You will find a section about political parties and it gives a general describition and history of some parties. It doesn't seem updated recently though.
[This message has been edited by Troubles101 (edited 05 August 2005).]
posted
Salaam Newcomer, ezzayik? Tamam?. I'm still here. ya3ni been a bit busy and a bit down due to some things happned to me lately in one of those protests.
That website doesn't have much knowledge bas, I think it gives some basic knowledge about some political parties here. You gotta hurry with learning arabic as this will open the door for many things "sabiri we ejtahidi ...Rapena ye3inek"
Are you interested in personal blogs written by some Kefayah members?It has updated news and pictures of political events around here
posted
Alhamdu lillah, I’m tammam, but it sounds like you need those dua more than me at the moment! I have been following the news and all it does is just show the contradiction between the words and the deeds! May Allah protect you and all those struggling for betterment, and be your guide all your actions. Just hold onto your deen, it will get you through!
You have no idea how frustrated I am about my lack of Arabic, but my circumstances just don’t allow me to do any more than I am doing at the moment, insha Allah the way will be opened one day soon. The website was a great help as it gives me the basic structure to hang the news onto to make more sense of it. I am trying to keep up with some of the local news, but if you have some particular blogs in English (for the time being of course) I would be interested. I occasionally go to one by Baheyya, which has had some useful insights.
quote:Originally posted by newcomer: Alhamdu lillah, I’m tammam, but it sounds like you need those dua more than me at the moment! I have been following the news and all it does is just show the contradiction between the words and the deeds! May Allah protect you and all those struggling for betterment, and be your guide all your actions. Just hold onto your deen, it will get you through!
You have no idea how frustrated I am about my lack of Arabic, but my circumstances just don’t allow me to do any more than I am doing at the moment, insha Allah the way will be opened one day soon. The website was a great help as it gives me the basic structure to hang the news onto to make more sense of it. I am trying to keep up with some of the local news, but if you have some particular blogs in English (for the time being of course) I would be interested. I occasionally go to one by Baheyya, which has had some useful insights.
Alhamdulellah, Ennek bekhair, since you know Baheya (http://baheyya.blogspot.com/) , it will guide you to some other intersting blogs.
Thank you for the encouragment (shukran 3ala il tashgee3), I usually don't think much of what happened. I do tend to take the bad things lightly in a cool way and drop them behind after they are over but sometimes one can't help not to think about how one gets himself treated badly while most other people would watch and keep saying mafeesh faida (noway) .Perhaps it's not written for us to see the result we hope for in our life but at least we can help making things easier for others to come after us Insh'Allah. yallah ma'lishi
Il mohem, from the little arabic you wrote before you seemed to have a good understanding of it. insh'allah you will find ways to improve it to the level you want
quote:Originally posted by Troubles101: Salaam Newcomer, ezzayik? Tamam?. I'm still here. ya3ni been a bit busy and a bit down due to some things happned to me lately in one of those protests.
That website doesn't have much knowledge bas, I think it gives some basic knowledge about some political parties here. You gotta hurry with learning arabic as this will open the door for many things "sabiri we ejtahidi ...Rapena ye3inek"
Are you interested in personal blogs written by some Kefayah members?It has updated news and pictures of political events around here
hey troubles. i didn't know you're involved with kefaya? a friend of mine attends all their protests. she showed me some horrible pictures of the "baltageya" beating the protestors. i havne't yet formed an opinion about kifaya myself yet. although i do agree that it is a time for change. but a friend of mine told me that kifaya won't work becaue theyre just screaming slogans without having an alternative plan? is that true?
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Troubles101: I lost some intersting links I wanted to share with you but will try to find them again...
Thank you for the encouragment (shukran 3ala il tashgee3), I usually don't think much of what happened. I do tend to take the bad things lightly in a cool way and drop them behind after they are over but sometimes one can't help not to think about how one gets himself treated badly while most other people would watch and keep saying mafeesh faida (noway) .Perhaps it's not written for us to see the result we hope for in our life but at least we can help making things easier for others to come after us Insh'Allah. yallah ma'lishi
I checked out your links and they tell a very sad story in some ways, but in others they give hope that some people are at least trying to do something. Personally, I am not sure whether demonstrations are the correct way to effect change, but when legitimate ways of making people's voices heard are not available, perhaps this is the only way. At least voices are being heard, ideas discussed, and awareness raised, insha Allah it will lead to positive change, and in your lifetime (may it be a long and productive one, fi sabil Allah). Just make sure you check your qalb and your deen before you do anything, then let your aql make the decision!
quote:Originally posted by 7aya: hey troubles. i didn't know you're involved with kefaya? a friend of mine attends all their protests. she showed me some horrible pictures of the "baltageya" beating the protestors. i havne't yet formed an opinion about kifaya myself yet. although i do agree that it is a time for change. but a friend of mine told me that kifaya won't work becaue theyre just screaming slogans without having an alternative plan? is that true?
7aya,
I'm not restricting myself into a specific group, I'm up for any good cause nomater who runs iteven if it's our government (7okomatana arasheeda)
You will find it was cofounded by people from different political backgrounds however their goal is the same; mainly ending dictatorship and corruption which took over almost everything and resulted in economic depression, high unemployment rate, humilation, moral decline and controlled biased media.
