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Statue attack fuels fears of an Islamist Egypt By Harry de Quetteville in Cairo (Filed: 18/06/2006)
A religiously motivated attack on statues at a museum in Cairo has sparked outcry in Egypt and fuelled fears that the country is veering towards an Islamic state.
The attack on three artworks, by a black-clad and veiled woman screaming, "Infidels, infidels!" followed a fatwa issued by the Grand Mufti of Cairo, Ali Gomaa, which banned all decorative statues of living beings.
It led to furious criticism of the mufti from Egyptian liberals. In a televised debate with the mufti after the attack, one poet raged that "the prevalent religious discourse in the country encourages terror".
Although the ancient treasures of Egypt have been protected under Islam so far, an increasing extremism in the country could make statues such as the quartzite head of Nefertiti, the colossus of Amenhotep, and the golden death mask of Tutankhamen possible targets in future.
At the scene of the attack, in the villa and museum of the Egyptian sculptor, Hassan Heshmat, guards said they had been woken in the middle of the night by the woman's shouts and the sounds of destruction.
"It was a fully covered, religious woman," said Raisa Intesar, who looks after both the museum and Mr Heshmat, who is now 86. "She had jumped over the wall. We rushed out to stop her but by the time we had overpowered her, she had destroyed three statues."
The damaged works included Motherhood, a piece featuring three delicately carved heads, all of which had been snapped off. Also damaged was a smaller piece, The Victory Leap, Heshmat's tribute to Egyptian troops in the 1973 Yom Kippur war.
But the patriotic sentiment of the work was lost on the attacker, who was intent on following a religious imperative. "She had been listening to the mufti, and was following his orders," Ms Intesar said.
In Islam, representations of the human form and potential idolatry are particularly sensitive topics and helped to fuel the riots over the depiction of the Prophet earlier this year.
So, in Egypt, which has become markedly more conservative in recent years, artists such as Mr Heshmat now find that national pride is losing out to religious fervour.
The attack exemplifies the clash of secular and religious societies in Egypt where, on the streets of Cairo, beauties in low-cut tops mingle with veiled women who walk behind their husbands.
"We are seeing an increase of conservative, Islamist feeling," said Nabil Abdel Fatah, from the Al Ahram centre for Political and Strategic studies in Cairo.
"The Islamisation of Egyptian society is happening from the bottom up, and now it has reached the middle classes - the doctors, the lawyers.
"Over the next few years political Islam will grow and grow," he added. "The duality between secular and religious is very dangerous and will lead to a very serious conflict in Egyptian society.
We are already seeing terror attacks. And we will see new radical groups who will want to change the state in the most basic way - by suicide bombs and assassination."
Comfortably installed in the cafe at the top of Egypt's parliament building, 72-year-old Sheikh Said Askar smiled benignly at such ideas.
Sheikh Askar is one of 88 members of parliament for the Muslim Brotherhood, whose offshoots include Hamas, now in power in the Palestinian territories, and which seeks to impose Sharia law throughout Egypt.
Although he is also a long-serving scholar at Cairo's al Azhar mosque, from where the mufti issued his fatwa on statues, he said the Brotherhood will use its growing voice in parliament - not bombs - to effect change. "I want to see Egypt become an Islamic state," he said. "We are near to that."
As little as a year ago, such an idea would have been fanciful. Sheikh Askar was locked up ahead of last autumn's parliamentary elections, from which the Brotherhood was banned.
Running as independents, and despite widespread government interference, its members markedly exceeded expectations by winning enough seats to become the main opposition. Had it not been so restricted, some say, it could have won.
"I understand that an Islamic Egypt scares the West," said Sheikh Askar. "But the secular government has failed the people. Now our group will spread the glory of Islam."
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The Islamic fundamentalists are lunatics. I can assure you that we in the west will never allow another fundamentalist state in the middle east. It is like an infestation of roaches, the only thing you can do is what was done in Afghanistan. These nuts would blow up the pyramids and karnak if they got the chance.
-------------------- God Bless President Bush Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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it's the irony of all time....when you think of egypt, more than anywhere in the world you think of stautes of aminals and humans...and now 90% of egypt wants to blow them up...
weird world we are cast into.
-------------------- The ground at Calvary's Cross is level Posts: 1172 | Registered: Apr 2006
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Quote: "The Islamic fundamentalists are lunatics"
Sadly I have to Agree with you those nuts (can't think of any other way to describe them) are too Ignorance to realize that Islam was Heavily Influenced by Kemet in the first place and now they want to destroy it.
Their very Star and Crescent Symbol is African or Egyptian in Origin.
This is madness Posts: 567 | From: USA | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Their very Star and Crescent Symbol is African or Egyptian in Origin
Actually, the Crescent and star was adopted by Ottoman Turks from the Byzantines who conquered Constanopile. The symbol has nothing to do with Islam. See the following reference:
quote:Originally posted by Masonic Rebel: Quote: "The Islamic fundamentalists are lunatics"
Sadly I have to Agree with you those nuts (can't think of any other way to describe them) are too Ignorance to realize that Islam was Heavily Influenced by Kemet in the first place and now they want to destroy it.
Their very Star and Crescent Symbol is African or Egyptian in Origin.
This is madness
Masonic Rebel
First off all you are the lunatic who trapped in the past, not the mufti of Egypt who is one of the most respected Islamic schoolers in world.
Second off all Islam was not influenced by the self worshipping Pharoes...but devil worhipping secret societies like Masonics, Illuminates, etc were influenced by the Pharoes ritual and believes.
The crescent moon is the simple of the start of the month Ramadan...If you knew anything about people lived 1400 years ago in the desert ot anywhere in the world you would have probably known they would have used the moon or sun to track time.
Posts: 554 | From: Somaliland | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: The Islamic fundamentalists are lunatics. I can assure you that we in the west will never allow another fundamentalist state in mthe iddle east. It is like an infestation of roaches, the only thing you can do is what was done in Afghanistan. These nuts would blow up the pyramids and karnak if they got the chance.
The more you push Western values on Muslims the more we turn to our faith and become more and more and more radical. Just look around the world one by one every country were muslims are majority people want to ruled by Islamic...even Egypt and Turkey were government tried hard to westernize its citizens, people are choosing Islamic parties rather than secular parties.
The more the US tries to westernize muslims the more religous they become.
Posts: 554 | From: Somaliland | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ceelgabo_11: Masonic Rebel
First off all you are the lunatic who trapped in the past, not the mufti of Egypt who is one of the most respected Islamic schoolers in world.
If he is so respected, why can't he offer some respect Egypt's heritage?
quote:Second off all Islam was not influenced by the self worshipping Pharoes...but devil worhipping secret societies like Masonics, Illuminates, etc were influenced by the Pharoes ritual and believes.
I have heard of secret societies like masonics and illuminates being influenced or even directly descended from Egypt but isn't that all a theory that hasn't been proven yet? The last notable person I heard mention this was Richard Poe in his book Black Spark. Either way, where did you hear that such secret societies were "devil-worshipping"??
quote:The crescent moon is the simple of the start of the month Ramadan...If you knew anything about people lived 1400 years ago in the desert ot anywhere in the world you would have probably known they would have used the moon or sun to track time.
You are very correct about this, however wasn't the start of this special month with its sign of the crescent moon descended from the pagan Arabian moon god Sin?..
Posts: 26318 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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However, I must agree with the likes of Hore. (and you know how much I hate agreeing with that idiot! )...
This fatwa against ancient statues is ridiculous and must be stopped. Egypt is already a Muslim state, why must it turn to fundamentalism?!
Posts: 26318 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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The symbol of the worship of the moon god in Arabian culture and elsewhere throughout the Middle East was the crescent moon.
Archaeologists have dug up numerous statues and hieroglyphic inscriptions in which a crescent moon was seated on top of the head of the deity to symbolize the worship of the moon god. In the same fashion as the sun is pictured above the Egyptian deity.
While the moon was generally worshiped as a female deity in the Ancient Near East, the Arabs viewed it as a male deity.
-------------------- The ground at Calvary's Cross is level Posts: 1172 | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Ceelgabo_11: Masonic Rebel
First off all you are the lunatic who trapped in the past, not the mufti of Egypt who is one of the most respected Islamic schoolers in world.
If he is so respected, why can't he offer some respect Egypt's heritage?
quote:Second off all Islam was not influenced by the self worshipping Pharoes...but devil worhipping secret societies like Masonics, Illuminates, etc were influenced by the Pharoes ritual and believes.
I have heard of secret societies like masonics and illuminates being influenced or even directly descended from Egypt but isn't that all a theory that hasn't been proven yet? The last notable person I heard mention this was Richard Poe in his book Black Spark. Either way, where did you hear that such secret societies were "devil-worshipping"??
quote:The crescent moon is the simple of the start of the month Ramadan...If you knew anything about people lived 1400 years ago in the desert ot anywhere in the world you would have probably known they would have used the moon or sun to track time.
You are very correct about this, however wasn't the start of this special month with its sign of the crescent moon descended from the pagan Arabian moon god Sin?..
"If he is so respected, why can't he offer some respect Egypt's heritage? "
He is respected by Sunni Muslims around the World. I don't think the sheikh would really issue fatwa to destroy the prymid and the statues, because thousands of Egyptians depend on the tourist that come to see the statues. I think the fatwa was against buying the statues for home decoration.
Posts: 554 | From: Somaliland | Registered: Sep 2005
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Ya Allah Ya Allah Ya Allah My Beloved Egypt has been destroyed by invaders Actually the Moon and Crecent originated from Ancient Ethiopia u must understand it enter arabia because Ethiopia ruled Arabia the ancient sabeans were star gazers the word for star in ancient egypt is sba which is what the sabians called them sevles the star gazers the ancient sabians religions was incoporated into islam like for instance the Kaaba belonged to the sabians.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by mike rozier: The symbol of the worship of the moon god in Arabian culture and elsewhere throughout the Middle East was the crescent moon.
Archaeologists have dug up numerous statues and hieroglyphic inscriptions in which a crescent moon was seated on top of the head of the deity to symbolize the worship of the moon god. In the same fashion as the sun is pictured above the Egyptian deity.
While the moon was generally worshiped as a female deity in the Ancient Near East, the Arabs viewed it as a male deity.
If that is the case than how is that we muslims don't bow down to the moon or perform Pagan ritual in full moon...
