quote:Originally posted by sultan.org: I already have a teacher who had taught people 1400 yrs ago till this day.
Well, great! The prophet Muhammad did not advocate any form of female circumcision and there is no report of any of the females in his household being circumsized. So just go ahead and follow his example.
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We should built a statue in the shape of clitoris and award it to most passionate members about FGM on this message board.
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posted
This is intresting, I remember a few years ago when I read about the rites and rituals and came across, a sentence that women have to undergo circumcision, I asked my husband if this was correct, He told me It means only a tiny piece, but it is not a 'MUST'.I have girlfriends who aren't circumcised as their fathers refused to consent this operation being conducted on their children and they are doctors. I have other girlfriends who were circumcised and they are not happy in their intimate realtions with their husbands as they could not be satisfied.
posted
There is a big difference between removal of a clitoral hood, (which doesn't effect the size of it, it only uncovers the more sensitive nerve) and actually removing the clitoris which would take away a good portion of the most awesome sexual feelings.
Posts: 333 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
What the hell??? How the hell did my thread turn into a discussion of women ginitalia???? This is just sick and stupid!!!
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quote:Originally posted by sultan.org: You are not a gynecologist to understand all these complicated topics.
Are you a gynaecologist? Did I miss something? LOL.
Oh, and I'm sorry, I forgot that I only have a female brain. So of course I can't understand complex topics as easily as someone with a superior male brain, such as you, isn't that what you're saying?
posted
I’m angry that my thread was hijacked to serve a discussion about a different topic – of all to be female circumcision
I was hoping to get some advice here. I was looking for those who made the transition to give some insight on how it all came about. How were their thought process at the time? Did they have any pre-conceived prejudice in advance about the culture and how that changed?
Anyway, I knew that the relationship was doomed from the beginning. However, you don’t have this kind of connection with somebody very often. For example, when you mutually feel each other’s presence in a place when you have no idea that is the case … things like that. But that’s life anyway.
Now, some are asking how come I want the children to be Muslim while I don’t stick to the rules myself. She asked the same question of me. I do stick to the rules. For example, she gets furious each year when Ramadan comes and I stop seeing her during. But I understand that would be taken as hypocrisy. I don’t see it this way. Let me explain.
Islam to me was not something I was just born into it. I chose it. I spent three years of my life studying it (16-19). I wanted to make up my own mind. By the end of it, I became a sort of an expert in comparing religious beliefs between the three main monotheist religions. Not only did I study the text but the historical background of each mission. How the teachings related to the living conditions and beliefs of the time of the mission. I looked at them from a purely religious point of view (matter of belief), scholar point of view (matter of history and sociology) as well as philosophically (matter of human prescription of the universe).
I still remember the time that I just felt in absolute content to be a Muslim as I gained more and more knowledge. How I felt to be blessed to follow the steps of the prophet. That’s why there is no force upon earth that could turn me away from it. It’s not only a matter of belief, it makes sense to me.
Now, back to sticking to the rules thing. How many of Muslim scholars out there have studied the evolution of the Islamic message during the life of the prophet. How many Islamic clerics teach Muslims about the laws of “Nasikh wal Mansoukh” for example. Moreover, how many chose to ignore certain incidents and events cause they might lead to “FITNAH”.
Let me give you an example, “SIRAH EL HALABY”. The most comprehensive. It mentions the following incident. As the prophet returned from a “GHAZWAH”, he ordered the army to stay out of town for a night before going on. The story goes that some disobeyed and went in, only to “SEE WHAT THEY WOULD HAVE DISLIKED OF THEIR WOMEN”. Go read it. It’s there. They were human. He didn’t go in and prosecuted the women. On the contrary, he chose to stay out to avoid unnecessary conflict.
What I’m trying to say is that the prophet was not a fanatic. He was more human than any who walked the earth. He focused on what makes sense to the “Umma”. He warned of unnecessary debates and over complicating things. Just keep it simple stupid.
We can’t afford to be debating issues of Hijab and circumcision anymore. We should be debating issues like forms of government, rights of minorities, building an economic model (a comprehensive one not scams or half-assed attempts like the ones I read in college).
I guess you could consider me a liberal Muslim. That would be ok. Only that I believe that liberalism is the foundation of Islam. Islam was born in Arabia, a very liberal and pragmatic environment. In their harsh lands, the Bedouins just can’t afford to over-complicate life.