It doesn't matter who wins; what matters is "changeing" the current depressing system to a new system where freedom of expression, democracy, and human rights will be present.
quote:Originally posted by newcomer: I checked out your links and they tell a very sad story in some ways, but in others they give hope that some people are at least trying to do something. Personally, I am not sure whether demonstrations are the correct way to effect change, but when legitimate ways of making people's voices heard are not available, perhaps this is the only way. At least voices are being heard, ideas discussed, and awareness raised, insha Allah it will lead to positive change, and in your lifetime (may it be a long and productive one, fi sabil Allah). Just make sure you check your qalb and your deen before you do anything, then let your aql make the decision!
وإذ قالت أمة منهم لم تعظون قوما الله مهلكهم أو معذبهم عذابا شديدا قالوا معذرة إلى ربكم ولعلهم يتقون
"And when a community among them said: Why preach ye to a folk whom Allah is about to destroy or punish with an awful doom, they said: In order to be free from guilt before your Lord, and that haply they may ward off (evil). "
You will find it was cofounded by people from different political backgrounds however their goal is the same; mainly ending dictatorship and corruption which took over almost everything and resulted in economic depression, high unemployment rate, humilation, moral decline and controlled biased media.
It doesn't matter who wins; what matters is "changeing" the current depressing system to a new system where freedom of expression, democracy, and human rights will be present.
Troubles, hope you don't mind me jumping in on this thread. I find Egyptian politics to be quite fascinating and wish your country the best of luck in moving forward. I don't know enough about the candidates who are running to form any opinion on them, but coming from a fairly free society, I know what kinds of problems you guys might be in if you become more democratic. Are the candidates aware of that? Is there a plan in place to try to minimize problems?
One of the worst things about my free society is all the crime that is present because there are still some very poor people. In addition, having so much freedom also unfortunately gives us the freedom to make poor choices (hence Enron accounting scandals) And as you know when the Iron Curtain fell and the former soviet countries became autonomous, their crime rates went up, too. It's easier in an autocracy to curb crime. Not *as* easy in a democracy. And I am concerned if another party wins the election, and crime *does* increase, it will be used as an excuse to reinstitute authoritarian power.
I fell in love with the lack of crime in Egypt and truly hope that is one thing that remains. I hope that is something inherent in the culture of Egyptians (lack of criminal activity). If so, I do believe Egypt, under a more democratized government, has a great chance at becoming a free and powerful society, a great model for us all. I'd be interested if anyone has talked about this possibility. In any event, I wish you and Egypt all the best.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Troubles101: وإذ قالت أمة منهم لم تعظون قوما الله مهلكهم أو معذبهم عذابا شديدا قالوا معذرة إلى ربكم ولعلهم يتقون
"And when a community among them said: Why preach ye to a folk whom Allah is about to destroy or punish with an awful doom, they said: In order to be free from guilt before your Lord, and that haply they may ward off (evil). "
Jazak Allah khairan for the ayah, I knew the meaning, but not the specific verse. The why is not in doubt, it’s the what and the how that takes more delving for!
And Snoozin, an autocracy will only control crime better than a democracy if the autocracy is an honest one and not a main beneficiary; a democracy or at least more accountability, in theory, should give more checks and balances.
quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: I fell in love with the lack of crime in Egypt and truly hope that is one thing that remains. I hope that is something inherent in the culture of Egyptians (lack of criminal activity).
Snoozin I agree that there may be a lack of crime on the streets in Egypt but you need to look a bit deeper and see the very high levels of other types of crime taking place. You mention the Enron scandal in America, but try and find one single set of correctly stated audited accounts in Egypt, or one correct full declaration of income/ corporate taxes,or purchase taxes. It doubt that it exists. Fraudulent trading and corruption are the norm, start to have a look at Customs practices to make your hair stand on end. It is these types of crimes that are holding the country back and leading to poverty and lack of economic progress.
It has often be said to me that Western countries are far more Islamic, people pay their taxes, have a high level of accountability and as a result wealth gets redistributed to the poor in the form of social security and state pensions, and many countries also having free health services, education etc.
posted
Penny I agree with you, but I don't agree that there is not crime everyday on the streets of Egypt because it is.
I think people misunderstand when they say Egypt has a low crime rate, they mean "violent" crime, like murder, rape, armed robbery, etc., and that's only because the punishment there is so severe, not because they are more ethical than western countries.
Egypt is filled with corruption in every element of goverment, many foreigners find themselves "bribing" everyone, and Snoozin will discover this for herself if she ever moves to Egypt. Most of the police force in Egypt can be bribed, and hence many crimes go unreported, so on the surface it appears that crime is low.
I have to say that many Egyptians commit crimes of dishonesty (of course it happens all over the world, before 7aya jumps down my throat ) but it is quite prevalent in Egypt, compared to the rest of the Arab world, many gulf arabs will declare that Egyptians are the most corrupt and untrustworthy amongst them, and they are the furthest removed from their islamic values.
Because of tourism, the sale of alcohol, gambling, unethical orfi sexual activities encouraged, undercover prostitution in many of the big hotels, paying off customs and many other lowly paid government officials is the norm. Doctors performing illegal hymen restoration on a regular basis. Honestly we are told that more than 50% of all single Egyptian women are not even virgins before marriage. Believe me it's not enough foreign women in the country to satisfy the lust of several million horny young men, so either A. They're getting their satisfactio from Egyptian women, or B. They are engaged in gay activity. It's a very hypocritical society, they put on a social face, but behind closed doors, the true face is revealed. All of those orphans from unwed mothers, didn't just appear on the streets of Egypt overnight!
