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A woman without love wilts like a flower without sun. The Fabulous Destiny of Amélie Poulain, comedy France 2001.
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Questionmarks: A woman without love wilts like a flower without sun. The Fabulous Destiny of Amélie Poulain, comedy France 2001.
thank you very much, yes, I think that's one I was looking for. Cheers!
Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Questionmarks: A woman without love wilts like a flower without sun. The Fabulous Destiny of Amélie Poulain, comedy France 2001.
thank you very much, yes, I think that's one I was looking for. Cheers!
So do you think the saying is true????
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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So do you think the saying is true???? [/QB][/QUOTE]
No comment (Ramses thinks: cheeky penny wants to start a war )
Questionmarks, is this a famous play, novel, classic, etc? I understand it's a recent film, but is it based on some classic? I'm impressed by your quick response (and grateful), are you into culture, cinema, etc?
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quote:Originally posted by Penny: Ah come on RM I like reading your comments and wondered what you thought
you probably know better whether it's true or not, you're the woman. I've never been a woman before, and it's not in my plans for the immediate future I won't give you my opinion, but I'll tell you the context in which the issue arose. It's a long story and unfortunately I don't have the time to write an essay now! so maybe later or tomorrow. In the mean time, maybe you or whoever has a view and is willing to share it can make their input.
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No comment (Ramses thinks: cheeky penny wants to start a war )
Questionmarks, is this a famous play, novel, classic, etc? I understand it's a recent film, but is it based on some classic? I'm impressed by your quick response (and grateful), are you into culture, cinema, etc? [/QB][/QUOTE]
Ramses: No, I'm afraid I'm only into Google! I googled on the expression and found this: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Am%C3%A9lie On the external links (downpage) there is a link to the movie. To be honest I am not at all into movies, I'm the sports-type.
Penny: It's a comedy, so I guess this is cynical. If you take a look at women who are married for ages and see how they look (wilted) then LOVE made them more suitable for extreme make-overs as for the frontpage of men-magazines!
Vader: Go and wash your mouth... Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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hmmm, for some reason I don't feel comfortable with the word "bizarre", as for quirky, yep that should be ok. It seems I'm starting to build a reputation here of not being romantic. It's not true.
ya nas ya hoo, ana romantic, wallahi romantic
for some reason people confide in me and cry on my shoulder, my shoulder is wet all the time from the tears. Male friends seek rational objective opinions from me, and female friends seek non-judgemental emotional support. They wouldn't do that if they felt I was rigid or not romantic.
Ana romantic, ana romantic, ana romantic then he passed out Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Vader-: A woman without love is like a vagina without a penis.
That is sooooo 'romantic'.
Unfortunately you won't make it like that through the first date with any girl, Vader!! Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Vader-: None of your business, fat hoe.
Not better either, Vader!! You won't get laid that way.
Anyway where do you pick up such very charming words - by watching the Egyptian Teletubbies or what?? Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: Anyway where do you pick up such very charming words - by watching the Egyptian Teletubbies or what??
careful there, tinky winky is gay. Some American nutcase came to this conclusion I can't possibly imagine how, I mean he doesn't even have gentials for heaven sake, I'm not even sure of his gender!!!
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quote:Originally posted by Ramses nemesis: hmmm, for some reason I don't feel comfortable with the word "bizarre", as for quirky, yep that should be ok.
Mh, I think bizarre wasn't the right expression, surreal would have been more appropriate. There are all sorts of odd and magical things happening in that movie.
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quote:Originally posted by Ramses nemesis: I'll tell you the context in which the issue arose. It's a long story and unfortunately I don't have the time to write an essay now! so maybe later or tomorrow. In the mean time, maybe you or whoever has a view and is willing to share it can make their input.