I could go on and on about this. I just wanted to give some hints into my thought process, why this relationship was such a dilemma for me and why I was angry to find the thread hijacked for the discussion of circumcision of all topics.
Note: I believe my anger should be directed toward Sultan as he/she started this whole thing.
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quote:Originally posted by katangah: I was hoping to get some advice here. I was looking for those who made the transition to give some insight on how it all came about. How were their thought process at the time? Did they have any preconceived prejudice in advance about the culture and how that changed?
If you really want to know about the thought processes to the transition to Islam, I can give you some idea about mine, but I am not sure how helpful it would be, as everybody who comes to Islam follows an individual path that is made up of so many different aspects, not only of their beliefs, but of their life experiences and circumstances. It's Allah who guides, people just act as helping hands along the way...or in some cases the opposite.
On my journey to Islam, I personally would avoid anyone who I thought would remotely try to persuade me to become a Muslim, and definitely those who looked "religious", but that was because I wasn't looking for a religion for myself, just for answers to questions that arose while I was living in a Muslim country. I was happy with my way of life and satisfied with my beliefs, and I certainly didn't want to change the way I lived.
The only people I would talk to about Islam were the non-practicing Muslims, i.e. the ones in the bars who weren't praying or adhering to anything other than avoiding pork and maybe fasting in Ramadan. They just answered my questions in a theoretical way, with a half-hearted rider about the possibility of me becoming a Muslim, but definitely no pressure. If there had been any pressure, I would have turned round and walked away and never looked back.
This part of my journey I think is perhaps one to take note of, as many westerners do not like to be pressured into anything, especially if they have not decided to go down a particular path themselves. We need to assimilate ideas and if we gradually get there by ourselves that's ok...it's then our choice.
If you let her lead the way in asking questions and don't try to persuade her, you might have more luck and won't find her so "stubborn". Take a lesson from the Seerah...did the Prophet (peace be upon him) try to make his uncle say his shahadah? No, he gave him the information and gave him space to make his own choice. This is where the verse comes in, that "There shall be no compulsion in the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in tāghūt and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing."
I feel that if she asks about Islam that you let her know the truth about Islam, as you understand it, then that is as much as you can do for her, the rest has to come from her.
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posted
the girl isnt stuborn her see katanga is a fool/ hypocrite.
Righteousness is good morality, and wrongdoing is that which wavers in your soul and which you dislike people finding out about. --Mohammed
the girl she feels what mohammed (peace be apon him) is in her hart. katanga is discovered. this truth he not be to like.
Posts: 7 | From: Egypt | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Ricochet: the girl isnt stuborn her see katanga is a fool/ hypocrite.
the girl she feels what mohammed (peace be apon him) is in her hart. katanga is discovered. this truth he not be to like.
I read those lines, say 83 times, and I still don't have a clue on what you're talking about!
Posts: 8756 | From: Tax-Free Zone | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: If shes 'stubborn' as you call it, then shes not ready!! You trying to force her will not make it happen.
I assume you are 'dating' a girl and YOU are muslim? then thats first thing you are failing in, not supposed to 'date' are you
I was lucky as I had no muslims to *cough* 'guide' me and did the research for myself. Your friend is not so lucky as she now has muslims (or at least one, you) trying to convert her by 'telling' her YOUR Islam while not showing Islam in your actions.
Ask her to read Quran, if she then has questions be very careful how you answer them and do not go to hadith to answer. Quran speaks very clearly for itself and as a new prospective Muslim hadith are confusing and are a MANS point of view, and in my opinion spoil many things in Muslims and go against the logic, love and overall message in Quran. Quran is enough for anyone new.
try to dispell the 'normal' view of God. I mean the one about the big guy with a beard sitting on a throne up there! Get her to think about the universe, how massively incomprehensibly BIG it is, then explain that He created ALL of that and everything in it, this will help her to start thinking just what IS God and how BIG we are talking here, although we humans will never comprehend it fully.
harun yahya site has a brilliant video free to download about Creation of the Universe, I found that great. There are many others on that site too and some great kids books. I say kids books because they are simple and she is like a child learning Islam, learn first the concept of GOD. When she finally is awed by God the rest will fall into place.
A good lecture/talk is by Khaled Yaseen called 'What is the purpose of life and what do you really know about Islam' you can find this on a few sites or I have it on disc and would be happy to send it you.
