quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: Can you explain this please??? He *decided* to have a child when he had sex with a woman. Was he taking responsibility for birth control (i.e. condom/sterlization)? Even if he was, it's never 100%.
He can't undo that decision just because he didn't like the fact *he* got her pregnant. He *was* at the scene, you know.
Or are you saying she raped him somehow?
Having sex doesn't mean he wants (or decids) to have a child.
It reminds me of this film "Vanilla Sky" when Cameron Diaz in the car getting crazy at Tom Cruise says on a desperate tone:"i swallowed your cum, it means something, we did 'it' four times, four times it really means something"
Obviously, it didn't meant that much to him, she was getting crazy, for her, they had a special link.
The same link you seem to be seeing when you say that when you have sex it means that you want to have a child.
Oh, if you didn't see the film, she suicides and makes the guy handicaped.
Posts: 1473 | From: France | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Jesus Cesar: You girls are getting emotional as soon as there's a baby involved.
I'm getting the impression you are judging others by your own sterotypes instead of addressing the argument.
Just for the record – I, for one, do not get emotional when a baby is involved (in fact I am not particularly fond of babies at all and I have no desire to have one.) I do get emotional, though, when I see double standards applied and exactly this is the case here. Two people have a relationship, a child is conceived, the blame, however you turn it, is on the mother. That's neither fair nor just.
We don't know what sort of birth control they used (and it's nobody's business anyway) but obviously something went wrong and the woman ended up pregnant. I don't understand why you keep suggesting she intentionally got herself pregnant while it's quite clear that this is not the case.
Posts: 2334 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Jesus Cesar: The same link you seem to be seeing when you say that when you have sex it means that you want to have a child.
You cannot have the fun without taking on the responsibility of *any and all* results.
That is the very definition of personal responsibility.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by newcomer: Tigerlily said it was a problem in Muslim societies that they were unfair in their condemnation of women in terms of sexual relationships; in fact that has nothing to do with Muslim society. It is an international phenomenon that men still are allowed/expected to be more promiscuous than women, and they are not as condemned as women for it...even in the west!
That's exactly what I was trying to say. That's why I was trying to remove the issue from the perspective of (Islamic) religion and put it in a broader (conservative) cultural perspective.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
The standard three-step program for any unmarried, upper-class Egyptian girl who gets pregnant is an abortion, an operation to refurbish her virginity with a new hymen and then marriage to the first unwitting suitor the family can snare.
But Hind el-Hinnawy, a vivacious, 27-year-old costume designer, did the unthinkable here: She had the child and then filed a public paternity suit, igniting an unprecedented scandal and prompting a national debate over the clandestine marriage contracts that young couples are using to have sex in this conservative, religious society.
"The whole society says: 'No! No! No! Don't say this. It's shameful. It's a scandal. Go have an abortion. This girl was not well raised. She's loose,"' said Attiyat el-Abnoudi, an Egyptian documentary maker who, after hearing about the case, became so involved that she has become the child's godmother.
"The importance of this case is that it is out in the open. The whole society has to question whether it is only her, or whether the society is changing. Young people want to make love without getting married."
This case has mesmerized the country because Hinnawy says the father of her daughter is Ahmed el-Fishawy, a 24-year-old actor. He is both the scion of a family of movie stars and well-known as the host of a television talk show dispensing advice to devout Muslim youth. The show has been canceled.
Fishawy contends that he and Hinnawy never had sex and never even met off the set of the television comedy pilot, called "When Daddy Returned," where she helped create his wardrobe.
By filing suit, Hinnawy did more than just shatter a social taboo.
A legal precedent may grow out of her requesting that the court order Fishawy to submit to a DNA test to establish whether he is the father of the child, Leena, born last October with a shock of soft black hair.
DNA testing is relatively novel here, never before used to prove paternity in court.
In Egypt, and across the Arab world, respectable sex requires marriage, particularly for a woman, and especially for the first time.
Hinnawy says she and Fishawy had an urfi marriage, a practice in Sunni Islam that allows couples to marry in private with a contract they draft themselves. Urfi marriages have become more common in recent years because the combination of tough economic times and a renewed emphasis on Islamic mores means that conventional marriages remain an elusive dream for many.
Tradition dictates that a young man who wants to wed first buy an apartment, furnish it and shower his fiancée with gold jewelry - an unreachable expense for many bachelors, even those well into their 30s. High-level corporate executives and politicians who are married have also found urfi marriages a convenient means to carry on affairs with an Islamic seal of approval.
But the emphasis on such marriages is their clandestine nature - the word urfi itself has come to mean secret in Arabic - which makes reliable statistics impossible to obtain. Made public, Hinnawy's saga became the talk of Egypt.
Conservative commentators decried the demise of the traditional Egyptian family. Gossip magazines splashed the scandal across their covers. The Mufti, the highest religious authority in the country, issued an edict reminding everyone that secret marriage or no, the welfare of the baby girl was paramount.
Hinnawy said she had purposely held off telling her parents, who had already rejected four suitors as unacceptable, that she was pregnant until it was too late to abort. "I am trying to say to other people, not only girls, to try to have the courage to be responsible for what you do," she said during an interview at her family home. Her baby daughter, whom she will not allow to be photographed, was bouncing on her knee.
She lamented that Egyptians prefer hypocrisy to what they consider public disgrace. "I did the right thing: I didn't hide, and eventually he will have to give the baby his name," she said. "People prefer that a woman live a psychologically troubled life; that doesn't matter as long as it doesn't become a scandal."
Elective abortion is illegal in Egypt, but doctors are given wide leeway to interpret two general Islamic guidelines: that it is acceptable in cases where pregnancy might jeopardize the health of the mother and that the fetus gains a soul only at three months.