Some of the biggest con artist can be found there, we have lost thousands of dollars dealing with such hypocrites, so yes I have an axe to grind.
If I had to point out where the most honest Egyptians are I would have to say felahim in places like Aswan or the many towns in the Delta, but definitely not the big cities Cairo and Alex, surely not Luxor, Sharm, or Hurghada, any large tourist places.
Because in the end rather a gun is put to your head and all your money is demanded, or some sweet promising words are given to you in exchange, either way in the end you come up short of your cash!
quote:Originally posted by Penny: Snoozin I agree that there may be a lack of crime on the streets in Egypt but you need to look a bit deeper and see the very high levels of other types of crime taking place. You mention the Enron scandal in America, but try and find one single set of correctly stated audited accounts in Egypt, or one correct full declaration of income/ corporate taxes,or purchase taxes. It doubt that it exists. Fraudulent trading and corruption are the norm, start to have a look at Customs practices to make your hair stand on end. It is these types of crimes that are holding the country back and leading to poverty and lack of economic progress.
It has often be said to me that Western countries are far more Islamic, people pay their taxes, have a high level of accountability and as a result wealth gets redistributed to the poor in the form of social security and state pensions, and many countries also having free health services, education etc.
That's very interesting -- no, I definitely know nothing about how Egyptian business works. I knew there was corruption, but I didn't know the extent of it. Argh.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: Sorry, troubles, if I stirred something up. I sincerely was interested in this. Take care. Susan
My view of Egypt may be (probably is) skewed -- I don't know. I just see a society that has a lot of plusses that America doesn't have. Of course, Egypt has a lot of drawbacks, too. But I was hoping that with elections (probably not this one, but future ones), would help bring social progress while keeping the best of Egypt.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: Sorry, troubles, if I stirred something up. I sincerely was interested in this. Take care. Susan
Please! No need to be sorry, you have done absloutly nothing wrong!
My response was to another individual , I responded to what he/she wrote but then I felt there is no point about it. i think we are in a time where bias is the only bloack for the truth, so giving out information wont change much.
Rearding business, it's true that there is alot of corruption in almost everything official and this is one of the primary things that need to be changed here along side dictatorship. That being said, I don't see how any country would be much different in absence of rules guarding the business system.
A side note, when you live in Egypt, try to get involved within the Egyptian community, within families here and have friends. This way you will be able to understand Egyptians better than being only with encounters such as taxi drivers, tour guides or door men who are probably after business only due to their type of work.
quote:Originally posted by hassancheb: Penny I agree with you, but I don't agree that there is not crime everyday on the streets of Egypt because it is.
I think people misunderstand when they say Egypt has a low crime rate, they mean "violent" crime, like murder, rape, armed robbery, etc., and that's only because the punishment there is so severe, not because they are more ethical than western countries.
Egypt is filled with corruption in every element of goverment, many foreigners find themselves "bribing" everyone, and Snoozin will discover this for herself if she ever moves to Egypt. Most of the police force in Egypt can be bribed, and hence many crimes go unreported, so on the surface it appears that crime is low.
I have to say that many Egyptians commit crimes of dishonesty (of course it happens all over the world, before 7aya jumps down my throat ) but it is quite prevalent in Egypt, compared to the rest of the Arab world, many gulf arabs will declare that Egyptians are the most corrupt and untrustworthy amongst them, and they are the furthest removed from their islamic values.
Because of tourism, the sale of alcohol, gambling, unethical orfi sexual activities encouraged, undercover prostitution in many of the big hotels, paying off customs and many other lowly paid government officials is the norm. Doctors performing illegal hymen restoration on a regular basis. Honestly we are told that more than 50% of all single Egyptian women are not even virgins before marriage. Believe me it's not enough foreign women in the country to satisfy the lust of several million horny young men, so either A. They're getting their satisfactio from Egyptian women, or B. They are engaged in gay activity. It's a very hypocritical society, they put on a social face, but behind closed doors, the true face is revealed. All of those orphans from unwed mothers, didn't just appear on the streets of Egypt overnight!
Some of the biggest con artist can be found there, we have lost thousands of dollars dealing with such hypocrites, so yes I have an axe to grind.
If I had to point out where the most honest Egyptians are I would have to say felahim in places like Aswan or the many towns in the Delta, but definitely not the big cities Cairo and Alex, surely not Luxor, Sharm, or Hurghada, any large tourist places.
Because in the end rather a gun is put to your head and all your money is demanded, or some sweet promising words are given to you in exchange, either way in the end you come up short of your cash!
i agree that there is alot of crime in egypt but there is no such thing as "where honest egyptians are" there are good and bad egyptians in every city. also not just because gulf arabs say egyptians are corrupt it means we are, they are not god, so what they say is not necessaritly the truth. and in all honesty most attacks i've heard are directed towards the lebanese not the egyptians. they are known to be nasaybeen and users.
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Penny: Hey Troubles that sounds far too defeatest from you, we were just trying to get snoozing to take off the rose coloured spectacles for a while.
I think any one read my words in this thread will see that I do criticize Egyptian systems in front of people who praise their own countries and culture day and night here, yet I have no problem with it but there is difference between fair criticism and just having a joy in putting other down.
