posted
By Nabil Abu Shal, Nasser Al-Sharkawi 28/ 10/ 2008
37-year-old Amr Badr did not know that his son would return dead from his primary school. He did not know that school punishment had been tightened to the extent of killing students if they did not do their homework.
23-year-old teacher Haytham Nabil Abdel Hamid hit 11-year-old student Islam Amr with a ruler and scolded him for not doing part of his homework. After that, the teacher severely hit Islam, who lost consciousness and was taken to Shark al-Madina Hospital. He suffered from dyspnea and slow pulse till he died of slow blood circulation and pulse and failure of respiratory and cerebral functions.
In his deposition before Montazah Prosecution, the teacher said he had hit Islam to punish him and not kill him.
He was sentenced to four days in prison pending investigations on charges of accidental homicide.
posted
The issue of school beatings is major in Egypt. I wish someone would do something about it.
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
right 7yat ,i am not defending the teacher but the defaults is in the system , imagine a teacher with 50 students in her class where there is no space or any equipments and her sallary is 300 le per month and she has to fight 4 a microbus in the morning bla bla , i am not defending the teacher but we should try to raise their standards
-------------------- islam Posts: 2447 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
The salary isn't solving the problem. If she should earn 500 pounds, she still would have 50 students in her class. When I was on elementaryschool, the time just was changing in this.We had also many children in the class, a part of them anti-social, or mentally weak,one teacher, and not everybody was able to handle them. So, the ones who didn't behave, got punished, sometimes with beating, pulling hair, gripping in the arms, etc. Later situation got better, because they sended the disabled to special schools, the anti-socials were better guided, and the classes became smaller. But still it is something that not evry teacher is given: handle a group of children without force...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by McCains chubby cheeks: Egyptian teachers are barbaric and only know pain to get kids to perform. some
Not some, lots.
Actually agree i have met some kind ones and treat the children as if they was their own .Never put all in same category because of one bad apple
Posts: 1116 | From: WARNING All stressed out & no one to choke | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
I don't see anyone putting all in the same category. She said some and I said not some, more than that.
Posts: 6335 | From: Straight to my heart. | Registered: Sep 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Vader: I don't see anyone putting all in the same category. She said some and I said not some, more than that.
i wrote that bit for myself but for some reason i cannot edit at the moment but i say what i said no one has to be tarnished with the bad apple ok . Its like here the muslim priests hit here and believe me they whack and in this country its forbidden but does anyone stand up to them Nah (i did i slapped him )no one hits my child no one .
Posts: 1116 | From: WARNING All stressed out & no one to choke | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
11-year-old kicked to death by teacher in Alexandria
By Safaa Abdoun First Published: October 28, 2008
Badr‘s teacher kicked him for not doing his homework.
CAIRO: Eleven-year-old Islam Amr Badr, a student at Saad Othman Primary School in Alexandria , died Monday after being kicked in the stomach by his mathematics teacher.
It began when the teacher reportedly hit a few of the students — Badr included — with a ruler as punishment for not completing their homework. When Badr did not “show regret”, the teacher took him outside the classroom and kicked him in the stomach.
Badr fell unconscious and was admitted to the hospital, where he died of circulatory failure shortly after.
The teacher, Haitham Nabil Abdel Hamid, 23, was detained by police and confessed to kicking Badr, saying that he only meant to beat Badr for “discipline, but not to kill him.”
Unconfirmed reports claim that a similar case took place in Tanta on Tuesday, when a teacher lashed out at a group of 15 students, allegedly claiming the life of one and leaving seven hospitalized in critical condition.
The incident has shed light on the growing problem of corporal punishment in Egyptian schools, where teachers often resort to violence as a means of punishment. According to statistics by the United Nation’s Children’s Fund (UNICEF), an estimated 50 percent of children in Upper Egypt and 70 percent of children in urban areas are subjected to physical discipline in schools.
“Violence in schools is legally prohibited according to a decree issued by the Ministry of Education during the 1990s. However, due to the fact that the ministry is not enforcing this decree, the problem still prevails,” said Gamal Eid, lawyer and executive director of the Arab Network for Human Rights Information.
“Only when parents intervene and write a petition does the school take action, which usually tends to be a warning for the teacher,” he added.
Human rights organizations slammed this growing problem in Egypt, saying that it is not receiving any attention from government officials and the media.
“Violence in schools is an endemic problem in Egypt despite the Ministry of Education’s decree prohibiting it,” said Hossam Bahgat, chairman of the Egyptian Initiative for Personal Rights.
“The draft child protection law which was presented to the People’s Assembly last June had excellent articles to end this problem, unfortunately, they were amended and practically taken [out],” he added.
The majority are calling on the government to take serious action against corporal punishment in schools, which is a violation to child and human rights. “There needs to be effective legal measures taken to completely end this problem,” said Bahgat.
When contacted by Daily News Egypt, the press office at the Ministry of Education refused to comment on the incident.
posted
I heard some unflattering opinions about Egyptian schools, but didn't know the situation can be that serious... Posts: 2807 | From: Europe | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by egyptian7: right 7yat ,i am not defending the teacher but the defaults is in the system , imagine a teacher with 50 students in her class where there is no space or any equipments and her sallary is 300 le per month and she has to fight 4 a microbus in the morning bla bla , i am not defending the teacher but we should try to raise their standards
ISLAM!!!!!! that kid looks like you..for real for real! looooool
man lemme find out some freak hit my kid! id break all their fingers.
Posts: 2757 | From: YOU CAN ONLY SEE WHAT I CHOOSE TO SHOW, THERE IS SO MUCH MORE YOU JUST DONT KNOW | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
The egyptian educational system with ALL its elements is sooooo flawed,,And its like a closed circle involve all-"The adminstration,,The parents,,The teachers,,The students"-in it...We cannot saying teachers are just bad while everyone else is innocent.
Many teachers are bad and many are good,,Many parents are bad and many are good,,And the students coming out from this bad and good homes,,Thus there are bad students like there are good ones.
I know that is a BLOODY event what is that topic about and noone can say anything else or defend the one who did it..Just stating it before anyone jump on my throat for what im gonna saying after..
But sorry seems like most looking at it through one side and ignore the other point of view AS for talking about teachers generally as the satans here!!
What if for a while you closeeeed your eyes and imagined yourself as a teacher in egypt,,Who spent like 15 years in teaching and your salary is still alike 700 or 800 le with endless obligations "Wanna help your daughter or your son in their marriage for instance or educate your kids as well",,AND that you cannot leave it for anyother job because there isnt in fact other jobs at the moment,,(thats the old teachers salaries..so you can imagine the new teachers how much they could earn),,With an adminstration treating you like they giving you about 5000le and dealing with you as a slave.
Imagine that they put you in a class with like 60 or 70 students,,Feel the hot weather,,Smell the stinking sweat,,Feel the poisoned air.....And almost 40 from the 70 student are spreading noise,,Distracting you from concentrating in what you wanna say in limited time,,Bad words..Calling names,,Fightings,,Disrespecting their colleagues and you as well...Preventing you from saying bunch of proper sentences for continuous fifteen minutes without shouting,,screaming etc..
Do you think that the normal person can handle that atmosphere and give the students a proper info in it??,,Are you honestly capable of being in that working enviroment,,Huh??,,Well,,Do you know that lots are already dealt with that and showed some flexibility and patience to handle it all,,And although everything their consciences still blames them if they didnt make the info reach to their students properly in completely improper enviroment,,How would you look at them??,,And Can you show the same flexibility as they doing in that atmosphere??
Imagine that you ran to the admin of the school to demand the punishment for the bad students like putting them away from class for 2 weeks for instance or even calling their parents to point for them their kids rudness,,Imagine how would you feel if the admin told you...
"Try to deal it by yourself we dont want something to affect our school reputation in the main adminstration...We dont want smoke...We need to keep it all within us".....
Or something like "Oh come on man,,We cannot mess with his father,,He has a great rank in military or police..Ma3lesh..ignore him when you are in the class..Put him out of your head.."
How would you feel for serious??!!!,,How would you act if you feel like someone is strips you completely from every iota of pride and humanity you have just to tell you we cannot do anything to you..His father is a high ranked officer??!!!
I mean look how LOTS on this board for instance act when something or someone hit on their nerves...You would find the rest of fresh dictionaries are opened then loaaaaads and loads of filthy dirt and name calling,,Wouldnt you??,,I hope that those ones are raising their children properly on a civilizated standards if they have any-kids-anyway...The kid at all sees the example in his/her parents..and generally brought up like how s/he see them acting..
So if many fail to be that much civilized on a virtual board,,How would you think s/he will be in same of that teacher circumstances???
What is your opinion for example in a parent who tells his kid,,"If any teacher harmed you just wait him or her outside school and beat them to death?? What if you found your car smashed because you refused some of the students to deceive in the exams to pass unfairly??..That is the fact..its not so dark like that in every school but there is as well a huge mess in the educational system and it cannot be blamed only on the teachers..Like the parents and the students are just so innocent in it all.
Its all complicated process and everyone is involved in it,,Not just teachers,,Teachers are not the only barbaric or the only bad guys..They are not certainly running around to eat the students throats here or drinking their blood..So I think the matter suppose to be looked at by BIT deep looking!!
The civilization of any nation starts by the education..And the main problem of education in Egypt thats its all like a play we plays in the theatre..And ALMOST everyone putting his child in the education,,Doing it for only one reason which is getting a bachelor certificate to be only JUST respected in the society as well as his/her perants..Not for the sake of education itself sadly..
You can find plenty of educated persons but yet still ignorants and uncivilizated at all.
Lots just love to put masks on...
Posts: 712 | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
Misho, hitting and hurting a child is never the answer. You see what it does to children? They grow up with with opinion that violence is okay and accepted and will also do it on their own children. School experience should be a positive educational time in the life of a child and nothing else. It shouldn't suprise anyone if children develop a dislike for school, develop behavioural and psychological problems incl. depression and perhaps have to live in constant fear of their abusive teachers. Can you imagine what it does to a little soul?