Above all, do NOT rush her, she has to take her own time. Pray for her to be guided.
Thank you. Appreciate it. Posts: 217 | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by katangah: I was hoping to get some advice here. I was looking for those who made the transition to give some insight on how it all came about. How were their thought process at the time? Did they have any preconceived prejudice in advance about the culture and how that changed?
If you really want to know about the thought processes to the transition to Islam, I can give you some idea about mine, but I am not sure how helpful it would be, as everybody who comes to Islam follows an individual path that is made up of so many different aspects, not only of their beliefs, but of their life experiences and circumstances. It's Allah who guides, people just act as helping hands along the way...or in some cases the opposite.
On my journey to Islam, I personally would avoid anyone who I thought would remotely try to persuade me to become a Muslim, and definitely those who looked "religious", but that was because I wasn't looking for a religion for myself, just for answers to questions that arose while I was living in a Muslim country. I was happy with my way of life and satisfied with my beliefs, and I certainly didn't want to change the way I lived.
The only people I would talk to about Islam were the non-practicing Muslims, i.e. the ones in the bars who weren't praying or adhering to anything other than avoiding pork and maybe fasting in Ramadan. They just answered my questions in a theoretical way, with a half-hearted rider about the possibility of me becoming a Muslim, but definitely no pressure. If there had been any pressure, I would have turned round and walked away and never looked back.
This part of my journey I think is perhaps one to take note of, as many westerners do not like to be pressured into anything, especially if they have not decided to go down a particular path themselves. We need to assimilate ideas and if we gradually get there by ourselves that's ok...it's then our choice.
If you let her lead the way in asking questions and don't try to persuade her, you might have more luck and won't find her so "stubborn". Take a lesson from the Seerah...did the Prophet (peace be upon him) try to make his uncle say his shahadah? No, he gave him the information and gave him space to make his own choice. This is where the verse comes in, that "There shall be no compulsion in the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in tāghūt and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing."
I feel that if she asks about Islam that you let her know the truth about Islam, as you understand it, then that is as much as you can do for her, the rest has to come from her.
Thank you, appreciate it. As I explained earlier, all I wanted is for the children to be Muslim. She accepts me as I'm with my religious side. She is not religious herself. She is just biased against the culture I guess. Anyway, appreciate your input.
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quote:Originally posted by FairyDust: There is a big difference between removal of a clitoral hood, (which doesn't effect the size of it, it only uncovers the more sensitive nerve) and actually removing the clitoris which would take away a good portion of the most awesome sexual feelings.
Most gynocologists and even more often "barbers" (barbers do most circumscions) while removing the clit hood actually do alot of damage to the clit.
Just removing the hood can do as much damage as taking out the entire clit.
No one will admit to this, but I have been told this by classmates where all his sisters has this procedure done. Nearly in tears trying to talk his wife out of doing this to their daughters. But tradition/Culture is more important than staying together, let alone the health of their daughters. Posts: 991 | From: My daughter is a stalker | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by FairyDust: There is a big difference between removal of a clitoral hood, (which doesn't effect the size of it, it only uncovers the more sensitive nerve) and actually removing the clitoris which would take away a good portion of the most awesome sexual feelings.
Most gynocologists and even more often "barbers" (barbers do most circumscions) while removing the clit hood actually do alot of damage to the clit.
Just removing the hood can do as much damage as taking out the entire clit.
No one will admit to this, but I have been told this by classmates where all his sisters has this procedure done. Nearly in tears trying to talk his wife out of doing this to their daughters. But tradition/Culture is more important than staying together, let alone the health of their daughters.
It's always the women who had been circumsized are the ones that insist as mothers to do it to their girls too. Not the fathers, it's only the mothers coz they can't imagine their daughters to be different... that's crazy
Posts: 484 | From: Egypt | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by FairyDust: There is a big difference between removal of a clitoral hood, (which doesn't effect the size of it, it only uncovers the more sensitive nerve) and actually removing the clitoris which would take away a good portion of the most awesome sexual feelings.
Most gynocologists and even more often "barbers" (barbers do most circumscions) while removing the clit hood actually do alot of damage to the clit.
Just removing the hood can do as much damage as taking out the entire clit.
