posted
Does it matter WHO's behind it? I mean at the end of the day ..temptations have always been out there. FOREIGN temptations and forces I mean. But WHAT's really behind it is the poor unhuman conditions that ppl have to live in that worsens by the hour. These conditions made the temptations toooooooo hard to resist!
Poor Egyptians!!! What are we gonna do next?
Posts: 1813 | From: Cairo | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
A TENT thats the answer..what is up with MR EGYPT
Posts: 1602 | From: the banana island shake me tweeeeeeee | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Ngeg: Does it matter WHO's behind it? I mean at the end of the day ..temptations have always been out there. FOREIGN temptations and forces I mean. But WHAT's really behind it is the poor unhuman conditions that ppl have to live in that worsens by the hour. These conditions made the temptations toooooooo hard to resist!
Poor Egyptians!!! What are we gonna do next?
and what about the rest of the attacks took a place in many different places , turkey , spain , us , england , etcccccccccccccccccccc, are the Egyptians doing this as well ? think a bit and you can figure it out who is behind all of this and for what reasons !!!
Posts: 565 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
La2aaaaaaaaa...plz dont mix the situation up. Egypt's case is diff. The situation in Europe-AS U KNOW- has much to do with the immigrants..who happen by mere coincedence to be muslims as well. Different topic.
And yes, poverty and ignorance are still the number one reason.
When ppl become so cheap that they r only tools for others seeking money fame and power. Then it's ignorance and poverty.
Posts: 1813 | From: Cairo | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Ngeg: La2aaaaaaaaa...plz dont mix the situation up. Egypt's case is diff. The situation in Europe-AS U KNOW- has much to do with the immigrants..who happen by mere coincedence to be muslims as well. Different topic.
And yes, poverty and ignorance is still the number one reasons.
When ppl become so cheap that they r only tools for others seeking money fame and power. Then it's ignorance and poverty.
well , this could be but it is still very simple reason but the game is more than what you can think ,,, there is a big game behind all of this and they make us believe what they want us to believe.
Posts: 565 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
me thick got it now what ur talking about ,me a PEE BRAIN today ,heyyyyyyy chillingon my mash ennit MR VENUM Posts: 1602 | From: the banana island shake me tweeeeeeee | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
and who are informed by "scholars" and "imams" that they will get to paradise quick this way...
Posts: 1161 | From: wo xiang xiao bian ji si le | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by _Masrawi_: it has nothing to do with "scholars" and "imams" ... it has to do with manipulation and brainwashing.
no "scholar" or "imam" would approve of this.
Also the fact that this government literally broils people on a low, simmering fire, so it's really no fucking wonder shït's exploding all over the place.
Posts: 216 | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by _Masrawi_: it has nothing to do with "scholars" and "imams" ... it has to do with manipulation and brainwashing.
no "scholar" or "imam" would approve of this.
Also the fact that this government literally broils people on a low, simmering fire, so it's really no fucking wonder shït's exploding all over the place.
that too ... Posts: 2049 | From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by hellraiser: Also the fact that this government literally broils people on a low, simmering fire, so it's really no fucking wonder shït's exploding all over the place.
Isn't that really the issue? If people felt they had a true voice and could effect change through a legitimate mechanism(goverment/elections), they wouldn't resort to bombing resorts, would they?
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by QueenBee: and who are informed by "scholars" and "imams" that they will get to paradise quick this way...
Actually this is the last and least important step in the formula " How To Make A human Bomb", I doubt you care about other former and more important steps as this is will include the foreign policy of your "Heil Hitler" ..Oh I mean your "God bless USA"
Posts: 1539 | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by hellraiser: Also the fact that this government literally broils people on a low, simmering fire, so it's really no fucking wonder shït's exploding all over the place.
Isn't that really the issue? If people felt they had a true voice and could effect change through a legitimate mechanism(goverment/elections), they wouldn't resort to bombing resorts, would they?
not quite. but then that is really what "terrorism" means ... not the definition that has been losely tossed around in the past few years.
