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Originally posted by Dzosser:
You'll need to buy a small Chinese car, unless you're willing to use public transportation like SQ, an ESer we used to have here once upon a time, and left us

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I have used public transport with SQ and I found it to be just fine, I was more nervous crossing the road!

Posts: 1917 | From: WALES | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by The Ministry of Common Sense:

No need to worry about knowing too much Arabic. I have not spoken a word of Arabic in the year I have lived here.

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Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by * 7ayat *:

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Originally posted by The Ministry of Common Sense:

No need to worry about knowing too much Arabic. I have not spoken a word of Arabic in the year I have lived here.

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And you are proud of yourself for that?

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Posts: 1626 | From: whatever, wherever | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by * 7ayat *:
Yeah but that's the point. It is disrespectful to live in a country without bothering to learn the language. I've seen a lot of expats go to Egypt and live not only for years, but sometimes decades without taking the time to learn the language. How can you people stand it? I don't think I would have survived in Australia, if I didn't speak English. The language does not only help you communicate but makes it easier to make friends and also to learn about the culture, because much of a country's culture is in its language.

Your advice is quite dangerous. People should be encouraged to learn Arabic, not told that they shouldn't bother. It is sad that you think this way.

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Posts: 1626 | From: whatever, wherever | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by The Ministry of Common Sense:
It's more disprectful to insult someone's intelligence and butcher their language pretending you can speak it when they themselves already speak yours.

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Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by *Dalia*:
I am always surprised when people say they get around in Cairo without speaking Arabic because I always felt that's almost impossible, or at least very tedious.

During my first months here when I only spoke a little bit of classical Arabic I felt severely handicapped. Everything -- from buying household stuff to taking taxis was a nightmare for me. And I absolutely hated the feeling of having no idea what people around me were saying. I felt deaf and mute.

Of course upper class Egyptians and maybe even most shopkeepers in Maadi speak English. But in other areas that's not the case. During all my time in Cairo I have encountered very, very few taxi drivers who speak English. And in most cases taxi drivers don't know the way so you have to explain it to them which is not possible if you speak no Arabic. Not to mention the fact that being able to communicate with them in their language usually saves you from being ripped off.

My landlord, the plumber, electrician, cleaning lady, tailor, bauwab, ... none of them speaks any English. And I would hate having to ask friends to come and translate every time I need to communicate with any of those people.

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Posts: 1626 | From: whatever, wherever | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by The Ministry of Common Sense:
I did not say that I don't know how to speak Arabic. I said that I have had no need to.

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Originally posted by The Ministry of Common Sense:
Waiters in restaurants (except when I lived in Alex) always begin the conversation with me in English - which is my cue to continue it in English.

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I'm the opposite, if they address me in English, I'll continue in Arabic. Same thing in banks, stores etc.

Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by *Dalia*:
[QUOTE]I wasn't suggesting you don't know any Arabic. It was the fact that you said you don't need it to get around in daily life that surprised me, since my own experiences are so different.

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Posts: 1626 | From: whatever, wherever | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by The Ministry of Common Sense:
The funny thing is when my husband and I go out together (even in Maadi) the waiters look at him and ask him if he speaks Arabic.

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A little while ago I had an Egyptian friend over and we ordered food. When the delivery guy came, my friend insisted on opening the door and paying for the food. But since it was my foreign name on the receipt, the delivery guy spoke to him in English, which I found hilarious since my friend looks very Egyptian / Arabic.

Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by The Ministry of Common Sense:
If you want to attempt to learn how to read and write (which is not as hard as you would think) then I recommend a book called Alif Baa available from Georgetown University Press. It comes with DVD's and guides you step by step through the writing process. This is the best book for someone who wants to be able to teach themselves instead of enrolling in an expensive course.

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Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by The Ministry of Common Sense:

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Originally posted by * 7ayat *:
Yeah but that's the point. It is disrespectful to live in a country without bothering to learn the language. I've seen a lot of expats go to Egypt and live not only for years, but sometimes decades without taking the time to learn the language. How can you people stand it? I don't think I would have survived in Australia, if I didn't speak English. The language does not only help you communicate but makes it easier to make friends and also to learn about the culture, because much of a country's culture is in its language.

Your advice is quite dangerous. People should be encouraged to learn Arabic, not told that they shouldn't bother. It is sad that you think this way.