No one will admit to this, but I have been told this by classmates where all his sisters has this procedure done. Nearly in tears trying to talk his wife out of doing this to their daughters. But tradition/Culture is more important than staying together, let alone the health of their daughters.
It's always the women who had been circumsized are the ones that insist as mothers to do it to their girls too. Not the fathers, it's only the mothers coz they can't imagine their daughters to be different... that's crazy
I know I have male classmates who are more than willing to discuss it. Trying to gather material to talk their wives out of it.
Somehow I being a woman who hasn't had it done and I am firmly against it says to these fathers/husbands that I might have a few discussion pointers they can use on their wives.
But I don't have any convincing arguments to change their wive's minds.
And yeah, its almost always the mother's insistance to have this done to their daughters. Its like "I can't enjoy life and neither should you."
Luckily my SILs both haven't had this done and are firmly against it. Then my MIL and FIL only had sons so its out of the reach of my MIL.
Besides my daughter will probably marry a westerner along with some of my nieces making the FGM issue moot for them.
Posts: 991 | From: My daughter is a stalker | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
Sorry if this comes a tad too late, I just read some of this thread. I have to say that I was offended by the way some people talk disrespectfully about hadith and sunnah. And trying to divorce hadith from Quran. I like to think of the issue in an objective logical manner.
How did Quran reach us in the first place? wasn't it through the prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him). If you say you believe that Quran is the word of god as revealed and has not been adulterated, i.e. you believe in its authenticity, then it follows that you believe in the integrity of that who conveyed it. Hence it follows that you'll believe that all his sayings and actions are righteous.
Again if you believe in everything in the Quran (which you must as a moslem), then you'll have to acknowledge what it says with respect to the prophet (pbuh). For example it says something to the effect that "what he brings you, take - and what he prohibits you from,leave" and "he does not speak of his whim but is inspired" and that "he is of great traits/morals/character/values". Again it follows that if that is what god attests to for the prophet in the Quran - that we believe is true - then he is not a man to give personal interpretations or spin.
Besides, if he wanted to put his personal views, he would've put in the Quran in the first place, after all, nobody would've known. If he wanted he could've claimed it's the word of god. I mean in pure common sense terms, why deliver something in the Quran then contradict it in the hadith, why just not put in the source, at least it will be unquestionable.
To me, it follows deductively that if you believe in the authenticiy of the Quran (how it was delivered) and in the truth of its content (what it contains) you will have to accept sunnah in general and not just hadith. To me they are inseparable, like to sides of a coin.
The issue becomes then whether what's attributed to the prophet is what he really said? There is a huge body of knowledge that addresses the authentication of hadith. I was EXTREMELY impressed when I came across it, that such a rigorous methodology was devised more than a thousand years ago!! In my view, there's very little (if any) that anybody nowadays can add to or remove from the authenticiy of the hadith.
Next then comes the issue of extracting guidance and legislations from the hadith. This in my view is the area where there's room for interpretaion and debate. This I believe falls in the realm of fiqh, which is a huge body of knowledge of its own that accomodates different interpretations and opinions. But it also puts conditions on how and who can make such derivations.
Disclaimer: this is my own opinion, do not take it as fact but rather seek more info. I have to put this disclaimer whenever I talk about religion.
Sorry for such a long post, but this is an important issue.
quote:Originally posted by Ramses nemesis: Sorry if this comes a tad too late, I just read some of this thread. I have to say that I was offended by the way some people talk disrespectfully about hadith and sunnah. And trying to divorce hadith from Quran. I like to think of the issue in an objective logical manner.
How did Quran reach us in the first place? wasn't it through the prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him). If you say you believe that Quran is the word of god as revealed and has not been adulterated, i.e. you believe in its authenticity, then it follows that you believe in the integrity of that who conveyed it. Hence it follows that you'll believe that all his sayings and actions are righteous.
Again if you believe in everything in the Quran (which you must as a moslem), then you'll have to acknowledge what it says with respect to the prophet (pbuh). For example it says something to the effect that "what he brings you, take - and what he prohibits you from,leave" and "he does not speak of his whim but is inspired" and that "he is of great traits/morals/character/values". Again it follows that if that is what god attests to for the prophet in the Quran - that we believe is true - then he is not a man to give personal interpretations or spin.