In other words, Osama Bin Laden is a terrorist because he is trying to promote through violence what he personally believes in and using religion as a tool. On the other hand, a palestinian freedom fighter is not a terrorist because even though there is a UN resolution granting him legal rights to his land, these laws are not being implemented ... so he resorts to violence to get what is legally his.
Just my opinion ...
Posts: 2049 | From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by _Masrawi_: not quite. but then that is really what "terrorism" means ... not the definition that has been losely tossed around in the past few years.
In other words, Osama Bin Laden is a terrorist because he is trying to promote through violence what he personally believes in and using religion as a tool. On the other hand, a palestinian freedom fighter is not a terrorist because even though there is a UN resolution granting him legal rights to his land, these laws are not being implemented ... so he resorts to violence to get what is legally his.
Just my opinion ...
I think people get violent when they either have too much power or too little....a healthy balance has been lost. Violence when powerless is logical, like a cornered dog who must attack to be free. It's the violence by those with too much power I don't understand as much....as if they will be violent simply because they *can.* Like starting a war for no apparent reason.
I still can't condone what some Palestinians do, though, like blowing up busses with innocent people on them. Compare to Israeli troops who bulldoze a house of a *suspected* terrorist, killing his grandmother inside for no reason.
Is there a moral hierarchy here? To me, they are both wrong, although the people with *more* power I suppose should be held to a higher standard of accountability, because they don't *need* to abuse their power and use violence.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
so with the assumption that a corrupt gov. and an impoverished society is what "makes a human bomb" where are all the South American bombers?
Why no suicide explosions in Belarus?
You can deny the obvious all you want.
I put "scholars" and "imams" in parentheses because I am refering to people, such as Zawahiri and his ilk - the internet chieftans of militant Islam, who do in fact support this kind of activity. In Palestine suicide bombers are oft championed by their communities, their own families as great martyrs. I don't see too much difference between a nightclub filled with sinners drinking the wine in Egypt and a busload of commuters and students going to their work in Israel.
Posts: 1161 | From: wo xiang xiao bian ji si le | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: I still can't condone what some Palestinians do, though, like blowing up busses with innocent people on them. Compare to Israeli troops who bulldoze a house of a *suspected* terrorist, killing his grandmother inside for no reason.
not that simple, i am afraid. when a palestinian acts against those occupying his land, he is by no means acting unjustifiably against "innocent" targets. Now, do take note that I am referring to residents of the occupied territories ... in other words, those who have decided to live on another person's land unjustifiably (i.e. the illegal settlements). Symbolically, it is no different than you acting against squatters who take over your house using whatever means necessary ...
Posts: 2049 | From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by _Masrawi_: not that simple, i am afraid. when a palestinian acts against those occupying his land, he is by no means acting unjustifiably against "innocent" targets. Now, do take note that I am referring to residents of the occupied territories ... in other words, those who have decided to live on another person's land unjustifiably (i.e. the illegal settlements). Symbolically, it is no different than you acting against squatters who take over your house using whatever means necessary ...
I understand your point of view, I just don't think I would personally use violence to harm a human to save/protect/reclaim property rights. So I can't condone it in others.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by _Masrawi_: not that simple, i am afraid. when a palestinian acts against those occupying his land, he is by no means acting unjustifiably against "innocent" targets. Now, do take note that I am referring to residents of the occupied territories ... in other words, those who have decided to live on another person's land unjustifiably (i.e. the illegal settlements). Symbolically, it is no different than you acting against squatters who take over your house using whatever means necessary ...
I understand your point of view, I just don't think I would personally use violence to harm a human to save/protect/reclaim property rights. So I can't condone it in others.
Neither would i ... but then again neither one of us has been in that desperate of a situation.
Posts: 2049 | From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by QueenBee: so with the assumption that a corrupt gov. and an impoverished society is what "makes a human bomb" ...
QueenPee, You haven't read what I said carefully! What you mentioned is only part of the procedure. you're nuts if you think people will give up their lives because some self proclaimed "scholar" said it's okay, it takes much more than this. Question should be why would anyone listen to Bin Laden and take his words to heart? figure this out and you will understand the stuff. Has Bin Laden issued fatwas for American soldiers to target civilians in Abu Gharib? I doubt. Violence has less to do with religions than with other factors.