Abortion is an option for women with means. For women in poor Cairo neighborhoods or along the upper reaches of the Nile, out-of-wedlock pregnancies often end in death - the girl killed by her father or brother to end the public shame and cleanse the family honor.
Hinnawy's family lives in the Moqattam Hills, a favorite new suburb of Cairo's well-to-do on the eastern desert plateau overlooking the heaving metropolis. The parents - Hamdi Abdo el-Hinnawy, an economist, and Selwa Mohamed Abdel Baki, a psychology professor - acknowledge that they were appalled when their daughter first told them. Some of the extended family remain horrified.
Hamdi Hinnawy has made an unusual decision in supporting his daughter.
"I don't make the link between honor and sex," said Hamdi Hinnawy, a short, soft-spoken man whose wiry hair is shot with gray. "Honor is one thing and sex another. Any guy or girl can have sex without sacrificing their honor. Of course there are certain conditions - that there be love, for example."
On Jan. 6, the first day of arguments in the case, he was squeezing his way through the habitually packed corridors at Cairo's Family Court, trailed by television cameras, when a veiled woman screamed above the bedlam: "Go teach your daughter some values! It's a scandal, and you are filming it! Go fix your daughter's mess!"
Hamdi Hinnawy retorted: "She did not make a mess! It's only a scandal for you and those like you!"
Hind el-Hinnawy's lawyer, Mamdouh el-Waseemy, argued that Fishawy must submit to the DNA test to ensure the baby's welfare. In an interview, he said about 18,000 paternity suits were now running across Egypt. DNA was used for the first time just six months ago, in a complicated rape trial where the criminal charges trumped the paternity issue.
Waseemy said the Family Court judges were eager to find a test paternity case to push for DNA evidence, considering it far more scientific than the usual method of summoning witnesses like doormen to testify that they had seen the couple entering the same apartment.
posted
Okay, its true, even the West views and judges men differently than their women. Men who change girlfriends frequently like their underwear are considered "real men" while if a woman is doing e x a c t l y the same thing she is considered easy at one point. But f. e. if a young woman is having a boyfriend or wears a short dress than that's okay, it's the own personal right and choice, people are responsible for themselves and not even one person is screaming bad names at her. But this is exactly what is happening in a country like Egypt, people watching other people judging them and just looking out for any negative what could come up (in their eyes).
Back to little Leena. It's so sad to see that the own biological father doesn't want and doesn't have to do anything with her. That things couldn't get negociated smoothly with both families sitting together without legal help. And I always thought that Egyptians are so family-orientated - oh I forgot the "bastards" don't count.
Shame on Egypt's court system, it could have ruled in favor of the mother and the child that the positive DNA test is enough to prove that the actor fathered this child and has to recognize that little girl. What's more proving, a damn piece of paper or blood samples????
If anyone knows how to get in contact with Hinnawy I'd like to offer her help. It's tough to be a single unwed mother in the west, to be one in Egypt must be a nightmare. And thanks god that her parents are so supportive and that they deal with this situation in this kind of way - it could have been totally different.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Correction discovered; Fishawi never made a DNA test in spite of Ms. Hinawy’s request. What is more important is that the honorable court refused to put him to the test!
What does that mean? It means that there is a different perspective to the whole ordeal, this perspective is that this particular case was being “politicized” due to the lime light it enjoyed and by the case becoming a case of “public opinion” that required a certain outcome. The verdict had to sent a message to all those women out there married in an Orfi manner, that message is simple; you can marry Orfi, but we will never accept your children to be legitimate children with a father’s name. Funny enough, this decision is not based on any moral, or religious bases because there is an Islamic rule that clearly attaches the child to the “bed” i.e. the father (Al weld lel ferash). We can imagine that during the early days of the Islamic conquests, concubines were with the tens and the hundreds, over and above the legitimate four wives. At a time when there was no DNA tests and nothing to tie the kid to his father except resemblance, witnesses or “belonging to somone”, they had to recognize the child of the concubine from the master as his, either way of the above without asking her for papers, witnesses and the likes. Seems politics and a Male chauvinist court denies Ms.Hinawy to even have the right of a concubine.
Posts: 657 | From: Cairo | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Dalia: The Mufti, the highest religious authority in the country, issued an edict reminding everyone that secret marriage or no, the welfare of the baby girl was paramount.
Amen.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: Back to little Leena. It's so sad to see that the own biological father doesn't want and doesn't have to do anything with her.
As much as I think it is *critical* that children have their father in their lives, this guy seems pretty scungy to me and perhaps she is better off without him.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Sub-zero: Funny enough, this decision is not based on any moral, or religious bases because there is an Islamic rule that clearly attaches the child to the “bed” i.e. the father (Al weld lel ferash).
Could you explain that a little more for me, al weld lel ferash?
Because my gut reaction to this is that it's truly unIslamic for this guy to turn his back on his family.
BTW, I just found out this guy is a family aquaintance. Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: If anyone knows how to get in contact with Hinnawy I'd like to offer her help. It's tough to be a single unwed mother in the west, to be one in Egypt must be a nightmare.
You are very kind. I wish there were more people like you on this planet.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Sub-zero: Funny enough, this decision is not based on any moral, or religious bases because there is an Islamic rule that clearly attaches the child to the “bed” i.e. the father (Al weld lel ferash).
Could you explain that a little more for me, al weld lel ferash?
Because my gut reaction to this is that it's truly unIslamic for this guy to turn his back on his family.
BTW, I just found out this guy is a family aquaintance.