Someone who says "We are told " so and such or that "gulf arab "said so and such is certainly not trying to help anyone but his self sickness.
Penny, I don't think your comment would be the same if this thread was about your country and someone came along saying that out of each 10 British women, only 2 are not "Easy" and so on...Whatever you guys think, have it your way. Khalas!
You will find it was cofounded by people from different political backgrounds however their goal is the same; mainly ending dictatorship and corruption which took over almost everything and resulted in economic depression, high unemployment rate, humilation, moral decline and controlled biased media.
It doesn't matter who wins; what matters is "changeing" the current depressing system to a new system where freedom of expression, democracy, and human rights will be present.
troubles, thank you for the info on kefaya. as i said i'm having a problem formulating an opinion. one of my friends attends all the protests and when she tells me the slogans they say and the changes these people are striving for i feel very happy and i feel there is hope. however, i always get disappointed when i hear other people's opinion. a friend of mine told me that what kifaya are doing is not enough. if they were really serious they wouldn't just shout kifaya kifaya but would have an alternative plan for the current problems in egypt. i mean you just can't say kefaya batala, you need to find a solution for that batala. like you i realy want a different egypt. egypt has so much potential but its crippled from corruption and so many rigid factors. people like you and i and others believe that one day there can be a difference. but what about others who keep saying well kifaya for kifaya?
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by 7aya: troubles, thank you for the info on kefaya. as i said i'm having a problem formulating an opinion. one of my friends attends all the protests and when she tells me the slogans they say and the changes these people are striving for i feel very happy and i feel there is hope. however, i always get disappointed when i hear other people's opinion. a friend of mine told me that what kifaya are doing is not enough. if they were really serious they wouldn't just shout kifaya kifaya but would have an alternative plan for the current problems in egypt. i mean you just can't say kefaya batala, you need to find a solution for that batala. like you i realy want a different egypt. egypt has so much potential but its crippled from corruption and so many rigid factors. people like you and i and others believe that one day there can be a difference. but what about others who keep saying well kifaya for kifaya?
I understand you but the problem is that Kefaya is not one single political party with one single agenda, that's why it's hard to present a single plan for all our problems at the moment. I don't think presenting alternative plans at the moment is of any importance, in fact I can tell you that some of our government every year plans are fascinating but the problem is not about which plans to follow, they all will fail as long as the government corruption goes on. First of all there must be strict rules to end the current corruption and ways for people to participate effectivly in things. Look for example about projects of building new cities while it's good plan yet there is a huge amount of money wasted due to the government internal corruption where connections (kosa wasayet mahsobiyat shailni wa shaylak etc etc) takes most of it, and same goes with media and education. and when people see those things done without corrected, everyone in turn started to work his own way only and it becomes a mess. If you're football fan, you will know no matter how good is the coach, he can't do anything if the atmosphere is not good.
quote:Originally posted by Troubles101: Penny, I don't think your comment would be the same if this thread was about your country and someone came along saying that out of each 10 British women, only 2 are not "Easy" and so on...Whatever you guys think, have it your way. Khalas!
quote:Originally posted by hassancheb: Oh and Snoozin "in my opinion" out of 10 Egyptians, you may be able to trust 2 of them! So please don't allow the smiling faces to fool you!
Hopefully your fiance' family are country people and haven't learned the conning city ways as of yet.
Just like any poor country, people do what they have to do to survive, Egypt is no exception.
The armed violence is low, because USA prisons look like school yards compared to Egypt!
I disagree with several statements: 1- Country people are much worse than city people..they're all snakes 2- most cairenes I know are the most helpful, honest and hospitable people on earth , real people . You must have been going to the very wrong places.Your sound very sour about your experience here. I regret it 3- What gulf arabs say or don't say is simply out of sheer envy and should definitely not be taken seriously. It is true that I am an egyptian but I am certainly not a bigot and can assure you the majority of people here - people you have obviously never met - are the nicest , sweetest , and most honest people in the world.
quote:Originally posted by Troubles101: Please! No need to be sorry, you have done absloutly nothing wrong! Rearding business, it's true that there is alot of corruption in almost everything official and this is one of the primary things that need to be changed here along side dictatorship. That being said, I don't see how any country would be much different in absence of rules guarding the business system.
A side note, when you live in Egypt, try to get involved within the Egyptian community, within families here and have friends. This way you will be able to understand Egyptians better than being only with encounters such as taxi drivers, tour guides or door men who are probably after business only due to their type of work.
I did get a lot of interaction with my fiance's business partners and their respective families, and of course my fiance's family is very large by American standards and I met a lot of cousins and other distant relatives. Folks who work in all sorts of businesses, government, military, banking, and otherwise. I don't know, honestly, if they are the *corrupt* people being spoken of or not. I do know my fiance is an extraordinarily honest and hard-working man.
I went to his business partners' office most mornings and got to see how their business, at least, works. All I know there is that the men were yelling and screaming at each other in Arabic in heated debates all the time, but my fiance says things just get heated in Egypt, it doesn't mean anything personal and they are always friends at the end of the day.
There are bad things in every country - I know that. I have a hard time with the bad things in my own country, but I am by nature optimistic, and I do wish the best for Egypt.
[This message has been edited by Snoozin (edited 08 August 2005).]
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by hassancheb: Oh and Snoozin "in my opinion" out of 10 Egyptians, you may be able to trust 2 of them! So please don't allow the smiling faces to fool you!
