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Now if she was in the UK I would be worried about sex, drugs and alcohol. These are totally non issues here.

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Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Dalia*:

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Now if she was in the UK I would be worried about sex, drugs and alcohol. These are totally non issues here.

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But akshar, you're in Luxor! In Cairo sex, drugs and alcohol can be an issue.

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Posts: 2791 | From: www.flatsinluxor.co.uk, Luxor, Egypt | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by akshar:
I guess it depends on whether you think education is about doing well at school and having lots of pieces of paper and letters after your name or if it is about experience and learning through that experience.

I have been extremely successful as a business woman, entrepreneur and company owner but was useless at school, never went to university. that despite being a member of Mensa lol So I do not believe that formal education either guarantees or is necessary to successful life.

Take an example of the owner of Harrods and the most famous heart surgeon. These were both Egyptians that were educated in that system. So obviously you can be success going through that system.

If you think that only formal education can provide a future then you are going to be unhappy with what Egypt can provide but if you think that adversity, multi cultural experiences, alternative life styles and being bilingual can be equally of value in giving a child a great start in life then give Egypt a chance.

With my own daughter, in the UK she had learning difficulties and was demoralised and stigmatised in the educational system there. Although bright she performed appalling in educational tests and written work.

Moving her to Egypt was brilliant because however bad she was she was always far superior to everyone else in English. This gave her confidence and although she is not academic and at the top of her class. She is in a normal class and passing the end of year exams.

I must admit I was very nervous about what she would do about higher education but that has resolved itself as she has got interested in animal welfare and we have found a correspondence course with a UK college. So she will get a British college education living here in Egypt. This qualification is recognised all over the world so by the time she is 18 she can do anything she wants. Add to that she is bilingual.

Now if she was in the UK I would be worried about sex, drugs and alcohol. These are totally non issues here. There are no drugs at the schools gates, no alcopops, and no boyfriends. She is at a difficult age and to admit her mum might be right about anything is impossible but she gets shocked about some of the teenagers that stay with us and their lifestyle. I remember when this 12 year old was asking her to get cigarettes and describing her experiences of cyber sex.

Right at the moment she is running ACE, Animal Care in Egypt, yes running it!!!! The practise manager has gone to the UK for a week as her daughter is getting married and she has put my daughter in charge. She is responsible for opening up, making sure the events in the diary happen, feeding the animals and giving tourist escorted tours. She is learning how to give injections, bandage animals and studying her correspondence course. Never in a million years would this have happened to her in the UK. This all came about because she was bilingual.

Last summer she got the opportunity to be a marketing assistant at an international conference held here in Luxor, again this arose because she is bilingual. Can you imagine how her CV reads at 15. Could I have bettered her opportunities by formal schooling. Would she have been able to do either of these things in the UK.

So my favourite expression, think out of the box. It could be the most wonderful thing to happen to your child.

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Posts: 102 | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by chiselmonkey:

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Originally posted by akshar:
I guess it depends on whether you think education is about doing well at school and having lots of pieces of paper and letters after your name or if it is about experience and learning through that experience.

I have been extremely successful as a business woman, entrepreneur and company owner but was useless at school, never went to university. that despite being a member of Mensa lol So I do not believe that formal education either guarantees or is necessary to successful life.

Take an example of the owner of Harrods and the most famous heart surgeon. These were both Egyptians that were educated in that system. So obviously you can be success going through that system.

If you think that only formal education can provide a future then you are going to be unhappy with what Egypt can provide but if you think that adversity, multi cultural experiences, alternative life styles and being bilingual can be equally of value in giving a child a great start in life then give Egypt a chance.

With my own daughter, in the UK she had learning difficulties and was demoralised and stigmatised in the educational system there. Although bright she performed appalling in educational tests and written work.

Moving her to Egypt was brilliant because however bad she was she was always far superior to everyone else in English. This gave her confidence and although she is not academic and at the top of her class. She is in a normal class and passing the end of year exams.

I must admit I was very nervous about what she would do about higher education but that has resolved itself as she has got interested in animal welfare and we have found a correspondence course with a UK college. So she will get a British college education living here in Egypt. This qualification is recognised all over the world so by the time she is 18 she can do anything she wants. Add to that she is bilingual.

Now if she was in the UK I would be worried about sex, drugs and alcohol. These are totally non issues here. There are no drugs at the schools gates, no alcopops, and no boyfriends. She is at a difficult age and to admit her mum might be right about anything is impossible but she gets shocked about some of the teenagers that stay with us and their lifestyle. I remember when this 12 year old was asking her to get cigarettes and describing her experiences of cyber sex.