This issue came up in two separate conversations with two different women. To make a long story short the gist of the conversations was gender roles in a relationship in the 21st century (no that’s not the title of a talk!). I should say that both women, whilst different, have things in common. Both have recently crossed 40, both are quite independent financially and otherwise, and both are single. They have come to the conclusion that they scare men off. One of them is annoyed that men always want to take care of her!!! She once had a row with her ex because he wanted to come pick her up from the airport when she arrived from overseas! Her point was that she could manage on her own and didn’t need a man to come pick her!!! I told her that men “normally” like to be (or at least think they are) the protector and provider of the woman. I suppose it’s from the time of our granddads the Neanderthalians, probably hard-wired in a man’s brain. If they feel they don’t fulfil this role they’ll question they’re value. It’s a male insecurity I believe.
The other woman is a very successful one, way ahead of all her male peers by leaps and bounds. This is a really curious case, in her mid thirties she started to freak out about marriage and her biological clock, etc. by her late thirties she was willing to make major concessions. After crossing 40, she started changing in the opposite direction, she’s started to become the stereotypical man-hater!! A friend of mine who’s a doctor told me that when a woman reaches this age without having a partner, she starts resenting men because they don’t appreciate her (I think this is his personal rather than professional opinion though). Another female friend told me that women in this age start to experience some “irregularities” in their female issues (no not menopause)
Anyway, so this is how the issue of a woman without love came up. Some women would consider this to be the most important role of a man, but I think many if not most men would not agree, and would feel they should have a more tangible role as mentioned above.
Phew, there you go, that’s the essay for you Penny. Happy now? I hope this doesn’t start a war, I’m just recounting a conversation, so please don't take it personally.
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Thanks RM for taking the time it certainly makes an interesting subject when you widen it to gender roles in the 21st century, and hits a raw nerve with me having been at loggerheads all week with my husband over very similar issues, strangely enough also triggered by an airport pick up. Like your first lady he always organises this and I have always let him because I know it satisfies his caring protective role. Then suddenly for the first time ever (in 7 years) he doesn't do it, and like your 1st friend I am more than capable of organising myself but was really mad to almost be stranded in the middle of the night. That bought out in me my 'I don't need any man to help me' side and we have been at loggerheads ever since, and the row has widened from just an airport pick up. If I am honest I would actually prefer to organise myself there is something about this so called protective role of men that ends up leaving you feeling like a child and its wearing very thin with me these days. I think its hard for any woman in a responsible capable role in her work life to be able to balance this sort of outdate thinking, however well ment. It feels like you are being made dependant when the truth is all you want is an equal platform that proves love and care. I can well imagine that does scare a great many men and of course when we look at Egyptian men in particular its an even bigger problem.
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Penny: I think its hard for any woman in a responsible capable role in her work life to be able to balance this sort of outdate thinking, however well ment. It feels like you are being made dependant when the truth is all you want is an equal platform that proves love and care. I can well imagine that does scare a great many men and of course when we look at Egyptian men in particular its an even bigger problem.
I'm sorry you're having problems with your partner at the moment, I hope things will clear up and return to normal soon. I'm sorry also that you were stranded in the middle of the night.
I do agree with your statement about women in management roles, but I assure you that a man's motivation is not to make her dependant or imply that she's incapable in any way (well, at least I can speak of myself). It's just a way of saying I'm here for you, I'm happy to go through any trouble so that you don't have to.
It is a difficult situation indeed, and I don't know how it can be resolved. I believe many men can not accept that they are dispensible. Even biologically - if we were to widen the context further - due to sperm banks and in the future cloning, etc. It's a wider philosophical issue, almost existential for men!! and those are just manifestations of the collective subconcious worry of 21st century men (wow, that big talk )
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quote:Originally posted by Ramses nemesis: Phew, there you go, that’s the essay for you Penny. Happy now? I hope this doesn’t start a war, I’m just recounting a conversation, so please don't take it personally.
Just for the record, when I said don't take it personally I wasn't refering to you, it's just a general statement. As you know some people around here are ultra-sensitive.
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Mwah, interesting how opinions can be different about the very same subject. I like my husband picking me up from the airport, because to me it means that he cares for me, and is happy to see me again. I really hate it when I have to get home by train, with all that luggage. I even plan my flight back on a time that he is able to pick me up, after once it took him 4 hrs. on a monday-morning during rush-hours. It doesn't make me feel dependant at all...