There is no way to defend the actions of the person who did this to an eleven-year-old child - not even the work environment. He punished him so severely for not doing his homework. Not doing his homework - is this a justified reason?? Is there any reason which would justify the teacher's behaviour???
No.
After all this man was 23-years-old so just finished his training I assume. Where did he receive his degree from? Did he learn different ways to approach children correctly and wake their interest in learning?
IMHO if the working conditions are that bad don't stay in the job I advise. For 300 LE he could have different work. This person was a ticking time bomb, he simply snapped and god only knows what other horrible incidents happening in the schools.
IMHO the Egyptian educational system needs a complete overhaul. Class sizes need to be reduced and teachers much much better trained.
You know the school my children are visiting is kinda strict too. I was suprised to receive on the first week of school a list which behaviour is accepted and not accepted. Up until Grade 3 my children would receive a daily behaviour chart which states green - excellent, yellow - little incident(s) and red (big problem!). Guess what: my kids never had red and only very very few yellow. Good behaviour is rewarded in class and they know if they would receive red I as the parent have to show up in the teacher's class room and maybe even in the director's office. Booh - and they scared of it. But not because they would receive beatings but it would mean they behaved very bad if they had to show up there and everyone would know.
Yup I was a little surprised it was different when I went to school. Back then it was more lax. But in both cases no hitting etc. of the child was allowed. To abuse a child is never the answer and any teacher who does something like that ends up losing his job and perhaps gets prosecuted.
Seriously I would be scared myself to let my children go off to a school like that. I'd rather homeschool them.
~TL
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by *Misho*: The egyptian educational system with ALL its elements is sooooo flawed,,And its like a closed circle involve all-"The adminstration,,The parents,,The teachers,,The students"-in it...We cannot saying teachers are just bad while everyone else is innocent.
Many teachers are bad and many are good,,Many parents are bad and many are good,,And the students coming out from this bad and good homes,,Thus there are bad students like there are good ones.
I know that is a BLOODY event what is that topic about and noone can say anything else or defend the one who did it..Just stating it before anyone jump on my throat for what im gonna saying after..
But sorry seems like most looking at it through one side and ignore the other point of view AS for talking about teachers generally as the satans here!!
What if for a while you closeeeed your eyes and imagined yourself as a teacher in egypt,,Who spent like 15 years in teaching and your salary is still alike 700 or 800 le with endless obligations "Wanna help your daughter or your son in their marriage for instance or educate your kids as well",,AND that you cannot leave it for anyother job because there isnt in fact other jobs at the moment,,(thats the old teachers salaries..so you can imagine the new teachers how much they could earn),,With an adminstration treating you like they giving you about 5000le and dealing with you as a slave.
Imagine that they put you in a class with like 60 or 70 students,,Feel the hot weather,,Smell the stinking sweat,,Feel the poisoned air.....And almost 40 from the 70 student are spreading noise,,Distracting you from concentrating in what you wanna say in limited time,,Bad words..Calling names,,Fightings,,Disrespecting their colleagues and you as well...Preventing you from saying bunch of proper sentences for continuous fifteen minutes without shouting,,screaming etc..
Do you think that the normal person can handle that atmosphere and give the students a proper info in it??,,Are you honestly capable of being in that working enviroment,,Huh??,,Well,,Do you know that lots are already dealt with that and showed some flexibility and patience to handle it all,,And although everything their consciences still blames them if they didnt make the info reach to their students properly in completely improper enviroment,,How would you look at them??,,And Can you show the same flexibility as they doing in that atmosphere??
Imagine that you ran to the admin of the school to demand the punishment for the bad students like putting them away from class for 2 weeks for instance or even calling their parents to point for them their kids rudness,,Imagine how would you feel if the admin told you...
"Try to deal it by yourself we dont want something to affect our school reputation in the main adminstration...We dont want smoke...We need to keep it all within us".....
Or something like "Oh come on man,,We cannot mess with his father,,He has a great rank in military or police..Ma3lesh..ignore him when you are in the class..Put him out of your head.."
How would you feel for serious??!!!,,How would you act if you feel like someone is strips you completely from every iota of pride and humanity you have just to tell you we cannot do anything to you..His father is a high ranked officer??!!!
I mean look how LOTS on this board for instance act when something or someone hit on their nerves...You would find the rest of fresh dictionaries are opened then loaaaaads and loads of filthy dirt and name calling,,Wouldnt you??,,I hope that those ones are raising their children properly on a civilizated standards if they have any-kids-anyway...The kid at all sees the example in his/her parents..and generally brought up like how s/he see them acting..
So if many fail to be that much civilized on a virtual board,,How would you think s/he will be in same of that teacher circumstances???
What is your opinion for example in a parent who tells his kid,,"If any teacher harmed you just wait him or her outside school and beat them to death?? What if you found your car smashed because you refused some of the students to deceive in the exams to pass unfairly??..That is the fact..its not so dark like that in every school but there is as well a huge mess in the educational system and it cannot be blamed only on the teachers..Like the parents and the students are just so innocent in it all.
Its all complicated process and everyone is involved in it,,Not just teachers,,Teachers are not the only barbaric or the only bad guys..They are not certainly running around to eat the students throats here or drinking their blood..So I think the matter suppose to be looked at by BIT deep looking!!
The civilization of any nation starts by the education..And the main problem of education in Egypt thats its all like a play we plays in the theatre..And ALMOST everyone putting his child in the education,,Doing it for only one reason which is getting a bachelor certificate to be only JUST respected in the society as well as his/her perants..Not for the sake of education itself sadly..
You can find plenty of educated persons but yet still ignorants and uncivilizated at all.
Lots just love to put masks on...
People commit violence because they think they can get away with it or they're mentally ill. Just as there's no excuse in committing serious crimes, there is no excuse for beating up helpless children.
There are rules and laws that apply to everyone and most of all children. The criminal circumstances are relevant only in the penalty phase. But they're criminals.
Posts: 123 | Registered: Oct 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Vader: I don't see anyone putting all in the same category. She said some and I said not some, more than that.
i wrote that bit for myself but for some reason i cannot edit at the moment but i say what i said no one has to be tarnished with the bad apple ok . Its like here the muslim priests hit here and believe me they whack and in this country its forbidden but does anyone stand up to them Nah (i did i slapped him )no one hits my child no one .
In Egypt, the vast majority of teachers in public schools hit children. Many, hit children viciously and cause injuries. That's the norm. This, like most of Egypt's problems, have been happening for decades and gets highlighted every few years and then it's forgotten. Just like sexual harassment, it is not in any way new.
Posts: 123 | Registered: Oct 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: By Nabil Abu Shal, Nasser Al-Sharkawi 28/ 10/ 2008
37-year-old Amr Badr did not know that his son would return dead from his primary school. He did not know that school punishment had been tightened to the extent of killing students if they did not do their homework.
23-year-old teacher Haytham Nabil Abdel Hamid hit 11-year-old student Islam Amr with a ruler and scolded him for not doing part of his homework. After that, the teacher severely hit Islam, who lost consciousness and was taken to Shark al-Madina Hospital. He suffered from dyspnea and slow pulse till he died of slow blood circulation and pulse and failure of respiratory and cerebral functions.
In his deposition before Montazah Prosecution, the teacher said he had hit Islam to punish him and not kill him.
He was sentenced to four days in prison pending investigations on charges of accidental homicide.
posted
If it is okay for a father to beat a teacher, how much better is he then, anyway? The anti-social ones came to my school being pregnant, on elemantary school!!!! Parents indeed were waiting to beat the theachers. I worked at a bank in a similar neighbourhood. Man were waiting after closingtime to treat the employees because they didn't get money while there was none on their accounts. The police had to came to guide the bankemployees... Do you think it'spossible to handle these people with reasoning? There are a number of people who only understand their own ways to communicate, by voilence. We don't know anything about this case, only a result, a fact what has happened.
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
"Teach your children well...", C.S.N.&Y., already sung it thirty years ago. If the parents hit the children, the children wil learn no other way as hit also. Besides that, young unexpierenced teachers can have problems by handling classes. Also they have to learn. They don't have much supremacy, they can't fall back on earlier expierences, they don't know how to be dominant without force. A child normally isn't going to die, because a teacher has hit him,maybe the teacher freaked out... don't know. My father once told me that his teacher hit a child that hard, that the child fell with his chin into the hook of the coatrack... it was an accident, the intention was not to hurt the child that bad, but it happened...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by *Misho*: The egyptian educational system with ALL its elements is sooooo flawed,,And its like a closed circle involve all-"The adminstration,,The parents,,The teachers,,The students"-in it...We cannot saying teachers are just bad while everyone else is innocent.
Many teachers are bad and many are good,,Many parents are bad and many are good,,And the students coming out from this bad and good homes,,Thus there are bad students like there are good ones.
I know that is a BLOODY event what is that topic about and noone can say anything else or defend the one who did it..Just stating it before anyone jump on my throat for what im gonna saying after..
But sorry seems like most looking at it through one side and ignore the other point of view AS for talking about teachers generally as the satans here!!
What if for a while you closeeeed your eyes and imagined yourself as a teacher in egypt,,Who spent like 15 years in teaching and your salary is still alike 700 or 800 le with endless obligations "Wanna help your daughter or your son in their marriage for instance or educate your kids as well",,AND that you cannot leave it for anyother job because there isnt in fact other jobs at the moment,,(thats the old teachers salaries..so you can imagine the new teachers how much they could earn),,With an adminstration treating you like they giving you about 5000le and dealing with you as a slave.
Imagine that they put you in a class with like 60 or 70 students,,Feel the hot weather,,Smell the stinking sweat,,Feel the poisoned air.....And almost 40 from the 70 student are spreading noise,,Distracting you from concentrating in what you wanna say in limited time,,Bad words..Calling names,,Fightings,,Disrespecting their colleagues and you as well...Preventing you from saying bunch of proper sentences for continuous fifteen minutes without shouting,,screaming etc..