Two kind of people gain followers in situations like ours, extremists and drug dealers.
Posts: 1539 | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
I understand the defense of people who blow themselves up while destroying soft targets such as people eating in restaurants and such. I also think that this exact position - that the behavior of these Palestinian murderers is defensible, is the very attitude that encourages this kind of BS to continue. Some 19 year old kid with a backpack is not in a position to be negotiating for his "nation's" progress, if that's what you want to call it. It just murder, and its no different when they do it inside Egypt.
Posts: 1161 | From: wo xiang xiao bian ji si le | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Lazeez, I know what you are thinking.... there are people who TRAVEL for the chance to blow themselves up in the name of Allah, however sickening that is. They will try to leave a place of relative comfort and economic opportunity for the promise of martyrdom. These are the kind of people that detonate themselves. Very very committed people, often young, and in my opinion, selfish and arrogant beyond belief. If the social/economic situation were to blame, I think you'd see this a lot more often.
Posts: 1161 | From: wo xiang xiao bian ji si le | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by QueenBee: Lazeez, I know what you are thinking.... there are people who TRAVEL for the chance to blow themselves up in the name of Allah, however sickening that is. They will try to leave a place of relative comfort and economic opportunity for the promise of martyrdom. These are the kind of people that detonate themselves. Very very committed people, often young, and in my opinion, selfish and arrogant beyond belief. If the social/economic situation were to blame, I think you'd see this a lot more often.
I didn't blame it all on social and economic situation, I said this is only part of the procedure, there is education, oppression (insider and outsider) and personal psychology state for each individual. The question you can't answer is why those men ignore what all known scholars say and follow less knowledgeable person like Bin Laden or Zawahri?
In my personal opinion, It has less to do with what Bin Laden say or preach and more to do with how ready someone becomes to take the most extremist lines of thought. Extreme ideas have been flying all over the face of our planet before Bin Laden but what changes are the circumstances.
For some people All peaceful doors for a change are shut, doors they need to progress in their personal lives, or doors they need to change injustice around them, in a situation like this, some people can't find a value of their lives. life becomes worthless and they become desperate to find a value of their own existence even through accepting extreme ideas about finding this value quickly in the hereafter and by ignoring all other moderate thoughts. Either way with or without this idea, every crazy sort of action is expected when you can't resist this situation.
Those factors don't apply on every one but to a good portion of them, I think they do in variable way though, related to place and circumstances.
Take the Afghan as an example, who helped them to go through all this sh!t? they were abused by soviets and used by Americans and then each went out with clean hands while Afghans had to cope with life they knew little about how to run and then were labelled terrorists for following what they were brainwashed to do by Americans earlier. In case you don't know, America helped in copying all sort of extreme ideas to encourage Afghans against Soviets and Afghans were mostly illiterate which didn't help their case.
I can go on and on but I feel you prefer to believe that people like Bin Laden are the problem and getting rid of them will solve everything which USA has been trying to do for years now, and obviously things are working the other way around as the amount of violence and those who turn violent rise up.
Posts: 1539 | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
Dont assume to know what I believe. Many people, across the world have problems in their lives. It is the coward and the selfish jerk that ruins other people's lives because of his or her own inability to do whatever small thing they can to live with dignity. Ignoring the extremist Islamic component to the endless moslem suicide show is like overlooking the "elephant in the room," as they say. If a fundamentalist Christian nutcase blows something up (usually from a distance and not themselves) the community says, "He was a religious fundamentalist nutjob and its too bad he went that way." If a moslem fundamentalist nutjob blows himself up, its someone else's fault? The US, Israel, the poor helpless Egyptians and their terrible circumstances, the poor oppressed moslems can't take it anymore so they do this and so on and so on? Come on! Don't include me in that group!
Posts: 1161 | From: wo xiang xiao bian ji si le | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote: and who are informed by "scholars" and "imams" that they will get to paradise quick this way.
quote:I put "scholars" and "imams" in parentheses because I am refering to people, such as Zawahiri and his ilk - the internet chieftans of militant Islam, who do in fact support this kind of activity.
