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I placed this post on the Egyptian News section, in the demonstration topic. Nevertheless I think it is usefull to make a new topic about it. Suppose, you have a double nationality, and your wife and children also have. Like so many immigrants are having this. Suppose your wife and children are living in Egypt. They often should like to live with their husbands. And the situation in Egypt is concerning...Some kinds of food are more expensive in Egypt as they are in Europe. Not even considering the ridiculous prices they have to pay for education on western level, which is 8 times as expensive as in Europe, how about safety and economical benefits right now? The country is getting more unstabile by the day, there is social unrest, the prices are raising above European level, so why do they keep their families there?
Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ?????: I placed this post on the Egyptian News section, in the demonstration topic. Nevertheless I think it is usefull to make a new topic about it. Suppose, you have a double nationality, and your wife and children also have. Like so many immigrants are having this. Suppose your wife and children are living in Egypt. They often should like to live with their husbands. And the situation in Egypt is concerning...Some kinds of food are more expensive in Egypt as they are in Europe. Not even considering the ridiculous prices they have to pay for education on western level, which is 8 times as expensive as in Europe, how about safety and economical benefits right now? The country is getting more unstabile by the day, there is social unrest, the prices are raising above European level, so why do they keep their families there?
I made this decision several years ago and day by day I know I have made the right decision. What is there in Egypt? What is a good reason to live there? The world is beautiful and many muslim nations offer much more than Egypt in:
Education Infrastructure Environment Interaction Politics Rights Transportation Shopping Outings
Why would I want to live in a nation merely because it is cheap? Now why would i subject my wife and future family in a nation that is clearly defunct.
Having wrote what i just did, Egypt is still better off than living in many other nations, including European ones, but this isn't about other countries it is about Egypt.
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But suppose you have daughters? Daughters often are, or are used as, a reason to decide to raise them in Egypt. Would that make any difference?
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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Many Egyptians have the finances to return back to live in their homeland and living quite a comfortable life there. They miss their country too much and often never really adapted to life in a Western country. These people will not suffer back in Egypt; it's the people who don't have money.
Despite all the hardships so many Egyptians are facing - they still proud of their country and heritage which is understandable.
Having lived as an expat in Cairo before I'd love to return back for a couple of more years if possible. But I could not imagine to grow old in Egypt.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: Many Egyptians have the finances to return back to live in their homeland and living quite a comfortable life there. They miss their country too much and often never really adapted to life in a Western country. These people will not suffer back in Egypt; it's the people who don't have money.
Despite all the hardships so many Egyptians are facing - they still proud of their country and heritage which is understandable.
Having lived as an expat in Cairo before I'd love to return back for a couple of more years if possible. But I could not imagine to grow old in Egypt.
You're missing the point. It is not about the ones who are living as a family, but about the ones who are living separated from wife and children. Often these wifes and children are having a double nationality,the children have been born abroad and after a few years they are sending them to Egypt again. They are using the excuse that Egypt is safer, cheaper, and a better enviroment to raise daughters. Right now it isn't this way anymore. It certainly isn't cheaper, you can place questionmarks by safety because the situation is not looking forward as safe. There is social unrest and it only can become worser. I felt it, and I hear it every day. And of course this is a personal opinion, but in my expierence it is certainly not better for a girl to raise up there, without a father, forced to stay at home and go to school with an exceptional visit to a cinema of a friend. So, all the excuses that these 'fathers' once might have had, I think it is quite the opposite right now. I think it is stupid to let them stay in Egypt in the current situation. Especially when they are free to travel and can unite with their father and husband whenever they like.... It is more expensive, it is more unsafe and it does not bring one extra to their futures...
Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ?????: But suppose you have daughters? Daughters often are, or are used as, a reason to decide to raise them in Egypt. Would that make any difference?
To get to the point I won’t even entertain the idea of raising a family in Egypt. Allah ye3lim though and so I do not know what the future holds. I do know that I expect a responsible government, critical thinking education and an environmentally responsible nation to have children. This eliminates Egypt and speaking of sexual harassment well that just one additional reason that eliminated Egypt. I am speaking about myself, and my situation differs from other people as I have the option to live as I please and because i am not restrained by deep ties to Egypt. Other people have a different mentality though because usually it is either the western nation they live in or their native country. I mean Egyptians have ties and so they will overlook many negative aspects in their native country and even try to live their lives around them.
What good is the infrastructure and beauty of London if you are not happy there?