Do you think that the normal person can handle that atmosphere and give the students a proper info in it??,,Are you honestly capable of being in that working enviroment,,Huh??,,Well,,Do you know that lots are already dealt with that and showed some flexibility and patience to handle it all,,And although everything their consciences still blames them if they didnt make the info reach to their students properly in completely improper enviroment,,How would you look at them??,,And Can you show the same flexibility as they doing in that atmosphere??
Imagine that you ran to the admin of the school to demand the punishment for the bad students like putting them away from class for 2 weeks for instance or even calling their parents to point for them their kids rudness,,Imagine how would you feel if the admin told you...
"Try to deal it by yourself we dont want something to affect our school reputation in the main adminstration...We dont want smoke...We need to keep it all within us".....
Or something like "Oh come on man,,We cannot mess with his father,,He has a great rank in military or police..Ma3lesh..ignore him when you are in the class..Put him out of your head.."
How would you feel for serious??!!!,,How would you act if you feel like someone is strips you completely from every iota of pride and humanity you have just to tell you we cannot do anything to you..His father is a high ranked officer??!!!
I mean look how LOTS on this board for instance act when something or someone hit on their nerves...You would find the rest of fresh dictionaries are opened then loaaaaads and loads of filthy dirt and name calling,,Wouldnt you??,,I hope that those ones are raising their children properly on a civilizated standards if they have any-kids-anyway...The kid at all sees the example in his/her parents..and generally brought up like how s/he see them acting..
So if many fail to be that much civilized on a virtual board,,How would you think s/he will be in same of that teacher circumstances???
What is your opinion for example in a parent who tells his kid,,"If any teacher harmed you just wait him or her outside school and beat them to death?? What if you found your car smashed because you refused some of the students to deceive in the exams to pass unfairly??..That is the fact..its not so dark like that in every school but there is as well a huge mess in the educational system and it cannot be blamed only on the teachers..Like the parents and the students are just so innocent in it all.
Its all complicated process and everyone is involved in it,,Not just teachers,,Teachers are not the only barbaric or the only bad guys..They are not certainly running around to eat the students throats here or drinking their blood..So I think the matter suppose to be looked at by BIT deep looking!!
The civilization of any nation starts by the education..And the main problem of education in Egypt thats its all like a play we plays in the theatre..And ALMOST everyone putting his child in the education,,Doing it for only one reason which is getting a bachelor certificate to be only JUST respected in the society as well as his/her perants..Not for the sake of education itself sadly..
You can find plenty of educated persons but yet still ignorants and uncivilizated at all.
Lots just love to put masks on...
When I was a young girl in school the teachers were allowed to vent their anger on us. I was in the 6th grade and was turned around saying something to my friend when something hit me in the head . It hurt really bad and after I realized the teacher had whipped A chalk board eraser at my head. I was crying and he came up and grabbed me by the back of my hair and was shaking my head violently telling me to shut my mouth in his class. The next period I felt sick and threw up and was sent to the nurse. My father came to pick me up from school and when he found out from the principal and the nurse what happened he told them first he was going to call the police, then the local news station , and then a lawyer. Needless to say, I was removed from his class, the teacher was suspended for a time and he never did that again..
Violence against a child by an authority figure is wrong, he deserves to be punished for murdering that child and there are NO excuses for this kind of behavior. Teachers choose to educate children, children are naughty and misbehave. The teacher is the mature adult who should have some personal restraint and it is up to the teacher to find creative methods to keep these young minds occupied with learning. If you cannot do your job effectively , or you have no patience then you need to find another proffession, thats it. Corporal punishment was made illegal in our education system, it can be in egypt also..
Bottom line misho, there is no excuse for this kind of behavior from an educator .He murdered that child and deserves to be punished severely. Posts: 1121 | From: Too crazy to look at a freakin map to find out.. | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by *Misho*: The egyptian educational system with ALL its elements is sooooo flawed,,And its like a closed circle involve all-"The adminstration,,The parents,,The teachers,,The students"-in it...We cannot saying teachers are just bad while everyone else is innocent.
Many teachers are bad and many are good,,Many parents are bad and many are good,,And the students coming out from this bad and good homes,,Thus there are bad students like there are good ones.
I know that is a BLOODY event what is that topic about and noone can say anything else or defend the one who did it..Just stating it before anyone jump on my throat for what im gonna saying after..
But sorry seems like most looking at it through one side and ignore the other point of view AS for talking about teachers generally as the satans here!!
What if for a while you closeeeed your eyes and imagined yourself as a teacher in egypt,,Who spent like 15 years in teaching and your salary is still alike 700 or 800 le with endless obligations "Wanna help your daughter or your son in their marriage for instance or educate your kids as well",,AND that you cannot leave it for anyother job because there isnt in fact other jobs at the moment,,(thats the old teachers salaries..so you can imagine the new teachers how much they could earn),,With an adminstration treating you like they giving you about 5000le and dealing with you as a slave.
Imagine that they put you in a class with like 60 or 70 students,,Feel the hot weather,,Smell the stinking sweat,,Feel the poisoned air.....And almost 40 from the 70 student are spreading noise,,Distracting you from concentrating in what you wanna say in limited time,,Bad words..Calling names,,Fightings,,Disrespecting their colleagues and you as well...Preventing you from saying bunch of proper sentences for continuous fifteen minutes without shouting,,screaming etc..
Do you think that the normal person can handle that atmosphere and give the students a proper info in it??,,Are you honestly capable of being in that working enviroment,,Huh??,,Well,,Do you know that lots are already dealt with that and showed some flexibility and patience to handle it all,,And although everything their consciences still blames them if they didnt make the info reach to their students properly in completely improper enviroment,,How would you look at them??,,And Can you show the same flexibility as they doing in that atmosphere??
Imagine that you ran to the admin of the school to demand the punishment for the bad students like putting them away from class for 2 weeks for instance or even calling their parents to point for them their kids rudness,,Imagine how would you feel if the admin told you...
"Try to deal it by yourself we dont want something to affect our school reputation in the main adminstration...We dont want smoke...We need to keep it all within us".....
Or something like "Oh come on man,,We cannot mess with his father,,He has a great rank in military or police..Ma3lesh..ignore him when you are in the class..Put him out of your head.."
How would you feel for serious??!!!,,How would you act if you feel like someone is strips you completely from every iota of pride and humanity you have just to tell you we cannot do anything to you..His father is a high ranked officer??!!!
I mean look how LOTS on this board for instance act when something or someone hit on their nerves...You would find the rest of fresh dictionaries are opened then loaaaaads and loads of filthy dirt and name calling,,Wouldnt you??,,I hope that those ones are raising their children properly on a civilizated standards if they have any-kids-anyway...The kid at all sees the example in his/her parents..and generally brought up like how s/he see them acting..
So if many fail to be that much civilized on a virtual board,,How would you think s/he will be in same of that teacher circumstances???
What is your opinion for example in a parent who tells his kid,,"If any teacher harmed you just wait him or her outside school and beat them to death?? What if you found your car smashed because you refused some of the students to deceive in the exams to pass unfairly??..That is the fact..its not so dark like that in every school but there is as well a huge mess in the educational system and it cannot be blamed only on the teachers..Like the parents and the students are just so innocent in it all.
Its all complicated process and everyone is involved in it,,Not just teachers,,Teachers are not the only barbaric or the only bad guys..They are not certainly running around to eat the students throats here or drinking their blood..So I think the matter suppose to be looked at by BIT deep looking!!
The civilization of any nation starts by the education..And the main problem of education in Egypt thats its all like a play we plays in the theatre..And ALMOST everyone putting his child in the education,,Doing it for only one reason which is getting a bachelor certificate to be only JUST respected in the society as well as his/her perants..Not for the sake of education itself sadly..
You can find plenty of educated persons but yet still ignorants and uncivilizated at all.
Lots just love to put masks on...
When I was a young girl in school the teachers were allowed to vent their anger on us. I was in the 6th grade and was turned around saying something to my friend when something hit me in the head . It hurt really bad and after I realized the teacher had whipped A chalk board eraser at my head. I was crying and he came up and grabbed me by the back of my hair and was shaking my head violently telling me to shut my mouth in his class. The next period I felt sick and threw up and was sent to the nurse. My father came to pick me up from school and when he found out from the principal and the nurse what happened he told them first he was going to call the police, then the local news station , and then a lawyer. Needless to say, I was removed from his class, the teacher was suspended for a time and he never did that again..
Violence against a child by an authority figure is wrong, he deserves to be punished for murdering that child and there are NO excuses for this kind of behavior. Teachers choose to educate children, children are naughty and misbehave. The teacher is the mature adult who should have some personal restraint and it is up to the teacher to find creative methods to keep these young minds occupied with learning. If you cannot do your job effectively , or you have no patience then you need to find another proffession, thats it. Corporal punishment was made illegal in our education system, it can be in egypt also..
Bottom line misho, there is no excuse for this kind of behavior from an educator .He murdered that child and deserves to be punished severely.
posted
Your father called the police to file complaints, the newsstation to put the blame on the school and lay pressure by them, and a lawyer to give him advice and if needed, start a lawsuit against the school.
Your father did so, because in his opinion this is the way we solve problems like that. I think I don't have to tell you that there are millions of fathers who should solve this in a different way, by the way they are used to solve 'matters' and 'issues'. I also don't have to tell you that there are numbers of fathers and mothers who would use the same voilence against the teacher, as the teacher used to the kid. They also will think they are having every right to do so.
Of course teachers are not allowed to use voilence, and there is no excuse to justify that. But, imo there are extenuating circumstances thinkable; the teacher was young and unexpierenced, we don't know anything about the victim and the classmates, we don't anything about the families.