Right at the moment she is running ACE, Animal Care in Egypt, yes running it!!!! The practise manager has gone to the UK for a week as her daughter is getting married and she has put my daughter in charge. She is responsible for opening up, making sure the events in the diary happen, feeding the animals and giving tourist escorted tours. She is learning how to give injections, bandage animals and studying her correspondence course. Never in a million years would this have happened to her in the UK. This all came about because she was bilingual.

Last summer she got the opportunity to be a marketing assistant at an international conference held here in Luxor, again this arose because she is bilingual. Can you imagine how her CV reads at 15. Could I have bettered her opportunities by formal schooling. Would she have been able to do either of these things in the UK.

So my favourite expression, think out of the box. It could be the most wonderful thing to happen to your child.

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Yacoub had the most basic training in Egypt. He went to Uk to qualify as surgeon and trained in Denmark Sweden and USA.
Fayed was a multimillionaire who could buy what he wanted.
Why did your daughter choose a British course over an Egyptian one?
Are British teenagers not able to study languages, or get a job experience?

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Posts: 2791 | From: www.flatsinluxor.co.uk, Luxor, Egypt | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by TMK:
Twoworlds,

I'm an expat raising two children in Cairo. If I had an opportunity to go back to the states now, I would decline because I'd rather raise my children here. Yes the international schools have high fees, but I feel they are receiving a better education than in the states. Smaller class size, a modern well equipped school, classes in religion, an additinal lanquage, plus the life experience of living in Egypt. 95% of their schools senior class goes onto college.

I feel the parents are more invovled, and the Egyptian culture takes schooling very seriously. The majority of mothers don't work, so they have time to attend school functions and are involved in their children's life.

In general I feel much safer here, but admit I enjoy living outside of Cairo. The traffic and pollution can be overwhelming.

In the future we will have to deal with drinking and drug issues, not so much in the school but in the social clubs. I know that they do exsist, but not at the alarming rate as some American towns.

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Posts: 2791 | From: www.flatsinluxor.co.uk, Luxor, Egypt | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by ?????:
Quality education in Egypt is very expensive. Your son is only 3 yrs. old, so I don`t expect problems with leaving old friends, and get used to e new culture and make friends there. Also alcohol, drugs and other problems are not in question, your child hasn`t that age.
You`re talking about spending "some time" in Egypt? Can you be more specific in this?
I know by expierence that moving from one country to another can be very difficult for a child, at the age of 3 it wouldn`t give problems, but what if he has to get back?
Leaving friends, house, and everything that he is used to, including the school-system( certainty`s ) in his life can give problems, it depends by the child itselve.
About the rate`s of education: Britisch school indeed is very good, all the other international schools can give problems when you go to another country as where the school was from,Egyptian schools are on a very low rate.
Education only is not a guarantee for succes, however it offers a much higher chance of getting a good life. The ones without education and claim to be extremely succesfull, of course they exist. But they are still the exception. Being succesfull is a characteristic, some are succesfull everywhere.
But it`s not in common...

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Posts: 48 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by akshar:

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Originally posted by TMK:
Twoworlds,

I'm an expat raising two children in Cairo. If I had an opportunity to go back to the states now, I would decline because I'd rather raise my children here. Yes the international schools have high fees, but I feel they are receiving a better education than in the states. Smaller class size, a modern well equipped school, classes in religion, an additinal lanquage, plus the life experience of living in Egypt. 95% of their schools senior class goes onto college.

I feel the parents are more invovled, and the Egyptian culture takes schooling very seriously. The majority of mothers don't work, so they have time to attend school functions and are involved in their children's life.

In general I feel much safer here, but admit I enjoy living outside of Cairo. The traffic and pollution can be overwhelming.

In the future we will have to deal with drinking and drug issues, not so much in the school but in the social clubs. I know that they do exsist, but not at the alarming rate as some American towns.

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There are not so many school massacres in Egypt either

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unless you count the way the egyptian school system systematically massacres the soul by forcing the child to conform to the exact cookie cutter cutout of every other conformist child

Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Twoworlds:
Hi ????

I just wanted to hear the opinions from people who have been expose two both counties for "some time" in their lives. That is what I mean. Eihter if they live or had been in Egypt and US for some period of time.

Thanks all for your input.

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Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Tigerlily:
Twoworlds, best advise I can give you go and see for youself. Stay for couple of weeks in Cairo and try life out.

It will pretty much depend on your finances how comfortable your lifestyle will be, where you will live, which kindergarten/school your son will attend, which sportsclub you are going to join, where is going to be your favourite grocery store etc.

Many Americans live in the area of Maadi.

You might want to get in contact also with the CSA

http://www.livinginegypt.org/

Talk to more people who live in Cairo, listen to their positive and not so positive stories, ask many many questions and as mentioned above - experience it by yourself before you make any decision.