Posts: 2418 | Registered: Nov 2007
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So, you think it is the way they look to the country where they earn their money. The norms and values are not theirs, they don't appreciate them, but the social and financial circumstances are better. The stupid thing is, they also feel not at home in their own country anymore. The strict cultural and social behaviours as most important negative aspect. From one side they think their new country is to free and to liberal, a bit depraved, but on the other side they are not able to live in a country that is the opposite... The way I see it, is that they enjoy all the freedom and benefits a western country can possible give them, and I mean ALL : the financial possibilities, the social security, often they use and abuse the laws in this, the freedom, the lack of social controll, ALL, but....only for themselves. Not for the female part of the families. If the women should behave as the men are doing they were ready for slaughtering... So, the girls are getting a very strict childhood, with a lot of restrictions, while the men are enjoying everything they can... They keep them relatively safe in Egypt, relatively cheap in Egypt, but this motives are not valid anymore!!!! I think, in fact, it's a bit criminal...or at least selfish!
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ?????: So, you think it is the way they look to the country where they earn their money. The norms and values are not theirs, they don't appreciate them, but the social and financial circumstances are better. The stupid thing is, they also feel not at home in their own country anymore. The strict cultural and social behaviours as most important negative aspect. From one side they think their new country is to free and to liberal, a bit depraved, but on the other side they are not able to live in a country that is the opposite... The way I see it, is that they enjoy all the freedom and benefits a western country can possible give them, and I mean ALL : the financial possibilities, the social security, often they use and abuse the laws in this, the freedom, the lack of social controll, ALL, but....only for themselves. Not for the female part of the families. If the women should behave as the men are doing they were ready for slaughtering... So, the girls are getting a very strict childhood, with a lot of restrictions, while the men are enjoying everything they can... They keep them relatively safe in Egypt, relatively cheap in Egypt, but this motives are not valid anymore!!!! I think, in fact, it's a bit criminal...or at least selfish!
To put it mildly some Muslims think that people in the west live just like animals. I actually heard this comparison today. The mentality is just different and yes they make their money in the west but they simply do not want their children growing up in societies they deem lewd. They are not stupid and many actually have plans, some gradually bring their families back over the summer. Some literally bribe their own families by buying a ‘villa’ for them and enrolling them in American schools. It is very complicated and the children are not the only ones affected as the mothers are the ones who change the most. They begin to enjoy their independence and wealth in the west but when they return to their native country all their friends and family have been stagnant and as a result this becomes a huge headache e.g friends and family asking for handouts, people talking about why the woman doesn’t cover or why she allows her girls to wear sleeveless shirts, etc, etc
This is what happens in some cases. The father who has the means simply does not give a damn and will say ‘I will pay any price’ to bring my children back to my culture and Islam. Someone told me straight up ‘ what use is this wealth if my own children don’t respect me or if my daughter runs off with someone(a kaffir)”
Try to understand how people think as opposed to criticizing sans understanding. These people love their children and families and deep down they truly believe they are doing what is best for them.
Posts: 2418 | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by ?????: So, you think it is the way they look to the country where they earn their money. The norms and values are not theirs, they don't appreciate them, but the social and financial circumstances are better. The stupid thing is, they also feel not at home in their own country anymore. The strict cultural and social behaviours as most important negative aspect. From one side they think their new country is to free and to liberal, a bit depraved, but on the other side they are not able to live in a country that is the opposite... The way I see it, is that they enjoy all the freedom and benefits a western country can possible give them, and I mean ALL : the financial possibilities, the social security, often they use and abuse the laws in this, the freedom, the lack of social controll, ALL, but....only for themselves. Not for the female part of the families. If the women should behave as the men are doing they were ready for slaughtering... So, the girls are getting a very strict childhood, with a lot of restrictions, while the men are enjoying everything they can... They keep them relatively safe in Egypt, relatively cheap in Egypt, but this motives are not valid anymore!!!! I think, in fact, it's a bit criminal...or at least selfish!
To put it mildly some Muslims think that people in the west live just like animals. I actually heard this comparison today. The mentality is just different and yes they make their money in the west but they simply do not want their children growing up in societies they deem lewd. They are not stupid and many actually have plans, some gradually bring their families back over the summer. Some literally bribe their own families by buying a ‘villa’ for them and enrolling them in American schools. It is very complicated and the children are not the only ones affected as the mothers are the ones who change the most. They begin to enjoy their independence and wealth in the west but when they return to their native country all their friends and family have been stagnant and as a result this becomes a huge headache e.g friends and family asking for handouts, people talking about why the woman doesn’t cover or why she allows her girls to wear sleeveless shirts, etc, etc
This is what happens in some cases. The father who has the means simply does not give a damn and will say ‘I will pay any price’ to bring my children back to my culture and Islam. Someone told me straight up ‘ what use is this wealth if my own children don’t respect me or if my daughter runs off with someone”
Try to understand how people think as opposed to criticizing sans understanding. These people love their children and families and deep down they truly believe they are doing what is best for them.
that is correct. But education is sooo much better here in the west. its just the culture, its way different. Look at me, i am rich but i am miserable.