What should make me feel dependant, is when he should be the only one who brings in money. Or when I would have to ask permission to do what's in my mind. Such things...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Questionmarks: Mwah, interesting how opinions can be different about the very same subject. I like my husband picking me up from the airport, because to me it means that he cares for me, and is happy to see me again. I really hate it when I have to get home by train, with all that luggage. I even plan my flight back on a time that he is able to pick me up, after once it took him 4 hrs. on a monday-morning during rush-hours. It doesn't make me feel dependant at all...
What should make me feel dependant, is when he should be the only one who brings in money. Or when I would have to ask permission to do what's in my mind. Such things...
The airport thing is not really that important it was just the trigger ( wasn't left stranded by the way it was sorted all be it at the last minute) and yes i agree normally I do appreciate it for the same reasons as you...providing it happens LOL .
But you have also hit on where the trigger has now gone and who brings in the money and like you I can't cope with that sort of level of dependancy. As far as Im concerned it has to be joint and I can't accept any other alternative. I have come to realise I would give up love before I give up my business. Never had to question myself on that before but the answer is clear in my head.
With all these things there is usually a balance to be found and I am sure RM is right about most men's motivation, it just needs understanding on both sides.
So one thing I have learned is I might be prepared to wilt without the sun but I sure am not going to wither without a business. Funny what you come up with when tested Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Questionmarks: What should make me feel dependant, is when he should be the only one who brings in money. Or when I would have to ask permission to do what's in my mind. Such things...
you're points are well taken QM, but why would you feel dependant when he's the only breadwinner. Is it because this implies control? Do you tie this with the permission issue you mention in the following sentence. Those are true questions not rhetorical ones. I'm trying to understand (although trying to understand a woman is probably a futile endeavour )
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RM on the breadwinner issue its more about how I feel about myself, I can't sit back and expect someone else to do everything for me, it would be demeening. Loss of independance though would also be very scary, can't imagine having to stay in a marriage because of financial dependance..no way..but then isn't that better to have a woman as a partner knowing she's there for the right reasons and not just because you are her mealticket?
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Questionmarks: What should make me feel dependant, is when he should be the only one who brings in money. Or when I would have to ask permission to do what's in my mind. Such things...
you're points are well taken QM, but why would you feel dependant when he's the only breadwinner. Is it because this implies control? Do you tie this with the permission issue you mention in the following sentence. Those are true questions not rhetorical ones. I'm trying to understand (although trying to understand a woman is probably a futile endeavour )
Well, maybe it's because about what my father teached me when I was young. His father died when he was a kid, and my grandmother had to make a living for her and 6 kids. There were no social allowances during that time. She managed, but it was hard, of course. Sometimes there even was no food. He understood the importance for women to learn, have an occupation, and be able to take care of herself, in case when she might have to live alone. There are social allowances now, but it's living on a very low level, and being able to have a job and a salary, should avoid this situation. It was one of the important 'rules' during my childhood: learn, work, and be sure that each year your life has become a little bit better as it was... Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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So one thing I have learned is I might be prepared to wilt without the sun but I sure am not going to wither without a business. Funny what you come up with when tested
I thought many women would give up everything for true love. At least that's what the media leads us to believe, with all those film characters abandoning their families, wealth etc for some vagabond whom they fell in love with.
Of course this picture is exagerated, but I've met women who are really longing for true love, although probably not give up anything for it.
So girls, you haven't provided a definite answer to my question, what is a man's role in the relationship in the present times?
I strongly believe that men are indeed becoming dispensible. If a woman is indepndent financially, can look after herself, and doesn't even need a man to concieve, what does she need a man for then?
The third female friend I mention above is also approaching 40 and have decided that if she doesn't meet the right man in the next couple of years, she'll go for artificial insemination.
When I was talking above about men facing a crisis of existence, I wasn't being funny, I'm dead series. I wonder if this is one of the factors contributing to the increase in the numbers of men changing gender (trannies), gays and even metrosexuals. I'm not making a moral judgement here I'm just registering a phenomena and trying to explain its cause.