Crescent moon is symbolizes the start of the month of Ramadan.
quote:Originally posted by Hikuptah: Ya Allah Ya Allah Ya Allah My Beloved Egypt has been destroyed by invaders Actually the Moon and Crecent originated from Ancient Ethiopia u must understand it enter arabia because Ethiopia ruled Arabia the ancient sabeans were star gazers the word for star in ancient egypt is sba which is what the sabians called them sevles the star gazers the ancient sabians religions was incoporated into islam like for instance the Kaaba belonged to the sabians.
Crescent moon symbolizes the start of Ramadan...
Kaaba was built by Abraham(pbuh), the Arabs Pagans before arrival of Islam used it to worship their pagan dieties. I have never heard of Kaaba belonging to Sabians.
Posts: 554 | From: Somaliland | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by mike rozier: this explains it in further detail
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm
Damn that is intelligent...using right wing Christians to explain the History or the origine of Islam..
Posts: 554 | From: Somaliland | Registered: Sep 2005
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What is quite certain is that the Pagan Arabs in Mecca worshipped a moon god called Hubal at the Kabah. Hubal was the Lord of the Kabah, being the highest ranking god of the 360 gods worshipped in the Kabah. Now here is the amazing thing. Allah was also worshipped as the Lord of the Kabah. Yet, Allah was never represented by any idol of physical nature. To suggest the polytheistic Arabs never created an idol to represent Allah is simply unreasonable and unbelievable. We suggest rather, that Hubal was who the Pagan Arabs addressed their prayers to Allah through. In other words, Allah was Hubal. Muhammad came along and smashed the idol of Hubal and now the Arabs had no idol of Allah to pray through any more and Hubal was forgotten. There are stories in the Sira of pagan Meccan praying to Allah while standing beside the image of Hubal. (Muhammad's Mecca, W. Montgomery Watt, Chapter 3: Religion In Pre-Islamic Arabia, p26-45) We suggest that Arabs stood beside Hubal and prayed to him, referring to him as Allah.
1. "II. The Religion of the Pre-Islamic Arabs The life of the pre-Islamic Arabs, especially in the Hijaz depended on trade and they made a trade of their religion as well. About four hundred years before the birth of Muhammad one Amr bin Lahyo bin Harath bin Amr ul-Qais bin Thalaba bin Azd bin Khalan bin Babalyun bin Saba, a descendant of Qahtan and king of Hijaz, had put an idol called Hubal on the roof of the Kaba. This was one of the chief deities of the Quraish before Islam. It is said that there were altogether three hundred and sixty idols in and about the Kaba and that each tribes had its own deity...The shapes and figures of the idols were also made according to the fancy of the worshippers. Thus Wadd was shaped like a man, Naila like a woman, so was Suwa. Yaghuth was made in the shape of lion, Yauq like a horse and Nasr like a vulture.. Besides Hubal, there was another idol called Shams placed on the roof of the Kaba...The blood of the sacrificial animals brought by the pilgrims was offered to the deities in the Kaba and sometimes even human beings were sacrificed and offered to the god... Besides idol-worship, they also worshipped the stars, the sun and the moon." (Muhammad The Holy Prophet, Hafiz Ghulam Sarwar (Pakistan), p 18-19, Muslim) 2. Among the gods worshiped by the Quraysh, the greatest was Hubal, this on the expert testimony of Ibn al-Kalbi: "The Quraysh had several idols in and around the Ka'ba. The greatest of these was Hubal. It was made, as I was told, of red agate, in the form of a man with the right hand broken off It came into the possession of the Quraysh in this condition, and they therefore made for it a hand of gold.... It stood inside the Ka'ba, and in front of it were seven divinatory arrows. On one of these was written the word "Pure," and on another "associated alien." Whenever the lineage of a new-born was doubted, they would offer a sacrifice to Hubal and then shuffle the arrows and throw them. If the arrows showed the word "Pure," the child would be declared legitimate and the tribe would accept him. If, however, the arrows showed "associated alien," the child would be declared illegitimate and would reject him. The third arrow had to do with divination concerning the dead, while the fourth was for divination about marriage. The purpose of the three remaining arrows has not been explained. Whenever they disagreed concerning something, or proposed to embark upon a journey, or undertake some other project, they would proceed to Hubal and shuffle the divinatory arrows before it. Whatever result they obtained they would follow and do accordingly. (Ibn al-Kalbi, Book of Idols 28-29 = Ibn al-Kalbi 1952: 23-24) (The Hajj, F. E. Peters, p 3-41, 1994) 3. "Before Muhammad appeared, the Kaaba was surrounded by 360 idols, and every Arab house had its god. Arabs also believed in jinn (subtle beings), and some vague divinity with many offspring. Among the major deities of the pre-Islamic era were al-Lat ("the Goddess"), worshiped in the shape of a square stone; al-Uzzah ("the Mighty"), a goddess identified with the morning star and worshiped as a thigh-bone-shaped slab of granite between al Talf and Mecca; Manat, the goddess of destiny, worshiped as a black stone on the road between Mecca and Medina; and the moon god, Hubal, whose worship was connected with the Black Stone of the Kaaba. The stones were said to have fallen from the sun, moon, stars, and planets and to represent cosmic forces. The so-called Black Stone (actually the color of burnt umber) that Muslims revere today is the same one that their forebears had worshiped well before Muhammad and that they believed had come from the moon. (No scientific investigation has ever been performed on the stone. In 930, the stone was removed and shattered by an Iraqi sect of Qarmatians, but the pieces were later returned. The pieces, sealed in pitch and held in place by silver wire, measure about 10 inches in diameter altogether and several feet high; they are venerated today in patched-together form.)" (The Joy of Sects, Peter Occhigrosso, 1996) 4. It is not related that the Black Stone was connected with any special god. In the Ka'ba was the statue of the god Hubal who might be called the god of Mecca and of the Ka'ba. Caetani gives great prominence to the connection between the Ka'ba and Hubal. Besides him, however, al-Lat, al-`Uzza, and al-Manat were worshipped and are mentioned in the Kur'an; Hubal is never mentioned there. What position Allah held beside these is not exactly known. The Islamic tradition has certainly elevated him at the expense of other deities. It may be considered certain that the Black Stone was not the only idol in or at the Ka'ba. The Makam Ibrahim was of course a sacred stone from very early times. Its name has not been handed down. Beside it several idols are mentioned, among them the 360 statues. (First Encyclopedia of Islam, E.J. Brill, 1987, Islam, p. 587-591) 5. All the accumulation of heathendom, which had gathered round the Ka'ba, was now thrust aside. 36o idols are said to have stood around the building. When touched with the Prophet's rod they all fell to the ground. The statue of Hubal which `Amr b. Luhaiy is said to have erected over the pit inside the Ka'ba was removed as well as the representations of the prophets. (First Encyclopedia of Islam, E.J. Brill, 1987, Islam, p. 587-591) 6. Towards the end of the fifth century, perhaps, a strong man by the name of Qusayy succeeded either by force or trickery in gaining control of the temple. He belonged to the tribe of Quraysh, an assemblage of several clans which, through him, supplanted the Khuza'a. There may be some foundation of truth in the story that Qusayy had travelled in Syria, and had brought back from there the cult of the goddesses al- 'Uzza and Manat, and had combined it with that of Hubal, the idol of the Khuzaca. It has been suggested that he may actually have been a Nabataean. (Mohammed, Maxime Rodinson, 1961, translated by Anne Carter, 1971, p 38-49) 7. The Ka'ba at Mecca, which may have initially been a shrine of Hubal alone, housed several idols; a number of others, too, were gathered in the vicinity. (Mohammed, Maxime Rodinson, 1961, translated by Anne Carter, 1971, p 38-49) 8. The use of the phrase 'the Lord of this House makes it likely that those Meccans who believed in 9. Allah as a high god-and they may have been numerous-regarded the Ka'ba as his shrine, even though there were images of other gods in it. There are stories in the Sira of pagan Meccan praying to Allah while standing beside the image of Hubal. (Muhammad's Mecca, W. Montgomery Watt, Chapter 3: Religion In Pre-Islamic Arabia, p26-45) The temple was evidently at the centre of a cult involving idol worship. The presiding deity was Hubal, a large carnelian statue kept inside the temple; 36o other idols were ranged outside. The three goddesses described in the Quran as the 'daughters of Allah' - Allat, 'Uzza and Manat - were also worshipped in the vicinity. (Islam in the World, Malise Ruthven, 1984, p 28-48) 10. Hubal 11. (from Aram. for vapour, spirit), evidently the chief deity of al-Ka'bah, was represented in human form. Beside him stood ritual arrows used for divination by the soothsayer (kdhin, from Aramaic) who drew lots by means of them. The tradition in ibn-Hisham, which makes 'Amr ibn-Luhayy the importer of this idol from Moab or Mesopotamia, may have a kernel of truth in so far as it retains a memory of the Aramaic origin of the deity. At the conquest of Makkah by Muhammad Hubal shared the lot of the other idols and was destroyed. (History Of The Arabs, Philip K. Hitti, 1937, p 96-101) The statue of Hubal was inside the building during the Age of Barbarism, but the ritual performed there was the Abrahamic one of circumcision. (The Hajj, F. E. Peters, p 3-41, 1994) 12. Amr ibn Luhayy brought with him (to Mecca) an idol called Hubal from the land of Hit in Mesopotamia.59 Hubal was one the Quraysh's greatest idols. So he set it up at the well inside the Ka'ba and ordered the people to worship it. Thus a man coming back from a journey would visit it and circumambulate the House before going to his family, and he would shave his hair before it. Muhammad ibn Ishaq said that Hubal was (made of) cornelian pearl in the shape of a human. His right hand was broken off and the Quraysh made a gold hand for it. It had a vault for the sacrifice, and there were seven arrows cast (On issues relating to) a dead person, virginity and marriage. Its offering was a hundred camels. It had a custodian (hajib). (Azraqi 1858: 73-74) Finally, among the pictures that decorated the interior of the Ka'ba in pre-Islamic days, there was one, as Azraqi says, "of Abraham as an old man." But because the figure was shown performing divination by arrows, it seems likely that it was Hubal. The suspicion is strengthened by the fact that when Muhammad finally took over the sanctuary, he permitted the picture of Jesus to remain but had that of "Abraham" removed with the dry comment, "What has Abraham to do with arrows?"" Has Hubal depicted as "Abraham the Ancient" anything to do with the "Ancient House," as the Ka'ba is often called? Or, to put the question more directly: Was it Hubal rather than Allah who was "Lord of the Ka'ba"?" Probably not. The Quran, which makes no mention of Hubal, would certainly have raised the contention. Hubal was, by the Arabs' own tradition, a newcomer to both Mecca and the Ka'ba, an outsider introduced by the ambitious Amr ibn Luhayy, and the tribal token around which the Quraysh later attempted to construct a federation with the surrounding Kinana, whose chief deity Hubal was. Hubal was introduced into the Ka'ba, but he never supplanted the god Allah, whose House it continued to be. (The Hajj, F. E. Peters, p 3-41, 1994) 13. "According to a theory held by many, this temple had been sourceally connected with the ancient worship of the sun, moon and stars, and its circumambulation by the worshippers had a symbolical reference to the rotation of the heavenly bodies. Within its precincts and in its neighborhood there were found many idols, such as Hubal, Lat, Ozza, Manah, Wadd, Sawa, Yaghut, Nasr, Isaf, Naila, etc. A black stone in the temple wall was regarded with superstitious awe as eminently sacred" (Muhammad and Muhammadanism, S.W. Koelle, 1889, p. 17-19) 14. The god Il or Ilah was originally a phase of the Moon God, but early in Arabian history the name became a general term for god, and it was this name that the Hebrews used prominently in their personal names, such as Emanuel, Israel, etc., rather than the Bapal of the northern semites proper, which was the Sun. Similarly, under Mohammed's tutelage, the relatively anonymous Ilah became Al-Ilah, The God, or Allâh, the Supreme Being. (Southern Arabia, Carleton S. Coon, Washington, D.C. Smithsonian, 1944, p.399) 15. The more the significance of the cult declined, the greater became the value of a general religious temper associated with Allah. Among the Meccans he was already coming to take the place of the old moon-god Hubal as the lord of the Ka’bah...Allah was actually the guardian of contracts, though at first these were still settled at a special ritual locality and so subordinate to the supervision of an idol. In particular he was regarded as the guardian of the alien guest, though consideration for him still lagged behind duty to one’s kinsmen." (History of the Islamic Peoples, Carl Brockelmann, p 8-10) 16. At Mekka, Allah was the chief of the gods and the special deity of the Quraish, the prophet’s tribe. Allah had three daughters: Al Uzzah (Venus) most revered of all and pleased with human sacrifice; Manah, the goddess of destiny, and Al Lat, the goddess of vegetable life. Hubal and more than 300 others made up the pantheon. The central shrine at Mekka was the Kaaba, a cube like stone structure which still stands though many times rebuilt. Imbedded in one corner is the black stone, probably a meteorite, the kissing of which is now an essential part of the pilgrimage." (Meet the Arab, John Van Ess, 1943, p. 29.) 17. "As well as worshipping idols and spirits, found in animals, plants, rocks and water, the ancient Arabs believed in several major gods and goddesses whom they considered to hold supreme power over all things. The most famous of these were Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, Manat and Hubal. The first three were thought to be the daughters of Allah (God) and their intercessions on behalf of their worshippers were therefore of great significance. Hubal was associated with the Semitic god Ba’l and with Adonis or Tammuz, the gods of spring, fertility, agriculture and plenty...Hubal’s idol used to stand by the holy well inside the Sacred House. It was made of red sapphire but had a broken arm until the tribe of Quraysh, who considered him one of their major gods, made him a replacement in solid gold." (Fabled Cities, Princes & Jin from Arab Myths and Legends, Khairt al-Saeh, 1985, p. 28-30.) 18. This was especially true of Allah, 'the God, the Divinity', the personification of the divine world in its highest form, creator of the universe and keeper of sworn oaths. In the Hejaz three goddesses had pride of place as the 'daughters of Allah'. The first of these was Allat, mentioned by Herodotus under the name of Alilat. Her name means simply 'the goddess', and she may have stood for one aspect of Venus, the morning star, although hellenized Arabs identified her with Athene. Next came Uzza, 'the all-powerful', whom other sources identify with Venus. The third was Manat, the goddess of fate, who held the shears which cut the thread of life and who was worshipped in a shrine on the sea-shore. The great god of Mecca was Hubal, an idol made of red cornelian. (Mohammed, Maxime Rodinson, 1961, translated by Anne Carter, 1971, p 16-17) 19. Sacred times and places also seem to have been respected for the most part. The Qur'an has many references to Pagans Praying to their 'Partner-gods' (shuraka') -a matter to be discussed later-and there is a report of Abu Sufyan Praying to the god Hubal at Uhud. (Muhammad's Mecca, W. Montgomery Watt, Chapter 3: Religion In Pre-Islamic Arabia, p26-45) 20. Each state or tribe had had its own moon god under a national or local name. The temples had been centres of religious life, and the priests of the moon gods had normally provided oracle services. Pilgrimage had been performed to certain temples of the moon gods, with rituals similar in many details to those of the pre-Islamic and Islamic pilgrimage to Mecca. (Britannica, Arabia, History of, p 1045, 1979) 21. South Arabian deities. In the official cults of the South Arabian kingdoms, the devotees venerated most highly a triad of deities that were astral in character: the moon god, the sun goddess, and the god equated with the planet Venus. Each of these deities bore a variety of names, depending on the region, or on a particular attribute of the divinity. Chief among the triad was the moon god, who was the protector of the principal cities. ... the people of Hadramawt the offspring of Sin (the name of the moon god in ancient Babylonia). In each region other names of the moon god appear, derived from aspects of the lunar cycle or other attributes. (Britannica, Arabian Religions, p1057, 1979) 22. Despite the prominence of the name elsewhere among Semitic peoples, the god Il (EI) appears to play a comparatively minor role in the South Arabian inscriptions. Some modem scholars have sought to explain this circumstance by equating Il with the moon god, but this opinion has not prevailed. (Britannica, Arabian Religions, p1057, 1979) 23. HUBAL, the name of an idol, which was worshipped at Mecca in the Ka`ba but otherwise is only known from a Nabataean inscription 24. (Carp. Inscr. Semit., ii. n". 189 = Jaussen et Savignac, Afission Archiol. en Arabie, i. 169, 170) where it is mentioned along with Dushara and Manutu. It is thus probable that the tradition according to which `Amr b. Luhaiy [q. v.] brought the idol with him from Moab or Mesopotamia, is correct in retaining a memory of the foreign, to be more accurate Aramaic, origin of Hubal, although the substance of the tradition is otherwise quite legendary. The name cannot be explained from the Arabic for the etymologies in Yakut etc. condemn themselves, but Pocock's supposition that Hubal is equivalent to [Hebrew] although defended by Dozy, is hardly better founded. Another tradition indeed relates that Hubal was an idol of the Banu Ki-nana, worshipped also by the Kuraish, and had been placed in the Ka'ba by Khuzaima b. Mudrika wherefore it used to be called Hubal Khuzaima. It is further related that the idol was of red carnelian in the form of a man; the Kuraish replaced the right hand which was broken, by a golden one; it was the custom to consult the idol by divination with arrows; this was done for example by `Abd al-Muttalib with reference to his son `Abd Allah, etc. We learn nothing further about the cult of this idol and the legends are quite worthless for the comprehension of the real nature of the deity. After the conquest of Mecca Hubal shared the lot of all other idols and the image was removed from the Ka'ba and destroyed.(First Encyclopedia of Islam, E.J. Brill, 1987, Hubal) Hubal 25. , an Arabian god whose worship was fostered in Mecca by the Khuza’i ‘Amr b. Luhayy [q.v.] in the first half of the 3rd century A.D. Represented at first by a baetyl, like most of the Arab deities, it was later personified, with human features, by a statue made of cornelian, with the right arm truncated (cf. Judges III, 15, XX, 16) and which the Kuraysh’s are said to have replaced by a golden arm (al-Azraki, Akhbar Makka, ed. Wustenfeld, Leipzig 1858, 74). It was from a town with thermal springs (hamma) that it was apparently brought to the Hidjaz. Having come there to bathe in the waters and thereby being cured of a serious illness, `Ainr b. Luhayy, it is said, had taken back this statue with him. (The Encyclopaedia Of Islam, New Edition, Edited By B. Lewis, V. L. Menage, Ch. Pellat And J. Schacht, 1971, HUBAL page 536) Having asked the local inhabitants what was the justification of their idols, `Amr b. Lullayy is said to have received the following reply: .. these are the lords (arbab) whom we have chosen, having [simultaneously] the form of the celestial temples (al-hayakil al-`ulwiyya) and that of Human beings. We ask them for victory over our enemies and they grant it to us; we ask them for rain, in time of drought, and they give it to us". In the Ka'ba, Hubal must have preserved this original character of a stellar deity; but his most characteristic role was that of a cleromantic divinity. Indeed, it was before the god that the sacred lots were cast. The statue stood inside the Ka'ba, above the sacred well which was thought to have been dug by Abraham to receive the offerings brought to the sanctuary (al-Azraki, 31). Another Somewhat surprising fact indicates a connection with Abraham: in the mural paintings of the pre-islamic Ka'ba, Hubal, represented as an old man holding arrows, seems to have been assimilated with Abraham (al-Azraki, III). (The Encyclopaedia Of Islam, New Edition, Edited By B. Lewis, V. L. Menage, Ch. Pellat And J. Schacht, 1971, HUBAL page 536) 26. The earliest mention of the name Hubal occurs in a Nabataean inscription (CIS, ii, 198), in which it appears as an associate of Manawat. According to al-Azraki (73), its cult was the best organized in the Ka'ba: a hadjib guarded the idol; he received the offerings and sacrifices that were brought; he shook the arrows of divination before it. When a Meccan returned from travelling, he used to go to give thanks to the god before going to his own home. In the field of popular piety at least, it eclipsed the other deities in the Meccan pantheon, to such an extent that there has been some speculation whether the unanimity regarding this cult did not help to prepare the way for Allah. (The Encyclopaedia Of Islam, New Edition, Edited By B. Lewis, V. L. Menage, Ch. Pellat And J. Schacht, 1971, HUBAL page 536) 27. "the Ka’aba was dedicated to al-Ilah, the High God of the pagan Arabs, despite the presiding effigy of Hubal. By the beginning of the seventh century, al-Ilah had become more important than before in the religious life many of the Arabs. Many primitive religions develop a belief in a High God, who is sometimes called the Sky God...But they also carried on worshipping the other gods, who remained deeply important to them." (Karen Armstrong, Muhammad, (New York: San Francisco, 1992) p. 69.)
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quote:Originally posted by mike rozier: What is quite certain is that the Pagan Arabs in Mecca worshipped a moon god called Hubal at the Kabah. Hubal was the Lord of the Kabah, being the highest ranking god of the 360 gods worshipped in the Kabah. Now here is the amazing thing. Allah was also worshipped as the Lord of the Kabah. Yet, Allah was never represented by any idol of physical nature. To suggest the polytheistic Arabs never created an idol to represent Allah is simply unreasonable and unbelievable. We suggest rather, that Hubal was who the Pagan Arabs addressed their prayers to Allah through. In other words, Allah was Hubal. Muhammad came along and smashed the idol of Hubal and now the Arabs had no idol of Allah to pray through any more and Hubal was forgotten. There are stories in the Sira of pagan Meccan praying to Allah while standing beside the image of Hubal. (Muhammad's Mecca, W. Montgomery Watt, Chapter 3: Religion In Pre-Islamic Arabia, p26-45) We suggest that Arabs stood beside Hubal and prayed to him, referring to him as Allah.
1. "II. The Religion of the Pre-Islamic Arabs The life of the pre-Islamic Arabs, especially in the Hijaz depended on trade and they made a trade of their religion as well. About four hundred years before the birth of Muhammad one Amr bin Lahyo bin Harath bin Amr ul-Qais bin Thalaba bin Azd bin Khalan bin Babalyun bin Saba, a descendant of Qahtan and king of Hijaz, had put an idol called Hubal on the roof of the Kaba. This was one of the chief deities of the Quraish before Islam. It is said that there were altogether three hundred and sixty idols in and about the Kaba and that each tribes had its own deity...The shapes and figures of the idols were also made according to the fancy of the worshippers. Thus Wadd was shaped like a man, Naila like a woman, so was Suwa. Yaghuth was made in the shape of lion, Yauq like a horse and Nasr like a vulture.. Besides Hubal, there was another idol called Shams placed on the roof of the Kaba...The blood of the sacrificial animals brought by the pilgrims was offered to the deities in the Kaba and sometimes even human beings were sacrificed and offered to the god... Besides idol-worship, they also worshipped the stars, the sun and the moon." (Muhammad The Holy Prophet, Hafiz Ghulam Sarwar (Pakistan), p 18-19, Muslim) 2. Among the gods worshiped by the Quraysh, the greatest was Hubal, this on the expert testimony of Ibn al-Kalbi: "The Quraysh had several idols in and around the Ka'ba. The greatest of these was Hubal. It was made, as I was told, of red agate, in the form of a man with the right hand broken off It came into the possession of the Quraysh in this condition, and they therefore made for it a hand of gold.... It stood inside the Ka'ba, and in front of it were seven divinatory arrows. On one of these was written the word "Pure," and on another "associated alien." Whenever the lineage of a new-born was doubted, they would offer a sacrifice to Hubal and then shuffle the arrows and throw them. If the arrows showed the word "Pure," the child would be declared legitimate and the tribe would accept him. If, however, the arrows showed "associated alien," the child would be declared illegitimate and would reject him. The third arrow had to do with divination concerning the dead, while the fourth was for divination about marriage. The purpose of the three remaining arrows has not been explained. Whenever they disagreed concerning something, or proposed to embark upon a journey, or undertake some other project, they would proceed to Hubal and shuffle the divinatory arrows before it. Whatever result they obtained they would follow and do accordingly. (Ibn al-Kalbi, Book of Idols 28-29 = Ibn al-Kalbi 1952: 23-24) (The Hajj, F. E. Peters, p 3-41, 1994) 3. "Before Muhammad appeared, the Kaaba was surrounded by 360 idols, and every Arab house had its god. Arabs also believed in jinn (subtle beings), and some vague divinity with many offspring. Among the major deities of the pre-Islamic era were al-Lat ("the Goddess"), worshiped in the shape of a square stone; al-Uzzah ("the Mighty"), a goddess identified with the morning star and worshiped as a thigh-bone-shaped slab of granite between al Talf and Mecca; Manat, the goddess of destiny, worshiped as a black stone on the road between Mecca and Medina; and the moon god, Hubal, whose worship was connected with the Black Stone of the Kaaba. The stones were said to have fallen from the sun, moon, stars, and planets and to represent cosmic forces. The so-called Black Stone (actually the color of burnt umber) that Muslims revere today is the same one that their forebears had worshiped well before Muhammad and that they believed had come from the moon. (No scientific investigation has ever been performed on the stone. In 930, the stone was removed and shattered by an Iraqi sect of Qarmatians, but the pieces were later returned. The pieces, sealed in pitch and held in place by silver wire, measure about 10 inches in diameter altogether and several feet high; they are venerated today in patched-together form.)" (The Joy of Sects, Peter Occhigrosso, 1996) 4. It is not related that the Black Stone was connected with any special god. In the Ka'ba was the statue of the god Hubal who might be called the god of Mecca and of the Ka'ba. Caetani gives great prominence to the connection between the Ka'ba and Hubal. Besides him, however, al-Lat, al-`Uzza, and al-Manat were worshipped and are mentioned in the Kur'an; Hubal is never mentioned there. What position Allah held beside these is not exactly known. The Islamic tradition has certainly elevated him at the expense of other deities. It may be considered certain that the Black Stone was not the only idol in or at the Ka'ba. The Makam Ibrahim was of course a sacred stone from very early times. Its name has not been handed down. Beside it several idols are mentioned, among them the 360 statues. (First Encyclopedia of Islam, E.J. Brill, 1987, Islam, p. 587-591) 5. All the accumulation of heathendom, which had gathered round the Ka'ba, was now thrust aside. 36o idols are said to have stood around the building. When touched with the Prophet's rod they all fell to the ground. The statue of Hubal which `Amr b. Luhaiy is said to have erected over the pit inside the Ka'ba was removed as well as the representations of the prophets. (First Encyclopedia of Islam, E.J. Brill, 1987, Islam, p. 587-591) 6. Towards the end of the fifth century, perhaps, a strong man by the name of Qusayy succeeded either by force or trickery in gaining control of the temple. He belonged to the tribe of Quraysh, an assemblage of several clans which, through him, supplanted the Khuza'a. There may be some foundation of truth in the story that Qusayy had travelled in Syria, and had brought back from there the cult of the goddesses al- 'Uzza and Manat, and had combined it with that of Hubal, the idol of the Khuzaca. It has been suggested that he may actually have been a Nabataean. (Mohammed, Maxime Rodinson, 1961, translated by Anne Carter, 1971, p 38-49) 7. The Ka'ba at Mecca, which may have initially been a shrine of Hubal alone, housed several idols; a number of others, too, were gathered in the vicinity. (Mohammed, Maxime Rodinson, 1961, translated by Anne Carter, 1971, p 38-49) 8. The use of the phrase 'the Lord of this House makes it likely that those Meccans who believed in 9. Allah as a high god-and they may have been numerous-regarded the Ka'ba as his shrine, even though there were images of other gods in it. There are stories in the Sira of pagan Meccan praying to Allah while standing beside the image of Hubal. (Muhammad's Mecca, W. Montgomery Watt, Chapter 3: Religion In Pre-Islamic Arabia, p26-45) The temple was evidently at the centre of a cult involving idol worship. The presiding deity was Hubal, a large carnelian statue kept inside the temple; 36o other idols were ranged outside. The three goddesses described in the Quran as the 'daughters of Allah' - Allat, 'Uzza and Manat - were also worshipped in the vicinity. (Islam in the World, Malise Ruthven, 1984, p 28-48) 10. Hubal 11. (from Aram. for vapour, spirit), evidently the chief deity of al-Ka'bah, was represented in human form. Beside him stood ritual arrows used for divination by the soothsayer (kdhin, from Aramaic) who drew lots by means of them. The tradition in ibn-Hisham, which makes 'Amr ibn-Luhayy the importer of this idol from Moab or Mesopotamia, may have a kernel of truth in so far as it retains a memory of the Aramaic origin of the deity. At the conquest of Makkah by Muhammad Hubal shared the lot of the other idols and was destroyed. (History Of The Arabs, Philip K. Hitti, 1937, p 96-101) The statue of Hubal was inside the building during the Age of Barbarism, but the ritual performed there was the Abrahamic one of circumcision. (The Hajj, F. E. Peters, p 3-41, 1994) 12. Amr ibn Luhayy brought with him (to Mecca) an idol called Hubal from the land of Hit in Mesopotamia.59 Hubal was one the Quraysh's greatest idols. So he set it up at the well inside the Ka'ba and ordered the people to worship it. Thus a man coming back from a journey would visit it and circumambulate the House before going to his family, and he would shave his hair before it. Muhammad ibn Ishaq said that Hubal was (made of) cornelian pearl in the shape of a human. His right hand was broken off and the Quraysh made a gold hand for it. It had a vault for the sacrifice, and there were seven arrows cast (On issues relating to) a dead person, virginity and marriage. Its offering was a hundred camels. It had a custodian (hajib). (Azraqi 1858: 73-74) Finally, among the pictures that decorated the interior of the Ka'ba in pre-Islamic days, there was one, as Azraqi says, "of Abraham as an old man." But because the figure was shown performing divination by arrows, it seems likely that it was Hubal. The suspicion is strengthened by the fact that when Muhammad finally took over the sanctuary, he permitted the picture of Jesus to remain but had that of "Abraham" removed with the dry comment, "What has Abraham to do with arrows?"" Has Hubal depicted as "Abraham the Ancient" anything to do with the "Ancient House," as the Ka'ba is often called? Or, to put the question more directly: Was it Hubal rather than Allah who was "Lord of the Ka'ba"?" Probably not. The Quran, which makes no mention of Hubal, would certainly have raised the contention. Hubal was, by the Arabs' own tradition, a newcomer to both Mecca and the Ka'ba, an outsider introduced by the ambitious Amr ibn Luhayy, and the tribal token around which the Quraysh later attempted to construct a federation with the surrounding Kinana, whose chief deity Hubal was. Hubal was introduced into the Ka'ba, but he never supplanted the god Allah, whose House it continued to be. (The Hajj, F. E. Peters, p 3-41, 1994) 13. "According to a theory held by many, this temple had been sourceally connected with the ancient worship of the sun, moon and stars, and its circumambulation by the worshippers had a symbolical reference to the rotation of the heavenly bodies. Within its precincts and in its neighborhood there were found many idols, such as Hubal, Lat, Ozza, Manah, Wadd, Sawa, Yaghut, Nasr, Isaf, Naila, etc. A black stone in the temple wall was regarded with superstitious awe as eminently sacred" (Muhammad and Muhammadanism, S.W. Koelle, 1889, p. 17-19) 14. The god Il or Ilah was originally a phase of the Moon God, but early in Arabian history the name became a general term for god, and it was this name that the Hebrews used prominently in their personal names, such as Emanuel, Israel, etc., rather than the Bapal of the northern semites proper, which was the Sun. Similarly, under Mohammed's tutelage, the relatively anonymous Ilah became Al-Ilah, The God, or Allâh, the Supreme Being. (Southern Arabia, Carleton S. Coon, Washington, D.C. Smithsonian, 1944, p.399) 15. The more the significance of the cult declined, the greater became the value of a general religious temper associated with Allah. Among the Meccans he was already coming to take the place of the old moon-god Hubal as the lord of the Ka’bah...Allah was actually the guardian of contracts, though at first these were still settled at a special ritual locality and so subordinate to the supervision of an idol. In particular he was regarded as the guardian of the alien guest, though consideration for him still lagged behind duty to one’s kinsmen." (History of the Islamic Peoples, Carl Brockelmann, p 8-10) 16. At Mekka, Allah was the chief of the gods and the special deity of the Quraish, the prophet’s tribe. Allah had three daughters: Al Uzzah (Venus) most revered of all and pleased with human sacrifice; Manah, the goddess of destiny, and Al Lat, the goddess of vegetable life. Hubal and more than 300 others made up the pantheon. The central shrine at Mekka was the Kaaba, a cube like stone structure which still stands though many times rebuilt. Imbedded in one corner is the black stone, probably a meteorite, the kissing of which is now an essential part of the pilgrimage." (Meet the Arab, John Van Ess, 1943, p. 29.) 17. "As well as worshipping idols and spirits, found in animals, plants, rocks and water, the ancient Arabs believed in several major gods and goddesses whom they considered to hold supreme power over all things. The most famous of these were Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, Manat and Hubal. The first three were thought to be the daughters of Allah (God) and their intercessions on behalf of their worshippers were therefore of great significance. Hubal was associated with the Semitic god Ba’l and with Adonis or Tammuz, the gods of spring, fertility, agriculture and plenty...Hubal’s idol used to stand by the holy well inside the Sacred House. It was made of red sapphire but had a broken arm until the tribe of Quraysh, who considered him one of their major gods, made him a replacement in solid gold." (Fabled Cities, Princes & Jin from Arab Myths and Legends, Khairt al-Saeh, 1985, p. 28-30.) 18. This was especially true of Allah, 'the God, the Divinity', the personification of the divine world in its highest form, creator of the universe and keeper of sworn oaths. In the Hejaz three goddesses had pride of place as the 'daughters of Allah'. The first of these was Allat, mentioned by Herodotus under the name of Alilat. Her name means simply 'the goddess', and she may have stood for one aspect of Venus, the morning star, although hellenized Arabs identified her with Athene. Next came Uzza, 'the all-powerful', whom other sources identify with Venus. The third was Manat, the goddess of fate, who held the shears which cut the thread of life and who was worshipped in a shrine on the sea-shore. The great god of Mecca was Hubal, an idol made of red cornelian. (Mohammed, Maxime Rodinson, 1961, translated by Anne Carter, 1971, p 16-17) 19. Sacred times and places also seem to have been respected for the most part. The Qur'an has many references to Pagans Praying to their 'Partner-gods' (shuraka') -a matter to be discussed later-and there is a report of Abu Sufyan Praying to the god Hubal at Uhud. (Muhammad's Mecca, W. Montgomery Watt, Chapter 3: Religion In Pre-Islamic Arabia, p26-45) 20. Each state or tribe had had its own moon god under a national or local name. The temples had been centres of religious life, and the priests of the moon gods had normally provided oracle services. Pilgrimage had been performed to certain temples of the moon gods, with rituals similar in many details to those of the pre-Islamic and Islamic pilgrimage to Mecca. (Britannica, Arabia, History of, p 1045, 1979) 21. South Arabian deities. In the official cults of the South Arabian kingdoms, the devotees venerated most highly a triad of deities that were astral in character: the moon god, the sun goddess, and the god equated with the planet Venus. Each of these deities bore a variety of names, depending on the region, or on a particular attribute of the divinity. Chief among the triad was the moon god, who was the protector of the principal cities. ... the people of Hadramawt the offspring of Sin (the name of the moon god in ancient Babylonia). In each region other names of the moon god appear, derived from aspects of the lunar cycle or other attributes. (Britannica, Arabian Religions, p1057, 1979) 22. Despite the prominence of the name elsewhere among Semitic peoples, the god Il (EI) appears to play a comparatively minor role in the South Arabian inscriptions. Some modem scholars have sought to explain this circumstance by equating Il with the moon god, but this opinion has not prevailed. (Britannica, Arabian Religions, p1057, 1979) 23. HUBAL, the name of an idol, which was worshipped at Mecca in the Ka`ba but otherwise is only known from a Nabataean inscription 24. (Carp. Inscr. Semit., ii. n". 189 = Jaussen et Savignac, Afission Archiol. en Arabie, i. 169, 170) where it is mentioned along with Dushara and Manutu. It is thus probable that the tradition according to which `Amr b. Luhaiy [q. v.] brought the idol with him from Moab or Mesopotamia, is correct in retaining a memory of the foreign, to be more accurate Aramaic, origin of Hubal, although the substance of the tradition is otherwise quite legendary. The name cannot be explained from the Arabic for the etymologies in Yakut etc. condemn themselves, but Pocock's supposition that Hubal is equivalent to [Hebrew] although defended by Dozy, is hardly better founded. Another tradition indeed relates that Hubal was an idol of the Banu Ki-nana, worshipped also by the Kuraish, and had been placed in the Ka'ba by Khuzaima b. Mudrika wherefore it used to be called Hubal Khuzaima. It is further related that the idol was of red carnelian in the form of a man; the Kuraish replaced the right hand which was broken, by a golden one; it was the custom to consult the idol by divination with arrows; this was done for example by `Abd al-Muttalib with reference to his son `Abd Allah, etc. We learn nothing further about the cult of this idol and the legends are quite worthless for the comprehension of the real nature of the deity. After the conquest of Mecca Hubal shared the lot of all other idols and the image was removed from the Ka'ba and destroyed.(First Encyclopedia of Islam, E.J. Brill, 1987, Hubal) Hubal 25. , an Arabian god whose worship was fostered in Mecca by the Khuza’i ‘Amr b. Luhayy [q.v.] in the first half of the 3rd century A.D. Represented at first by a baetyl, like most of the Arab deities, it was later personified, with human features, by a statue made of cornelian, with the right arm truncated (cf. Judges III, 15, XX, 16) and which the Kuraysh’s are said to have replaced by a golden arm (al-Azraki, Akhbar Makka, ed. Wustenfeld, Leipzig 1858, 74). It was from a town with thermal springs (hamma) that it was apparently brought to the Hidjaz. Having come there to bathe in the waters and thereby being cured of a serious illness, `Ainr b. Luhayy, it is said, had taken back this statue with him. (The Encyclopaedia Of Islam, New Edition, Edited By B. Lewis, V. L. Menage, Ch. Pellat And J. Schacht, 1971, HUBAL page 536) Having asked the local inhabitants what was the justification of their idols, `Amr b. Lullayy is said to have received the following reply: .. these are the lords (arbab) whom we have chosen, having [simultaneously] the form of the celestial temples (al-hayakil al-`ulwiyya) and that of Human beings. We ask them for victory over our enemies and they grant it to us; we ask them for rain, in time of drought, and they give it to us". In the Ka'ba, Hubal must have preserved this original character of a stellar deity; but his most characteristic role was that of a cleromantic divinity. Indeed, it was before the god that the sacred lots were cast. The statue stood inside the Ka'ba, above the sacred well which was thought to have been dug by Abraham to receive the offerings brought to the sanctuary (al-Azraki, 31). Another Somewhat surprising fact indicates a connection with Abraham: in the mural paintings of the pre-islamic Ka'ba, Hubal, represented as an old man holding arrows, seems to have been assimilated with Abraham (al-Azraki, III). (The Encyclopaedia Of Islam, New Edition, Edited By B. Lewis, V. L. Menage, Ch. Pellat And J. Schacht, 1971, HUBAL page 536) 26. The earliest mention of the name Hubal occurs in a Nabataean inscription (CIS, ii, 198), in which it appears as an associate of Manawat. According to al-Azraki (73), its cult was the best organized in the Ka'ba: a hadjib guarded the idol; he received the offerings and sacrifices that were brought; he shook the arrows of divination before it. When a Meccan returned from travelling, he used to go to give thanks to the god before going to his own home. In the field of popular piety at least, it eclipsed the other deities in the Meccan pantheon, to such an extent that there has been some speculation whether the unanimity regarding this cult did not help to prepare the way for Allah. (The Encyclopaedia Of Islam, New Edition, Edited By B. Lewis, V. L. Menage, Ch. Pellat And J. Schacht, 1971, HUBAL page 536) 27. "the Ka’aba was dedicated to al-Ilah, the High God of the pagan Arabs, despite the presiding effigy of Hubal. By the beginning of the seventh century, al-Ilah had become more important than before in the religious life many of the Arabs. Many primitive religions develop a belief in a High God, who is sometimes called the Sky God...But they also carried on worshipping the other gods, who remained deeply important to them." (Karen Armstrong, Muhammad, (New York: San Francisco, 1992) p. 69.)
Mike I stopped reading your crap when you said Allah was also worshipped...because if you were a knowledgeable person you would have known Allah is God in Arabic. It is used by anyone who speaks Arabic to refer to God. The Christians Arabs today use it the same way muslims use it and the same way Pagans in Mecca used it. The word Allah simply means God and there millions of way of saying it.
Allah=God in English
Posts: 554 | From: Somaliland | Registered: Sep 2005
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____________________________________________________________________________________________________ First off all you are the lunatic who trapped in the past, not the mufti of Egypt who is one of the most respected Islamic schoolers in world. ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Well I hope the mufti respect Ancient Kemet culture
Ceelgabo_11 Quote: ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Second off all Islam was not influenced by the self worshipping Pharoes.. ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Yes Islam was influenced by the Kings of Kemet
Not debatable
AKHENATON
The Creator of Monotheism (Note before Prophet Muhammad ) (1375-1358 B.C) Akhenaton was the first ruler in recorded history to believe in the concept of One God . He also taught this concept to all his citizens. He built a new city in the desert that was dedicated to religion, art and music. This new city, Akhenaton (now Tell el Amara), with its lush gardens and magnificent buildings is where . Akhenaton and his wife Queen Nefertiti changed Kemet's culture so radically that their influence is felt for centuries right up until today
Then again Ceelgabo you could debate the issue, but that would just mean you are in denial.
quote:Originally posted by Masonic Rebel: Ceelgabo_11 Quote:
____________________________________________________________________________________________________ First off all you are the lunatic who trapped in the past, not the mufti of Egypt who is one of the most respected Islamic schoolers in world. ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Well I hope the mufti respect Ancient Kemet culture
Ceelgabo_11 Quote: ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Second off all Islam was not influenced by the self worshipping Pharoes.. ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Yes Islam was influenced by the Kings of Kemet
Not debatable
AKHENATON
The Creator of Monotheism (Note before Prophet Muhammad ) (1375-1358 B.C) Akhenaton was the first ruler in recorded history to believe in the concept of One God . He also taught this concept to all his citizens. He built a new city in the desert that was dedicated to religion, art and music. This new city, Akhenaton (now Tell el Amara), with its lush gardens and magnificent buildings is where . Akhenaton and his wife Queen Nefertiti changed Kemet's culture so radically that their influence is felt for centuries right up until today
Then again Ceelgabo you could debate the issue, but that would just mean you are in denial.
Masonic
There is not one single verse in the Koran that mentions Akhnaten..so I fail to understand how he influenced Islam. The other thing is prophet that believed in one true god existed thousands of years before Akhnaten...prophets from Adam, Noah,Abraham(pbuthem) existed long before Akhnaten. If Ahknaten believed in one true god with no partners than he was most likely influenced by prophets God has sent down to mankind.
Posts: 554 | From: Somaliland | Registered: Sep 2005
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There is not one single verse in the Koran that mentions Akhnaten..so I fail to understand how he influenced Islam. ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
AKHENATON or Monotheism is only one example of Kemet influence on Islam
Here's one more and I'll let you think about it
Sure Akhenaton is not in the Koran but Jesus is
Islam was influenced by Christianity and Christianity was influenced by Kemet Spiritual Systems
For example: Is Jesus Christ in the Bible and Koran the Son of God or the Sun of God?
You decide
Posts: 567 | From: USA | Registered: Nov 2005
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In fact Akhenaton was NOT the creator of monotheism- he substituted himself for God...
Those that claim that Akhenaton was monotheistic,was a piece loving pharaon etc-- saw too many Hollywood bent movies..on that subject..
He was an imposter and was duly rejected by the whole of the AE society..
As for Allah-the God Moon ?This is bad history- the moon has next to always been associated with a feminine deity,that is a goddess..usually of fertility..
ARAB language- Islam- one must ask oneself- how come a few thousands of illiterate desert Bedouins were able to invade such a country like Egypt,conquer it and impose their values within a short span of time..
Read(in a surah ?) that the Arabic language and writing become the lingua de facto within 12 yrs (?!)
The only possible logical explanations are as per follows:
-no opposition from the elites(which was true) -the native people welcomed these not so new strangers(AE had a long standing commercial relationship with people of the desert in the past) as it could mean better living conditions.
Also they were NOT Europeans,were "Semites".etc..
Then why was is so easy in the cultural domain?
-the new Islam religion incorporated many facets of AE customs and religious beliefs that had been previously incorporated by the Coptic Church.
They did a brilliant thing- they removed the"Roman values or Western beliefs" and re-established the values of the AE who had been following them for many millenia..
So many festivals,customs etc were then recognizable by the Egyptians as being their own old ancient ways and they could freely practice them once again ,albeit under a new name and religion.
And Islam became the center of their life-society just like the AE religion once had been..
(my interpretations here)
Arabic- language-writing- many words were common to both people BUT the muslism modified the DEMOTIC script and it became the "Arabic script". This was done to:
-prevent people from reading Coptic texts(religious and otherwise) and ideas being vehiculated by Western values(re writings of the Greeks etc...)
-make sure that the Egyptians could never read about their glorious past and their ancestral real beliefs.. for it would have meant the death knell of Islam in Egypt..
Fundamentalism in Egypt-yes,there will be more attacks(it will be spectacular) I am afraid and I think one will have to look up for MOSSAD controlled operations just to remind the present day rulers who is really the boss here..
Some mentionned the Sphinx ?Pyramids ? No foot and run fanatics operation could inflict any real damage here but- Library of Alexandria,Cairo Museum etc...
ryb
Note-If I were in the "Dept of Antiquity" I would be very wary of all these AE artefacts being put on display in various foreign countries.
Said governments with UNESCO could declare a CULTURAL EMERGENCY and confiscate all the exhibited goods until the situation clears up in Egypt which will mean never.
So all the AE treasures ,etc on LOAN are in great danger of being lost(stolen). And a few Mossad operations in Egypt might just be the opportunity to do it..
Posts: 305 | Registered: May 2006
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WhatBox Quote: ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Do sunny sun and sonny, son sound the same in other languages like they do in English? ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Good question maybe someone else on the forum can answer this one.
I am with your cause, like I'm finding myself to be, lately and usually, but do the connects connect.or did Anglos translators confuse themselves? ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
The Confusion started with the First Council of Nicaea or the Conference Council of Bishops at Nicea 325 AD
Posts: 567 | From: USA | Registered: Nov 2005
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ray2006 Quote: ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ ARAB language- Islam- one must ask oneself- how come a few thousands of illiterate desert Bedouins were able to invade such a country like Egypt,conquer it and impose their values within a short span of time.. ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
That's Simple
The same way the Puritans came to America from Europe and wiped out almost half of the Native American population.
The Bedouins may have came in as friends but that situation changed somehow.
Posts: 567 | From: USA | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Masonic Rebel: Ceelgabo Quote: ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
There is not one single verse in the Koran that mentions Akhnaten..so I fail to understand how he influenced Islam. ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
AKHENATON or Monotheism is only one example of Kemet influence on Islam
Here's one more and I'll let you think about it
Sure Akhenaton is not in the Koran but Jesus is
Islam was influenced by Christianity and Christianity was influenced by Kemet Spiritual Systems
For example: Is Jesus Christ in the Bible and Koran the Son of God or the Sun of God?
You decide
If Islam is influenced by Christainty and Judeism than how come we ain't Christains or Jews. I mean wouldn't we have worshipped Jesus like Christains or believed in Torah if we were influenced by these two Abrahamic religions, but we don't. Islam is continuation of what Adam, Noah, Joseph, Dawoud, Idris, Abraham, Moses, Jesus( pbuthem) all thought. The message of Islam is the message all these prophets thought their people to believe in one god and to believe in the judgement day..Mohammed(pbuh) being the last prophet of god and The holy Qoran being the last book revealed by almighty. The reason why muslims are not influenced by Christians is that Christians believe in three gods...the holy ghost, the father and the son..they also believe the messenger of god Issa/Jesus(pbuh)to be god himself. The jews corrupted the teaching of Muse(pbuh) by making their faith a religion based on bloodline rather than being for everyone.
BS; Issa(pbuh) in the koran is prophet of god and nothing more...he is not the son of god or God.
Posts: 554 | From: Somaliland | Registered: Sep 2005
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The same way the Puritans came to America from Europe and wiped out almost half of the Native American population.
The Bedouins may have came in as friends but that situation changed somehow
The Arabs that invaded Egypt did so with the promise to be more tolerant than the Byzantine overlords in Egypt during the time. Infact, the phophet Muhammed[p.b.u.h.] according to a hadith told his companion Amr ibn Alas' to go into Egypt and to treat the Egyptians fairly and just because of the connection they had with Hagar[who might be mythical]. Muhammed also had a Qubti[Egyptian wife] named Mariam. She bore him a son that later died.
However, you cannot compare the European invasion of North America to Arabs invading Egypt because the Arab invaders and people after them never wiped out the population. The Arab rulers did import some bedouin tribes and settle them in certain villages in the Delta and Middle Egypt but never massacred the entire population of Egypt. To massacre the population would have been stupid because most of the tax payers were indigenous Egyptians vs. the small Arab population in Al-Fustat. Most of the Arabs built a city known as Al-Fustat and lived there versus the majority Egyptian population that remained rural.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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If Islam is influenced by Christainty and Judeism than how come we ain't Christains or Jews. I mean wouldn't we have worshipped Jesus like Christains or believed in Torah if we were influenced by these two Abrahamic religions, but we don't. Islam is continuation of what Adam, Noah, Joseph, Dawoud, Idris, Abraham, Moses, Jesus( pbuthem) all thought. ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Ok must of us know who study Kemet knows that Jesus Noah and Adam Never really existed, so why then does the Koran speaks of them?
Understand your belief is Just a belief no different from Christian, Judaism or the Egyptian Spiritual system that some folks like to call pagan, but this so-called Pagan Spiritual System influenced the other 3 religions
The Story of Jesus (Horus reputably known as the original trinity; the father, the mother, the son )was already told by the Kemetians
The Story of Adam (Orsis) and Eve (Isis) was Already told by the Kemetians
Posts: 567 | From: USA | Registered: Nov 2005
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Ausar that is the most biggest lie ever the arab invaders killed many africans in egypt and all over the world they actually came to africa 400 years before the Europeans and slaughtered the whole african populations of Northern Africa and forced many to become muslims for instance my family use to be jews in elephantine now we are muslims how did that happen u say they killed and slaughtered my family until we became muslims. Everyone says Islam entered Egypt and africa with peace that is the most biggest lie of this earth no one ever wants to talk about the slavery murder genocide that the arabs did to my beloved Egypt and Africa as a whole they burnt everything that reminded them of Africa u should read the historical book by the Arab historian and traveler Ibn Kaldun he even calls the africans pagans and Kaffirs who run around naked and worship idols this silly arab was a racist and he even goes so far as to say that invading there land and bringing these kaffirs islam is there duty. Ausar i have been taught this lie that has been going on for so long in Egyptian schools i cant believe that the african americans in america dont even bring this subject up i think every black african should know that the Arabs started slavery in africa and this is a fact.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Ausar that is the most biggest lie ever the arab invaders killed many africans in egypt and all over the world they actually came to africa 400 years before the Europeans and slaughtered the whole african populations of Northern Africa and forced many to become muslims for instance my family use to be jews in elephantine now we are muslims how did that happen u say they killed and slaughtered my family until we became muslims
Yes, the Arabs did have very fierce battles with the Imazigh[Berber] people of Northwestern Africa and the Christian kingdoms of Nubia. Infact, at the Battle of Dongola the Arabs lost to the Nubians and were forced to sign a baqt treaty with them.
Jews in Elephantine? Of course there were Jews during the Persian occupation of Egypt. Many Jews were stationed there as mercenaries and many itnermarried with the local population. Most of the Jewish population in Elephantine were gone by the Byzantine period. I am not doubting your story but how can you exist if nearly all your family is massacred.
Cairo,Fayoum and many other areas in Egypt during the Islamic period had large amounts of Jews. Most of the Egyptian Jews went to Israel when Nasser came into power. If everybody was forced to convert then could you explain such a large pressence of Egyptian Jews until the Nasserite era?
There were no massacres of Egyptians during the Islamic era. Why would Arabs massacre their main kharj and jizya tax base? Yes, in Magrebian countries the Arabs did push the Berbers southward into the Sahara and Sahel or into the mountains.
Understand, I am not excusing the actions of Arabs that comitted the atrosities they did. All are inexcusable.
quote:Everyone says Islam entered Egypt and africa with peace that is the most biggest lie of this earth no one ever wants to talk about the slavery murder genocide that the arabs did to my beloved Egypt and Africa as a whole they burnt everything that reminded them of Africa u should read the historical book by the Arab historian and traveler Ibn Kaldun he even calls the africans pagans and Kaffirs who run around naked and worship idols this silly arab was a racist and he even goes so far as to say that invading there land and bringing these kaffirs islam is there duty. Ausar i have been taught this lie that has been going on for so long in Egyptian schools i cant believe that the african americans in america dont even bring this subject up i think every black african should know that the Arabs started slavery in africa and this is a fact
I read many of the Arabic authors you mention including Ibn Khaldun. Indeed, Khaldun's opinions of inner African people was very biased and racist. I am not excusing any of the racist attitudes of the medieval Arabic authors. What I question is the widescale Arabic massacres in the Nile Valley or in the greater area of Africa.
Ibn Khaldun himself likens the Bani Hilal and Bani Sulaim to locuts the way they ravaged Northwestern African areas. Where is your evidence of widescale slavery in Egypt of indigenous Egyptians? I don't doubt opression by various bedouin tribes of the fellahin but I seriously doubt widescale massacres and slavery.
Yes, Egyptian schools are very biased in their teaching of medieval Egyptian history. I am well aware of the Arab invovlement in many areas of slavery and they should not be excused.
Islam may have been adopted by force by many Egyptians but many also converted to Sufism by free choice. That is why we have Mawali Egyptians and also stories in areas like Luxor of Abul'l al Hagag of convering the local populations. Many also probally converted to get rid of the jizya and kkarj tax burden. After all, during the Abbasid a qadi decided that both Egyptian Muslims and Christians had to pay the kharj.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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You cannot compare the European invasion of North America to Arabs invading Egypt because the Arab invaders and people after them never wiped out the population
Yes I can
The Arab Republic of Egypt ?
How about the African Republic of Kemet ?
"Fille Fellahin." A hand-colored Victorian-era postcard of a young Fellahin girl of Egypt.
What happen to the Indigenous Population ?
Posts: 567 | From: USA | Registered: Nov 2005
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The indigenous population of Egypt was never wiped out by Arabs nor any of the invaders of Egypt. The reason why Egypt is called The Arab Republic today is because of Nasser during 1954 remaned it to the Arab republic.
Where is your historical evidence of an Arab invasion that wiped out the original Egyptian population? Again, you cannot compare the invasion of Egypt by Arabs to North America by Europeans. Desendants of native Americans still exist in all parts of the America just in fewer numbers than the original numbers. Native Americans were mainly desimated by diease.
The picture of the Fallaha pretty much answers your question on where the indigenous population went. The answer is no where.
See the following link if you wish to continue the debate. I started a thread in the After the Pharoahs forum:
quote:Originally posted by Masonic Rebel: Ceelgabo Quote: ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
If Islam is influenced by Christainty and Judeism than how come we ain't Christains or Jews. I mean wouldn't we have worshipped Jesus like Christains or believed in Torah if we were influenced by these two Abrahamic religions, but we don't. Islam is continuation of what Adam, Noah, Joseph, Dawoud, Idris, Abraham, Moses, Jesus( pbuthem) all thought. ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Ok must of us know who study Kemet knows that Jesus Noah and Adam Never really existed, so why then does the Koran speaks of them?
Understand your belief is Just a belief no different from Christian, Judaism or the Egyptian Spiritual system that some folks like to call pagan, but this so-called Pagan Spiritual System influenced the other 3 religions
The Story of Jesus (Horus reputably known as the original trinity; the father, the mother, the son )was already told by the Kemetians
The Story of Adam (Orsis) and Eve (Isis) was Already told by the Kemetians
Ok must of us know who study Kemet knows that Jesus Noah and Adam Never really existed, so why then does the Koran speaks of them?
The reason why the Koran speaks of them is because they existed...they were good man God Almighty has chosen as messengers.
Posts: 554 | From: Somaliland | Registered: Sep 2005
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U are right Judaism is the DAughter Christianity the granddaughter and Islam the great grand daughter of the ancient God Ra. Ausar im not trying to fight with u my Saeedi brother but i just felt that u were trying to soften up the abuse of the arabs to the Africans. Ya Habibi Ausar i know we are both saeediz u should know from being a southern egyptian that we are not the majority we use to be the majority but what happen habibi there is no other explaination but the genocide of the egyptians. U should me a picture of that egyptian girl yes but the whole country use to be filled with those beautiful people now all u see is the northerners & those who are mixed with Arab & african. Ausar Habibi can u please tell me for how long has egypt been speaking arabic and for how long have they been useing the Islamic calendar and why is Ethiopia the only country useing the ancient egyptian calendar that the Coptic Fellahin use still till this day that explains why Egypt is a Islamic country and not a Coptic country like it use to be. When the Muslims invaded they didnt come to Egypt to make it a better place they came there to convert all the people to Islam they pillaged the pyramids took all the limestone that use to be on it to make there own mosque so how can u say that these people in Egypt are all decendents of the ancient egyptians.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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This does not mean that the native Africans were displaced or "wiped out" as some people surmised, but that they were assimilated into the 'great' Arabic culture.
Posts: 26318 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by mike rozier: The symbol of the worship of the moon god in Arabian culture and elsewhere throughout the Middle East was the crescent moon.
Archaeologists have dug up numerous statues and hieroglyphic inscriptions in which a crescent moon was seated on top of the head of the deity to symbolize the worship of the moon god. In the same fashion as the sun is pictured above the Egyptian deity.
While the moon was generally worshiped as a female deity in the Ancient Near East, the Arabs viewed it as a male deity.
Mike is correct. Semitic speaking nomads including the ancestors of the Arabs originated the worship of a powerful moon deity whose name was usually called Sin. The cult of Sin was prominent in Babylonia but was widespread throughout Arabia where he was usally worshipped as the chief diety.
quote:Originally posted by Ceelgabo_11: If that is the case than how is that we muslims don't bow down to the moon or perform Pagan ritual in full moon...
Crescent moon is symbolizes the start of the month of Ramadan.
You may not like it, but even the great monotheistic religions such as Islam may have remnants of earlier pagan traditions.
I don't know too much about ancient Arabia or the Ramadan tradition, but such a month may well have some kind of pagan association.
quote:..
LOL Nice try Ceel, but the Christian cross has nothing to do with the Egyptian ankh.
The cross in Christianity represents Christ because that was how he died-- being nailed to a cross.
Which makes me wonder, if Jesus died another way like being hung, would Christians use a noose to represent Christ or an axe if he was beheaded?!!
Anway, the two main Christian holidays of the year-- Christmas and Easter are really European pagan holidays!
Christmas was originally a festival called the Saturni celebrated on December 25th-- the start of the winter solstace in commemoration of the Italian god Saturn. The special custom of that celebration was gift-giving. There were other similar European gods whose special holidays were on the winter solstace. The christmas tree itself was a symbol of the essence of life and was regarded as a phallic symbol in fertility worship.
The holiday of Easter descends from a spring festival to honor a fertility goddess named Easteria. Her symbols were the bunny and eggs which all represented fertility.
Posts: 26318 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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"If he is so respected, why can't he offer some respect Egypt's heritage? " He is respected by Sunni Muslims around the World. I don't think the sheikh would really issue fatwa to destroy the prymid and the statues, because thousands of Egyptians depend on the tourist that come to see the statues. I think the fatwa was against buying the statues for home decoration.
^^I hope that is really the case--that the fatwa was against owning the statues for decoration, because what that crazy lady did was wrong vandalising those ancient statues. Such antiquities are priceless! If it was up to me, I would have her imprisoned for years for such vandalism!
Posts: 26318 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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The History of The Patriarchs of Alexandria
And in those days Heraclius saw a dream in which it was said to him: "Verily there shall come against you a circumcised nation, and they shall vanquish you and take possession of the land." So Heraclius thought that they would be the Jews, and accordingly gave orders that all the Jews and Samaritans should be baptized in all the provinces which were under his dominion. But after a few days there appeared a man of the Arabs, from the southern districts, that is to say, from Mecca or its neighbourhood, whose name was Muhammad; and he brought back the worshippers of idols to the knowledge of the One God, and bade them declare that Muhammad was his apostle; and his nation were circumcised in the Hesh, not by the law, and prayed towards the South, turning towards a place which they called the Kaabah. And he took possession of Damascus and Syria, and crossed the Jordan, and dammed it up. And the Lord abandoned the army of the Romans before him, as a punishment for their corrupt faith, and because of the anathemas uttered against them, on account of the council of Chalcedon, by the ancient fathers.
When Heraclius saw this, he assembled all his troops from Egypt as far as the frontiers of Aswan. And he continued for three years to pay to the Muslims the taxes which he had demanded for the purpose of applying them to himself and all his troops; and they used to call the tax the bakt, that is to say that it was a sum levied at so much a head. And this went on until Heraclius had paid to the Muslims the greater part of his money; and many people died through the troubles which they had endured.
So when ten years were over of the rule of Heraclius together with the Colchian, who sought for the patriarch Benjamin, while he was fleeing from him from place to place, hiding himself in the fortified churches, the prince of the Muslims sent an army to Egypt, under one of his trusty companions, named Amr ibn Al-Asi, in the year 357 of Diocletian, the slayer of the martyrs. And this army of Islam came down into Egypt in great force, on the twelfth day of Baunah, which is the sixth of June, according to the months of the Romans.
Now the commander Amr had destroyed the fort, and burnt the boats with fire, and defeated the Romans, and taken possession of part of the country. For he had first arrived by the desert; and the horsemen took the road through the mountains, until they arrived at a fortress built of stone, between Upper Egypt and the Delta, called Babylon. So they pitched their tents there, until they were prepared to fight the Romans, and make war against them; and afterwards they named that place, I mean the fortress, in their language, Bablun Al-Fustat; and that is its name to the present day.
After fighting three battles with the Romans, the Muslims conquered them. So when the chief men of the city saw these things, they went to Amr, and received a certificate of security for the city, that it might not be plundered. This kind of treaty which Muhammad, the chief of the Arabs, taught them, they called the Law; and he says with regard to it: "As for the province of Egypt and any city that agrees with its inhabitants to pay the land-tax to you and to submit to your authority, make a treaty with them, and do them no injury. But plunder and take as prisoners those that will not consent to this and resist you." For this reason the Muslims kept their hands off the province and its inhabitants, but destroyed the nation of the Romans, and their general who was named Marianus. And those of the Romans who escaped fled to Alexandria, and shut its gates upon the Arabs, and fortified themselves within the city.
And in the year 360 of Diocletian, in the month of December, three years after Amr had taken possession of Memphis, the Muslims captured the city of Alexandria, and destroyed its walls, and burnt many churches with fire. And they burnt the church of Saint Mark, which was built by the sea, where his body was laid; and this was the place to which the father and patriarch, Peter the Martyr, went before his martyrdom, and blessed Saint Mark, and committed to him his reasonable flock, as he had received it. So they burnt this place and the monasteries around it....
When Amr took full possession of the city of Alexandria, and settled its affairs, that infidel, the governor of Alexandria, feared, he being both prefect and patriarch of the city under the Romans, that Amr would kill him; therefore he sucked a poisoned ring, and died on the spot. But Sanutius, the believing dux, made known to Amr the circumstances of that militant father, the patriarch Benjamin, and how he was a fugitive from the Romans, through fear of them. Then Amr, son of Al-Asi, wrote to the provinces of Egypt a letter, in which he said: "There is protection and security for the place where Benjamin, the patriarch of the Coptic Christians is, and peace from God; therefore let him come forth secure and tranquil, and administer the affairs of his Church, and the government of his nation." Therefore when the holy Benjamin heard this, he returned to Alexandria with great joy, clothed with the crown of patience and sore conflict which had befallen the orthodox people through their persecution by the heretics, after having been absent during thirteen years, ten of which were years of Heraclius, the misbelieving Roman, with the three years before the Muslims conquered Alexandria. When Benjamin appeared, the people and the whole city rejoiced, and made his arrival known to Sanutius, the dux who believed in Christ, who had settled with the commander Amr that the patriarch should return, and had received a safe-conduct from Amr for him. Thereupon Sanutius went to the commander and announced that the patriarch had arrived, and Amr gave orders that Benjamin should be brought before him with honour and veneration and love. And Amr, when he saw the patriarch, received him with respect, and said to his companions and private friends: "Verily in all the lands of which we have taken possession hitherto I have never seen a man of God like this man." For the Father Benjamin was beautiful of countenance, excellent in speech, discoursing with calmness and dignity.
Then Amr turned to him, and said to him: "Resume the government of all your churches and of your people, and administer their affairs. And if you will pray for me, that I may go to the West and to Pentapolis, and take possession of them, as I have of Egypt, and return to you in safety and speedily, I will do for you all that you shall ask of me." Then the holy Benjamin prayed for Amr, and pronounced an eloquent discourse, which made Amr and those present with him marvel, and which contained words of exhortation and much profit for those that heard him; and he revealed certain matters to Amr, and departed from his presence honoured and revered. And all that the blessed father said to the commander Amr, son of Al-Asi, he found true, and not a letter of it was unfulfilled.
Al-Baladhuri: The Conquest of Alexandria
'Amr kept his way until he arrived in Alexandria whose inhabitants he found ready to resist him, but the Copts in it preferred peace. Al-Mukaukis communicated with 'Amr and asked him for peace and a truce for a time; but 'Amr refused. Al-Mukaukis then ordered that the women stand on the wall with their faces turned towards the city, and that the men stand armed, with their faces towards the Moslems, thus hoping to scare them. 'Amr sent word, saying, "We see what you have done. It was not by mere numbers that we conquered those we have conquered. We have met your king Heraclius, and there befell him what has befallen him." Hearing this, al-Mukaukis said to his followers, "These people are telling the truth. They have chased our king from his kingdom as far as Constantinople. It is much more preferable, therefore, that we submit." His followers, however, spoke harshly to him and insisted on fighting. The Moslems fought fiercely against them and invested them for three months. At last, 'Amr reduced the city by the sword and plundered all that was in it, sparing its inhabitants of whom none was killed or taken captive. He reduced them to the position of dhimmis like the people of Alyunah. He communicated the news of the victory to 'Umar through Mu'awiyah ibn-Hudaij al-Kindi (later as-Sakuni) and sent with him the fifth.
The Greeks wrote to Constantine, son of Heraclius, who was their king at that time, telling him how few the Moslems in Alexandria were, and how humiliating the Greeks' condition was, and how they had to pay poll-tax. Constantine sent one of his men, called Manuwil, with three hundred ships full of fighters. Manuwil entered Alexandria and killed all the guard that was in it, with the exception of a few who by the use of subtle means took to flight and escaped. This took place in the year 25. Hearing the news, 'Amr set out at the head of 15,000 men and found the Greek fighters doing mischief in the Egyptian villages next to Alexandria. The Moslems met them and for one hour were subjected to a shower of arrows, during which they were covered by their shields. They then advanced boldly and the battle raged with great ferocity until the polytheists were routed; and nothing could divert or stop them before they reached Alexandria. Here they fortified themselves and set mangonels. 'Amr made a heavy assault, set the ballistae, and destroyed the walls of the city. He pressed the fight so hard until he entered the city by assault, killed the fathers and carried away the children as captives. Some of its Greek inhabitants left to join the Greeks somewhere else; and Allah's enemy, Manuwil, was killed. 'Amr and the Moslems destroyed the wall of Alexandria in pursuance of a vow that 'Amr had made to that effect, in case he reduced the city....'Amr ibn-al-Asi conquered Alexandria, and some Moslems took up their abode in it as a cavalry guard.
Posts: 554 | From: Somaliland | Registered: Sep 2005
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"If he is so respected, why can't he offer some respect Egypt's heritage? " He is respected by Sunni Muslims around the World. I don't think the sheikh would really issue fatwa to destroy the prymid and the statues, because thousands of Egyptians depend on the tourist that come to see the statues. I think the fatwa was against buying the statues for home decoration.
^^I hope that is really the case--that the fatwa was against owning the statues for decoration, because what that crazy lady did was wrong vandalising those ancient statues. Such antiquities are priceless! If it was up to me, I would have her imprisoned for years for such vandalism!
Its her country, her history, so if she destroys the antiquities she is destroying part of her history.
I think its up to Egyptians to decised whether to punish her or not, because she committed crime against them..not anyone else.
Posts: 554 | From: Somaliland | Registered: Sep 2005
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Its her country, her history, so if she destroys the antiquities she is destroying part of her history.
I think its up to Egyptians to decised whether to punish her or not, because she committed crime against them..not anyone else.
In that the Ancient Nile Valley nation state of Kemet had important impact on cultures outside its borders, both intra-African and extra-African, not to mention that it is a part of African history, she's doing much more than doing disservice to just contemporary Egyptians.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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Quote: The indigenous population of Egypt was never wiped out by Arabs nor any of the invaders of Egypt
Quote: you cannot compare the European invasion of North America to Arabs invading Egypt because the Arab invaders and people after them never wiped out the population
The Puritans never wipeout all of the Native Americans either, just most of them to the point where they are now a minority, so just like the Native Americans were enslaved so were the Indigenous Kemetian population in Kemet.
Historical Facts or Propaganda about slavery in Kemet you decide.
quote:Originally posted by Masonic Rebel: Quote: The indigenous population of Egypt was never wiped out by Arabs nor any of the invaders of Egypt
Quote: you cannot compare the European invasion of North America to Arabs invading Egypt because the Arab invaders and people after them never wiped out the population
The Puritans never wipeout all of the Native Americans either, just most of them to the point where they are now a minority, so just like the Native Americans were enslaved so were the Indigenous Kemetian population in Kemet.
Historical Facts or Propaganda about slavery in Kemet you decide.
I'm not debating about the so-called non-violence Arab invaders anymore.
Moving On
I would like to learn more about the Indigenous population who are still there in Kemet.
Did you read the piece I posted for you on how Islam came to Egypt and who ruled Egypt when arrived their or do still want to believe you own fairy tales on how great blacks race built every civilization known to mankind...
Its no secret Muslims owned slaves, but so did everyone before them and after them...even the Pharoes who you admire owned slaves mainly Africans from Nubia and other parts to south.If you think I'm fabricating this than take a look at the tombs of the Pharoes.
BTW, who are those people holding those Sudanics captive? Their complexions look unusually fair for Egyptians.
Posts: 7100 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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However, I must agree with the likes of Hore. (and you know how much I hate agreeing with that idiot! ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
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Nice try Ceel, but the Christian cross has nothing to do with the Egyptian ankh.
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