Hopefully your fiance' family are country people and haven't learned the conning city ways as of yet.
Just like any poor country, people do what they have to do to survive, Egypt is no exception.
The armed violence is low, because USA prisons look like school yards compared to Egypt!
Nope, they are Cairenes for generations. They are very kind and hardworking people.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by hassancheb: Penny I agree with you, but I don't agree that there is not crime everyday on the streets of Egypt because it is.
I think people misunderstand when they say Egypt has a low crime rate, they mean "violent" crime, like murder, rape, armed robbery, etc., and that's only because the punishment there is so severe, not because they are more ethical than western countries. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ You still have to admit it , the "violent" crime rate here is much much lower than in any of your big cities..I feel much safer here than walking in the streets of NY , Chicago, London or Paris. I can go anywhere, anytime and never feel unsafe - People are still more ethical than in most western countries +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Egypt is filled with corruption in every element of goverment, many foreigners find themselves "bribing" everyone, and Snoozin will discover this for herself if she ever moves to Egypt. Most of the police force in Egypt can be bribed, and hence many crimes go unreported, so on the surface it appears that crime is low.
I have to say that many Egyptians commit crimes of dishonesty (of course it happens all over the world, before 7aya jumps down my throat ) but it is quite prevalent in Egypt, compared to the rest of the Arab world, many gulf arabs will declare that Egyptians are the most corrupt and untrustworthy amongst them, and they are the furthest removed from their islamic values.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You are clearly not aware that many of the western governments are as corrupt or even more corrupt than any "element" of our government - ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Because of tourism, the sale of alcohol, gambling, unethical orfi sexual activities encouraged, undercover prostitution in many of the big hotels, paying off customs and many other lowly paid government officials is the norm. Doctors performing illegal hymen restoration on a regular basis. Honestly we are told that more than 50% of all single Egyptian women are not even virgins before marriage. Believe me it's not enough foreign women in the country to satisfy the lust of several million horny young men, so either A. They're getting their satisfactio from Egyptian women, or B. They are engaged in gay activity. It's a very hypocritical society, they put on a social face, but behind closed doors, the true face is revealed. All of those orphans from unwed mothers, didn't just appear on the streets of Egypt overnight!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
So? that makes egyptians hypocrits but not "violent" ?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Some of the biggest con artist can be found there, we have lost thousands of dollars dealing with such hypocrites, so yes I have an axe to grind. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ You have obviously not worked with con artists in the west.. I have just bought equipment in the US from a company that is listed on "better business" for a huge amount of money..the company and its owners have disapeared.. my money with it. I have an axe to grind too. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
If I had to point out where the most honest Egyptians are I would have to say felahim in places like Aswan or the many towns in the Delta, but definitely not the big cities Cairo and Alex, surely not Luxor, Sharm, or Hurghada, any large tourist places. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ You cannot generalize ..and then fellahins are only in the delta not in aswan. Fellahins to me - a real egyptian with real egyptian experience - are a lot worse than people in the big cities. Again you cannot generalize about large tourist places, it is not true. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Because in the end rather a gun is put to your head and all your money is demanded, or some sweet promising words are given to you in exchange, either way in the end you come up short of your cash!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ At least you are not murdered for your money ...I would rather be short of cash than found dead in a US city for my wrist watch!!! +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You've got it wrong Horemheb..again, I need to stress that you are generalizing based on your bad experience, you are sour, it is obvious. But I am sour too, does this make me say that all US businesses are thieves because of one bad experience? Again..I strongly believe that egyptians are still..very honest, caring, hospitable, genuine and good people. What will happen as a result of the forced -democracy we are facing is another story. Your forced democracy on Iraq has not been very successful has it? Iraq was the only secular state in the arab world , yes rules by a dictator but how many people did he actually kill compared to the hundreds of thousands that have died since the US decided he was a bad guy? what hope does any iraqi have now ? You just got it all wrong. If Iraqis wanted to be freed , they would have done so in due course..Your US - corrupt government and yes , it si corrupt big time if you compare it to our micro-players here, is ruining the world out of greed.
posted
You sound as trivial as these poor women who have had a bad experience with some egyptian man and cry out loud " beware of egyptian gigolos..all egyptian men are sweet talkers and bad" Putting them all in one basket. Your bitterness is however very interesting, you must have gone through hell when in Egypt. Again , I am sorry about that, for you.
Posts: 1516 | From: Cairo | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by primak: You've got it wrong Horemheb..again, I need to stress that you are generalizing based on your bad experience, you are sour, it is obvious. But I am sour too, does this make me say that all US businesses are thieves because of one bad experience? Again..I strongly believe that egyptians are still..very honest, caring, hospitable, genuine and good people. What will happen as a result of the forced -democracy we are facing is another story. Your forced democracy on Iraq has not been very successful has it? Iraq was the only secular state in the arab world , yes rules by a dictator but how many people did he actually kill compared to the hundreds of thousands that have died since the US decided he was a bad guy? what hope does any iraqi have now ? You just got it all wrong. If Iraqis wanted to be freed , they would have done so in due course..Your US - corrupt government and yes , it si corrupt big time if you compare it to our micro-players here, is ruining the world out of greed.
Hi, Primak. Are you saying that becoming more of a democracy is going to be *bad* for Egypt? (Which was the original point of my question).