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So one thing I have learned is I might be prepared to wilt without the sun but I sure am not going to wither without a business. Funny what you come up with when tested
I thought many women would give up everything for true love. At least that's what the media leads us to believe, with all those film characters abandoning their families, wealth etc for some vagabond whom they fell in love with.
Of course this picture is exagerated, but I've met women who are really longing for true love, although probably not give up anything for it.
So girls, you haven't provided a definite answer to my question, what is a man's role in the relationship in the present times?
I strongly believe that men are indeed becoming dispensible. If a woman is indepndent financially, can look after herself, and doesn't even need a man to concieve, what does she need a man for then?
The third female friend I mention above is also approaching 40 and have decided that if she doesn't meet the right man in the next couple of years, she'll go for artificial insemination.
When I was talking above about men facing a crisis of existence, I wasn't being funny, I'm dead series. I wonder if this is one of the factors contributing to the increase in the numbers of men changing gender (trannies), gays and even metrosexuals. I'm not making a moral judgement here I'm just registering a phenomena and trying to explain its cause.
I have a 30 year old neice that is very much like the lady you are talking about and for this younger generation I can understand what you are saying about mens roles. She has a high flying career in the sports world that involves alot of travel and socialising. She rarely has any serious boyfriends because any that she does have eventually try to tie her down and that is the big mistake they make. It's quite common to hear her and her friends talk about having babies without a long term partner especially when the biological clock is ticking. These women will have the financial resource to support a family without a man so yes its a reality that is coming unless men are willing to change.
Personally what I think women want these days is total equality, love, companionship and friendship. I don't think men need to get in touch with their feminine side but they do need to let the macho, leadership role go. Is that possible?
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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I cannot see the benefits of raising a child and not having a long term partner. It is about making choices. When a woman prefers to make carreer in such a way that she is almost unable to find a partner, then that being unable to find a partner, is just a result of the choice she has made. The trouble is, they want it all! But excuse me, when the life-style of a woman makes it impossible to find a partner, I think, at the same time, her life-style won't be the right one to be a mother! High flying carreers, and a lot of traveling and socialising means absence. As a man shall not like the continue absence of his wife, also the child shall not grow up in a normal way when his mummy is away all the time. Arteficial insemination is no solution for this.
And to answer Ramses; I think there is no universal rule concerning the role of the man in a relationship. It depends on both of the partners, as long as they both can agree in how they are living, it's okay!
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Penny: Personally what I think women want these days is total equality, love, companionship and friendship. I don't think men need to get in touch with their feminine side but they do need to let the macho, leadership role go. Is that possible?
I think there's a fundamental difference in how both sexes view this leadership thing. You seem to regard it as a privilege, while men would regard it as a duty. The same with equality, when a woman is said to be equal to a man, it's like a badge of honour. On the other hand when a man is said to be equal to a woman it is said with disdain. That's not the fault of either, it's just how society sets its values. I think this is the case in many societies not just middle-eastern.
Having said all that, I do agree with a lot of what you mention about independant women and how a man doesn't fit in their lifestyle.
Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Questionmarks: I cannot see the benefits of raising a child and not having a long term partner. It is about making choices. When a woman prefers to make carreer in such a way that she is almost unable to find a partner, then that being unable to find a partner, is just a result of the choice she has made. The trouble is, they want it all! But excuse me, when the life-style of a woman makes it impossible to find a partner, I think, at the same time, her life-style won't be the right one to be a mother! High flying carreers, and a lot of traveling and socialising means absence. As a man shall not like the continue absence of his wife, also the child shall not grow up in a normal way when his mummy is away all the time. Arteficial insemination is no solution for this.
And to answer Ramses; I think there is no universal rule concerning the role of the man in a relationship. It depends on both of the partners, as long as they both can agree in how they are living, it's okay!
QM, I totally agree with everything you say (probably a rarity in ES ). I told my friend who wants to go for artificial insemination if she doesn't find the right partner, I told her that that is unfair to the child. Effectively she's depriving the child of a "normal" upbringing with a mummy and a daddy.