Posts: 506 | From: Some where on the east coast | Registered: Jan 2008
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I can understand the opinion about the culture, and in some way people indeed behave like animals. When you take events as mardi grass and spring holidays in daytona beach as an example for western behaviour, then it is indeed bad. At the same time this is the price we pay for freedom. We are free untill a certain limit, and if people feel the need to vent this way, they are free to do so. Mass of people shouldn't consider it as normal behaviour, but for the ones who like to do, the possibility is there. As long as they don't harm another in their behaviour it is allowed...
So, I can understand. What I can't understand is the embracing and using of this habits when the possibility arises. When there is a situation that a woman, who behaves badly, should be open to get involved with them, they take every oppurtunity. (Moreover they do the same in Egypt) They condemn a woman, but at the same time they use each and every occasion, even start relationships with them. Married or not married, father or not a father, that doesn't make any difference. They shouldn't like their female relatives to be that way, they would do everything what's needed to avoid that, but often there are one of more examples walking side by side as a girlfriend.
I can understand that a wife becomes superfluous ballast when you are living in such enviroments, with such friends, with such girlfriends. Because every wife should indicate him on the contradictory in its behaviour and not accept it. So, transportation to Egypt is a solution. I can even believe they care for their families. But right now, I think the situation has changed.
The wifes are afraid and worried by the current situation in Egypt. But they are not free to go, because their husbands don't like to welcome them. Above that, Egyptian gouvernment is not very open in their news press coverage, most of the news doesn't even reach the west.
So, there they are. Locked into an unstabile country, with rising prices, in an unsafe enviroment to raise their daughters. Some have teenage daughters, some have little children, some have baby's or are pregnant. I shouldn't like to step into their shoes...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ?????: What I can't understand is the embracing and using of this habits when the possibility arises. When there is a situation that a woman, who behaves badly, should be open to get involved with them, they take every oppurtunity.
From another thread:
quote:Originally posted by ?????: In the Living in Egypt-section I just placed a topic about the rattle-snake-holes immigrants usually get involved with, because there simply is no other option, and about how it changes people in personalities that we usually like to avoid. Not because they like to change into this, but simply because situation and circumstances made them this way.
?????, I'm trying to understand your perspective. Are you saying that Egyptian men have no choice but to get involved with women outside of their marriage? And are you laying blame on the women they get involved with? I'm asking for clarification and, certainly, if I misunderstood I owe you a public apology.
Posts: 758 | From: Here. There. Everywhere. | Registered: Mar 2008
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No. I'm trying to figure out why all those double standards are used on females.
The men want their wifes and daughters to behave in a good way, and they think this only can be reached by raising them in Egypt. Their wifes and daughters are having a double nationality, just like the men, so they can live in both countries. They are sending them back to Egypt because of the raising up, the costs, and the safety. These motives are not current anymore. Besides that, the standards that they demand for their female relatives, doesn't seem to apply on them.
Because the women they describe as bad, the ones that they take as a negative example to justify the fact that they've sended their wife and daughters away, is used by the same men "just for fun". Majority of these men I've seen all had one or more of these 'bad examples' as a girlfriend.
They live and enjoy all the freedom of the west, limit the lifes of the female relatives, under the excuse that they want them to behave decent.
I hope you understand what I mean...
NB: The rattle-snake-holes is the enviroment where the men used to be in: by work, by housing, by free time.
Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ?????: Their wifes and daughters are having a double nationality, just like the men, so they can live in both countries.
Right. That means they can stay or go. If wives or daughters don't want to leave, why don't they assert their rights and stay? This is the part I don't understand.
Posts: 758 | From: Here. There. Everywhere. | Registered: Mar 2008
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They want to leave... the fathers don't like to welcome them back in the West, so they stay... They don't like them to welcome them back because of the motives I already described. And that motives are not for real anymore!!! Tell me, what benefits could a single woman and daughters have by living in Egypt right now??? The costs??? It's more expensive as Europe. The decency??? Decency is gone. People are stealing and try to survive. Single mothers and virgin daughters are a prey... The safety??? It isn't safe at all. Not anymore. Not now...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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sorry to say egypt education is 10times more expensive,no more safe for girl, female , unless you keep them lock
Posts: 38 | From: usa | Registered: Apr 2008
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I think what ????? means is with the income level of Egypt (most of it) and rising costs of prices of food, living, electricty, etc., it almost doesn't make sense for the women to even be here. Heck, our water bill increased over 500% in one month, and we weren't using more water. BUT the issue is that the men think (not sure I totally agree) that by sending the girls away to be raised in Egypt they will be spared the turbulent lifestyle the Western teenage girls are exposed to....the peer pressure for sex, male acceptance, the temptations of the West.