And I gotta agree on the corruption aspect of the US government. Little government officials don't get bribed on an everyday basis, but there are some *huge* deals that go down that are extraordinarily unethical.
I do have to say, though, when really bad things get uncovered, like Enron, we do change laws to help minimize the possibility of such corruption in the future. Although, what's done is done and people have truly suffered for it.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Bribery is there..in the west..you simply have not had to deal with it.
Yes, I believe - this is my personal opinion - democracy ( western style) cannot be thrown onto people and forced on them the way the Bush administration wants it. People have to be educated first..they have to know what it is all about, specially people who have never experienced it.
The US would have been a lot more genuine if they had invested in thousands of schools around egypt, wiping out the ignorance that forces young people into extremism...but no, they think their system is the best.
Well is it the best? why are there such poor and desperate people in the US? why are the african americans treated as second class citizen? why is there so much crime and hatred in the US ? what is so good about your democracy? chosing between Bush and Clinton? an idiot and a pervert-liar? what is it you are so proud of?
quote:Originally posted by primak: Well is it the best? why are there such poor and desperate people in the US? why are the african americans treated as second class citizen? why is there so much crime and hatred in the US ? what is so good about your democracy? chosing between Bush and Clinton? an idiot and a pervert-liar? what is it you are so proud of?
I never said democracy was perfect. My belief is that democracy is always on the edge of chaos. But I like it the best because there is always a legitimate avenue for change.
And I wouldn't say the treatment of African Americans is second class anymore. Is there racism? Of course. But African Americans have many more choices and opportunities than they did just 30 years ago.
And I have been poor in America. I have never seen someone in the US as desperately poor as the poor in developing countries. Our system is *far* from perfect and it is one of the things I'm trying to fix. But our most fragile people have free health care, monthly allowances, food subsidies, and some free education/training.
A democracy allowed us to try and correct our problems (slavery, poverty, sexism, racism). Nothing is perfect, but there is *measurable progress.* Being able to effect change gives people hope that there is a better life.
I don't know if pride is the right word for what I feel about my country. I am thankful that I was able, as a woman, to go to law school and become an attorney, something that would have been very difficult 50 years ago. I am thankful I wasn't tracked through certain programs in high school based on test scores, which can be arbitrary and not always the best indicators of intelligence or future success. I am thankful for the fact I could be a cashier at Wal-Mart or president if I really wanted to. And I am thankful I can change that decision tomorrow.
I am thankful for the laws that require baby seats for kids in cars. I am thankful for a country that cares about safety standards in general. I am thankful for a country that cares (well, some do) about environmental issues.
I am thankful that there are laws in place to protect women from violence committed in the home. It is now illegal to hit one's wife or children. It is now illegal to force sex on one's wife (or husband). That may sound insignificant, but when you look how women have been treated throughout most of record history as property belonging to men, that's amazing to me.
I am thankful for an excellent public school system from which I benefitted immensely. I was born into a fairly poor family with little means, but I was able to learn enough to qualify for higher education. I now lead an upper-middle class life and am able to help out my parents and brother when needed.
You may not like Bush or Clinton (I actually don't like them, either). But we've got Eleanor Roosevelt, Martin Luther King, Jr., JFK, Carl Sagan, Albert Einstein, Jonas Salk, and Harriet Tubman. Some were born here. Others chose it. I admire all of them.
And I am also thankful that I have been able to earn enough money to travel to see France and Germany and Switzerland, Montreal, Puebla Mexico, and finally, Egypt. My parents have never set foot out of the country. They are thankful their children were able to successful in life.
No government or country is perfect. But we have a system that gives every person a voice, and with that comes hope and the ability to change.
[This message has been edited by Snoozin (edited 08 August 2005).]
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Horemheb, I regretfully am going to have to bombard you with cut/pastes..that will maybe help you realize that the west is not particularly as corrupt free as you tend to believe: Corruption of Law Enforcement Officers & Public Officials
A 1998 report by the General Accounting Office notes, "...several studies and investigations of drug-related police corruption found on-duty police officers engaged in serious criminal activities, such as (1) conducting unconstitutional searches and seizures; (2) stealing money and/or drugs from drug dealers; (3) selling stolen drugs; (4) protecting drug operations; (5) providing false testimony; and (6) submitting false crime reports."
Source: General Accounting Office, Report to the Honorable Charles B. Rangel, House of Representatives, Law Enforcement: Information on Drug-Related Police Corruption (Washington, DC: USGPO, May 1998), p. 8.
A 1998 report by the General Accounting Office cites examples of publicly disclosed drug-related police corruption in the following cities: Atlanta, Chicago, Cleveland, Detroit, Los Angeles, Miami, New Orleans, New York, Philadelphia, Savannah, and Washington, DC.
Source: General Accounting Office, Report to the Honorable Charles B. Rangel, House of Representatives, Law Enforcement: Information on Drug-Related Police Corruption (Washington, DC: USGPO, May 1998), p. 36-37.
Corruption caused by the illicit trade in narcotics is especially prevalent in some foreign countries. "In 1998, DEA reported that drug-related corruption existed in all branches of the [Colombian] government, within the prison system, and in the military... In November 1998, U.S. Customs and DEA personnel searched a Colombian Air Force aircraft in Florida and found 415 kilograms of cocaine and 6 kilograms of heroin."
Source: US General Accounting Office, Drug Control: Narcotics Threat from Colombia Continues to Grow (Washington, DC: USGPO, 1999), p. 15.