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99.99% of Egyptians are speaking in English themselves. Cairo is full of International Schools and 100% of teaching is done in English. You did not have to start learning English after you moved to Australia - you had to know it before you went. You have probably been speaking English since you were in KG1.

English is the Universal language of communication.

Besides that I don't come into contact with many Egyptians and the ones I do speak to me in English before I would even have a chance to utter a word of Arabic.

It's not disrespectful not to learn a language when you live in another country. It's more disprectful to insult someone's intelligence and butcher their language pretending you can speak it when they themselves already speak yours. And it is only disrespectful if I would demand to be spoken to in English by those who can't speak it.

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Seriously, how can 99.99% of Egyptians speak English when 60% of them can't even read or write? I mean I would be proud if so many Egyptians spoke English, because having multiple languages is great, but I just don't think so. I would be surprised if people in the countryside towns, like Shobra Kheima for example, spoke English.

And yes English is the universal language and there are international schools etc. But that doesn't mean that it has become Egypt's national language. We still speak Arabic, it is still considered our native tongue, which is great. Wouldn't it be boring if the entire world spoke English? As I said, much of the culture is in the language. Not knowing the language, means that you will never understand the culture.

If I were you I would try and take some Arabic classes.

Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by The Ministry of Common Sense:
When I worked at the school we were forbidden to speak one word of Arabic on the campus.

My assistant was a young Egyptian girl who had grown up in Qatar. She could speak Egyptian Arabic, but could not read or write Arabic.

I believe that if things continue the way the are with education in Egypt - Arabic will soon die out in many segments of life here.

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Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by * 7ayat *:

quote:

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Originally posted by The Ministry of Common Sense:
When I worked at the school we were forbidden to speak one word of Arabic on the campus.

My assistant was a young Egyptian girl who had grown up in Qatar. She could speak Egyptian Arabic, but could not read or write Arabic.

I believe that if things continue the way the are with education in Egypt - Arabic will soon die out in many segments of life here.

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What you don't understand is that you are dealing with a minority. These international schools are bloody expensive and very very few Egyptians can afford them. So, no English is not overtaking Arabic at all.

Although I have to admit, I am not happy with the way Egyptians treat their own language. I mean I can't imagine what would happen in Australia, if a French school, for example told the Aussie students that they are not allowed to speak a word of English. It would be a scandal I reckon.

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Yes, the International Schools are expensive. But they are also full of Egyptian students. I have interviewed at and toured enough of them to know. And each time I walk away thinking "Who are all these people who can afford 30,000 LE per year for each child and where in the HELL are they working?" Sure it's a status thing and that's what Egyptians want. They would rather spend the money to send their kids to intenational schools if they have it, than to save the money and send them to a school with a lesser reputation (but equal education.)

Let me tell you I am so disguisted with what goes on in these schools that I have given up the thought that I will teach here in Egypt again. All my friends are foreign teachers and none can stand to teach in Egypt. Various reasons which I shall not get into here.

But I even have a friend who works at what could be considered a National level school - and it is the same thing. In her KG1 class - not a word of Arabic is to be uttered by the foreign teacher. The assistants can speak Arabic to them because of their age and level. But they are encouraged to communicate only in English.

If this trend continues - it will take years, maybe decades - but Egypt will be full of people who can speak English fluently as their first language, and speak Arabic at home with the older members of the family. But they won't be able to read or write Arabic. Just like what happened with second generation immigrants to the US from Italy, Germany, Spain, etc. The native language will die out. And Egypt continues to build and open International schools at alarming (and IMO unnecessary) levels.

The point is people are doing whatever they can to enroll their kids in these schools even if it means they have to sell their blood. (An American idiom.)

Second of all I do not need to take an Arabic class. If you read the previous posts - you would know that I have learned Arabic. Without trying to speak at a level that would allow me to translate for the United Nations (which would take years of serious committment) I have exposed myself to as much Arabic as my little brain is going to be able to hold.

If you read above, you will see that I used Alif Baa and Al Kitaab to teach myself to read and write, used Pimsleur CD for conversational skills and to learn how to ask someone if they want a drink. I carry my copy of Lonely Planet Egyptian Arabic in my purse. And last but not least, I am married to an Egyptian man so I have a built in tutor/translator.

And this even started years before I even thought about moving to Egypt. The real reason I started to learn Arabic in 2005 was because I was working in an IHOP that was owned by an Egyptian with lots of Egyptians working as cooks. I got interested in the language from working with them.