I said:
quote:I feel you prefer to believe that people like Bin Laden are the problem
Now you say :
quote: Dont assume to know what I believe. ...
Do you like to argue with yourself? My feeling is based on what you say not hollow assumptions unlike when you say:
quote:Lazeez, I know what you are thinking.
And still you can't comprehend my thinking after explaining my thoughts more than once!
quote:Many people, across the world have problems in their lives. It is the coward and the selfish jerk that ruins other people's lives because of his or her own inability to do whatever small thing they can to live with dignity.
If you say so? this explanation can perhaps be sufficient for simple minded individuals but to someone who wants to understand, I find it ridiculous. and there is a difference between justifying and understanding. And mind you, there are less Muslims who justify what happened in Dahab than those who justify what happened in Hiroshima. Propaganda is in your blood!
Posts: 1539 | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
haahaaa, i like your propaganda comment! Hey there will always be bin ladens. As long as there is a culture of tacit approval or acceptance for these extreme attitudes, the message the lunatics send over the wire will have ample and willing listeners, and eager, if few, "converts" to that line of thinking. If you think about it, there are few terrorists. For the number of people milling around on the planet these days, so many in dire circumstances, there are really few who take out their aggression on the innocent. Hmmmm... So from the propaganda mainline, do you think there would be less terrorism if these young men could "blow off" their steam and tension in a halal, married, environment? I mean it is difficult for hot blooded young heros to go through their steamy years without a wife, eh? You know the fundamentalist Christians sometimes go crazy and blow up soft targets, although not as often as their moslem counterparts. But again, it is the extremist philosophy that rejects life, and can't handle peaceful co-existance with other kinds of people, that encourages that behavior. In some limited circles that's devotion. In others (most) its simply evil.
Posts: 1161 | From: wo xiang xiao bian ji si le | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Queenbee, I agree with you. It is selfish to blow yourself up for the glory of Allah. Lazeez says people are not swayed by bin laden, but I think they are. Just like David Corash, well, he was a cult leader and people were swayed by him. Some people listen to bin laden speeches so I think some people were swayed by him. I know some people were swayed by Saddam. Cult leaders have a way of twisting things to suit their gain.
Posts: 935 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
She then issues an even greater provocation. "We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German restaurant. We have not seen a single Jew destroy a church ... Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people and destroying embassies. This path will not yield any results. The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind, before they demand that humankind respect them."
Posts: 1223 | From: Home | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by QueenBee: But again, it is the extremist philosophy that rejects life, and can't handle peaceful co-existance with other kinds of people, that encourages that behavior.
And the remained unanswered question is, why this philosophy is getting more followers now than anytime before? what has changed? people are people but this things is becoming a phenomena!
Can you explain this?
I'm not saying it's reasonable to bomb others in revenge but I'm saying we can't make a fair reliable analysis of this action by isolating the case from all circumstances around and calling the man "selfish jerk" and that's it! No, when a Palestinian man wakes up to find his home being destroyed and he runs out to save his life but his weak parents die because they couldn't make it then he is left homeless for no reason, I can't blame it all on his shoulders calling him selfish jerk and forget about all other factors when he commit terrible revenge. in cases like this I can't expect everyone to behave normal without addressing first the troubles they suffer from. and here I'm talking of most suicidal cases not all of them.
I told a friend of my mine that I'm expecting that Sinai police will be attacked after Dahab, and it happened one day after this, it's very reasonable to expect this when you hear the terrible things police has done to people there. It's physics.
Posts: 1539 | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
the police over there are generally awful. They have too much unchecked power to mess with people, hurt people, etc. I always tell my husband to shave his beard when he goes home, so he doesn't get on some watch list. But then he looks too cute, so I tell him let it grow a little. So why now? Mmmm, well phenomenon is one way of looking at it, trend might be another word for it. These kinds of things tend to generate copycats. The knee-jerk fad-like conservative extremism is probably not helping. Nor is the widespread access to the internet. But you know what I find interesting? I have heard the story about Israeli bulldozer crushes family, what do you expect the young man to do SOOOO many times!!!! So so many times, I have to wonder if that is not propaganda of its own. How can so many people tell the same story? And how many bombers actually had their own families crushed? I think its part fantasy. Which doesn't change the fact that blowing up innocent people is not the answer.