On average, half of all police officers convicted as a result of FBI-led corruption cases between 1993 and 1997 were convicted for drug-related offenses.
Source: General Accounting Office, Report to the Honorable Charles B. Rangel, House of Representatives, Law Enforcement: Information on Drug-Related Police Corruption (Washington, DC: USGPO, May 1998), p. 35.
As an example of police corruption, the GAO cites Philadelphia, where "Since 1995, 10 police officers from Philadelphia's 39th District have been charged with planting drugs on suspects, shaking down drug dealers for hundreds of thousands of dollars, and breaking into homes to steal drugs and cash."
Source: General Accounting Office, Report to the Honorable Charles B. Rangel, House of Representatives, Law Enforcement: Information on Drug-Related Police Corruption (Washington, DC: USGPO, May 1998), p. 37.
A 1998 report by the General Accounting Office notes, "Although profit was found to be a motive common to traditional and drug-related police corruption, New York City's Mollen Commission identified power and vigilante justice as two additional motives for drug-related police corruption."
Source: General Accounting Office, Report to the Honorable Charles B. Rangel, House of Representatives, Law Enforcement: Information on Drug-Related Police Corruption (Washington, DC: USGPO, May 1998), p. 3.
In New Orleans, 11 police officers were convicted of accepting nearly $100,000 from undercover agents to protect a cocaine supply warehouse containing 286 pounds of cocaine. The undercover portion of the investigation was terminated when a witness was killed under orders from a New Orleans police officer.
Source: General Accounting Office, Report to the Honorable Charles B. Rangel, House of Representatives, Law Enforcement: Information on Drug-Related Police Corruption (Washington, DC: USGPO, May 1998), p. 36.
A 1998 report by the General Accounting Office states, "The most commonly identified pattern of drug-related police corruption involved small groups of officers who protected and assisted each other in criminal activities, rather than the traditional patterns of non-drug-related police corruption that involved just a few isolated individuals or systemic corruption pervading an entire police department or precinct."
Source: General Accounting Office, Report to the Honorable Charles B. Rangel, House of Representatives, Law Enforcement: Information on Drug-Related Police Corruption (Washington, DC: USGPO, May 1998), p. 3.
The difficulty of maintaining an honest government while fighting a drug war was noted by the UN Drug Control Program in 1998: "In systems where a member of the legislature or judiciary, earning only a modest income, can easily gain the equivalent of some 20 months' salary from a trafficker by making one "favourable" decision, the dangers of corruption are obvious."
Source: United Nations International Drug Control Program, Technical Series Report #6: Economic and Social Consequences of Drug Abuse and Illicit Trafficking (New York, NY: UNDCP, 1998), p. 39.
According to the international monitoring group Transparency International, "Colombia has suffered the tragic consequences of endemic theft by politicians and public officials for decades. Entwined with the production and trafficking of illegal drugs, this behaviour exacerbated underdevelopment and lawlessness in the countryside, where a brutal war continues to claim the lives of some 3,500 civilians a year. A World Bank survey released in February 2002 found that bribes are paid in 50 per cent of all state contracts.27 Another World Bank report estimates the cost of corruption in Colombia at US $2.6 billion annually, the equivalent of 60 per cent of the country’s debt."
Source: Hodess, Robin (ed.), Transparency International, Global Corruption Report 2003 (Berlin, Germany: Transparency International, 2003), p. 108.
According to the international monitoring group Transparency International, "The Presidential Programme Against Corruption in Colombia specifically addresses 'narco-corruption'. Colombia, with a capacity to produce 580 tonnes of pure cocaine in 2000, is particularly poisoned by the interplay of narcotics and violence, with an estimated one million people internally displaced as a result of battles for territorial control by rebel groups and paramilitary forces. 'The corruptive effect of this kind of profit is devastating, since it has penetrated to perverse levels in the judiciary and the political system,' the official report of the Presidential Programme concluded, adding that the rapid accumulation of wealth from illegal drugs 'has fostered codes and behaviours which promote corruption, fast money and the predominance of private welfare over general interest'."
Source: Hodess, Robin (ed.), Transparency International, Global Corruption Report 2001 (Berlin, Germany: Transparency International, 2001), p. 176.
According to the international monitoring group Transparency International, "Mexico's police and armed services are known to be contaminated by multimillion dollar bribes from the transnational narco-trafficking business. Though the problem is not as pervasive in the military as it is in the police, it is widely considered to have attained the status of a national security threat."
Source: Hodess, Robin (ed.), Transparency International, Global Corruption Report 2001 (Berlin, Germany: Transparency International, 2001), p. 158.
According to the international monitoring group Transparency International, "Another problem occurs when officials turn a blind eye to a narcotics trade that looms large in the region. 'Central America has become the meat in the sandwich' - as a trans-shipment point, storehouse and money laundering centre - in the drug traffic from Colombia to the US, said Costa Rican parliamentarian Belisario Solano. The Costa Rican Defence Ministry estimates that between 50 and 70 tonnes of cocaine travel through Costa Rica to the US every year."
Source: Hodess, Robin (ed.), Transparency International, Global Corruption Report 2001 (Berlin, Germany: Transparency International, 2001), p. 160.
The United Nations Drug Control Program noted the inevitable risk of drug-related police corruption in 1998, when it reported that "wherever there is a well-organized, illicit drug industry, there is also the danger of police corruption."