Her reply was having one loving parent is better than having two who quarel all the time or who don't get along, or having an abusive father. Of course I replied by saying but why do you assume they won't get along, it is equally possible that it will be a happy family.
I personally think that it is selfish of a woman to do that. Because she wants to fulfil her desire to have a baby, she's being unfair to the child by depriving it of a father.
By the way, that's another option that men don't have, i.e. having a child without a woman. My fellow men, we're going the way of the dinosaur! it's just a matter of when not if Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Penny: I have a 30 year old neice that is very much like the lady you are talking about and for this younger generation I can understand what you are saying about mens roles. She has a high flying career in the sports world that involves alot of travel and socialising. She rarely has any serious boyfriends because any that she does have eventually try to tie her down and that is the big mistake they make. It's quite common to hear her and her friends talk about having babies without a long term partner especially when the biological clock is ticking.
Hmmm...I'm little bit confused, a baby will tie her down, kind of. It's not a prison, not what I mean, but a kid is there to stay, if you're married you can always divorce. You have to slow down with career especially if you have been constantly on the road and travelling a lot.
I mean if her former boyfriends have been opposed to her travelling work - I really don't see how she could continue that if she has small baby or babies. IF she's going to be single mom. I don't think that's fair (depending on how much she travels but I got the feeling that a lot) for kids. Working mother or housewife, both are fine but too much away from home is too much (for a single mom). She should find a man who's willing to stay home with children They exist, but rare species I think!
Posts: 758 | From: Finland | Registered: Jun 2006
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Actually she would adjust her lifestyle completely as she has the option to do freelance sports journalism from home. Funny she will make the change for a baby but not for a man.
This next generation of women really are very different, but so are the men, most won't even consider settling down before 30.
Now as for a man that stays at home this is were we woman are so contrary as for me that is just not a man Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Penny: Now as for a man that stays at home this is were we woman are so contrary as for me that is just not a man
I know what you mean, but it is this kind of ideas that I want to get rid of myself. Like I found myself thinking that I cannot buy a Hello Kitty lamp for my son's room because he is a little boy (ok, so I liked the lamp but he is so tiny, 8 months, so he wouldn't really mind). Then I was a bit dissappointed at myself, because this is a way I do not want to be thinking (boys don't cry...girls always have to behave etc. I hate these!)
SO, if a man WANTS to stay at home (sad world if we can't do what we like), it is fine by me (and well, in Finland this is only 1-3 years of your life then you probably need to go back to work as you need two person's income) and actually that he DOESN'T care what others think, THAT makes him A MAN in my eyes I once had a man that thought too much about others, he was just...well I don't say anything. Goes for anything else as well. Some might think that if a man changes nappies or does something with kids (don't mean playing) or helps in the kitchen he is less of a man. I actually read this from a study, this view doesn't seem to be rare within low income families in CAiro at all. If you do these things you need to at least hide it.
Posts: 758 | From: Finland | Registered: Jun 2006
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.....actually that he DOESN'T care what others think, THAT makes him A MAN in my eyes .......
and perhaps whilst the thought of it seems strange the reality if living it would actually work, as it would just be so good to really share the load with someone you can trust with your child.
So maybe we have found a way forward for RM who is so worried men are becoming redundant, but it will take mothers like yourself to bring their boys up to think differently...good luck Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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^ I'm for the kind of upbringing that a child is an individual and s/he can do whatever s/he likes (regarding hobbies etc, of course otherwise we have rules at home). If a boy likes to play with so called girls' toys it's fine, who am I to say no. And if he cries I won't say that this is what girls do stop it (how he will ever learn how to express all feelings if I deny him of expressing them, sadness in this case). Also kids have right to be angry so I won't punish them for it. And, in Finland anyway, I think it is more accepted that a girl is 'boyish' than a boy is 'girlish'. That's not fair.
At least one thing in Egypt seems to be ok - some men dress extremely well, they take a lot of care of their appearance (which is nice), some seem to even dress a little bit "gay-like" - this would lead a Finnish person (a man most of times) to think (generalisation) "oh he must be gay". Or that men are walking hand in hand.
