to one page, then they can be answered at the proper time by those wishing to express religious viewpoints.
Posts: 431 | From: luxor egypt | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by sokarya@hotmail.com: to keep debates on topic it might be a good idea if all religious points are confined to one page, then they can be answered at the proper time by those wishing to express religious viewpoints.
What you mean by 'other inferior religions'? Your title suggests you perceive Islam as an inferior religion?!
posted
It all depends how one looks at it. Islam accepts all religions, even the ones that worship cows. So in that sense it can hardly be a pure religion, can it. Charlie
Posts: 431 | From: luxor egypt | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by sokarya@hotmail.com: It all depends how one looks at it. Islam accepts all religions, even the ones that worship cows. So in that sense it can hardly be a pure religion, can it. Charlie
we accept cows that's for sure but how do we accept worshiping them?
quote:Originally posted by sokarya@hotmail.com: It all depends how one looks at it. Islam accepts all religions, even the ones that worship cows. So in that sense it can hardly be a pure religion, can it. Charlie
Says who that Islam accepts all religions, even the ones that worship cows. So in that sense it can hardly be a pure religion, can it.
posted
Hello SinInn, well it does say in the Koran you know that anyone who does not accept other peoples religion is not of Islam. Please dont ask me to prove it, but if I must then I will. Charlie
Posts: 431 | From: luxor egypt | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by sokarya@hotmail.com: Hello SinInn, well it does say in the Koran you know that anyone who does not accept other peoples religion is not of Islam. Please dont ask me to prove it, but if I must then I will. Charlie
posted
Dear Sin Inn, Oh dear, here I go again: You may be aware that in the Koran there is a verse which says "WHEREVER YOU TURN, GOD HAS A FACE OF REVELATION IN THAT DIRECTION'.
It is presumed what is meant by the ABSOLUTE and by the RELATIVE.
If we call God ABSOLUTE to the exclusion of all other gods and idols then swe have "conditioned" Him with Absoluteness.
Now, it is necessary that God is NOT "conditioned" by anything, and will NOT be tied down; whereas if He IS so "conditioned" then the Absolute becomes the relative, and not therefore the Absolute.
If a person, therefore, were to make his devotion to an idol, and denied a belief in any other god, then the Koran considers him to have covered up the Truth, and is in denial.
Consequently, therefore, if a Moslem denies, or is in denial one of the Beings in which God manifests and reveals Himself, then religion does not consider him a Moslem.
.....for he does exactly what the pagan does.
Hope this explanation is acceptable to you. but if you need more clarification on Absolute and Relative, pse let me know. Charlie.
quote:Originally posted by sokarya@hotmail.com: Dear Sin Inn, Oh dear, here I go again: You may be aware that in the Koran there is a verse which says "WHEREVER YOU TURN, GOD HAS A FACE OF REVELATION IN THAT DIRECTION'.
It is presumed what is meant by the ABSOLUTE and by the RELATIVE.
If we call God ABSOLUTE to the exclusion of all other gods and idols then swe have "conditioned" Him with Absoluteness.
Now, it is necessary that God is NOT "conditioned" by anything, and will NOT be tied down; whereas if He IS so "conditioned" then the Absolute becomes the relative, and not therefore the Absolute.
If a person, therefore, were to make his devotion to an idol, and denied a belief in any other god, then the Koran considers him to have covered up the Truth, and is in denial.
Consequently, therefore, if a Moslem denies, or is in denial one of the Beings in which God manifests and reveals Himself, then religion does not consider him a Moslem.
.....for he does exactly what the pagan does.
Hope this explanation is acceptable to you. but if you need more clarification on Absolute and Relative, pse let me know. Charlie.
First of all, I didn't even try to read your explanation."Don't get mad on me"
The first thing you have to do is provide me with the chapter name and the verse number, After that i'll check if it exist or not and if it exist i have make sure that u made the right translation to it.
Later to mentioned above steps, I'll provide you with the right explanation to the verse.
posted
Dear Sinn Inn, thank you for your post. The only thing I have to say here is if you are taking every word of the Koran as literal, then you do so on your own. That is like study at an infant school. I am sorry, I am prepared to discuss things intelligently, but I am not a child. If you want to be, then I shall withdraw from the topic. Best wishes, Charlie.