The ruling of the "child belonging to the bed" (Al weld lel ferash) applies in situations when the couple is married or concubinage, not for unmarried couples as the child is not born in the wife's husband's home on the wife's husband's bed in a legal marriage.
The Protection of the Lineage ...Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala has ordained marriage and has forbidden adultery so that paternity may be established without doubt or ambiguity and that the child may be referred to his father and the father to his sons and daughters. Through marriage a woman is reserved for one man; it is haram for her to be unfaithful to him or to let anyone else have access to what belongs exclusively to him. Thus, every child born to her in wedlock will be her husband's child, without any need for recognition or public proclamation of the fact by him or a corresponding claim on the part of the mother. "The child is attributed to the one on whose bed it is born," (Reported by al-Bukhari and Muslim. Literally: "The child belongs to the bed.") declared the Prophet of Islam (peace be on him).
The Prohibition of Denying Paternity It is not permissible for the husband to deny his paternity of any child born to his wife as long as they are married to each other. Such a denial would bring the ugliest shame imaginable upon both the wife and the child. He is, therefore, not allowed to take such a step on the basis of a mere suspicion, a sudden notion, or an evil rumor. If, however, on the basis of evidence which has come to his attention, he is convinced that his wife has betrayed him, the Shari'ah of Islam has no desire to force him to raise a child whom he believes not to be his own or to let the child be his heir, or—at the very least—to allow him to suffer from suspicion and doubt the rest of his life. A way out of this dilemma, known in Islamic jurisprudence as li'an, is provided by the Shari'ah. If a man is convinced or strongly suspects, although without having proof, that his wife has had sexual relations with another man and is carrying his child, he can take the case to a Muslim judge (qadi). The qadi will ask the man and his wife to invoke the curse of Allah on one another in the manner prescribed in Surah al-Nur: As for those who accuse their wives but have no witnesses except themselves, the testimony of one of them shall consist of bearing witness by Allah four times that he is of the truthful, and a fifth (time) that the curse of Allah be upon him if he is one of those who lie. And it shall avert the punishment from her if she bear witness by Allah four times that he is indeed of those who lie, and a fifth (time) that the wrath of Allah be upon her if he is among the truthful. (24:6-9) After this the two shall be separated permanently, and the child shall be identified by the name of his or her mother . http://www.hashmitrust.com/htm/familtright_in_islam.htmPosts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
Basically the law is saying that if a Muslim woman wants a man to give his name to her child and support it, she makes sure that she doesn't have sex with him outside marriage, because if she does and then gets pregnant the child will take her name and she will be responsible for it.
All the laws are there to support the fact that premarital and adulterous sex are forbidden in Islam. The fact that they are given corporal and capital punishments show how serious Allah was about forbidding it. This also helps to explain the root of why practicing Muslim girls' virginity is so carefully protected.
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by newcomer: This also helps to explain the root of why practicing Muslim girls' virginity is so carefully protected.
True. It does, however, not help to explain why practicing Muslim boys' virginity does not enjoy the same sort of careful protection, i.e. the double standard we've been talking about in this thread.
quote:Originally posted by newcomer: This also helps to explain the root of why practicing Muslim girls' virginity is so carefully protected.
True. It does, however, not help to explain why practicing Muslim boys' virginity does not enjoy the same sort of careful protection, i.e. the double standard we've been talking about in this thread.
The practicing Muslim boys are the ones who are helping to protect their blood sisters and sisters in Islam, and they are aware that Allah will give His justice in this world or the next...which is what the others forget! Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by newcomer: There is a huge difference between a foreign woman coming to Egypt on holiday who doesn't understand the language, customs, or law, who is told that there is a paper that allows her to sleep with the man she met on holiday, and an educated 27 Egyptian woman, who by all accounts hadn't led a pious or sheltered life, who agrees to get an orfi marriage so she can sleep with her Egyptian boyfriend. I think that the latter would be in more of a position to know how to safeguard her rights and protect herself.
In otherwords you are supporting a double standard. Which is very convenient of you.
Newcomer you completely left out the facts on Fishaway. He wasn't an angel either, but young men are expected to be little devils, besides that is what makes a man isn't it?
Even if he is quickly becoming a televangelist.
Sonomod! Why don't you put your brain into gear and think for one short second before you make your wild accusations Where on earth did I say I was supporting any double standard??? I was commenting on the situation as it is without stating any personal opinion about it!
I didn't mention Fishawi in that particular comment as I was responding to the following comment you made in which you didn't mention him, so what would have been the point of me doing so!:
quote:Hmm if a majority of older women marrying Orfi style aren't aware or wanting to hold the Orfi papers then why would a 27 year old woman be that cognative?
Go and get rid of your aggression on a fight somewhere else, I'm not playing!
No but once again Newcomer this is an issue as an older Muslimah you don't have to deal with.
If you are going to pass blame on Lina's mother then you should be passing blame on Lina's father.
But you didn't, and thats a double standard.
Whether you like it or not, you are guilty of abiding by a double standard.
Posts: 5744 | From: Minneapolis, Mn USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by newcomer: This also helps to explain the root of why practicing Muslim girls' virginity is so carefully protected.
True. It does, however, not help to explain why practicing Muslim boys' virginity does not enjoy the same sort of careful protection, i.e. the double standard we've been talking about in this thread.
The practicing Muslim boys are the ones who are helping to protect their blood sisters and sisters in Islam, and they are aware that Allah will give His justice in this world or the next...which is what the others forget!
Abiding by the double standard again.
I'd like to see an aunt or sister kill her brother, nephew and his corruptor one of these days.