No teacher will intentionally kill a child, and he has to be punished, but there are more sides to the story where we don't know about.
The teacher was 23. My children are in that age, I am working with trainers who are in that age. I know that they all face problems by making a group do what he wants. It's difficult at that age. he has chosen the wrong tools to make children listen, and I think he will regret it the rest of his life, because he can forget about a future anyway.
But in fact it's sad. He never should have been allowed to be reponsable for a that big group.
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ?????: Your father called the police to file complaints, the newsstation to put the blame on the school and lay pressure by them, and a lawyer to give him advice and if needed, start a lawsuit against the school.
Your father did so, because in his opinion this is the way we solve problems like that. I think I don't have to tell you that there are millions of fathers who should solve this in a different way, by the way they are used to solve 'matters' and 'issues'. I also don't have to tell you that there are numbers of fathers and mothers who would use the same voilence against the teacher, as the teacher used to the kid. They also will think they are having every right to do so.
Of course teachers are not allowed to use voilence, and there is no excuse to justify that. But, imo there are extenuating circumstances thinkable; the teacher was young and unexpierenced, we don't know anything about the victim and the classmates, we don't anything about the families.
No teacher will intentionally kill a child, and he has to be punished, but there are more sides to the story where we don't know about.
The teacher was 23. My children are in that age, I am working with trainers who are in that age. I know that they all face problems by making a group do what he wants. It's difficult at that age. he has chosen the wrong tools to make children listen, and I think he will regret it the rest of his life, because he can forget about a future anyway.
But in fact it's sad. He never should have been allowed to be reponsable for a that big group.
Im sorry, no excuses can be made .Maybe Im misreading you but are you saying that what kind of family the child comes from determines whether corporal punishment is justifable??? We have young teachers here also, my daughters primary teacher is 24 and he is very gentle mannered man. Its sad to me that beautiful little boy will never get a chance to grow up and become a man Posts: 1121 | From: Too crazy to look at a freakin map to find out.. | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
Misreading or miswriting, lol. I still am not able to write exactly what's in mind in English! I meant to say that the background of a child( and also the teacher) is influencing behaviour. I don't know the backgrounds of course, but I've heard that children get beated at school AND at home! Disciplining children by beating them is more common as we think it is. It's just another eniviroment as where we are used to. The more expensive private schools are using more civilised ways, and of course it's not this way that every parents beats children, but in the group where children visit the normal state-schools, it is kind of common. That's the way they communicate. I don't know if you have have expierenced certain neighbourhoods in big cities, but I see fights at every corner of the street. They solve their anger by using their fists...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
Obviously it is very wrong what has happened here, I can understand Misho's frustration as the opening comments were implying the majority of teachers in egypt are this way, and thats just unfair.
There is no excuse for this. Teachers should not be getting so mad that they become uncontrollable and violent like this. But also, as misho says, there are wider responsibilities. If society allows teachers to hit children, then it becomes down to the individual how hard he hits - if this is the case, then of course things like this will happen.
If society isn't rpotecting children, if parents are beating children, if schools are not correcting behaviour and having proper sanctions and if teachers are allowed to hit pupils then all will contribute to this.
One thing is clear, it is the children who are the victims, and for that to stop, many things must change.
Posts: 552 | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by ?????: Misreading or miswriting, lol. I still am not able to write exactly what's in mind in English! I meant to say that the background of a child( and also the teacher) is influencing behaviour. I don't know the backgrounds of course, but I've heard that children get beated at school AND at home! Disciplining children by beating them is more common as we think it is. It's just another eniviroment as where we are used to. The more expensive private schools are using more civilised ways, and of course it's not this way that every parents beats children, but in the group where children visit the normal state-schools, it is kind of common. That's the way they communicate. I don't know if you have have expierenced certain neighbourhoods in big cities, but I see fights at every corner of the street. They solve their anger by using their fists...
I think you are concentrating on the social status thing ??? My mother did go to a private catholic school and those nuns would beat them across the hands with rulers, beat them with belts. I dont feel there is any difference when it comes to being private or public school.
Most public schools have a wide range of students ranging from poor-rich . Schools in the ghetto still dont have teachers that beat them.
It doesnt matter-rich, poor, strict parents, lax parents, crazy violent parents- A teacher has no justification in using corporal punishment with ANY child. They are paid to educate our children not beat the bejesus out of them. There are other forms of discipline that are implemented with naughty kids and if a teacher cannot use personal control then he shouldnt be there..
Posts: 1121 | From: Too crazy to look at a freakin map to find out.. | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
But was the school allowing this Rumi? If the school permits low to moderate violence to discipline kids, where does it end?
Its attitudes that need to change. I am sure there are many teachers in Egypt who dont hit kids, but they need other sanctions, that are supported by the school for behaviour management. They cant do it on their own.
I mean, what if a teacher doesn't want to smack a child? how will that be viewed? by the school, by the family? Does the family smack the child? Would they consider the teacher weak if he couldnt control the children, because perhaps the children are used to being smacked?
Posts: 552 | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
This problem is endemic throughout Egypt, and not just public schools. my friend was a teacher at a mostly German, expensive private school and her daughter 6 yrs old attended the school. there were 3 Egyptian women teachers who smacked her daughters face and smacked her around the head, and regulaly stole her food she took. When she complained the response was to gang up on my friend, say her and daughter were liars, dismiss her from her job and tell her to take her daughter from the school cos they dont want problem makers there
Posts: 319 | From: egypt/uk | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
If you got a kid in school in egypt they are probaly hit. Parents in egypt smack the kids around and never bat an eye. Im surprised more kids arent dead there yet.
Posts: 173 | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by **cat**: But was the school allowing this Rumi? If the school permits low to moderate violence to discipline kids, where does it end?
Its attitudes that need to change. I am sure there are many teachers in Egypt who dont hit kids, but they need other sanctions, that are supported by the school for behaviour management. They cant do it on their own.
No I agree with you. If a society sanctions corporal punishment then they have to accept responsiblity for their part in this tragedy..
Posts: 1121 | From: Too crazy to look at a freakin map to find out.. | Registered: Sep 2006
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Did Egypt sign this? what legislation is there in Egypt to protect children's rights?
In England we have many policies that protect children, children have a right to be treated with respect and to be heard and violence against children is an offence, with the exception of smacking...for now.
If the government in Egypt does not support the same policies that could protect children then how will it ever change?
I know that policies can come about through people power, but in reality, as someone else has said, it is commonplace for parents to physically hurt their children. Those same parents are hardly likely to stand up and say 'we want this to stop' if they think its ok.
In addition to the UNCROC, we have the Children Act 1989, what does Egypt have?
Compare the developments in Egypt with that of the UK, things that have influenced how we see children in the UK:
1833 - The Factories Act was the beginning of legal protection for children, acknowledging that children were different from adults and should be treated as such.
1890's - The Child Study Movement, psychological theories developed to explain children's behaviour, influencing child rearing practices.
Psychological theories of child development has hugely influenced how we parent children in the west. Bowlby with his maternal deprivation theory, Mead on his work on 'self' Piaget on his 'milestones', Vygotsky on his 'ZPD' and Bruner on his 'scaffolding' childrens learning - All of which state how children are different to adults and need 'supporting' in their learning, all of which help us to understand how children are different.
We have moved a long way from 'spare the rod and spoil the child', sending children down the pit or up chimneys and understanding positive ways to correct behaviour.
Changes in Education such as The Plowden Report of 1967, The children Act 1989, Every child matters 2003 etc etc.
What does Egypt have?
Posts: 552 | Registered: Mar 2008
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For those who do not know arabic or watch the Egyptian TV, it was great program tonight , they hosted the father of this killed student ,, and the TV presenter ( of the official egyptian TV ) asked for the resignation of the education minster and the pri minster , also the father sent this question to president mubark .. ( waw I did not even expect to hear that in the egyptian tv ) he asked Mubark ,, if the dead one was one of your grand children ,, what action would you have taken!!! well my be some accused or suspected the democracy in Egypt before , but what I have seen tonight in the TV prove that things are improving in Egypt , by the way the program called ELBAIT BETAK
Posts: 1373 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Egor: If you got a kid in school in egypt they are probaly hit. Parents in egypt smack the kids around and never bat an eye. Im surprised more kids arent dead there yet.
I have to agree with you. Without going into great terrible detail from what I have seen I am shocked there aren't daily casualties into local hospitals.
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by **cat**: But was the school allowing this Rumi? If the school permits low to moderate violence to discipline kids, where does it end?
Its attitudes that need to change. I am sure there are many teachers in Egypt who dont hit kids, but they need other sanctions, that are supported by the school for behaviour management. They cant do it on their own.
No I agree with you. If a society sanctions corporal punishment then they have to accept responsiblity for their part in this tragedy..
Agreed Rumi.
Posts: 2807 | From: Europe | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by south_london_male: For those who do not know arabic or watch the Egyptian TV, it was great program tonight , they hosted the father of this killed student ,, and the TV presenter ( of the official egyptian TV ) asked for the resignation of the education minster and the pri minster , also the father sent this question to president mubark .. ( waw I did not even expect to hear that in the egyptian tv ) he asked Mubark ,, if the dead one was one of your grand children ,, what action would you have taken!!! well my be some accused or suspected the democracy in Egypt before , but what I have seen tonight in the TV prove that things are improving in Egypt , by the way the program called ELBAIT BETAK
Resigning a minister isn't the solution.
Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by south_london_male: For those who do not know arabic or watch the Egyptian TV, it was great program tonight , they hosted the father of this killed student ,, and the TV presenter ( of the official egyptian TV ) asked for the resignation of the education minster and the pri minster , also the father sent this question to president mubark .. ( waw I did not even expect to hear that in the egyptian tv ) he asked Mubark ,, if the dead one was one of your grand children ,, what action would you have taken!!! well my be some accused or suspected the democracy in Egypt before , but what I have seen tonight in the TV prove that things are improving in Egypt , by the way the program called ELBAIT BETAK
poor boy. inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi rajioon
he really was such a handsome child. Haram man. So wrong.
Posts: 1967 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ?????: Misreading or miswriting, lol. I still am not able to write exactly what's in mind in English! I meant to say that the background of a child( and also the teacher) is influencing behaviour. I don't know the backgrounds of course, but I've heard that children get beated at school AND at home! Disciplining children by beating them is more common as we think it is. It's just another eniviroment as where we are used to. The more expensive private schools are using more civilised ways, and of course it's not this way that every parents beats children, but in the group where children visit the normal state-schools, it is kind of common. That's the way they communicate. I don't know if you have have expierenced certain neighbourhoods in big cities, but I see fights at every corner of the street. They solve their anger by using their fists...
I think you are concentrating on the social status thing ??? My mother did go to a private catholic school and those nuns would beat them across the hands with rulers, beat them with belts. I dont feel there is any difference when it comes to being private or public school.
Most public schools have a wide range of students ranging from poor-rich . Schools in the ghetto still dont have teachers that beat them.
It doesnt matter-rich, poor, strict parents, lax parents, crazy violent parents- A teacher has no justification in using corporal punishment with ANY child. They are paid to educate our children not beat the bejesus out of them. There are other forms of discipline that are implemented with naughty kids and if a teacher cannot use personal control then he shouldnt be there..
Kids still receive corporal punishment in public schools in the U.S., usually in the more rural areas- with parents signing a release form at the beginning of the school year.
My cousins went to school in a district where kids still got paddled, and that paddle had small holes in it, which was supposed to make it sting more.
Posts: 1967 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
Let me give you an example. I live in Europe, in a country where we supposed to act civilised. This morning I found my secretary in tears, a male customer complained because his office was cold this morning instead of warm. The maintenance engineer supposedly has done something wrong by restarting the system. Or maybe he was pissed because the man already had a very unpleasant attitude, also to him. Anyway, the man was angry, and he used my secretary to vent his frustrations by intimidating and threatening her. He didn't want the problem solved, he wanted the maintenance-engineer back at his office so that he could scold him..... The main goal was not that his office would be warm again, but that he should have a victim to vent his frustration at... I immediatly called the man back ( refused to talk to me ) and told HIS secretary that I send him a serive-engineer because I expected that his goal would be to have a warm office... She excused by saying the man had catched a cold and that it was unpleasant to come into a cold office, which I agree in. BUT is that a reason to treat people this way? I don't think so. Especially not when they are chosing the perfect victim, young girls that don't have anything to do with it, only are there to receive the phonecalls and pass them through. In this cases the "Mr.Directors" , prefering to see bowing and humble servants, have to deal with me, and I don't allow him to treat me like this. Civilised, isn't it? No violence, but people hurted by only words and attitude. It is saying something about this people. And they are everywhere. In Egypt, in Europe and in the US.
Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by south_london_male: For those who do not know arabic or watch the Egyptian TV, it was great program tonight , they hosted the father of this killed student ,, and the TV presenter ( of the official egyptian TV ) asked for the resignation of the education minster and the pri minster , also the father sent this question to president mubark .. ( waw I did not even expect to hear that in the egyptian tv ) he asked Mubark ,, if the dead one was one of your grand children ,, what action would you have taken!!! well my be some accused or suspected the democracy in Egypt before , but what I have seen tonight in the TV prove that things are improving in Egypt , by the way the program called ELBAIT BETAK
Well I think this is at least a step in the right direction as they are looking at the bigger picture. So while some of you might not agree that this will change anything, maybe it wont today, but its a start.
Posts: 552 | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Tutandmoane: This problem is endemic throughout Egypt, and not just public schools. my friend was a teacher at a mostly German, expensive private school and her daughter 6 yrs old attended the school. there were 3 Egyptian women teachers who smacked her daughters face and smacked her around the head, and regulaly stole her food she took. When she complained the response was to gang up on my friend, say her and daughter were liars, dismiss her from her job and tell her to take her daughter from the school cos they dont want problem makers there
In which school did that happen??
~ TL
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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ALEXANDRIA: A 30-minute drive further into Alexandria’s eastern outskirts and the classical 1920s architecture so typical of the old city begin to give way to more recent, plain groups of untiled buildings clustered along the sides. The fresh sea breeze becomes a stench of dung and dust as the streets begin to narrow, forming a large maze of unpaved alleyways known to its inhabitants as El-Ras El-Soda.
Hardly known to the average Egyptian when thinking of Alexandria, El-Ras El-Soda was home to 11-year-old Islam Badr, who recently died when kicked by his mathematics teacher in his chest for failing to present his homework.
Pacing up the stairs in one of the few tiled buildings in the area, Islam’s eight-year-old brother Sirag led the way to their small apartment. Inside, he ran to a small room with two beds. “This is our bed; Islam, Abdel Rahman and me,” he said pointing to medium-sized bed at the corner of the room. “Our sister sleeps on the other bed.”
Since the death of their son, Islam’s parents have refused to go back to their home and preferred to stay at a relative’s place, leaving Islam’s deserted clothes, shoes and books as he last left them in the room.
Islam’s books lay on his bed. In large red font he’d written his full name on the first page of his brand new drawing notebook. “He had neat handwriting,” said Sirag with a faint smile as he held one of his brother’s homework notebooks.
The relatives’ place was not difficult to spot after a short walk in the bumpy alley. A crowd of people dressed in black stood at the entrance to the building and filled the stairs all the way to the apartment where Islam’s parents were staying. Islam’s mother sat silently at the far corner of a room, pushing back her deceased son’s picture with a quivering hand as someone tried to hand it to her.
“I used to be very wary lest my son gets hurt or sick. I sent him to his own death on that day,” she said, her voice breaking into a sob.
“Unlike his brother, my son hardly complained to me about anything that happened to him at school. He was always quiet and kept to himself,” said Amr, Islam’s father.
“Islam was a decent, quiet boy who hardly gave anyone a hard time,” said Sheikh Ahmad, a bearded man in his early 20s who used to give Quran lessons to Islam at the local mosque. “I can’t imagine how he could have provoked any teacher, let alone elicit such a violent reaction.”
“But I could sense sometimes that he was troubled,” recalled his mother, “he asked me once for money to buy some school supplies. He said that his mathematics teacher threatened to fail him in his exam if he did not bring them.”
After Islam’s violent death in the classroom, most of his classmates stopped going to school, traumatized by what they saw. Two of them recalled what happened to Islam in detail.
“Some of the students had not done their homework, so Mr. Haitham [the mathematics teacher] began to hit the palms of their hands with the stick. Islam pulled his hands to rub them and fell to the ground, so Mr. Haitham kicked the side of his chest,” explained Abdel Rahman.
“He fell on the ground, lay under the desk and began to urinate,” described Ahmad, “So Mr. Haitham beat him again with the stick.”
Both children confirmed that the teacher lifted Islam’s head and they could see the boy’s eyes were half open, his face gone blue, and he appeared unconscious.
A group of teachers carried Islam and took him away to a nearby clinic.
Abdel Rahman continued, “After the teachers took Islam another teacher came to the class and said, ‘Islam is alright, so don’t say anything to the police. If you do, your parents might be taken to the police station and they will be asked a lot of questions and get into trouble.’ We did not want to lie, so the teacher said, ‘don’t lie, but don’t talk too much.’”
At the clinic, Dr Ahmad Sadiq was the first physician to examine Islam. He suggested to the teachers to take the child to a hospital, declaring that the child was “dead.” The primary hospital report, of which Daily News Egypt obtained a copy, stated that Islam was not breathing when he arrived to the hospital and no pulse was detected. Heart resuscitation was administered successfully and he was placed on life support. No signs of physical abuse were mentioned in the report.
“When I went to see my son at the hospital I found bruises all over his back and chest, and Dr Sadiq told me that my son was dead when he arrived at the clinic,” complained Amr, “There is no way my son died of heart failure like the hospital staff tried to convince me. He played soccer twice a week. There was nothing wrong with his heart.”
Dr Sadiq refused to comment to Daily News Egypt on Islam’s condition when he arrived at the clinic, or compare it to the hospital report, declaring that what he had to say is now with the father.
Corporal punishment in primary schools has been a tradition in Egypt for decades. The commonly held stereotype of the Egyptian teacher is one of a middle aged man carrying a book and a multi-purpose stick in his hand used for “disciplining” the class. With a rising problem of overcrowding specifically in government run schools, corporal punishment has taken more severe forms, several times causing serious physical injury.
However, despite the rage the death of Islam has caused among the El-Ras El-Soda community, few seemed to have objections to what they considered “mild beatings” at school for the purpose of disciplining the child. Many showed quick willingness to accept apologies if their children did not suffer permanent injury.
“My daughter almost lost her eye once,” said a parent who refused to be identified, “The teacher was trying to hit her palm with a ruler but it accidentally hurt the eye. The teacher apologized to us. And when we checked with the doctor that our daughter’s eye was fine we did not file any complaints against the teacher.”
Roqaya Hamid Zaki, 12, was hit in the head with a ruler by the school teacher. With guilty uneasiness she eyed her father as he spoke on her behalf.
Beatings of the children inside El-Ras El-Soda schools were recalled by both children and parents as a de facto form of educating. “Mr. Haitham would lift up the stick very high,” demonstrated Abdel Rahman, rolling his arm backwards, “and land it strongly on the palms of our hands. Sometimes it fell on our fingers, making them swell,” he explained.
Abdel Rahman described the “stick” with which the teachers beat him and his schoolmates. It was not always a ruler. “It is a long wooden object that is very thick.” He demonstrated with his little hand what appeared to be a five-centimeter diameter.
In response to a series of human and child rights organizations the Egyptian government has issued a comprehensive law banning all forms of child abuse, ratified by the parliament in June 2008. Executing the law, however, is a serious challenge especially in remote areas such as El-Ras El-Soda, which suffers from compounded problems.
The area seems to the casual visitor like a cultural ghetto impenetrable by the law. Alleged drug trafficking is an open practice around the school premises, and extortion of public land is reported to be a common practice unstoppable by the state. In such a chaotic atmosphere, both teachers and parents feel victimized.
“High ranking officials from the ministry would never bother to visit one of our schools. They only go to the private schools in the city,” snapped Amr.
“It is really unfair that the whole problem is being laid on the teacher like this,” complained Aya, a student affairs specialist in a neighboring school. “The class is loaded with 60-80 students. How would anyone expect a single teacher to keep their sanity in such mess?”
She is collecting money with a number of Haitham’s colleagues to find him a lawyer.
“I get paid LE 104 [$18] a month, and I don’t even receive it on a monthly basis. I end up searching for an afternoon job,” she said.
Aya was hoping she would be appointed by the ministry office through what is called a “special” contract that offers extra benefits, earning her LE 317 ($57) a month. However, this turned out to be a system applied only in few of the ministry offices, and with no consideration for experience.
“We have no chances for a decent life,” hollered Islam’s aunt, “it is as if we bring children to their own death. And so Islam is gone, he was too good for this world.”
Bottom line misho, there is no excuse for this kind of behavior from an educator .He murdered that child and deserves to be punished severely.
You dont need to put the angry face for me,,Im not the killer nor did I make any excuses or justification for him,,And in fact I dont like to be looked at by angry faces...As I stated clearly in my post that its not to defend him or his act...If I misread your angry face then I do apologize.
And for everyone red my post as making excuses or justifications for the killer,, Nowhere I've said something like "Hey lets forgive the killer" "Hey lets just leave him to kill some more children..its okay because of his circumstances"!!!!!!,,Did I say something like that??!!!!!,,I advice you to read things kinda deeply before making general judgmental comments..
My post OBVIOUSLY was addressing some facts about the Egyptian teachers for those who made general comments about them being barbaric and masters of pain and this sort of crap...,,There is nothing easier more than sitting behind our computer screens,,Drinking some hot coffee,,Reading articles and then make judgemental superficial orders/accusations to a people of a country we have fewely visited it or never been in it all..Isnt it??
- First of all,,You cannot make comparisons between teachers in 1st world countries and between 3rd world country,,So different circumstances..financially..socially..psychologically..enviromentally...I said it clearly as well..Egypt doesnt care about education and sure it doesnt as US or Europe doing for sure..A country do care about qualifying the teacher technically by every possible way for teaching and the other sinking in blind bureaucracy and all what it care for is if papers are officialy okay or not...So How come you suppose to wait the same results or manners between the teacher from here and the teacher from here??!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- Secondly ,,Since I have been talking about how the educational system in Egypt is flawed..So logically some suppose to examine some info they talk about before talking about it,,I just red some where in the thread something like "He chose to be a teacher",,,How would you know something like that...
In the egyptian educational system the most dont choose how their future career is,,So few students who do choose and enter what they wish to study,,Its like s/he got a certain degree in high school and that degree which qualifying them to specific colleges,,Thats it,,For some their grade give them limited choices,,And for others its quite wider,,And others there is no chances for them at all but re-schooling their last year in high school again in an attempt to better grades which could qualify them to good college in their opinion..And so on..Not like I wanna be a doctor so fine Im gonna be doctor.....
And on the other hand most of society as I've been said - in my loong post which many didnt took from it nothing but only that I make excuses for the killer - looking forward education because of the certificates only for how society will respect'em not because of education itself,,Some colleges are more respected as well more than others because of how much financially it could be useful,,And on the other hand society as well looking in colleges when their children up to choose at... "What makes more money??...Not What my child like to be??"....Thus there is much more desires from the vast majority of people in specific colleges and refusing to the rest...Thus it makes the specific grade to be accepted in those colleges is higher than the others...Thus it does make chances for many many limited in choosing what they wanna study.....
And sometimes the family could force their kid for specific college,,Like someone for instance get high grade but he wanna study the archeology but his family force him to enter the medical school..Because they think it has more prestige in the society or it makes more money...So you can find loads who studying field they are not interested in studying it...Thus you can find the unqualified doctors who could forget towels in the patient stomachs...Unqualified engineers who make weak buildings...Unqualified teachers who beat children to death...
And If for instance someone chose a field s/he liked which consider to be not good financially or has less prestige,,The social circle around that person will mostly look at him as being loser or crazy or idealist...And Hear words like "You are doing crap...."
Anyway,,Simply you could find plenty of people who are working in fields they do hate working in it...What would you wait from them??...What could be their contributions in the place they work in except more mess and sickness....
I meant it when I said the whooooole system is flawed...Everyone involved in it..The whoole society..NOT ONLY THE TEACHERS...There is no excuses here I suppose for the killer..
-Thirdly As for saying simply if he doesnt like his career then he can go and look for another job,,I can say nothing but its seriously amazing how its sooooo easy to sit behind our screen and spread orders to people in the other side of world while we almost know nothing about the circumstances in their country,,For those I just have a question,,How long you have been in Egypt??,,Or have you ever been in it??,,And what you actually know about it??!!!!!
- Fourthly To clear some more about hitting,,Im gonna give an example on me..And Im from those who do like,,Chose & believe in the role of their career by the way but hate how its all seem like a good play be played in the theatre..
Im a teacher who is not from the type who like to hit..Working in teenagers school..Art field...So you can imagine what is the most things teenagers would think of it more than anything else..Teenagers here who believe deeply inside'em in the concept that the education is useless to them btw..They are mainly obssesed with 'Butts...D!cks...Boobs...balls..etc',,Then so few who would be interested in working with me,,And lots just love to mess around the class,,So to clean up the mess the teacher have almost 2 options in Egypt:-
- Hitting the leader of mess hard as they used to so his gang will gonna be panic as well as the whole class and everyone just stay like the bench he is sitting on it.
- Going to the adminstration of the institution s/he is working in and demand a suitable punishment for the students who misbehave or disrespecting their colleagues or their teachers..As I said in my first post in that thread..The admin will never doing what the teacher want except only in great cases..'Like one case a student take his pants off in a class with a new female teacher'...But in any other case which they see okay the admin usually say..deal with it..we dont need noise in the main adminstration about our school...
May some would ask themselves...In what way they lead the teacher here??..What if someone doesnt want to hit???,,What about female teachers who cannot hit??
Anyway..Since Im not interested in hitting plus there is no point to hit a student to just sit by force to draw or work art,,IMO art is all about having mood and DESIRE to do it,,Not through force certainly,,And I'd be so unsatisfied about an art work of a forced student..,,And after exhausting all the educational avenues with the misbehaving students to attract them to work with me,,But yet I found it like no way..They just keep me as well as the other students distracted all the time...So I decided to put it all in the admin hands to see how they will gonna deal with it...
I opened the door of my class and told them "Noone is forced to stay in my class..Who wanna go,,just do now freely,,But who will sit while he doesnt want either to sit or to work but just wanna sit to make headaches for me..then he has to accept/bear ANYTHING Im gonna do to him"...So almost I found about half of the class hold their bags and go,,Some times they increase or decrease,,And then they just start to mess around in the whoole school...Thus normally the headmaster calling me..And it be usually like this...
He: its illegal to just set your students free around like this..Keep them in.
Me: They make so much mess and they distracting me as well as their colleagues.
He: Punish them.
Me: I wanted to but you dont help me,,And I cannot do without the adminstration's cooperation sir.
He: We told you,,You can punish without noise,,Hit them.
Me: Im sorry I cant,,If I lost my temper with anyone I'd probably end up killing him or him killing me because by the way,,Some having white weapons..And anyway certainly I dont wanna spend my future in a dirty cage sir...You can hit them by yourself Or if you dont want use another tools of punishment other than hitting....
He: Ok,,You are switched to legal accountability for encouraging the students for escaping from the school...
And continuously it going like that with me about specific classes in the school..Switching me to the legal accountability as well as bunch of other colleagues who making the same..And In the legal accountability the investigators often let us or give us light punishment because they know what is happening on the land of facts,,But what is the result...A gangs of students messing around freely without serious attempts for modifying their behavior,,As long as the papers and the prestige of the institution is okay so nobody cares...
They leading the techers straight to hitting,,Striping them from any other options of punishment and if they refused then they be switched to the legal accountability!!!!
Its easy to say teachers are barbric,,And blame it all on them!!!!!!!
- Fifthly Since some decades,,The vast majority of egyptian families started to raising up their children on a concepts like 'Big fish always eat the small fish'..'Those who have more strength are the ones who have the last word'..'Law has been made just to fool the weak people who cannot get their rights by their hands'..'The more you are strong,The more your voice will be heard'..'Get your rights by force cause by any other way you probably will end up by empty hand'..etc..etc..
Bullying started to be real and serious problem in Egypt..And its started to be the culture of that era here in most homes..Between adults and children lots have started to believe in that eventually when they have tried both ways,,To got their rights through Law and through bullying and found out that bullying has worked better for them.
The teacher killer of that topic has only 23 y.o,,So that teacher today was nearly a student yesterday,,He has made a stupid crime out of anger,,He has lost now his future,,Probably when he gonna get out from the prison after loong years he will be one of those which will gonna hold kind of grudge and mess in the society because always people will look at him by shame and noone will ever going to forgive him even if he got his punishment,,So it might be better for the guy to execute him or keep him in prison forever...Or what kind of punishment are people here suggest if I can ask??
But yet punishing him severaly will not going to better that in the society or better the sitiuation at all,,Probably it will stay like that and in the future there will be a teachers who will gonna do the same and kill some kids,,Future teachers who are today students.
Yes that teacher is a criminal who did the stupid crime,,But Is he the only criminal and there is no any other people have to be considered to share the crime with him??!!!!!
Another question,,Why do people started to raise up their children on the concept of bullying/hitting and that law is useless and usually it is for the weak people??!!!!!,,Arent there any other deminisions for that issue??
At last,,Bottom line,,Some people do need to step off their high horses for a bit when they are up to discuss some event deeply and try to study it well and looking at the whooole image,,Specially if its about some faraway country with completely different circumstances,,Just if they do care enough to,,Otherwise,,Its ok if they wanna show their sympathy or disgust about something,,But without making judgmental comments or accusations..That is fair enough.
Posts: 712 | Registered: Sep 2006
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Bottom line misho, there is no excuse for this kind of behavior from an educator .He murdered that child and deserves to be punished severely.
You dont need to put the angry face for me,,Im not the killer nor did I make any excuses or justification for him,,And in fact I dont like to be looked at by angry faces...As I stated clearly in my post that its not to defend him or his act...If I misread your angry face then I do apologize.
And for everyone red my post as making excuses or justifications for the killer,, Nowhere I've said something like "Hey lets forgive the killer" "Hey lets just leave him to kill some more children..its okay because of his circumstances"!!!!!!,,Did I say something like that??!!!!!,,I advice you to read things kinda deeply before making general judgmental comments..
My post OBVIOUSLY was addressing some facts about the Egyptian teachers for those who made general comments about them being barbaric and masters of pain and this sort of crap...,,There is nothing easier more than sitting behind our computer screens,,Drinking some hot coffee,,Reading articles and then make judgemental superficial orders/accusations to a people of a country we have fewely visited it or never been in it all..Isnt it??
- First of all,,You cannot make comparisons between teachers in 1st world countries and between 3rd world country,,So different circumstances..financially..socially..psychologically..enviromentally...I said it clearly as well..Egypt doesnt care about education and sure it doesnt as US or Europe doing for sure..A country do care about qualifying the teacher technically by every possible way for teaching and the other sinking in blind bureaucracy and all what it care for is if papers are officialy okay or not...So How come you suppose to wait the same results or manners between the teacher from here and the teacher from here??!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- Secondly ,,Since I have been talking about how the educational system in Egypt is flawed..So logically some suppose to examine some info they talk about before talking about it,,I just red some where in the thread something like "He chose to be a teacher",,,How would you know something like that...
In the egyptian educational system the most dont choose how their future career is,,So few students who do choose and enter what they wish to study,,Its like s/he got a certain degree in high school and that degree which qualifying them to specific colleges,,Thats it,,For some their grade give them limited choices,,And for others its quite wider,,And others there is no chances for them at all but re-schooling their last year in high school again in an attempt to better grades which could qualify them to good college in their opinion..And so on..Not like I wanna be a doctor so fine Im gonna be doctor.....
And on the other hand most of society as I've been said - in my loong post which many didnt took from it nothing but only that I make excuses for the killer - looking forward education because of the certificates only for how society will respect'em not because of education itself,,Some colleges are more respected as well more than others because of how much financially it could be useful,,And on the other hand society as well looking in colleges when their children up to choose at... "What makes more money??...Not What my child like to be??"....Thus there is much more desires from the vast majority of people in specific colleges and refusing to the rest...Thus it makes the specific grade to be accepted in those colleges is higher than the others...Thus it does make chances for many many limited in choosing what they wanna study.....
And sometimes the family could force their kid for specific college,,Like someone for instance get high grade but he wanna study the archeology but his family force him to enter the medical school..Because they think it has more prestige in the society or it makes more money...So you can find loads who studying field they are not interested in studying it...Thus you can find the unqualified doctors who could forget towels in the patient stomachs...Unqualified engineers who make weak buildings...Unqualified teachers who beat children to death...
And If for instance someone chose a field s/he liked which consider to be not good financially or has less prestige,,The social circle around that person will mostly look at him as being loser or crazy or idealist...And Hear words like "You are doing crap...."
Anyway,,Simply you could find plenty of people who are working in fields they do hate working in it...What would you wait from them??...What could be their contributions in the place they work in except more mess and sickness....
I meant it when I said the whooooole system is flawed...Everyone involved in it..The whoole society..NOT ONLY THE TEACHERS...There is no excuses here I suppose for the killer..
-Thirdly As for saying simply if he doesnt like his career then he can go and look for another job,,I can say nothing but its seriously amazing how its sooooo easy to sit behind our screen and spread orders to people in the other side of world while we almost know nothing about the circumstances in their country,,For those I just have a question,,How long you have been in Egypt??,,Or have you ever been in it??,,And what you actually know about it??!!!!!
- Fourthly To clear some more about hitting,,Im gonna give an example on me..And Im from those who do like,,Chose & believe in the role of their career by the way but hate how its all seem like a good play be played in the theatre..
Im a teacher who is not from the type who like to hit..Working in teenagers school..Art field...So you can imagine what is the most things teenagers would think of it more than anything else..Teenagers here who believe deeply inside'em in the concept that the education is useless to them btw..They are mainly obssesed with 'Butts...D!cks...Boobs...balls..etc',,Then so few who would be interested in working with me,,And lots just love to mess around the class,,So to clean up the mess the teacher have almost 2 options in Egypt:-
- Hitting the leader of mess hard as they used to so his gang will gonna be panic as well as the whole class and everyone just stay like the bench he is sitting on it.
- Going to the adminstration of the institution s/he is working in and demand a suitable punishment for the students who misbehave or disrespecting their colleagues or their teachers..As I said in my first post in that thread..The admin will never doing what the teacher want except only in great cases..'Like one case a student take his pants off in a class with a new female teacher'...But in any other case which they see okay the admin usually say..deal with it..we dont need noise in the main adminstration about our school...
May some would ask themselves...In what way they lead the teacher here??..What if someone doesnt want to hit???,,What about female teachers who cannot hit??
Anyway..Since Im not interested in hitting plus there is no point to hit a student to just sit by force to draw or work art,,IMO art is all about having mood and DESIRE to do it,,Not through force certainly,,And I'd be so unsatisfied about an art work of a forced student..,,And after exhausting all the educational avenues with the misbehaving students to attract them to work with me,,But yet I found it like no way..They just keep me as well as the other students distracted all the time...So I decided to put it all in the admin hands to see how they will gonna deal with it...
I opened the door of my class and told them "Noone is forced to stay in my class..Who wanna go,,just do now freely,,But who will sit while he doesnt want either to sit or to work but just wanna sit to make headaches for me..then he has to accept/bear ANYTHING Im gonna do to him"...So almost I found about half of the class hold their bags and go,,Some times they increase or decrease,,And then they just start to mess around in the whoole school...Thus normally the headmaster calling me..And it be usually like this...
He: its illegal to just set your students free around like this..Keep them in.
Me: They make so much mess and they distracting me as well as their colleagues.
He: Punish them.
Me: I wanted to but you dont help me,,And I cannot do without the adminstration's cooperation sir.
He: We told you,,You can punish without noise,,Hit them.
Me: Im sorry I cant,,If I lost my temper with anyone I'd probably end up killing him or him killing me because by the way,,Some having white weapons..And anyway certainly I dont wanna spend my future in a dirty cage sir...You can hit them by yourself Or if you dont want use another tools of punishment other than hitting....
He: Ok,,You are switched to legal accountability for encouraging the students for escaping from the school...
And continuously it going like that with me about specific classes in the school..Switching me to the legal accountability as well as bunch of other colleagues who making the same..And In the legal accountability the investigators often let us or give us light punishment because they know what is happening on the land of facts,,But what is the result...A gangs of students messing around freely without serious attempts for modifying their behavior,,As long as the papers and the prestige of the institution is okay so nobody cares...
They leading the techers straight to hitting,,Striping them from any other options of punishment and if they refused then they be switched to the legal accountability!!!!
Its easy to say teachers are barbric,,And blame it all on them!!!!!!!
- Fifthly Since some decades,,The vast majority of egyptian families started to raising up their children on a concepts like 'Big fish always eat the small fish'..'Those who have more strength are the ones who have the last word'..'Law has been made just to fool the weak people who cannot get their rights by their hands'..'The more you are strong,The more your voice will be heard'..'Get your rights by force cause by any other way you probably will end up by empty hand'..etc..etc..
Bullying started to be real and serious problem in Egypt..And its started to be the culture of that era here in most homes..Between adults and children lots have started to believe in that eventually when they have tried both ways,,To got their rights through Law and through bullying and found out that bullying has worked better for them.
The teacher killer of that topic has only 23 y.o,,So that teacher today was nearly a student yesterday,,He has made a stupid crime out of anger,,He has lost now his future,,Probably when he gonna get out from the prison after loong years he will be one of those which will gonna hold kind of grudge and mess in the society because always people will look at him by shame and noone will ever going to forgive him even if he got his punishment,,So it might be better for the guy to execute him or keep him in prison forever...Or what kind of punishment are people here suggest if I can ask??
But yet punishing him severaly will not going to better that in the society or better the sitiuation at all,,Probably it will stay like that and in the future there will be a teachers who will gonna do the same and kill some kids,,Future teachers who are today students.
Yes that teacher is a criminal who did the stupid crime,,But Is he the only criminal and there is no any other people have to be considered to share the crime with him??!!!!!
Another question,,Why do people started to raise up their children on the concept of bullying/hitting and that law is useless and usually it is for the weak people??!!!!!,,Arent there any other deminisions for that issue??
At last,,Bottom line,,Some people do need to step off their high horses for a bit when they are up to discuss some event deeply and try to study it well and looking at the whooole image,,Specially if its about some faraway country with completely different circumstances,,Just if they do care enough to,,Otherwise,,Its ok if they wanna show their sympathy or disgust about something,,But without making judgmental comments or accusations..That is fair enough.
First misho, that angry face was meant for the fact that an 11 yr old child was murdered and the man should be punished severly, not for you. If a nurse kills a patient and everyone is screaming for justice, do you think that I become as offended as you do??? Does everyone else ???? You jumped to conclusions you really shouldnt have so I accept your apology..