Posts: 431 | From: luxor egypt | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by sokarya@hotmail.com: Dear Sinn Inn, thank you for your post. The only thing I have to say here is if you are taking every word of the Koran as literal, then you do so on your own. That is like study at an infant school. I am sorry, I am prepared to discuss things intelligently, but I am not a child. If you want to be, then I shall withdraw from the topic. Best wishes, Charlie.
posted
My Darling, You rest on nothing. If you think for one minute that Charlie gives up on a debate I can assure you he does not! I understand his message to mean that he is prepared to discuss things at a lower level of intellect so as to accommodate those with less knowledge. I mean, just look how he has brought up the standard of debate in these forums already. Do you know how many Catholic priests are writing to him from all over the world darlings, well he wont be going to Rome this year.
All Charlie seems to have said to you is that he was not prepared to play silly games quoting words from the Koran to each other as if you were playing a game, and if you are not prepared to even read what he says, then theres no need for him to communicate. All my love, darling, Annie
quote:Originally posted by sokarya@hotmail.com: My Darling, You rest on nothing. If you think for one minute that Charlie gives up on a debate I can assure you he does not! I understand his message to mean that he is prepared to discuss things at a lower level of intellect so as to accommodate those with less knowledge. I mean, just look how he has brought up the standard of debate in these forums already. Do you know how many Catholic priests are writing to him from all over the world darlings, well he wont be going to Rome this year.
All Charlie seems to have said to you is that he was not prepared to play silly games quoting words from the Koran to each other as if you were playing a game, and if you are not prepared to even read what he says, then theres no need for him to communicate. All my love, darling, Annie
Well, 1-Am not ur F.u.c.k.e.n Darling. 2-I rest with alot. 3-He/she better speak for him/her self. 4-Take the whole thread and Shove it up ur A.S.S
posted
Sin Inn, Darling, This is not french. Charlie can well speak for himself. He is here and will probably reply to you shortly. However, your comment is noted, and I wonder though which part of the Koran you found this in. All my love darling. Annie
Posts: 431 | From: luxor egypt | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Sorry I have to reply to these msgs with a little concern. I am Muslim and I do know that Islam does not accept the worshiping of cows. It clearly states that we believe in the people of the book. Which is Jews and Christians and no other.. And we also do not use fowl language either when talking about things. The Quran says to deal with others who have questions in a just and patient manner, and to argue a point with them with intellect and respect.
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posted
Hello Darlings, all of you. Now we mustnt start picking on Sin Inn. We all realise he has internally combusted. Now, the best thing to do is to give him time to calm down. Obviously, he equates me with someone in his unsuccessful love life, and needs time to get over it. All mylove Annie
Posts: 431 | From: luxor egypt | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
I would also like to add that if sokarya thinks Islam is an inferior religion to look up the numbers on how many people are muslim and how many are reverting to islam and then make a decision. S/he will find that their claim is baseless. Also being that s/he lives in an arabic country shouldnt you be aware of this already? Posts: 27 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Dear Kitkat, I wouldnt agree that just because a religion has more members that it necessarily means that it MUST be right. It simply means it has members. For example, there are more followers of Satan than anyone else, but he isnt right, or is he? Charlie.
Posts: 431 | From: luxor egypt | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Hi Sin Sin darling. I am really not trying to analyse you dear. All I said was that you had internally combusted. Now charlie told me that when someone internally combusts, they implode on the inside but explode on the outside. Now that seems to be what you have done dear. Was it really necessary to change your name from sinsin to Dumbdum, and write all that abuse to Charlie and me on that other topic? When Charlie and I read it, we came to the conclusion that during the explosion your ego managed to escape and took on another identity and false name. Only darling it was as obvious to us that it was you, as if I were to call myself Carnal Knowledge. Its blindingly obvious dear, I mean who else would give themselves a name like "dummy". We know that dear, but please dont keep putting yourself down and showing yourself up with all that improvised swearing. Now lets try and be friends. Do you know poor old Charlie wouldnt hurt a fly, and what you said nearly caused him to go off into one of his sulks. Now lets try and be sensible in the future darling. All my love Annie.
Posts: 431 | From: luxor egypt | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Dear sokarya, I was referring to your description of Islam as being inferior. So just so i am clear on your opinion, can u please give me your definition on the use of the word 'inferior' when referring to islam. thank you..
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posted
Dear Kitekat, Thanks for your post. Actual a number of people have slightly misread my topic. It was my fault because I should have inserted a comma after the word Islam. It makes all the difference, hence, Islam, and all inferior religion. This is how I meant it to come out.
However, I recently did the "religion" test, and there are 27 faiths I believe, all believing in THE one God idea. None of these 27 faiths are wrong (in my view) because they represent 27 faces or aspects of the same God. I scored a percentage as others did for each of these faiths.