Its probably a good thing that my in-laws havn't had sons yet! Posts: 5744 | From: Minneapolis, Mn USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by sonomod: No but once again Newcomer this is an issue as an older Muslimah you don't have to deal with.
If you are going to pass blame on Lina's mother then you should be passing blame on Lina's father.
But you didn't, and thats a double standard.
Whether you like it or not, you are guilty of abiding by a double standard.
a)You have no idea of my age nor what I do and do not have to deal with.
b)I was offering a suggestion to women who get involved in Orfi marriages to avoid getting caught in the same way, no blame!
c)Men and women are different physically, therefore Allah made rules to suit each of them according to their nature...equity not equality!
d) When I am talking about protection I am talking about the type of escorting and looking after that you are forever boasting that your in-laws give to you when you go out. So who lives by double standards??????
So stop talking rubbish and making insinuations that don't have any bearing on what was said, it doesn't make you look very good!
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by newcomer: c)Men and women are different physically, therefore Allah made rules to suit each of them according to their nature...equity not equality!
But chastity is required of both genders alike ... so why should there be different rules for men and women?
Posts: 2334 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by sonomod: No but once again Newcomer this is an issue as an older Muslimah you don't have to deal with.
If you are going to pass blame on Lina's mother then you should be passing blame on Lina's father.
But you didn't, and thats a double standard.
Whether you like it or not, you are guilty of abiding by a double standard.
a)You have no idea of my age nor what I do and do not have to deal with.
b)I was offering a suggestion to women who get involved in Orfi marriages to avoid getting caught in the same way, no blame!
c)Men and women are different physically, therefore Allah made rules to suit each of them according to their nature...equity not equality!
d) When I am talking about protection I am talking about the type of escorting and looking after that you are forever boasting that your in-laws give to you when you go out. So who lives by double standards??????
So stop talking rubbish and making insinuations that don't have any bearing on what was said, it doesn't make you look very good!
Very weak argument again Newcomer.
Besides I am escourted by male in-laws in Cairo, I have also noted that my best protectors are older women.
b)I was offering a suggestion to women who get involved in Orfi marriages to avoid getting caught in the same way, no blame!
I say the sky is blue, you say its black. But its 3pm here. Still posting yourself into a corner.
And you've noted the age group you belong to before. I keep a mental list of details on usernames. If you want I can go dig up those posts tomorrow or monday to signify your age.
c)Men and women are different physically, therefore Allah made rules to suit each of them according to their nature...equity not equality!
This has nothing to do with it. You are picking and chosing Jurist opinions.
Both men and women have responsibilities on this matter, it has nothing to do with the physical nature of who. It has to do with responsibilities.
Newcomer you are far more informed of these matters than I, but I will eventually find the Islamic Jurist opinions on this.
I have a feeling you are going by Hanafi opinions, while the Shari opinions might actually answer this situation better.
There are gaps between the four jurist schools, and this is a situation that has been abused in the past.
You are abusing people's lack of knowledge. And their compliance with cultural weaknesses.
In my opinion I think you feel threatened by these young Muslimahs.
Posts: 5744 | From: Minneapolis, Mn USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by newcomer: c)Men and women are different physically, therefore Allah made rules to suit each of them according to their nature...equity not equality!
But chastity is required of both genders alike ... so why should there be different rules for men and women?
She is just abusing people's ignorance.
I think I remember reading a case similar to this in Ottoman courts of 18th century Egypt.
I'll find it and rub it in her face.
Posts: 5744 | From: Minneapolis, Mn USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by newcomer: c)Men and women are different physically, therefore Allah made rules to suit each of them according to their nature...equity not equality!
But chastity is required of both genders alike ... so why should there be different rules for men and women?
The rules on chastity aren't different, as you said that requirement is the same. But who is the protected and who is the protector in a family is different, and part of that is due to the differences in physical abilities and part is to do with their sexual differences. Whether you like to acknowledge it or not, there are differences, and it is women who get pregnant and are therefore more physically vulnerable than men.
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by sonomod: And you've noted the age group you belong to before. I keep a mental list of details on usernames. If you want I can go dig up those posts tomorrow or monday to signify your age.
Feel free to waste your time, you won't find anything!
quote:This has nothing to do with it. You are picking and chosing Jurist opinions.
Both men and women have responsibilities on this matter, it has nothing to do with the physical nature of who. It has to do with responsibilities.
Newcomer you are far more informed of these matters than I, but I will eventually find the Islamic Jurist opinions on this.
I have a feeling you are going by Hanafi opinions, while the Shari opinions might actually answer this situation better.
There are gaps between the four jurist schools, and this is a situation that has been abused in the past.
You are abusing people's lack of knowledge. And their compliance with cultural weaknesses.
You are making something out of nothing here.
quote:In my opinion I think you feel threatened by these young Muslimahs.
quote:Originally posted by sonomod: And you've noted the age group you belong to before. I keep a mental list of details on usernames. If you want I can go dig up those posts tomorrow or monday to signify your age.
Feel free to waste your time, you won't find anything!
quote:This has nothing to do with it. You are picking and chosing Jurist opinions.
Both men and women have responsibilities on this matter, it has nothing to do with the physical nature of who. It has to do with responsibilities.
Newcomer you are far more informed of these matters than I, but I will eventually find the Islamic Jurist opinions on this.
I have a feeling you are going by Hanafi opinions, while the Shari opinions might actually answer this situation better.
There are gaps between the four jurist schools, and this is a situation that has been abused in the past.
You are abusing people's lack of knowledge. And their compliance with cultural weaknesses.
You are making something out of nothing here.
quote:In my opinion I think you feel threatened by these young Muslimahs.
LOL!!!!
In my opinion you are rough-shodding over this young women because you are a crone and while you recieve considerable respect as an older woman in Egypt, being that you are English you don't consider yourself too old for romance. Which would make Egypt the wrong place for you to be if you don't consider your romantic life over, and is it in Egypt. Completely over.
Just like your delusion sisterhood with Jehan Sadat, being from the same town as you in England. You've got your hangups and between Jehan and your dwindling womanhood, you should've recused yourself from making these comments but you couldn't control yourself.
I am so happy the older women in my family don't get this flaky. Posts: 5744 | From: Minneapolis, Mn USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by sonomod: In my opinion you are rough-shodding over this young women because you are a crone and while you recieve considerable respect as an older woman in Egypt, being that you are English you don't consider yourself too old for romance. Which would make Egypt the wrong place for you to be if you don't consider your romantic life over, and is it in Egypt. Completely over.
Just like your delusion sisterhood with Jehan Sadat, being from the same town as you in England. You've got your hangups and between Jehan and your dwindling womanhood, you should've recused yourself from making these comments but you couldn't control yourself.
I am so happy the older women in my family don't get this flaky.
I'll say this for you...you have a vivid imagination Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
Here's a summary of the different legal views on the subject:
Praise be to Allaah.
Firstly: we confirm that the illegitimate child has nothing to do with his parents’ crime, and that he has all the same rights as any other Muslim, male or female. He must also fear Allaah so that he may become one of the people of Paradise with whom Allaah is pleased.
Secondly: the scholars differed as to whether or not the child may be attributed to his adulterous father, if the woman was not married.
What that means is: if the woman was married and had a child six months after being married, then the child should be attributed to the father, and he cannot deny the child unless he divorces his wife by means of li’aan. If a man claims that he committed zina with this woman and that this is his illegitimate child, no attention should be paid to him, according to scholarly consensus, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “The child is to be attributed to the husband and the adulterer deserves nothing.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 2053; Muslim, 1457.
Ibn Qudaamah said: “The scholars were unanimously agreed that if a child is born to one man’s wife, and another man claims it is his child, the child is not to be attributed to the latter. The difference of opinion arises when a child is born outside of marriage.”
If the woman is not married, and she has a child as a result of zina, and the zaani (adulterer, man who committed zina) claims it is his child, should the child be attributed to him or not?
The majority of scholars are of the view that the child should not be attributed to him.
It was narrated from al-Hasan, Ibn Sireen, ‘Urwah, al-Nakha’i, Ishaaq and Sulaymaan ibn Yassaar that the child should be attributed to him.
This was also the view favoured by Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him).
Ibn Qudaamah also narrated this view from Abu Haneefah. He said: “ ‘Ali ibn ‘Aasim narrated that Abu Haneefah said: If a man commits zina with a woman and she gets pregnant from him, I do not see anything wrong with him marrying her even though she is pregnant, so as to conceal her (sin), and the child will be his child.” (al-Mughni, 9/122).
Ibn Muflih (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: Our shaykh [Ibn Taymiyah] favoured the view that a man may attribute to himself a child who is the result of zina with an unmarried woman. al-Furoo’, 6/625
Ibn Qudaamah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: The illegitimate child should not be attributed to the zaani according to the majority of scholars, but al-Hasan and Ibn Sireen said: he may be attributed to the zaani if the hadd punishment has been carried out on him, and he may inherit from him. Ibraaheem said: He may be attributed to him if the hadd punishment of flogging has been carried out, or if he becomes the owner of the woman with whom he had intercourse. Ishaaq said: He may be attributed to him, and he quoted something similar from ‘Urwah and Sulaymaan ibn Yassaar.
Shaykh al-Islam (Ibn Taymiyah) said: There are also two views among the scholars concerning the zaani claiming the child as his if the woman is not married. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The child is to be attributed to the husband and the adulterer deserves nothing.” So he said that the child belongs to the husband, not the zaani. But if the woman is not married then this hadeeth is not applicable. ‘Umar attributed children born in the jaahiliyyah to their fathers, but this is not the place to discuss this issue in detail.
Al-Fataawa al-Kubra, 3/178
The majority of scholars quoted as evidence that the illegitimate child should not be attributed to the zaani the hadeeth narrated by Ahmad (7002), Abu Dawood (2265) and Ibn Maajah (2746) from ‘Amr ibn Shu’ayb from his father from his grandfather who said: “The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) ruled that whoever is born to a slave woman who was not owned by his father, or (was born to) a free woman with whom (the father) committed zina, then he cannot be attributed to him nor can he inherit, even if the one to whom he is attributed claims him as a son. He is the child of fornication whether his mother was a free woman or a slave.”
This hadeeth was classed as hasan by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood, and by al-Arna’oot in Tahqeeq al-Musnad. It was quoted as evidence by Ibn Muflih to support the view of the majority.
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) ruled that the illegitimate child should not be attributed to the zaani and could not inherit from him, even if the zaani claimed him as his child.
Undoubtedly attributing the child to a particular person is a serious matter on which many rulings of sharee’ah depend, such as matters of inheritance, who is forbidden for marriage (mahrams) and who are his relatives.
The point is that the fatwa which says that the illegitimate child should not be attributed to the zaani is in accordance with the view of the majority of scholars.
With regard to Shaykh Ibn Jibreen (may Allaah preserve him), perhaps he based his view on the other scholarly view which we have mentioned above.
Based on the view of the majority, the illegitimate child – whether male or female – should not be attributed to the zaani, and should not be described as his child. Rather he should be attributed to his mother; he is a mahram for her and may inherit from her like all her other children.
Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “With regard to the child who is born as a result of zina, he is the child of his mother, not of his father, because of the general meaning of the hadeeth in which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘The child is to be attributed to the husband and the adulterer deserves nothing’ – i.e., this is not his child. This is what the hadeeth means. If the man marries her after repenting, then the child has been conceived before marriage and repentance and is not his child; he cannot inherit from the man who committed zina even if he claims him as his child, because he is not his legitimate child.”
From Fataawa Islamiyyah, 3/370.
In Fataawa al-Shaykh Muhammad ibn Ibraaheem (11/146) it says: The child who is created from the sperm of the zaani cannot be called the child of the zaani.
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The fornicator shall not marry any but a fornicatress or idolatress, and (as for) the fornicatress, none shall marry her but a fornicator or an idolater; and it is forbidden to the believers. (24:3)
This verse clearly states that a guy who has had sex before is not allowed to marry a virgin, so it is exactly the opposite of the standard so often applied in the Muslim world where a man gets away with *being experienced* while the girl has to be a virgin by all means.
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If you would like to read through all the explanations of this verse, they generally say that a fornicator is not someone who has had sex prior to or outside marriage, but one who habitually does it. This relates to both men and women, but if they have sincerely repented of their ways and not continued on with their behaviour this restriction is lifted, as sincere repentance is accepted in Islam.
But as you said, practice doesn't always follow the Islamic law, which is one of the dangers of humans making their own laws in Islam independent of the sources.
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by newcomer: If you would like to read through all the explanations of this verse, they generally say that a fornicator is not someone who has had sex prior to or outside marriage, but one who habitually does it. This relates to both men and women, but if they have sincerely repented of their ways and not continued on with their behaviour this restriction is lifted, as sincere repentance is accepted in Islam.
I'm familiar with this explanation and it makes sense to me. But repentence also applies to both genders, so this verse still points to equality in this matter.
Posts: 2334 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Jesus Cesar: You girls are getting emotional as soon as there's a baby involved.
I'm getting the impression you are judging others by your own sterotypes instead of addressing the argument.
Just for the record – I, for one, do not get emotional when a baby is involved (in fact I am not particularly fond of babies at all and I have no desire to have one.) I do get emotional, though, when I see double standards applied and exactly this is the case here. Two people have a relationship, a child is conceived, the blame, however you turn it, is on the mother. That's neither fair nor just.
We don't know what sort of birth control they used (and it's nobody's business anyway) but obviously something went wrong and the woman ended up pregnant. I don't understand why you keep suggesting she intentionally got herself pregnant while it's quite clear that this is not the case.
This post of yours makes me feel bad. It's the exact reaction i didn't want to face.
I'm discussing the case and i'm not involving my feelings in it: there is nothing in what i say that has to do with stereotypes i do not have.
Look, now i've got to justify myself.
I've been defending that guy because nobody did in the first place. And i develop arguments to be convincing, i take it as a work.
Now i can be the one who defends the woman, because there are plenty of arguments that come to my mind, but you guys do the job really well.
I'm a law student. I'm training myself to be contradicting, that's all.
And i don't 'label' people, as i don't like to be labelled.
PS: i wanted to post this the day of the discussion but i the connexion broke down. Now it may seem disconnected with the previous post but i felt like i had to make things clear.
PS II: Now as you Dalia took the subject on a very personal approach, even revealling us you don't like children ( what i think is really sad ), i must say that in a similar situation, i would recognize the baby (as i would pay the 1000 dollars at the restaurant).
Posts: 1473 | From: France | Registered: Oct 2005
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its unbelievable, the child looks exactly like his mother somaya el alfy!
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Jesus Cesar: You girls are getting emotional as soon as there's a baby involved.
quote: I'm discussing the case and i'm not involving my feelings in it: there is nothing in what i say that has to do with stereotypes i do not have.
I have stated my opinion clearly, not more and not less, I did not see myself getting overly emotional anywhere in this thread as you have been accusing me of. So I think it's safe to say that your comment was rather based on your preconceptions (women+babies=emotional) than on what was actually said here.
quote:Originally posted by Jesus Cesar: I'm a law student. I'm training myself to be contradicting, that's all.
Then I suggest that you don't make a statement before knowing all the facts. Your earlier comments in this thread led me to the conclusion that you are obviously not very familiar with the case, otherwise you wouldn't have suggested that she got pregnant on purpose!
quote: been defending that guy because nobody did in the first place. And i develop arguments to be convincing, i take it as a work.
Ah well ... thanks for clarfying that. Maybe you should flag your posts somehow so we can see that you're in practicing mode.
quote:PS II: Now as you Dalia took the subject on a very personal approach, even revealling us you don't like children ( what i think is really sad )
You are twisting my words. I didn't say I don't like children, I said that I am not particularly fond of babies. That's a difference and if – as you say – you are practicing your arguing skills you should take note of that.
quote:Originally posted by Jesus Cesar: i must say that in a similar situation, i would recognize the baby (as i would pay the 1000 dollars at the restaurant).
quote:Originally posted by Jesus Cesar: This post of yours makes me feel bad. It's the exact reaction i didn't want to face.
Ah, why don't you just preface your arguments by saying you are playing devil's advocate? That way we'll assume these things are not your personal opinion - rather - you are trying to approach things from a different perspective.
quote:Originally posted by Jesus Cesar: I'm a law student. I'm training myself to be contradicting, that's all.