But her point is that the males (not all but sooo many) succumb to these same temptations so why do they not spare themselves. It's a good and interesting point, indeed. I can answer it: Because the men here typically put more responsibility of behavior on the women. Not saying they don't hold themselves or other men responsible but GENERALLY the woman or girl has to be so much more responsible than they. That's what I have observed, it's a double standard and not an answer that can be made sense of.
IF the men were really caring about the protection and temptations they would save themselves, or the boys would also go back as quick as the girls do at their age...but they do not. The truth is that it's easier to control someone else than it is to control yourself....or perhaps it is that they know that if THEY (the men) cannot resist the Western temptations they know the girls never could. After all, the men always they think they must be so much stronger than a female...so surely there is NO WAY the women could be stronger than them and resist.
Sexism exists...but it exists everywhere in different ways. Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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I'm not gonna lie. I was a little concerned there was some subtle accusations in there and I was a little concerned.
Our history books are full of stories about men who came here and did things they would never consider doing within the boundaries of their homeland - rape, steal, lie, cheat, etc. This is nothing new. Really, ah, it's pretty much been an ongoing issue.
Women have been putting up with this for as long as there's been a west, whether the trip was made for gold, glory, God, or a store on a good street.
Which brings me back to a ? I have for ?s, what do you mean when you say "don't welcome them?
Posts: 758 | From: Here. There. Everywhere. | Registered: Mar 2008
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It makes me wonder what allows the people who go to the West to go crazy. I mean, what are they missing that controls them?
Is it the environment completely? It cannot be, Egypt allows for an environment to do bad things, not all the girls and boys are perfect. If they want to drink alcohol here they could, not as easily on both counts but it is possible. They could rape, steal lie and cheat here, so why in the West?
My opinion is family. The further they get from family and from people 'who know them' the easier it is for them to go crazy. This is what always concerned me with marrying a foreign man...if we ever decided to come to the West would he be one of the men who might take advantage of the situation because he doesn't have to be accountable to neighbors or family watching? Which is why I wanted to go for the more pious (religiously) man - at least with that I have a better chance, but nothing is ever guaranteed. You do the best you can.
BUT, it brings you back to the question 5? was asking. The girls might do it because of the lack of witnesses immediate to her and the men are no different, yet the men stay and are quicker to send the women back. I dunno....
Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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Exactly. Above that, at the same time, a lot of these men are victims themselves. Maybe it's easier by making some examples; the way a foreign man arrives in the west: A* Some are there because of the payed gestures from compatriots; their stay becomes legal by a faked relationship. They have to pay back all expenses, including the fake partner. That's a lot of money. To make all that money they are forced to work for their compatriots, 12 or 13 hours a day, against little payments. It takes years to make that. B* Some are there because a relationship that they already had themselves. They come to the West because of that relationship, and they have to find a job. Because they don't speak the language, don't have any expierence and knowledge of the western way for labour, they don't have many possibilities. That's why they often find work in the same enviroments as under A. They could try to find other work, but it is hard and difficult, and you have to be very lucky if somebody should offer a job with enough payment against legal contracts. C* The students, or the ones who came legal, on temporary visa. After validation is finished, they stay as illegals, and are working for people like under A.
So, in a way they also are a victim theirselves. The way these people are living, and how they get all these knowledge, is by people out of this enviroments.
The big 'bosses' have their expierences by living in the West. They all know, that a wife in the near is only limiting them. The men are able to live their lifes in a much more easier way without her. They didn't have to give her as much money as when she should live in the west, she can't controll the husband anymore, and what does not know, does not complain. And they don't have to worry much about the life-style of the female part of the family anymore. As soon as they are back in Egypt it is her task and her responsebility.
One worrie less.
Bycoming postive result: sometimes they divorce for western law, and the egyptian marriage stayes. Sometimes they have to remarry for that. The western society ( because women and children are still in Europe on paper) is giving them a social allowance, a house and so on. That's not much, but she can easily live from that in Egypt. The house, they use that for the workers as decribed under A, B and C. They have to pay for that, so it's another extra money.
Money and freedom are the most important issues in these communities. Women and daughters are victims, but the men often also are.