Posts: 758 | From: Finland | Registered: Jun 2006
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So, when a man doesn't care what others think, it makes him more MAN...only in this subject, or on average?
When a man ( or a woman ) does not care what others think, they are choosing for theirselves, and are not bothered by the opinions of society.
The opinions of society are based on something; culture, religion, tradition but also expierences, you could call it a kind of universal wisdom. At the same time, these common opinions are changing, influenced by what's happening around them. What is a common opinion today can be a historical opinion tomorrow.(Or an old-fashioned one)
A society always is more or less controlled by the common opinion, and everyone who doesn't follow these unwritten laws, is in fact placing personal interests above common interests; collectivism vs individualism.
That individualism is a typical western way of thinking, AND it is on its return! People are expierencing more and more the negative results of individualism and slowly return to a sort of middleway between collectivism and individualism.
Placing personal interests above collective interests firstly always has personal reasons, choosing for yourself is a kind of selfishness.
Women who are willing to make any change for a baby and not for a man, are firstly kind of desperate and not thinking rationally. As I already said, when the life-style of the woman is not suitable for a man, it also won't be suitable to raise up a child. So, when they are willing tochange that life-style because of a baby, and not for a man, I wonder what happened to make her think this way.
We have a special term for it, BOM-mothers ( meaning something like Aware Unmarried Mothers) They have to make decisions in: a. getting a child or child or not b. decide about the identity of the child ( will it know who the father is or not) c. find a way to raise a child and take full responsebility in this
I think the difference is in this, THEY have to take full responsebilty and THEY are the one who make decisions. In a relationship there is shared responsebility and they make decisions together. In some way they don't WANT or are UNABLE to share or cooperate, and thats a result of their expierences.
When a woman has found a man who is good to her, there is no problem about this, they share and cooperate in a natural way. There can be several reasons why a woman didn't reach this point; she can have met the wrong kind of men, she can have a difficult character, etc. They have reached a point that they decided to NOT ALLOW a man change her life. A baby can, but a man can't. With a baby, she still is the one in charge, with a man, she HAS to cooperate and share,which she refuses...
In my opinion that only can be because of: bad expierences in her past OR a totally selfcentered ego.
BTW, Penny, free-lance sports-journalism in combination with the care for a child alone, should make a carreer-switch from international sports to national sports. Totally different levels, and totally different interests by the public. Even the international sportsmen and women change their carreer as soon as they become father or mother, because it's hard to find a balance between the best interest for the children and fulfilling your own personal desires.
Your friend already will have heard the stories about professional sportsplayers moving from around the world all the time, because of their carreer. A baby won't show resistance, but as soon as they reach the age of 8-9, they do not like to move all the time. They never can make friends, because they always have to leave them. They never can attach to a place, to a society, to feel like there is no stability, same as the sporters themselves.
A professional sportsman/woman ALWAYS has a very selfcentered character, a big ego, otherwise they wouldn't be able to practise sports in the way they do. They are totally dedicated to their performance and everybody around has to cooperate in this. They are the kings/queens in their own little kingdoms, the rest are their nationals. The nationals have to do whats needed to make the king shine his excellence above the rest. It's an power-issue.
I think these women also are having power-issues...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by cloudberry: and actually that he DOESN'T care what others think, THAT makes him A MAN in my eyes
wow, that's an extremely interesting point, it never occured to me to look at it this way. But now that you've mentioned it, it does make sense, not that I'd necessarily agree with it, but I can see the rationale behind it. I suppose I lean more towards what QM says about the individual vs the society, but then I believe I'm open minded enough (inspite of what some might think) to accept that people may not agree with it, i.e. QM's explanation.
Girls, I have to say I've enjoyed this discussion, it makes one see things from different perspectives, depending on cultures but also on individual experiences. I suppose it is true indeed that "it takes all sorts". Another good thing about this discussion is that it is mature and respectful. Cheers!
Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Not thinking what others think = I don't mean individualism. If you as a man want to have a feminine hobby, you can have that and it is not away from others. I meant this kind of things. I didn't mean that it is ok to step over other people, that's different thing. This has nothing to do with it at all.
If a man wants to change nappies or clean home, then he should do that and not think what others think of him.
I don't see how anyone could object this.
Like I said I have experience, I had a partner who cared too much of what others thought of him and that lead to neglecting the relationship and that feature annoyed me so much. Won't go into details but a Man (and we are equal here, I mean also women) has to have self confidence.
Posts: 758 | From: Finland | Registered: Jun 2006
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I have expierence too! I have been the one who brought in the major part of income, but it was necessary, because my hb was seriously ill. So, it wasn't a free choice. The reason that I was able to do that, was because my father always putted pressure on me that there might come circumstances that makes it needed to make an income and provide a family.
In that time a staying at home father tht took care of children and doing the housework was rather an exception, and people in first instance thought it was bad for the baby, bad for the marriages and supposedly should bring negative feelings of being useless by my hb.
So, we could also have been choosing for doing it the traditional way, which should mean that we had to live on a social allowance, with all the consequences of that. (uncertain future, for us and the children)
We choosed for another solution, me working, and my hb started to study again, so that he could change his occupation and provide the family in a better way after a few years of study.
He never felt useless ( except perhaps when I grumbled about toys that weren't put away or laundry that wasn't ironed) and later also the people near saw this was a better solution, so no problem.
Right now our children are adult and left the house, and we still are working both. Our lifes and the lifes of our children are a shared responsibility, and they are in balance.
That's the most important: balance. When a woman feels like the balance on the side of her husband weights heavier then hers, it brings negative feelings. (Except the one in the bathroom )
This is partly cultural, because I have been raised with the believe that I should at least share responsibility. My parents were brought up in another way, and in Egypt it still is this way.
But, there are limits, in my opinion. When you are sticking your head above the crowd, you take the risk that it will be cutted off. Not only by the common opinion of society, but by the consequences, in this case the child.
We can only say that it has been right or wrong, if the child is mature and can tell it ourselves...
Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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I do agree with this saying. Being loved can make wonders to a woman and people in general. And it doesn't have to be the love of a man, it could be just love in general from family, friends etc.
I grew up in a very unloving home and so when I married my husband and he was very loving and sweet, it made a big difference to my mentality and just life in general. Even physically I started looking better. In the past few years, people have been telling me that my looks improved a lot and I think that's the effect of the love.
In the last few years before I left Egypt, I made heaps of friends from uni and then work and they also loved me and that love gave me unbelievable confidence and just peace of mind. I was able to have something to help me defend myself emotionally from the attitude at home. So yes the saying is right, without love we would all wilt.
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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It is. Look at the picture of people who are in love, they shine like stars. Look at a mother just after giving birth, etc.etc. People look more beautiful, when they are happy with their lifes. Look at people who are facing problems in their lifes, look at their mouths, their eyes... Feeling beloved indeed makes beautiful...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by cloudberry: SO, if a man WANTS to stay at home (sad world if we can't do what we like), it is fine by me (and well, in Finland this is only 1-3 years of your life then you probably need to go back to work as you need two person's income) and actually that he DOESN'T care what others think, THAT makes him A MAN in my eyes
I agree. A guy who thinks taking care of his kids, changing diapers or any of that makes him less *manly* is an immature weakling imo.
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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In a culture where women proudly carry out that their husbands are modern, allow them to work, allow them to go out alone, allow them to wear what they want, you probably won't meet much men who are staying at home to take care of the children for a number of years. This still is typically western! 50 years ago all western men were immature weaklings then! Were they? Do you think western men changed from immature weaklings into mature men? Of course not! They were just part of a process that changed societies. As my father still asks coffee to my mother (because making coffee is a women's job), my husbands make his own coffee but can't iron a shirt, my son does it all. He is doing it all, because we teached him to do it all. But they are all mature men, taking responsebility for what has been teached to them...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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I know, but NOW in Egypt is kind of what it was in Europe 50 years ago.
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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