More power to you, and this is good practice. Personally, defending a side *I* don't believe in is *precisely* why I will never litigate. My mental health would be in the toilet.
quote:Originally posted by Jesus Cesar: PS II: Now as you Dalia took the subject on a very personal approach, even revealling us you don't like children ( what i think is really sad ),
Don't be sad about it. I can relate -- I vehemently didn't want children for 33 years of my life and was very thankful I could prevent that situation, unlike women as little as 40 years ago. It is a beautiful thing for a woman to be able to *choose* what type of lifestyle she wants to lead. Family planning is one of the most liberating things to happen to women, IMO.
After all, I've seen the results of women who didn't want children actually *have* them (usually through social/family pressure), and it was disasterous for all involved. Women who genuinely want to be parents will be great parents. Women who don't want to be parents can avoid a potentially bad situation.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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Oops, Dalia! I just saw your post. Forgive me if mine contradicts your beliefs about kids...I was responding to JC.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by 7ayat- magnouna khales taralaly: its unbelievable, the child looks exactly like his mother somaya el alfy!
Wow, you have actually seen a picture of that little girl? I thought she was not allowed to be photographed.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Dalia: Paternity psychosis
On 28 July, the family court adjourned the Hind El-Hinnawi case to 15 September, when witness testimonies will be heard. A young stylist, El-Hinnawi shocked the Arab world by filing a paternity suit against TV actor Ahmed El-Fishawi, claiming they had been in a secret urfi (customary) marriage when she conceived -- and that El-Fishawi held the only copy of the contract proving it. The couple had fallen out, according to her, when El-Hinnawi refused to have an abortion. According to El-Hinnawi's lawyer, Mamdouh El-Wassimi, the suit was filed on 6 November following the birth of their daughter Lina. "Paternity suits cannot be filed until the child is born. So El-Hinnawi filed two reports with the prosecutor -- just to establish that there had been a marriage and that the contract had been stolen." Both El-Hinnawi and El-Fishawi were questioned, and the latter denied any relationship with the former, whether legitimate or illegitimate. Later he conceded that there had been a relationship, which he described as an affair rather than a marriage: "In the end he's free to call it whatever he wants."
Playing with the beautiful Lina in her Muqattam villa, El-Hinnawi, speaking after the hearing, told Al-Ahram Weekly she was frustrated that her name has become synonymous with urfi marriage: "My problem is not the nature of the marriage. There are many officially registered marriages in which the father denies paternity." Nor does she have much tolerance for the view that, for a woman who accepts a urfi arrangement, she deserves to be in this situation: "I didn't have a relationship with thin air. There was a partner involved, and he accepted the same situation. We were both wrong. But why is it always the woman who's blamed?" Yet for her the issue is, rather, admitting, and rectifying, the mistake: "It's a schizophrenic society. Just like thieves who talk about honour, or charlatans who talk about honesty. That's what Ahmed does -- he talks about religious duties even as he disowns his daughter. He's always thinking up an excuse for this attitude, to clear his conscience -- that I'm the one who drove him to behave in this way... Our whole society is living a lie." That, she says, is why she has kept the baby: to assume responsibility for her choices rather than blame them on "circumstances".
While she takes the point that it was naïve to hand El-Fishawi the only existing copy of the contract (allegedly so he would obtain the signature of a second witness to make the contract valid), she still feels it was a matter of trust: "I trusted him with myself. I didn't see why I couldn't trust him with a piece of paper." Another reason she kept Lina, she says, is that she was brought up to be independent. At age eight her mother left to work in Saudi Arabia, while she and her brother stayed behind, in the care of her father -- who would drop them off at the airport or bus station and leave, for example: "Occasionally we did have problems, we would get lost. But we grew up to value the self-sufficiency it instilled in us."
El-Hinnawi has no regrets. Yet, having become the pinup for a social phenomenon, it is impossible to ignore the consequences -- both for her and her family. Led by one uncle, her mother's side of the family has cut all contact, while her father's have grown distant and formal. An ironic twist, as she describes it: it is the latter rather than the former who have Al-Azhar scholars among them; her paternal grandfather was an imam. With the exception of the occasional e- mail wishing her good luck, most of El-Hinnawi's friends have stopped communicating with her: "I don't think it's a matter of thinking what I did was wrong -- they just don't have the strength to stand by me." When her brother proposed to his wife, his in-laws brought up the case, too: "He told them, 'I'm not going to defend my sister, but she didn't invent urfi marriage.'" It is from the public that she senses the greatest support: she will often get the thumbs up from complete strangers. Currently job hunting, El-Hinnawi has hopes of starting a career in the media: "Now I have a baby I can't work till five, the way I used to." For her part Lina is on the waiting list of a nursery: "It's a very good British nursery. I told them, 'look, I have a problem. I don't have a birth certificate for her.' They said, 'Don't worry. And when you get the certificate just bring us a copy.'"
El-Hinnawi is particularly proud of this episode because she was concerned that, on growing up, her daughter would accuse her of giving her a bad reputation: "But then I thought, no, she will understand that I fought for her. I will tell her, 'you are Lina El-Fishawi. It may not be such an honour in itself but it's an honour to have your father's name against all odds." Early during her pregnancy, El-Hinnawi confided, a Muslim Englishman proposed to marry her and offered to give Lina his name: "This would've solved the entire problem, we would even have had British passports. Anyway we would've left the country and been spared all that trouble. Still, I couldn't face the prospect of telling my daughter, 20 years from now, 'Oh by the way your real father is named Ahmed.' It would have been a cop-out." Yet El-Hinnawi does have marriage plans: she wants Lina to have a good father substitute, "someone who will be there for her". After all, she points out, a true father need not be the biolgical father. Aware of the stigma Lina will have to live with, when she starts going to school for example, El-Hinnawi is determined that "she should have the courage".