Posts: 1161 | From: wo xiang xiao bian ji si le | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by QueenBee: ... But you know what I find interesting? I have heard the story about Israeli bulldozer crushes family, what do you expect the young man to do SOOOO many times!!!! So so many times, I have to wonder if that is not propaganda of its own. How can so many people tell the same story? And how many bombers actually had their own families crushed? I think its part fantasy. Which doesn't change the fact that blowing up innocent people is not the answer. [/QB]
They tell same story because these stuff happen all the time in Palestine, read the words of American like Rachael Corie who lived there for awhile if you don't trust what Muslims say! as I doubt those news get to the headlines like suicide bombings do in your country. we Khalas kefayah keda ana zehe2t min raghyek
Posts: 1539 | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
I know a lot about what happens in Palestine, actually. I have some good friends from my town that go every year for a couple months to provide different kinds of support services to Palestinians. I am moslem, and I have no intention of blowing myself up, and more importantly killing innocent people. My husband is a conservative moslem and he has no intention of killing himself either, nor of encouraging or justifying that behavior.
Posts: 1161 | From: wo xiang xiao bian ji si le | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Lazeez: we Khalas kefayah keda ana zehe2t min raghyek
Advice for u:
Never argue with an idiot. First they drag you down to their level and then they beat you with their experience.
Posts: 2049 | From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Masrawi, I see you are posting your usual, characteristic intelligent and useful commentary. Good for you! I wouldn't easily tire of this kind of discussion, especially if it happened in my homeland. But, then, there is a lazy type of person that doesn't do anything to create positive change. Internet forums may, in some cases, be a good place to find that type.
Posts: 1161 | From: wo xiang xiao bian ji si le | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by QueenBee: so with the assumption that a corrupt gov. and an impoverished society is what "makes a human bomb" where are all the South American bombers?
Why no suicide explosions in Belarus?
You can deny the obvious all you want.
I put "scholars" and "imams" in parentheses because I am refering to people, such as Zawahiri and his ilk - the internet chieftans of militant Islam, who do in fact support this kind of activity. In Palestine suicide bombers are oft championed by their communities, their own families as great martyrs. I don't see too much difference between a nightclub filled with sinners drinking the wine in Egypt and a busload of commuters and students going to their work in Israel.
'Bee, S. America has some vicious problems of their own that are tearing up the fabric of their socities. Drug trafficking, kidnapping & murder to name a few.
If anything, there's more violence & strife in that reigon than here, this reigon gets the spotlight and makes headlines due to recent events and the geo-political aspect.
It's a beast of a different nature, human depravity being the only common denominator.
Posts: 216 | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
What about the bombing of the bus in England awhile back? Was there a reason for that? What about the massacure of people in Rwanda? What about the beheadings that go on in Iraq? What about the dictators in africa that go and rape women? The is trafficking that goes on in America,too. There was a riot in France not to long ago about the new job law that came out. There's stuff everyone in the world that goes on. The innocent people in the Rwanda massacure did not deserve to die, either. Think about that, guys.
Posts: 935 | Registered: Mar 2006
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Hell, the gangland stuff in S.A. has a $$$ motivation - I think that's the reason people aren't scratching their heads trying to figure it out. I have a friend in "Benezuela" that gets robbed constantly. But its sort of a no-brainer...corruption and lack of enforcement, greed and a taste for the white stuff. The usual.
I think what troubles people about the suicide bomber is that there seems to be no "gain" from it. So it can't be greed. It's not targeted like a crime of passion. There isn't usually a note, so there's no big message to deliver for the fame and notoriety-seeking wacko. And more than anything else, the assailant destroys himself which is usually reserved for the clinical types. And yet its orchestrated, often in groups, and often by people who don't actually take part in it. I hate the one about the suicide car bomber(s) with the gas pedal wedged down and the foot duct taped to the pedal. Ugh.
Posts: 1161 | From: wo xiang xiao bian ji si le | Registered: Oct 2005
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