Good luck.

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Posts: 48 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by ?????:

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Originally posted by Twoworlds:
Hi ????

I just wanted to hear the opinions from people who have been expose two both counties for "some time" in their lives. That is what I mean. Eihter if they live or had been in Egypt and US for some period of time.

Thanks all for your input.

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I only can tell about something like it: Cairo/Europe.For some children it is very hard to leave all what they have in life behind, their homes, their friends, the way of living.
All people I know who have expierence in this are telling the same: One schoolsystem in one country.So if you are planned to take him to Cairo, he must finish his whole education there.
In all other cases the child gets more or less adaptation problems.

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Posts: 1808 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by doodlebug:
It's a constant struggle and if they were in Egypt it would be a non-issue since I didn't see any "name brand" issues when I was there.

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Posts: 1039 | From: Cairo | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by TMK:
Twoworlds,

I'm an expat raising two children in Cairo. If I had an opportunity to go back to the states now, I would decline because I'd rather raise my children here. Yes the international schools have high fees, but I feel they are receiving a better education than in the states. Smaller class size, a modern well equipped school, classes in religion, an additinal lanquage, plus the life experience of living in Egypt. 95% of their schools senior class goes onto college.

I feel the parents are more invovled, and the Egyptian culture takes schooling very seriously. The majority of mothers don't work, so they have time to attend school functions and are involved in their children's life.

In general I feel much safer here, but admit I enjoy living outside of Cairo. The traffic and pollution can be overwhelming.

In the future we will have to deal with drinking and drug issues, not so much in the school but in the social clubs. I know that they do exsist, but not at the alarming rate as some American towns.

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Posts: 2791 | From: www.flatsinluxor.co.uk, Luxor, Egypt | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by citizen:
On education where do you begin in Egypt?

Akshar, I have to say I admire your Candide like philosophy of 'all is best in the best of all possible worlds' but it is far removed from reality.

The fact that you did well without an eduction is because you grew up in a country where that is possible. Not many countries can have prime ministers who left school at the age of 16, or ministers who started life as postmen. Egypt certainly doesn't. You need your certificates (worthless as they may be) to get anywhere, and/or you need money. Your money has enabled you to be a success in Egypt. If you had relied on your husband's income where would you be? Be a little grateful to the country that enabled you, as a woman (uneducated), to make a success of herself, be independent, and pursue her dreams in another country where her money was worth so much more.

Your daughter has the advantage of your wealth. Getting a qualification in animal welfare is great but not much use in Egypt, so she will have to work elsewhere if she wants to pursue that career. Even vets here are looked down upon as failed doctors, they're the butt of many jokes. Hopefully she will be able to work in your business. It sounds like she has the advantage of an outgoing personality, which is wonderful.

But please don't scoff at a good education. It's the only real tool to prosperity we can give our children. Money can so easily slip through hands and be lost forever. We can't guarantee their success or prosperity but we can give them the best tools we can afford. Of course Egypt has produced some geniuses, but they have mostly had to leave the country for that genius to flourish. I often look at the illiterates of Egypt and wonder about the wasted intelligence that could have benefited the country and even the world. Somebody like Steven Hawking would be sitting in a wheelchair begging at traffic lights if he were in Egypt.

In your corner of Luxor there may be no sex, drugs or alcohol but there are plenty in Cairo and other big cities.

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Bravo citizen!

Posts: 95 | From: New York, New York, so good you have to say it twice! | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by akshar:

quote:

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Originally posted by TMK:
Twoworlds,

I'm an expat raising two children in Cairo. If I had an opportunity to go back to the states now, I would decline because I'd rather raise my children here. Yes the international schools have high fees, but I feel they are receiving a better education than in the states. Smaller class size, a modern well equipped school, classes in religion, an additinal lanquage, plus the life experience of living in Egypt. 95% of their schools senior class goes onto college.

I feel the parents are more invovled, and the Egyptian culture takes schooling very seriously. The majority of mothers don't work, so they have time to attend school functions and are involved in their children's life.

In general I feel much safer here, but admit I enjoy living outside of Cairo. The traffic and pollution can be overwhelming.

In the future we will have to deal with drinking and drug issues, not so much in the school but in the social clubs. I know that they do exsist, but not at the alarming rate as some American towns.

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Citizen we were asked for our experiences I gave mine and TMK gave hers, see above, everyone else is saying what they think not what they have experienced.

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Posts: 1039 | From: Cairo | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by ?????:
Akshar, I`m starting to get a bit tired of your selective way to value the different opinions, you simply hear what you want to hear and all the rest is erased as NOT EXPIERENCED.
And YES, I am talking by expierence, I even tell about expierences from people I also know, because it is quite an issue.
I am glad your life is a succes, and I hope you will be also that succesfull in the States, but please, appreciate the contributions of the ones who have other expierences also...even if they are different...