Besides, if he wanted to put his personal views, he would've put in the Quran in the first place, after all, nobody would've known. If he wanted he could've claimed it's the word of god. I mean in pure common sense terms, why deliver something in the Quran then contradict it in the hadith, why just not put in the source, at least it will be unquestionable.
To me, it follows deductively that if you believe in the authenticiy of the Quran (how it was delivered) and in the truth of its content (what it contains) you will have to accept sunnah in general and not just hadith. To me they are inseparable, like to sides of a coin.
The issue becomes then whether what's attributed to the prophet is what he really said? There is a huge body of knowledge that addresses the authentication of hadith. I was EXTREMELY impressed when I came across it, that such a rigorous methodology was devised more than a thousand years ago!! In my view, there's very little (if any) that anybody nowadays can add to or remove from the authenticiy of the hadith.
Next then comes the issue of extracting guidance and legislations from the hadith. This in my view is the area where there's room for interpretaion and debate. This I believe falls in the realm of fiqh, which is a huge body of knowledge of its own that accomodates different interpretations and opinions. But it also puts conditions on how and who can make such derivations.
Disclaimer: this is my own opinion, do not take it as fact but rather seek more info. I have to put this disclaimer whenever I talk about religion.
Sorry for such a long post, but this is an important issue.
Peace
So, ur basically disagreeing with my "liberal" view or this is about FGM?
Posts: 217 | Registered: Aug 2006
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So, ur basically disagreeing with my "liberal" view or this is about FGM?
I'm only discussing the relationship between Quran and sunnah, in general terms. I don't usually comment on personal issues. I'm not also aware of the views you're refering to. My stance is always that everybody is entitled to their own views. The only bit that I was critical of, is when people use disrespectful language. My apologies if you found anything in my post offensive (though I can't think of any).
And no, I was nost certainly not talking about FGM
quote:Originally posted by katangah: This is just sick and stupid!!!
Looks like specific inviduals can't get enough of running after each other in Religion forum.
Sick indeed
The ES saaaaa7 3ala ba3do w fata7 3al ba7ary pls enough of the FGM topic..... its not interesting anymore because it's a never ending debate & nobody gets to agree
Posts: 484 | From: Egypt | Registered: Jul 2006
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So, ur basically disagreeing with my "liberal" view or this is about FGM?
I'm only discussing the relationship between Quran and sunnah, in general terms. I don't usually comment on personal issues. I'm not also aware of the views you're refering to. My stance is always that everybody is entitled to their own views. The only bit that I was critical of, is when people use disrespectful language. My apologies if you found anything in my post offensive (though I can't think of any).
And no, I was nost certainly not talking about FGM
Peace
ure No worries, It's just that I wasn't sure of what you're referring to.
Posts: 217 | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
Well, while we're at it, I might as well add something about the authentication of hadith.
I have to say outright though, that I'm not an Islamic scholar neither professional nor amateur. The info below was in a book I read a few years ago, it wasn't even one of the famous books.
It basically said that when authenticating a hadith, you look at two things: the narration (who and how) known as the "sanad", and the wording known as the "matn"
Now when you consider the narration you first look at the number of narrators, say A,B,C narrated that U,V,W narrated that X,Y.Z said that the prophet (pbuh) sais so and so. Now you start grading them based on the number of narrators, obviously the more people narrate the hadith the stronger it is. Next you look at the narrators themselves, for example that there's overlap between them in time and space (e.g. W can not say that X told him,when X was dead before W was born!). You also look at their biographies of sort), who is known to be a righteous person, who's a liar, who's not a liar but persists on "minor disobediences" (al-sagha'er), etc. I understand this is known as "elmul-rejal" which can be loosely translated into the study of narrators.
The bit that I personally found most interesting is about how the relay of information itself took place. For example W can say, X told me (haddathany), or I heard X say (sam'itu), or X said (kal), or I was informed that X (balaghani), or I found out that X (alemtu), and many other variations. As you know the Arabic language is a very rich language with a lot of subtle differences in meaning that can render subtle differences in the strength of the hadith! All that and we haven't even touched on the "matn" yet!! which I'm sure also has it's rules.
So when you take all the perumtations and combinations of the above criteria you end up with a complex system of grading. Those are put in three broad categories by which a hadith can be: hassan, da'eef, or maw'doo.
The hassan would be the most authentic but as mentioned above would have several sub-categories within it.
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and there is no report of any of the females in his household being circumsized. So just go ahead and follow his example.
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