For example if I scored 5O% for Islam, then I could worship next to a Moslem but I would only have half the faith that he had. If I scored 75% as an Eastern Orthodox, then I would stand next to one of those and worship the same god, but I would only believe 75% of what he believed. If I worshipped God standing next to a pagan, and I only scored lO% as a pagan, then I would know that he only believes lO% of what I believe in.
For the gnostic, which I am, I do not tie myself down to the conjecture of just one face of God, but I accept ALL his aspects and I accept He manifests Himself in all different ways to all His people. Hope this clarifies things a bit. Charlie.
posted
Dear Kitakat, Just to let you know that I did the "religion" questionaire, and I came out 86% Islam! One of the things I cant quite agree on is the resurrection of dead bodies which will be united with their souls in the afterlife and they (resurrected corpse and soul) will reside for eternity in either hell or heaven.
I cannot accept this as a literal truth, neither can a resurrected corpse be interpreted allorgorically. Perhaps you can explain why you believe this. Charlie.
posted
While many religions believe in different things and they have the basis of their beliefs which is of some superior force/s or being/s, Muslims believe that once they have died that their soul which will be in their physical body until the day of judgement will be questioned on its beliefs. For example ‘who is your god?’ and ‘what is your religion?’.(Although, Allah is all knowing and all seeing of this anyway.)Depending on the way you have lived your life you will either be punished in your grave or be rewarded until the day of judgement. The physical body and the soul stay together there until you are called to be judged by Allah (swt). I must add that questioning what will happen with our souls when we are dead is something none one can explain. It is only when we give our faith to Allah that we should have a slight idea of what Allah has described to us in the Quran of what will happen to our souls in either heaven or hell. Can u please tell me a little more about your beliefs as a Gnostic? I am not sure of what this is. Thanks.
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posted
Hello KitaKat, Gnostics, so far as I know dont have a creed, and I will explain the belief I have in more detail, perhaps tomorrow.
Just to keep on track and the issue of Judgment of the resurrected corpse infused with its original soul after death, is somewhat interpreted differently by gnostics (the word which simply means "knower" - that should kick start a few individuals off!) The gnostic basically believes that his own body is a type of hell whilst on this earth. This is called his corporal or "Human Nature". Infused into this receptacle of Human Form (made in the image of God in Adam) is a portion of the essence of God, or the "soul" which is part of the Cosmic soul of the One (God). It is believed that through "knowledge" we can learn to "die" to our Human Natures and "resurrect" to our Higher self and what is known as the Divine Nature (part of the cosmic soul of God). Jesus dying and resurrecting on the Cross is symbolic of this transformation. The gnostic believes that we are judged here and now and not after we are laid to our "rest" (Natural death)
Of course, as a gnostic, we would not deny the belief in an afterlife, even of heaven and hell or even in resurrected corpses etc, and so I now do believe in that as well.
That doesnt make me a hypocrit however, because the gnostics frame is large, and if I were to appear to believe in corpses rising, then let that be so. I would not believe in one thing without the other for God manifests in all ways. God knows best. Hope this clarifies the position here, and I will try to elucidate further next time. Charlie.
posted
Dear Kitakat, I could write a book on "what is a gnostic" but will be brief.
A gnostic does not remain trapped in one belief. Therefore I accept any form of belief presented to me externally. There is, however, no change to my interior. I will look at the origins of all belief from every possible angle. Being a gnostic is about learning about the self and that is the way to God. "They who see their beloved today, are the ones who see tomorrow.
What will they know of their beloved there, they who are the blind here"
(taken from Koran) There is a hadith which says: "They who know themselves know God"
I recently completed the "religion" test and I managed to come out 85% or more on ALL of them. This is only possible because I see only ONE God, "religion" is only the exterior clothing, water taking on the colour of the bowl in which it is contained.
As for the "soul" or Divine Order that is within, I can say that my end will be like my beginning. When God blew life into my body in the beginning, he will suck it out at the end. If God created me out of Love, then when I die my soul which is His soul will go back to the heart from where it came, and disolve into tears in His eyes.
At the end of it all there is ONLY GOD.
Hope this explains something of what its like to be a gnostic (in principle).
posted
that is quite confusing to me. but vaguely understandable.but how can you accept all beliefs for example...A Muslim and a Hindus differences in religion. They are so different that they cant be compared. But I think what you are saying is that these are all religions made by people and god does not follow or bless any of these as they are not from his words or him? There is only god, but how do u get belief in this and faith? would your beliefs not just be considered another religion?
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posted
Hello Kitakat, Theres no difference at all between what a Muslem and a Hindu believe in. The believe in the One God (although Allah has managed to bring in Satan as a demi-god into the equation, (to rule the world of the unbelievers).