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ditto

Posts: 102 | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by *Souri*:

Also there is a different between being fluent and being bilingual. Usually multinational companies prefer to take people who are bilingual rather than someone who is fluent as a customer no matter where he comes from, often prefer to communicate with someone from his own culture, which can avoid many misunderstanding when dealing with critical issues. So yes I would say that being bilingual in Egypt is a huge advantage if you want to find a job.

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Originally posted by *Souri*:
I also believe that school of life is not enough, especially for a specific job, in my country is also almost impossible to find a decent job with no qualification, as even if the person is bilingual and use her or he languages skills, he or she will always encounter some issues because, such as difference of wages, and difficulties of evolution inside the company. And that what is happening in the company I work for, for people with no qualifications they can easily find a job yes, only because of their languages skills, and under certain conditions which are less money, and difficulties to move on.

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that is true, add to that if you are a women you have the glass ceiling. Depending on what career you want to go into you need qualifications. I would not want a doctor operating on me that had only been to the school of life but there are many areas of work when no matter your qualifications you will not do well and where experience is more important than paper qualifications.

If you want to work in the UK for example your CV has to sell you and whilst they might check job references I have never ever heard of any one being asked for proof of their qualifications. Indeed you may have read stories of people being exposed as frauds because of this.

So you have to access both your abilities and your career path when deciding if further education will benefit you.

BTW those people who don't like my opinions are entitled to ignore them. But my experience is my experience.

Posts: 2791 | From: www.flatsinluxor.co.uk, Luxor, Egypt | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Broadzilla:
American here. Moved to Egypt about 2 years ago. I have a 6 year old.

The educational system is horrendous. National, international. The corruption in the business of education here is rampant. Be prepared to supplement your child's education yourself if you want him/her to grow up using an ounce of critical thinking. Like it was mentioned here before, its a lot of copy and paste going on here and its pretty embarrassing.

Good luck. I'm getting my kid out of here ASAP.

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Posts: 48 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Broadzilla:
I don't have my finger on the pulse of all of the schools, mind you but you need to be aware of something fundemental that's systemic.

The foundation of business here is corrupt. I don't work for them directly, but I'm closely involved with some CITA (an organization that approves and certifies schools for the American diploma program) and the whole process has been corrupted. Bribery is a way of life, cutting corners is just standard operation here. And when 'quality control' can be bought off, easily, theres little you can do to safeguard your kids education. I don't care how much money you're paying. Schools like Choueifat etc..the quality crumbles after 2 years tops.

The investors of these businesses are interested in seeing immediate profits. They make everything look nice and pretty to gain CITA approval, and then they cut the foreign teachers loose to avoid having to pay their salaries. So within a short period of time, they've got 'lower quality' teachers pushing the American curriculum, but considering the unfortunate tendency of most Egyptian teachers using "memorization/copy & paste" methods, atop the fact that they're underpaid and overworked, mixed in with the fact that everybody knows it doesnt matter in the end because people pay under the table for their kids grades when they still can barely put together an English paragraph---why bother?

Are they all like that? I hope not. I've yet to review one that doesnt operate under those circumstances. Anybody else, feel free to post any schools that don't.

Personally, I'm seriously considering putting my child in a German school. From my observations, they're a hell of a lot more strict about quality control. Good ol Germans. I'm interested in structure, interested in having my daughters mind challenged. She'll naturally get English from me. And that's basically all these schools are pushing anyway. English. Not education, ENGLISH.

Sure, there are tons of kids in the States who graduate highschool and don't know how to read. But you know what, they don't show up half the time, and their parents arent paying thousands of dollars a year for it either. So in comparison in my opinion, its not even close.

Take special care no matter where you send your child. But regardless, be prepared to supplement your child's education if you want him/her to be competitive and be able to function in the international world. Paper is nice, but your kids gotta put the money where the paper is come time for college.

Good luck.

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Posts: 2049 | From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Broadzilla:
My frustration here stems from my findings as an Administrator in the international and national fields of education. I promise you, there are enough problems to list without having to embellish because I'm mad Egypt's lame. Trust.

I do know some folks who worked with AIS though, I'm meeting with one tomorrow. I'll get back to you about her opinion ASAP.

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Posts: 2049 | From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Broadzilla:
My frustration here stems from my findings as an Administrator in the international and national fields of education. I promise you, there are enough problems to list without having to embellish because I'm mad Egypt's lame. Trust.

I do know some folks who worked with AIS though, I'm meeting with one tomorrow. I'll get back to you about her opinion ASAP.

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Posts: 48 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged |