posted
I was a bit confused by Obama's "Muslim World" comment. Why did he bring that up in his Inaugaration speech? Seriously? Why? And why did he put us all in one basket?
Starting to get pissed at him already.
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Because Muslims all over the world are very dear to him; nethertheless he was born as one.
He wants to become your best friend - so give him a chance. Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I just thought it was a bit odd that he brought it in his Inaugaration speech. It seemed a bit out of place. And it's silly to put us all in a basket and say "the Muslim world" since there are so many different Muslim countries with different cultures, ideologies etc. It's like saying the "Christian world".
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
As an American, I saw it this way: it marks a shift from the fear mongering and hatred that has been the status quo since 9/11. The theme has been. That "the Muslim world" collectively hates us and would like to wipe us off the face of the planet. I think it is an important step to begin to recognize the"the Muslim world" as more than just the extremists and terrorists. He has a tough job ahead of him could we at least give him a chance?
Posts: 929 | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
Also a bit further on in his speech he referred to Americans as Christians, Muslims, hindus, etc and non-believers. This is also important because it recognizes that"they" are actually "us". But, more importantly, it is a move away from the far right stance that "good" Christians are the only "true" Americans.
Posts: 929 | Registered: Jul 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Mira Sol: Also a bit further on in his speech he referred to Americans as Christians, Muslims, hindus, etc and non-believers. This is also important because it recognizes that"they" are actually "us". But, more importantly, it is a move away from the far right stance that "good" Christians are the only "true" Americans.
I don't feel comfortable when they (the American politicians) mention god. It is a secular country by constitution. Doesn't that mean that the president (not necessarily this one) or the administration is taking a stance against those without a religion. I don't mean that the president or other politicians shouldn't have a religion, what I'm saying is that it shouldn't interfere with politics. Similary interferences of religion into politics are things like swearing on a bible (not because it's the bible but because it's a religious book, I would've said the same if it was any other book). Also the phrase "in god we trust" on US money! In Bush time, I always thought it should read "in sod we trust"! Another is the christmas tree/celebration, etc.
The situation in the UK is different for example. The Queen is the "defender of the faith", so she must be christian. Archbishop of Canterbury is automatically a member of the house of Lords, absolutely ok with me. and other examples, and probably a similar case with other European and muslim countries. But the US is different, it was designed to be a secular nation. I remember reading some really progressive words by one of the "forefathers" about this issue, can't remember who though. So when and why did religion creep into American politics? I remember reading one time that it had to do with the cold world to mobilise people against the athiest USSR, and that the phrase on the money came around world war II. I might be mistaken though.
Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
please don't misconstrue my previous post that I'm against religion. I'm not, as a matter of fact I have one of those!
Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Mira Sol: Also a bit further on in his speech he referred to Americans as Christians, Muslims, hindus, etc and non-believers. This is also important because it recognizes that"they" are actually "us". But, more importantly, it is a move away from the far right stance that "good" Christians are the only "true" Americans.
Well Mira, I really hope you are right Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mira Sol: Also a bit further on in his speech he referred to Americans as Christians, Muslims, hindus, etc and non-believers. This is also important because it recognizes that"they" are actually "us". But, more importantly, it is a move away from the far right stance that "good" Christians are the only "true" Americans.
I don't feel comfortable when they (the American politicians) mention god. It is a secular country by constitution. Doesn't that mean that the president (not necessarily this one) or the administration is taking a stance against those without a religion. I don't mean that the president or other politicians shouldn't have a religion, what I'm saying is that it shouldn't interfere with politics. Similary interferences of religion into politics are things like swearing on a bible (not because it's the bible but because it's a religious book, I would've said the same if it was any other book). Also the phrase "in god we trust" on US money! In Bush time, I always thought it should read "in sod we trust"! Another is the christmas tree/celebration, etc.
The situation in the UK is different for example. The Queen is the "defender of the faith", so she must be christian. Archbishop of Canterbury is automatically a member of the house of Lords, absolutely ok with me. and other examples, and probably a similar case with other European and muslim countries. But the US is different, it was designed to be a secular nation. I remember reading some really progressive words by one of the "forefathers" about this issue, can't remember who though. So when and why did religion creep into American politics? I remember reading one time that it had to do with the cold world to mobilise people against the athiest USSR, and that the phrase on the money came around world war II. I might be mistaken though.
That's interesting because I've always thought of America as much more religous and conservative then most other countries. I mean they've got the bible belt and that whole speaking in tongues stuff is really big there. I don't mean to offend anyone by the tongues comment, I'm just using it as an example of how devout people are.
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
US Muslims: Obama's use of Hussein in oath sends message
Muslim Americans view Barack Obama's intention to use his middle name Hussein during the reciting of the oath of office as a sign that he's heeded their call for greater inclusion....
To Imam Yusuf Salim of Masjid Muhammad, a mosque in Washington, it will be a statement of intent.
"Obama may be Christian, but he cannot deny his roots, his heritage. Hussein is a beautiful name, meaning 'good' or 'handsome.' It was in honour of his grandfather. Why would anyone hesitate to proudly state it?"...
"By reclaiming Hussein in his name, which he had to avoid during the campaign, disappointing and angering many Muslims, Obama will tell Americans and the world that he does really stand for change we can all believe in," said student Rashid Rizvi Mohiuddin, 21. "If not, we'll know it was all eloquence without substance."
Hodari Abdul Ali of Muslim Alliance in North America, a national network of mosques and Muslim organisations, said that while Obama's campaign disappointed him, he held out hope of his potential to heal the Muslim world "damaged" by President George W Bush.
"Obama distanced himself from our community during his historic campaign. It was such a dichotomy - we felt we were being kept at arm's length and yet we funded his campaign and voted for him," said Ali, a fixture at Iraq and Palestinian demonstrations.
"We want to tell him that it's now okay to embrace us," Ali said....
Others spoke of how Muslims were the "most peaceful group in America," their reputation tarnished by the "media and US policy." Teacher Masooma Khan, 44, said: "One of Allah's names means peace, another means justice. We want peace and justice for all, especially minorities, to be the cornerstones of his administration."...
Providence, Politics, and the birth of Religious Freedom in America
-- Steven Walden
In the opening days of the first Congress and the first presidency, God's assistance was requested explicitly and repeatedly.
In his inaugural address, George Washington declared that there was an ''invisible hand'' that ''conducts the affairs of men,'' and we must therefore offer prayers to ''that Almighty Being who rules over the universe, who presides in the councils of nations, and whose providential aids can supply every human defect.''
The House of Representatives responded to Washington's speech by joining in the call for a ''fervent supplication for the blessings of heaven on our country.''
Washington wrote back with more religion-soaked rhetoric. He said he would surely rely on ''a continuance of the blessings of Heaven on our beloved country.''
Actually the Puritans tried to establish Protestantism as the official faith in the very beginning but they failed.
So one can see the roots of religion and how it had worked its influence at the outset.
As for putting a hand on the Bible as an oath of Office I don't think it's appealing to the supernatural so much as it for an appeal to the oath-taker that he or she should be bound by some inner meaning or at least an appeal to a conviction. Same as in God we trust, it is symbolic. This I'm sure would include some of the folks who had a hand in the founding of this country including Washington. It's simply something one has to say to hold office; at the same time politics plays a part too; you have to pander to some of the people who ascribe to the religious view in order to get elected. I don't think it means an oblique attempt to put a Bible in anyone's hands. That said, there are undoubtedly some who wish this were true.
Plus, according to the author, the First amendment's Founders only intended it to apply to the Federal government, not the local governments that regulate schools, local courthouses, and town squares.
Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by * 7ayat *: That's interesting because I've always thought of America as much more religous and conservative then most other countries. I mean they've got the bible belt and that whole speaking in tongues stuff is really big there. I don't mean to offend anyone by the tongues comment, I'm just using it as an example of how devout people are.
I totally agree about individuals, and yes some are very conservative. I'd say much more than in Europe in which most countries are christian by constitution. I was talking about the state and the so called separation of church and state.
Thanks Grunman for your clarifications, again I'm not contesting your views but my understanding is that it was intended as a secular state. I'm not sure about you're federal vs local government interpretation though.
btw, this thing about talking in tongues is really bizarre! I'm really surprised that some people fall for it.
Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Seriously though: I am more than a little irritated at the complete lack of faith in Obama. He is a 180 degree change from Bush.
When I was abroad and heard complaints about Bush I was more than happy to jump on the bandwagon, I loathe the little weasel.
But when I was in Egypt a few weeks ago, EVERYONE had to point out how they "don't trust Obama", and I think that is just downright rude. His heart is in the right place, what he can accomplish will depend greatly on the how much the rest of the government will LET him accomplish. I just feel like people are complaining now out of habit and prejudice.
Give him a chance, because if you are whining and complaining already, it is more about you than about Obama. Don't trust Americans? That is a different thread altogether.
Posts: 929 | Registered: Jul 2008
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Seriously though: I am more than a little irritated at the complete lack of faith in Obama. He is a 180 degree change from Bush.
That's odd, because I understand that the snake (serpent) is a symbol of evil/sin/satan in the bible.
As for Obama, I think you're being a tad too sensitive. I didn't feel anybody displayed lack of faith in him. My post was about religion in politics in general and has nothing to do with him personally. The only post that's a bit skeptical was 7ayat, and that's skeptical not negative.
I totally agree with you, he's diametrically oposite to the other idiot in everything not least of which eloquence. Although he did have a Bush moment, when he gaffed during the oath!
Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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And my sensitivity isn't based on your comments but the dozens I recieved from Egyptians while there shortly before the inaguration. It is a general irritation, nothing personal
And for the record the gaffe was on the part of the person who adminstered the oath:
Seriously though: I am more than a little irritated at the complete lack of faith in Obama. He is a 180 degree change from Bush.
When I was abroad and heard complaints about Bush I was more than happy to jump on the bandwagon, I loathe the little weasel.
But when I was in Egypt a few weeks ago, EVERYONE had to point out how they "don't trust Obama", and I think that is just downright rude. His heart is in the right place, what he can accomplish will depend greatly on the how much the rest of the government will LET him accomplish. I just feel like people are complaining now out of habit and prejudice.
Give him a chance, because if you are whining and complaining already, it is more about you than about Obama. Don't trust Americans? That is a different thread altogether.
I think people just have a bit of a bitter taste in their mouths from the Bush years. I hope Obama turns out to be a good leader, but sadly for him, it will take him a long time to undo what Bush did.
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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''I'm not sure about you're federal vs local government interpretation though.''
It was the book's author's interpretation.
That said, because of your uncertainty and mine, as a whole, this is probably the reason why there are Constitutional lawyers, pro and con.
Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
What difference does it make whether he's muslim or not? This is politics we're talking about
We have many presidents in the Arab countries who're muslims. What good did they do to muslim people or how were they any better than Bush to humanity in general?
Obama has a challenge to deal with. He's lucky though because he stepped in knowing the challenge he inherited from Bush to work on and fix
Posts: 33 | From: Cairo, Egypt | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
Lol CPA, you went completely off topic. We were not talking about if he is muslim or not, we were talking about a comment he made during the speech. Read the thread carefully please.
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
OK, further off topic, but worth mentioning.
I had the dubious pleasure of some out of town guests yesterday, and they said that they are really terrified about the direction Obama is taking the country (um..so far that includes federal wage freeze, an order to close gitmo, and a timeline to pull out of Iraq).
They were racist a**holes to the core, bemoaning the loss of a president who had "experience". Yes, experience running the ship aground is better than no experience at all it seems.
If nothing else, be glad that we have finally tipped the balance against people who think that way. They are not ready to let go of the muslim=terrorist idea. If for no other reason than to piss off everyone who ever voted for Bush, it is your divine duty to support Obama
(joking of course about the divine duty)
Posts: 929 | Registered: Jul 2008
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quote:Originally posted by * 7ayat *: I think people just have a bit of a bitter taste in their mouths from the Bush years. I hope Obama turns out to be a good leader, but sadly for him, it will take him a long time to undo what Bush did.
Exactly, too many problems on his plate to fix permanently.
I am totally annoyed by all the Obama hype and the media coverage on his family. Seriously who cares what kind of freaking dog will live in the White House???
America has way bigger problems to deal with!!
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by * 7ayat *: I think people just have a bit of a bitter taste in their mouths from the Bush years. I hope Obama turns out to be a good leader, but sadly for him, it will take him a long time to undo what Bush did.
Exactly, too many problems on his plate to fix permanently.
I am totally annoyed by all the Obama hype and the media coverage on his family. Seriously who cares what kind of freaking dog will live in the White House???
America has way bigger problems to deal with!!
That kind of crap is just to amuse the sort of people who are interested in things like Brangelina and TomKat Sadly it is way too many people that can't worry about anything more improtant than what stars and celebrities are wearing, so therefore if you want to catch their attention for even a second puppies and school lunch menus at the the Obama girls new school are the order of the day... Yes...the school lunch menu!
quote:Originally posted by Mira Sol: OK, further off topic, but worth mentioning.
I had the dubious pleasure of some out of town guests yesterday, and they said that they are really terrified about the direction Obama is taking the country (um..so far that includes federal wage freeze, an order to close gitmo, and a timeline to pull out of Iraq).
They were racist a**holes to the core, bemoaning the loss of a president who had "experience". Yes, experience running the ship aground is better than no experience at all it seems.
If nothing else, be glad that we have finally tipped the balance against people who think that way. They are not ready to let go of the muslim=terrorist idea. If for no other reason than to piss off everyone who ever voted for Bush, it is your divine duty to support Obama
(joking of course about the divine duty)
It's not a surprise though. Some people are just blind. I'm always surprised at how many people in Egypt still support and "love" Mubarak Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mira Sol: OK, further off topic, but worth mentioning.
...(joking of course about the divine duty)
I'm always surprised at how many people in Egypt still support and "love" Mubarak
7ayat; I dont think I have personally met anyone who is in love with Mubarak. I have worked with "someone" who in "the" parliament campaign stood with a sign saying "YA MUBARAK YA TARYYAR E7NA WARAK 3ALA KHAT EL NAR" and referred to his son as the mozza who would save Egypt's dirty face . But that is simple a** kissing yaani mafihoosh fn
Now, that is one thing, and loving the guy is another. I mean the genuine love thing! I never came across it khales.
Posts: 1813 | From: Cairo | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Mira Sol: OK, further off topic, but worth mentioning.
...(joking of course about the divine duty)
I'm always surprised at how many people in Egypt still support and "love" Mubarak
7ayat; I dont think I have personally met anyone who is in love with Mubarak. I have worked with "someone" who in "the" parliament campaign stood with a sign saying "YA MUBARAK YA TARYYAR E7NA WARAK 3ALA KHAT EL NAR" and referred to his son as the mozza who would save Egypt's dirty face . But that is simple a** kissing yaani mafihoosh fn
Now, that is one thing, and loving the guy is another. I mean the genuine love thing! I never came across it khales.
Negeg, If I can get a penny every time I heard an Egyptian saying "howa a7san men ghero" about Muby, I would be a millionaire now. For me this is as bad as loving him.
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mira Sol: OK, further off topic, but worth mentioning.
I had the dubious pleasure of some out of town guests yesterday, and they said that they are really terrified about the direction Obama is taking the country (um..so far that includes federal wage freeze, an order to close gitmo, and a timeline to pull out of Iraq).
They were racist a**holes to the core, bemoaning the loss of a president who had "experience". Yes, experience running the ship aground is better than no experience at all it seems.
If nothing else, be glad that we have finally tipped the balance against people who think that way. They are not ready to let go of the muslim=terrorist idea. If for no other reason than to piss off everyone who ever voted for Bush, it is your divine duty to support Obama
(joking of course about the divine duty)
It's not a surprise though. Some people are just blind. I'm always surprised at how many people in Egypt still support and "love" Mubarak
The US is doing that, as they ( the CIA) also, in a dark past, have supported the MB to take over. A world of difference between a militairy general and the MB, isn't it? Cynical to notice that right now the ones who took all the rich peoples land during the revolution, are the rich people now. Egypt had a cultural elite when it was still a kingdom, it had a middleclass, and indeed it had poverty. But people were more free as they are now. Right now majority is poor and unfree, so the generals didn't bring anything good for the mass. The only thing where it has been 'good'for, was their own wallets...
Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
Negeg, If I can get a penny every time I heard an Egyptian saying "howa a7san men ghero" about Muby, I would be a millionaire now. For me this is as bad as loving him.
You think?? To me, this ppl are cowards, they know it will never get better for them. This is the effect of the current system. They don't believe progress or change is possible. They lost faith in a "leader". Dole masakeen!
But this is far from love 7ayat. Just a mix of a broken soul and lack of faith.
Posts: 1813 | From: Cairo | Registered: Aug 2002
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