The only difference is in ritual practices. Well, they are man made according to the conjecture of man to satisfy his own needs.
Not all Muslems agree on these points which is why you have so many branches of Islam, all claiming for themselves to be the "right" one.
Of course, Moslems would never agree with one another, and the "other moslem" is always in the wrong.
The Gnostic agrees with all points of view because he shifts his position according to the face of revelation of God. This is something that an ordinary Moslem is unable or unwilling to do because he is tied to a particular dimension, and he usually stays there for the rest of his life.
posted
As a Muslim, the basis of the faith is the belief in Allah and Quran, and Hadiths. There is nothing confusing about this. But I do agree that many try to dissect religion and make it to their comfort and taste, then missing the whole point of their true religion, which is pure and unchanged. The bible has been treated the same. As to Hindus and Muslims being similar, I disagree. Hindus believe in one god as Muslims believe, but the similarities stop there. I invite you to read from this website if you wish to contradict this issue.www.religioustolerance.org/hinduism.htm. According to the Islamic belief, Iblis - the Satan - is neither a fallen angel, as the Christians believe, nor an agent of God. Islam introduces Iblis as a Jinn, who by his freewill opted to disobey God and transgress. God allowed Satan respite from punishment till an appointed time and gave him the authority only to the extent of suggesting evil to man. Iblis and his agents - from among jinn as well as men - cannot force man into evil. They, however, can incite man to do what is against God's commandments and thereby lose the path of eternal success. This does not make satan a semi-god, Allah gave him as above and can take it away any time he wants. Satan has no authority over anything god created (which is everything). Allah is the one and only god of all. I hope this helps. Thanks.
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posted
Hello Kitakat, according to Koran satan rules over the world of unbelievers (please dont tell me Ive got the wrong Koran). Did not Allah create those as well?
In my revelation of satan, this is a state of mind in the individual whereby there is separation from God. Where there is separation from God, then wrongdoings arise.
I dont believe in Jinns and wicked spirits and stuff like that, these are intrinsically pagan concepts brought up to date in the 21st century. Entire rubbish to the thinking mind.
posted
Hi Charlie and Hi all Let me plz highlight the main differnces between Islam and Hinduism. First we will highlight Islam Sides, and Second we will highlight Hinduism Sides. ............................................. (A) ISLAM 1- In Islam, belief in One God is the most important belief. Allah in arabic refers to the One God. It is a known fact that every language has one or more terms that are used in reference to God and sometimes to lesser deities. This is not the case with Allah. Allah is the personal name of the One true God. Nothing else can be called Allah. The term has no plural or gender. This shows its uniqueness when compared with the word god which can be made plural, gods, or feminine, goddess. It is interesting to notice that Allah is the personal name of God in Aramaic, the language of Jesus and a sister language of Arabic. The One true God is a reflection of the unique concept that Islam associates with God. To a Muslim, Allah is the Almighty, Creator and Sustainer of the universe, Who is similar to nothing and nothing is comparable to Him. (monotheism)
2-Islam exhorts man to consider himself and his surroundings as examples of Divine Creation rather than as divinity itself. Muslims therefore believe that everything is God’s i.e. the word ‘God’ with an apostrophe ‘s’. In other words the Muslims believe that everything belongs to God. The trees belong to God, the sun belongs to God, the moon belongs to God, the monkey belongs to God, the snake belongs to God, the human beings belong to God and everything in this universe belongs to God.
3 - Thus the major difference between the Hindu and the Muslim beliefs is the difference of the apostrophe ‘s’. The Hindu says everything is God. The Muslim says everything is God’s
4 - In Islam, all humans are created equal. For example, there is no superiority of an Arab over a non-Arab, or vice versa. Blacks and whites have no superiority over each other. The same holds with any other nationality or ethnicity. Islam rejects characterizing God in any human form or depicting Him as favoring certain individuals or nations on the basis of wealth, power or race. He created the human beings as equals. They may distinguish themselves and get His favor through virtue and piety only
5- Muslims eat all wholesome and good food including meat of Cow (beef), lamb, goat, and chicken.
6-Muslims believe that each person has a body and soul. At death, your body is separated from your soul. Your faith and actions in this life will determine your fate in the Life After Death. There is a Day of Judgment when this life will come to an end for every one, and all humans from Adam to the last person, will be brought to a second life, rejoining of your body and soul. On that Day, God will put people in Hell or Heaven based on their beliefs and deeds of this life. ......................................... (B) Hinduism 1-Hinduism is commonly perceived as a polytheistic religion. Indeed, most Hindus would attest to this, by professing belief in multiple Gods. While some Hindus believe in the existence of three gods, some believe in thousands of gods, and some others in thirty three crore i.e. 330 million Gods. However, learned Hindus, who are well versed in their scriptures, insist that a Hindu should believe in and worship only one God.