Second, read the article above you. You are laying sympathy the wrong way, an 11 yr old child died by his teachers hands. If you imagine that child was yours-you sent him to school for education and then he never comes home again would you really feel the same way???
Third, its not a high horse and I can say how I feel-that poor child will never grow up, he will never expirience life get married or have children. Its ok that he is a casuality of a system that allows this to happen???Instead of getting upset that people are judging a teacher without knowing the issue-well it takes teachers to get the community together and stand up for change. Teachers shouldnt have to beat a child, that is what the parents are for. Teachers teach and they should have the support of the parents. If little joey throws paint at you and tells you to f--k off, then little joey should be suspended and then the parents should be supporting the educators by effectively punishing them when they get home. Teachers have a hard enough time teaching without having to parent them also. However, you should be appalled at that teacher for beating this child to death and instead of getting upset and taking it personally you should be mad that this man made it that much harder for teachers to have the support they deserve..
Forth, you are making excuses and I am not on my high horse. Just because it is a 3rd world country doesnt excuse it, but maybe that is why it is still a 3rd world country or maybe I am misreading what you said-If I did I do apologize.
Finally, every country has issues and everyone judges. You've never been to America yet you have preconcieved notions about it- It's not about high horses, its about taking a look at a problem and trying to solve it not ignore it. To affect change you have to be proactive, it takes one candle to light a world of flames... Posts: 1121 | From: Too crazy to look at a freakin map to find out.. | Registered: Sep 2006
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By Rania Al Malky First Published: October 31, 2008
On Monday Oct. 27 the mother of 11-year-old Islam Amr Badr packed her son’s lunch as usual. But as she rushed him off to school that morning nothing could have prepared her for the agonizing news she would hear a few hours later; that she will never see her son alive again.
News of the death of Islam at the hands of his 23-year-old mathematics teacher Haitham Nabil Abdel Hamid shocked the nation this week, triggering a string of condemnations that culminated in calls for the resignation of the Prime Minister and the Minister of Education. Interestingly, it took three whole days following the boy’s death for said minister Yousry El Gamal to express his “regret” over the “incident,” to promise compensation for the bereaved family and to decide to convene an emergency meeting to reiterate the absolute prohibition on the use of violence and corporal punishment in schools.
It’s easy to condemn, regret, pontificate, denounce, attack, revile and censure such acts of gratuitous violence, but in Egypt, does it make any difference?
What happened at Saad Othman Primary School in Alexandria when the teacher kicked and punched a child to death for not doing his homework, is nothing new to our venerable education arena, which is increasingly taking the shape of a Darwinian jungle where only the fittest survive.
It’s difficult not to see that this is merely a reflection of the growing violence in Egyptian society as a whole, where ordinary citizens, un-cushioned by money and connections, are tortured in police stations or thrown in prison for no reason; where women and girls are sexually harassed on the streets and in the workplace with impunity and where total chaos prevails everywhere, from street traffic to the courthouse.
In another case that shook the country last year, one primary schoolchild lost an eye when a teacher threw a sharpened pencil at him. This is where the vicious circles of repression, subjugation and violence is born and so it comes as no surprise that by the time these children reach high school, they start hitting back against teachers they no longer respect.
Ironically the “incident” took place two years after the launch of the “Cairo Declaration” and the Regional Consultation for the Middle East and North Africa’s UN Study on Violence Against Children in 2005, under the auspices of Egypt’s First Lady Suzanne Mubarak.
In the preamble to the Cairo Declaration the signatories recognized that “children are citizens and fundamental partners in the democratic process, participants bear in mind that all policies, programs and mechanisms pertaining to combating violence against children should be in conformity with the principles spelled out in the Convention on the Rights of the Child, namely; best interests of the child, “non-discrimination,” the right to life, survival, development and respect for views of the child and the right of the child to express these views in the family, the school, and all institutions … [and] commit themselves “to ensure protection of children from corporal punishment and explicitly prohibit corporal punishment in all settings including in the family; schools and other institutions.”
It would be unjust to ignore the efforts of Egypt’s National Council for Childhood and Motherhood (NCCM) which has set up a children’s hotline (16000) to receive complaints and whose chair Mushira Khattab has been instrumental in amending the controversial Child Law last March, but much more needs to be done to ensure the seamless implementation of these and other related laws.
Legal experts say that if Islam’s killer is convicted of battery leading to death, he will get a maximum sentence of seven years in prison but with a good lawyer, he could get away with involuntary manslaughter winding him up in prison for only three years.
In Egypt, corporal punishment in schools has been banned since the early 90s, but where are the mechanisms to monitor these schools and ensure the eradication of all forms of violence against children who have no means of protecting themselves?
In a TV interview, Manal Shahin, director of the NCCM hotline, said that in the past two years, 85 teachers have been penalized for using corporal punishment in the classroom based on student and parents’ complaints.
She recalled a recent case where one primary school child’s arm was broken when he was roughed up by his teacher, but added that the real crisis lay in the minimal punishment meted out to the perpetrator who only got three days docked off his salary and was transferred to another school.
On the day following the death of Islam, another investigation was initiated into the “broomstick beating” of 15 primary school children in the Delta city of Mahalla which led to more broken arms, bruises and undoubtedly the birth of more amputated spirits.
The final forensic report on the cause of death in Islam’s case will be ready in 21 days. Whitewash attempts have already begun with random claims by the school and by the education ministry’s administrative authorities in Alexandria disputing Islam’s father, Amr Badr’s, contention that his son was already dead by the time he was taken to hospital.
The legal battle here isn’t between one murdered child’s father and a 23-year-old teacher, but between an entire underprivileged sector of society and a government that has abandoned it; one that has relinquished all its duties; one that is guilty on all counts, whether negligence, arbitrary hiring of unqualified teachers or failure to monitor the implementation of laws banning corporal punishment in schools.
Two days after his father lowered him into the grave Islam’s mother was still in shock, her family restraining her from hysterically leaving the house to pick up her dead 11-year-old from school.
Nothing will bring Islam back to life, but if his death does not lead to the legal, social and administrative upheaval it warrants, then he will forever be immortalized as the symbol of Egypt’s abortive efforts to build a future that is at least less tragic than its present.
posted
Rumi - You said it is up to the parents to hit the child...Isn't this where the problem starts?
You said it takes only one person to start a change, but as Misho explained, he and other teachers are standing up to the administrators and they are being TOLD to hit the children, and when they refuse, THEY are being punished for it.
I think Misho's post was a good one and shows what is actually happening through the eyes of a teacher.
If little Johnny throws paint at the teacher and the teacher sends him to the head teacher and the head teacher send him back and says to the teacher 'you deal with it, hit him or something, I dont want to know' What is the teacher suposed to do?
All he can do is stand up as Misho and others are - but perhaps some people will not be so confident, perhaps some teachers see no problem in hitting since it is all over his society as 'o.k' and maybe he was raised to do the same.
Change takes huge pressure from many many people, parents who smack their children are probably not that bothered if the teacher smacks them too? will they stand up against violence against children? probably not.
The people will not change this problem Rumi, because the vast majority of the people in Egypt are also socially conditioned to believe that violence and aggression against children (and each other) is o.k.
If the majority think it isn't then they have a huge task ahead of them, and it seems that some teachers are already standing up for this. But it takes the parents to stop hitting their kids also. It takes the parents going to the school and putting pressure on the school that they dont want their children hit by staff, or even other pupils.
We cannot judge a society by our own standards, you and I live in societies that for the past 100 years have been focused on improving standards of education, care and welfare for children. Improving psychological understanding of children and trying to educate people in ways of positive parenting, not using physical violence to 'control' children. And yet still, in our countries, we have families beating their kids.
Change takes a long time, I listed many policies from my own country, I asked, what policy does Egypt have similar to these? Do Egypt even have Social workers? I dont think so...
Change will only occur as a result of social AND political pressure, one changes the other. When the schools stand up and say 'we dont want to use physical punsihment' then perhaps the voice will be loud enough to change policy.
B?ut as long as you have headteachers not supporting their staff, the teachers voice will only go so far...
I will ask another stupid question - Do teachers have unions in Egypt?
I just read the article above - So corporal punishment has been banned in schools since the 1990's... So when Misho gets told to hit the children he is being told to commit an offence, so if that is the case, when there is an investigation, why do they not want to do anything about it?
Just another example of why people in Egypt dont take laws seriously and solve problems themselves, because clearly, no one is bothered about enforcing the laws anyway - unless of course someone dies.
A society cannot be described as barbaric when it is merely trying to survive, if they have no protection from corruption and no protection from injustice, then its human nature to deal with things in whatever way they can.
Posts: 552 | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
No cat, I wasn't saying parents should hit children but discipline them to support the teacher so they don't have to tolerate disrespect from these children. However abuse to a child in this fashion clearly shows the teacher had a predisposition to violence and a lack of self control. - clearly stated the teachers do need support from the parents,community and administration. Society does shape behavior and misho made some valid point on stating the conditions the teachers work under. Being a teacher is a tough job in a society that misho states doesn't appreciate education. Would u have this same arguement if it was your child though? Do you think this arguemrnt eould comfort you if you needlessly lost your child in this senseless manner? Misho can't see from the eyes of being a parent like we can ansd the the thought of losing one of my children in this manner turns my stomach, that's what eygpt is dealing with nows its international so many will wait to see how the government handles it..
Posts: 1121 | From: Too crazy to look at a freakin map to find out.. | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
Rumi, Its not about how i would feel in the mothers shoes, its about what you said 'what can be done to rectify the situation?'.
Sending the teacher to prison will not make the situation better, its much wider than that, that is what I am saying. No one is saying what he has done is right, forgiveable or justifiable. Only that in order for things to change, Society must change, peoples attitudes must change.
No one should ever lose their child in this way, but clearly it is happening, and I believe it is happening because violence is being used to discipline children accross the board, not just by some teachers, and not just in schools.
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