El-Hinnawi's apparent strength does not always withstand the stress of bearing such a huge responsibility -- from lawyer fees to childcare: "Ahmed on the other hand is working, he's going out and having girlfriends. The only effect this has had on him is that maybe he doesn't sleep too well." Yet she insists that she will use her experience to help other women: already she has thought of establishing "instant courts" for performing DNA tests and delivering birth certificates within days. She is particularly concerned for women from the countryside, obliged to come all the way to Cairo: "Why should a man have the choice to take the DNA test? Why is stealing a house theft, while stealing a marriage contract personal affairs -- even when stealing a urfi paper turns you from a married woman into a..." Overcome, El-Hinnawi's voice trailed off.
hey i wrote that article! its so cool when people use your articles as "sources" Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by 7ayat- magnouna khales taralaly: hey i wrote that article! its so cool when people use your articles as "sources"
I was aware of this fact and I was wondering whether I should post it here. But I found that the article gave a good overview, so I decided to copy it.
But I can relate somehow to how you feel. I always feel a bit proud and slightly weird when I come across some work of mine in a bookstore, a magazine stand or anywhere in public, for that matter.
Posts: 2334 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by 7ayat- magnouna khales taralaly: hey i wrote that article! its so cool when people use your articles as "sources"
I was aware of this fact and I was wondering whether I should post it here. But I found that the article gave a good overview, so I decided to copy it.
But I can relate somehow to how you feel. I always feel a bit proud and slightly weird when I come across some work of mine in a bookstore, a magazine stand or anywhere in public, for that matter.
yeah i know i remember the first time i saw my by line it was an amazing feeling. i never told people here where i work but now since i left work it doesnt matter anymore! youre a stylist right?
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by 7ayat- magnouna khales taralaly: youre a stylist right?
No, I'm a designer / art director.
ohh interesting. do you know a suzanne kumper? she is a german woman teaching fashion designing to students at helwan university. she's very good
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by 7ayat- magnouna khales taralaly: ohh interesting. do you know a suzanne kumper? she is a german woman teaching fashion designing to students at helwan university. she's very good
Yes, I know about her. A friend of mine (who's also a journalist) wrote an article about the fashion show she had at the German embassy at the end of the course (New Blood) which I would have loved to see but couldn't because the morons at the embassy wouldn't let me in.
I found her project very interesting and encouraging and I'd love to do something similar at one point. Egypt lacks good designers of all fields – not because Egyptians aren't able to work creatively and productively but because there's a lack of good schools and teachers.
I talked to CIM (the organization that funded Susanne Kümper's project) because I wanted to know whether they would help sponsoring similar projects. They told me it was a one-of-a-kind experiment but they are generally open if you present a concept to them and ask for funds. So I'll keep researching ...
Posts: 2334 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by 7ayat- magnouna khales taralaly: ohh interesting. do you know a suzanne kumper? she is a german woman teaching fashion designing to students at helwan university. she's very good
Yes, I know about her. A friend of mine (who's also a journalist) wrote an article about the fashion show she had at the German embassy at the end of the course (New Blood) which I would have loved to see but couldn't because the morons at the embassy wouldn't let me in.
I found her project very interesting and encouraging and I'd love to do something similar at one point. Egypt lacks good designers of all fields – not because Egyptians aren't able to work creatively and productively but because there's a lack of good schools and teachers.
I talked to CIM (the organization that funded Susanne Kümper's project) because I wanted to know whether they would help sponsoring similar projects. They told me it was a one-of-a-kind experiment but they are generally open if you present a concept to them and ask for funds. So I'll keep researching ...
yeah i also covered that show it was pretty good. thats also what she said in the interview, egyptians can make good fashion designers all they needs is some good guidance. i think you should definitly continue searching, its worth it!
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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Welcome to web design egypt .com ! Web Design Egypt is an Internet company dedicated to providing online solutions: professional web site design, web development, e-commerce solutions, multimedia and maintenance services for your business. We're happiest stretching our creative muse to create the right solution for your communication and information needs. Web Design Egypt has professionally represented companies throughout the world: USA, Europe, Australia, Asia and Egypt http://www.webdesignegypt.comPosts: 271 | From: egypt | Registered: Apr 2004
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Ms Henawy says she will appeal against the court's ruling.
She says her motivation is not money but official recognition for her daughter.
Under Egyptian law, a birth certificate is needed to get an identity card, which then allows access to services such as school enrolment and children's health services.
However, a birth certificate cannot be issued without the father's name...."
Ms Henawy says she will appeal against the court's ruling.
She says her motivation is not money but official recognition for her daughter.
Under Egyptian law, a birth certificate is needed to get an identity card, which then allows access to services such as school enrolment and children's health services.
However, a birth certificate cannot be issued without the father's name...."
exactly and the poor girl doesnt have a certificate until now. and if this goes on she will have to be referred to a commitee that will ger a random name. disgusting
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: Wow. This little baby is innocent. I don't care if the parents are ax murderers, the kid shouldn't suffer.
That child is going to be banned from everything from school to work to health care???
Compassionate.
oh and thats besides the fact that she will shunned by people all her life, and mothers will warn their children not to speak to her in school. i think the best think hend should do is leave egypt to protect her child from this!
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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I mentioned that earlier. She and her daughter could indeed have a "life" after all.
Oh, if the birth certificate can't be produced without stating the father's name, how can a passport be issued to leave the country????
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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That's why I was trying to remove the issue from the perspective of (Islamic) religion and put it in a broader (conservative) cultural perspective.
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And thanks god that her parents are so supportive and that they deal with this situation in this kind of way - it could have been totally different.
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Look, now i've got to justify myself.![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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