And right now we are in the situation that Egypt is more expensive, not safe anymore. This is only the beginning, because it is getting worser day by day. World Food programme has 46 programmes in immediate danger, because there is no money and no food. A lot of countries are in danger, Egypt isn't one of them. Egypt can become as poor as the countries in immediate danger, but it will take a little bit more time.
So, there they are, all these men, in freedom to do whatever they want because there is no family and wife and children around. They recieve alarming phonecalls from home, because the prices are increasing, the country is unstabile, demonstrations, and around the corner revolution or civil war and hunger are waiting. They don't have enough money anymore...
The man talk about this with each other, go to their 'bosses' who are living in the same way as they do, and they decide about the lifes and futures of their relatives far away. Some men are taking responsebility and get their wifes and children back. That means a lot of trouble: a house, school, insurances and so on. They have to re-arrange their lifes again. Majority does NOT. At least, for the ones I know.
They keep their wifes and children in Egypt, in a hard life, with no help, not enough money, and completely on their own.
That's why I think it is a bit criminal....
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: It makes me wonder what allows the people who go to the West to go crazy. I mean, what are they missing that controls them?
My opinion is family.
No, it's not just family. Even larger, interconnected, immigrant families have cases of one - or maybe more - who "go crazy." The (South Korean) kid who shot up Virginia Tech came from a solid, typical suburbanite, immigrant family and look how he turned out. Granted, that's an extreme example, but it is an example all the same.
What I think you're alluding to is the guy who comes over first, right? It surely can't be the guy who's wife excused the gallon of vodka on the kitchen counter as his home remedy for "tooth pain." Or the guy who has a wife back home, one in the States, and one in Canada. All of them have children and, no, none of them know about each other. Hey! He's "a businessman". Note: He assures me he treats them all the same. Or, maybe the other guy who's father spent all day and into the night at the store (with mom and the girls locked in the house), assuming little Rahim had the neighborhood's supervision (just like back home) right up to the point when an older Rahim was sentenced to hard prison time in that shooting a couple of years ago.
No, it's not the presence of family.
It's the same thing we, as Westerners, experience our own selves, Smuckers. You and I were both raised in the West. Even though we may not have seen it with our own eyes, I believe it's safe to say there's something for everybody here, no? And, even though we're pretty sure it might be there, we don't go looking for it because we've learned to say no, and we've learned to say no since we were too old for our parents to say it for us.
It's self-control that's lacking, I think. It's got to be tough to go from an environment where everybody watches your every move and has an opinion about it to nobody batting an eye at your behavior. The move from a "we" to "I" must be tough because some people don't do it very well.
Posts: 758 | From: Here. There. Everywhere. | Registered: Mar 2008
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I don't think its selfcontrol. Because otherwise there would be no difference in their choices regarding the ladies too....and there is. There are enough women labeled as "entrance prohibited" because that would have to many negative results for themselves. The ones who are dangerous to them. Because they have a father, a brother, a friend or a husband with to much influence, and to much power. A relationship with such a lady would bring to much problems for them personally. So, in that case they show selfcontrol. In other cases they don't, because the opportunity is there for them, and it will not have major results for themselves. And what if a wife discovers his other wifes? She will complain and argue for a while, but she will accept... If she wouldn't, if she should be in the position to actually let him feel the results, then he wouldn't... He would have selfcontrol...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote: It's the same thing we, as Westerners, experience our own selves, Smuckers. You and I were both raised in the West. Even though we may not have seen it with our own eyes, I believe it's safe to say there's something for everybody here, no? And, even though we're pretty sure it might be there, we don't go looking for it because we've learned to say no, and we've learned to say no since we were too old for our parents to say it for us.
It's self-control that's lacking, I think. It's got to be tough to go from an environment where everybody watches your every move and has an opinion about it to nobody batting an eye at your behavior. The move from a "we" to "I" must be tough because some people don't do it very well.
Interesting. But most of us are taught self control, even the kids here are taught the same, just in different ways. I do think the difference is that question of accountability.
Comeon, it doesn't matter where you are from, if you are in a different place and have the chance to do something you cannot do in your own country easily, would you do it if you knew it was legal? Example: Marijuana in Amsterdam. I know lots of people would wouldn't smoke it in the states because it's considered illegal but who come back from Europe and have great stories of getting stoned in Amsterdam because it's legal. When they come back they're all prim and proper again but their photos show completely different people.
I dunno, I guess it just really does boil down to the individual. You do bring up a good point though, coming from an environment where you can't walk down the street without everyone knowing to being in a place where nobody pays any attention to anything you do...that's got to be culture shock in itself. Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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