Source: United Nations International Drug Control Program, Technical Series Report #6: Economic and Social Consequences of Drug Abuse and Illicit Trafficking (New York, NY: UNDCP, 1998), p. 38.
quote:Originally posted by primak: Assef gidann...Hassancheb. Taaban showaya el naharda, el shoghl keteer we daragit el habal zayda showaya and omala'i fee el gharb!
ya3ni il 3aib mosh fe issanf?
salamtak ya man
[This message has been edited by Troubles101 (edited 08 August 2005).]
posted
troubles thank you for taking the trouble to explain to me. i do have alot of reading to do. but my friend ta7amast awi ma3 kefaya and she became invovled without even understanding what its about. and personally i would like to understand first. and primak don't worry about hassancheb el weleya deeh fakra nafsaha modeeret maragee7 moulid el nabi!
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Primak save yourself all the trouble trying to point out the crime in America you idiot, no one ever said it doesn't exist!
It's so typical of you people to redirect whatever negative is said about Egypt to someone else's country. That's besides the point.
If you can't deal with the truth too bad, because no one reading this, should think they are walking into some islamic holy land when going to Egypt, because it's very misleading.
USA does not hide their face, our crime is reported daily in the newspapers, television, internet and any other media outlet, it's the reason you are able to cut and paste to began with.
Now let me ask you this, how often does "your media" report the bribes your government officials receive. When have you ever read on an "egyptian" tour site warning women of scam artist, (yes western toursites warn them) but when has an Egyptian one done the same? You can point out all the ills all over the world, but it would not change your situation, and people like you, toubles, and 7aya, need to stop getting so darn defensive, and sweeping these things under the rug.
In a narcistic society, we can only hope Egypt was all peaches and cream, but it's not, and you 3 need to deal with that!
quote:Originally posted by hassancheb: we can only hope Egypt was all peaches and cream, but it's not, and you 3 need to deal with that!
ummmmmmm hassan actually all three of us did agree that egypt has high crime levels. and it is reported daily in the newspapers, and if you know arabic which i doubt you do, you'd know that.
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
Change (even if it's democracy) must come from within the masses. There is a very beautiful saying, "don't blame your leaders - for they are the result of your deeds."
The leaders themselves come from within the people. If the people themselves - the majority - are honest, diligent, trustworthy, etc ... then those that rule will also be so. This is the problem not only in Egypt but the world over. In Pakistan, there was a huge hue and cry over the corruption of the Bhutto government. But, when elections were held - the people re-elected her !
When the populace - the ummah - desire something, Allah will make it happen. (Sorry to bring religion into it - but, it is the way I view things ... you are free to differ) I personally agree with the comment that democracy cannot be forced. There isn't democracy in Iraq - and there will never be, in the forseeable future, IMHO.
Neither is revolution the way to go about it. We have the example of Iran for that. The only way is a grass roots effort - whereby each individual is taught the benefits of becoming the better human being ... a tough and hard road - and even time consuming ... but, IMHO, the only answer.
NOTE: I am not aware of the specific political situation in Egypt - the political parties ... their agendas, etc. But, this is meant as my opinion and as a general view.
Posts: 97 | From: London, UK | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
You will find it was cofounded by people from different political backgrounds however their goal is the same; mainly ending dictatorship and corruption which took over almost everything and resulted in economic depression, high unemployment rate, humilation, moral decline and controlled biased media.
It doesn't matter who wins; what matters is "changeing" the current depressing system to a new system where freedom of expression, democracy, and human rights will be present.
Troubles, i don't suppose u have any sites about this written in English do u?
Posts: 461 | From: Kelantan, Malaysia | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by primak: 1- Country people are much worse than city people..they're all snakes
Now that is just dumb.
quote:Originally posted by primak: 2- most cairenes I know are the most helpful, honest and hospitable people on earth , real people .
It is true that I am an Egyptian but I am certainly not a bigot and can assure you the majority of people here - people you have obviously never met - are the nicest , sweetest , and most honest people in the world.
I agree but with some reservations. It is a fact that many businesses , probably the majority, operate in a very unprofessional manner and that much of what they do is considered discriminatory as well as illegal by western standards. These are the people foreigners deal with most and have very difficult time relating to.
One very big problem is how many, far too many, Egyptians relate to Non_Egyptians. There is always the implication that ,to some level, it is not so unethical to screw a foreigner. Somehow getting more money from a foreigner is considered good business.
What we do in western countries as routine turns into a nightmare in Egypt. I don't want to give examples or I will end up spamming the board.
[This message has been edited by Automatic For The People (edited 09 August 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by poppy: Troubles, i don't suppose u have any sites about this written in English do u?
Assalamu alaykum poppy,
If you check at the top of this thread, that was what Troubles was doing, giving links about Kefaya in English and also the link you quoted also has an English section too.
quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: [B] I never said democracy was perfect. My belief is that democracy is always on the edge of chaos. But I like it the best because there is always a legitimate avenue for change.
But we have a system that gives every person a voice, and with that comes hope and the ability to change.
I'm not sure what you described was Democracy but you are right on your last statement and that gives people certain rights and privileges. A system that was designed to provide Justice and not necessarily Democracy. That is what Egypt need urgently. Justice for all........Democracy can follow.
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
They are very kind and hardworking people.
Printer-friendly view of this topic