2- The major difference between the Hindu and the Muslim perception of God is the common Hindus’ belief in the philosophy of Pantheism. Pantheism considers everything, living and non-living, to be Divine and Sacred. The common Hindu, therefore, considers everything as God. He considers the trees as God, the sun as God, the moon as God, the monkey as God, the snake as God and even human beings as manifestations of God!
3- Hinduism has a caste system, with four major castes. Members of each are required by strict religious laws to follow certain hereditary occupations and to refrain from intermarriage or eating with members of the other castes. The highest, or priestly and intellectual, caste is that of the Brahmans. The remaining three in order are Kshatriya (ruling or warrior caste), Vaisya (common artisan and agricultural caste), and the Sudras (the low caste people).
4-Cow is a sacred animal and a deity for Hindus. Cows, therefore, can not be killed or eaten in Hinduism.
5- Hinduism believes in body and soul. Your soul returns to your body after your death. This cycle repeats seven times according to some. Your status or caste in next life depends on your deeds of the previous life. This is called Reincarnation in Hinduism.
[This message has been edited by ah_farrag (edited 06 December 2004).]
[This message has been edited by ah_farrag (edited 06 December 2004).]
posted
Dear ah Farrag, Do you presume that I am so ignorant that I dont know the difference between the Hindu and the Moslem?
As usual, my POINT is completely ignored by these ostritches.
What I said was that I CAN ADAPT my thinking to see all sides of the "clothing" which religions dress themselves up in. Take away the animal sacrifice, this and that ritual, this and that piece of paganism retained in the religion, SEE with the intellect, and you will find when all this clobber is removed, there underneath is the TRUTH.
Now the TRUTH here is that YOU are BLIND to the truth, because some truth is more truthful than the truth. I can do something which you cant do. I can believe in people, and for you that is not possible because you cant even believe in yourself. If you cant believe in yourself how then can you believe in anything. It is very explicit in the Koran THOSE WHO KNOW THEMSELVES KNOW GOD. You know neither.
posted
Dear sokarya, if you have so many questions on islam and have taken such an interest to it enought to have a Quran, why dont you find a mosque or islamic center where you live in the uk and go to them for all these answer and possibly debate this with them. i know of a good one in machester and of someone you could read their books and sermons, and possibly speak to them about this issue.
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quote:Originally posted by sokarya@hotmail.com: Dear ah Farrag, Do you presume that I am so ignorant that I dont know the difference between the Hindu and the Moslem?
As usual, my POINT is completely ignored by these ostritches.
What I said was that I CAN ADAPT my thinking to see all sides of the "clothing" which religions dress themselves up in. Take away the animal sacrifice, this and that ritual, this and that piece of paganism retained in the religion, SEE with the intellect, and you will find when all this clobber is removed, there underneath is the TRUTH.
Now the TRUTH here is that YOU are BLIND to the truth, because some truth is more truthful than the truth. I can do something which you cant do. I can believe in people, and for you that is not possible because you cant even believe in yourself. If you cant believe in yourself how then can you believe in anything. It is very explicit in the Koran THOSE WHO KNOW THEMSELVES KNOW GOD. You know neither.
Charlie
It seems that u dont know anything about Islam. And the evidence: u make a comparison between Islam and Hindu.
I have never read so much nonsense in one single topic, but I am really too tired to answer all this. It will not make a sense at all, because who has closed eyes and a closed heart will never be able to follow the truth. And who read the wrong books from wrong teachers has lost, except if this one has an own freeworking mind. There are many good books on the market which explains the koran for us - hadithcollections from Buchari, moslem or malik. Just read them in a quite corner and let you brain work...for yourself, with a lot of space for the reality.
posted
Dear Kitakat, Why do you presume I need to go to a Mosque? When it comes to Islam, its quite obvious I know more than you dear, which is the entire point of the debate. Do you have any idea how many years I have been studying religion? If you did, you would not make such ridiculous comments.
posted
hi sokarya, i am inviting you to another forum where you can speak with people about your topics and get the real answers you want that i cannot supposedly give you. Please have an open mind and check this out...There are muslims there who can answer your questions more in detail than i can...thanks.. it is AlJamaat@groups.msn.com.
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posted
Thanks Kitakat, I am a little busy today with some other matters, but as soon as I can I will contact the forum you kindly left on the Koran page. Thanks again. Charlie.
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