As far as the 99.99% of Egyptians who speak English - you obviously don't understand sarcasm. But that's ok a high percentage (and I won't put a number on it) of Egyptians don't understand sarcasm either.

Like I said before, I live in MAADI. I go out by myself all the time within Maadi. I very rarely encounter someone who does not speak English. I also don't use taxis frequently. In the year I have been here I have only been inside a taxi like 10 times and 3 or them were with City Cab. (I'm sure you will jump all over me for that too, and say I need to use taxis in Egypt more ). But if I need to I can give my address and directions in Arabic.

I understand what is being said in basic exchanges and know enough to get by when I have to.

Maybe the problem is I need to get out of Maadi more - not take an Arabic class.

Khalas. Mashi. Lazim yanni keda?

Posts: 1626 | From: whatever, wherever | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by * 7ayat *:
You know MOCS, I was actually going to respond to some of the points you raised about the Egyptian education and obsession with English etc. I was enjoying your post and was actually going to discuss some of the issues that you raised which I thought were important.

That is until, I got to the point where you said that 99% of Egyptians don't understand sarcasm and then I just changed my mind. That was an offensive remark, just like not needing to speak Arabic in an Arab country was an offensive remark, just like your obvious glee that Arabic will die was an offensive remark (and also incorrect, because with the poverty rates in Egypt there is no chance in hell the majority of Egyptians will be able to send their kids to these schools, regardless of how many are built). You are rude and arrogant. You look down on Egyptians and our culture and you have no clue what the hell you are talking about. The 99% remark was not sarcastic, you meant it. You only used sarcasm to cover your ignorance of our culture.

And what's up with the generalizations. 99% of Egyptians are this 99% of Egyptians are that. Did you meet every single Egyptian or what?

So talking to you is like talking to a bors on the wall, useless. If you don't feel the need to speak Arabic in Egypt, then bloody don't! And feel free to go teach somewhere else, a thousand Egyptian olas will be smashed after you!

Now honey, be very careful when you respond to this post because 99.99% of Egyptian women have a temper and do not give up until they've kicked idiots like you to the curb.

Now 99.99% salams!!!

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See now you're starting to get it.

Calm down, please you've got me all wrong. It's what happens when we have to read words someone has written without ever having spoken to them. We miss out on the expression and body language that goes along with what is being said as well as the intricate aspects of that person's personality that form and shape us.

Anyway. Please do not put words in my mouth. I am not expressing "glee" that Arabic will die out. I am simply stating an observation. Of course, I am addressing the segment of the population that has their children enrolled in schools in Cairo. I am not talking about the Delta region or upper Egypt, or even the poor areas of Cairo and Alex where obviously, there is a different way of life.

But what I'm talking about is what will happen generation after generation with the particular class of people who are sending their children to these schools. When these kids grow up they will either leave Egypt, or will in turn send their own kids to similar type schools and so on and so on. If this trend continues, a majority will communicate (and already do) with their parents in English at home as well instead of Arabic.

I asked my students that as an activity once. What language do you speak at home. Quite a few said English but they speak Arabic with their grandparents. Quite a few had lived outside of Egypt for a while though. They were all Egyptian but had spent time in the Gulf. I had one student (I taught 2nd grade) that had lived in Kuwait for years. His father came to me and said his son had been attending a British school in Kuwait and has never had one Arabic class. His son could not speak or write Arabic. The only thing this boy knew how to do in Arabic was pray.

Anyway, I'm not a teacher. I was one of those blondes that got hired by the school so they could claim to have foreigners. Of course, once I got on the inside I could see better what was going on and I did not like it. They were using me to exploit the Egyptian teachers and assistants. I had to keep my mouth shut while my assistant who was a certified teacher in Egypt made a salary of peanuts as an assistant and I (who does not even have a college degree) got to claim the title of class teacher.

I was miserable, but determined to try to finish out the year for the sake of the children who really liked me and I liked them. But I got fired after only a few months when an administrator who had also gotten fired leaked to the parents of my students that I had only a high school education and a TEFL certificate.

It was quite fine by me and that ended my 3 month teaching career

Yes, I know many Egyptians. I love Egypt. So much so that over the last year that my husband has been begging me to consider moving to Abu Dhabi I fight him tooth and nail every time.

I really can't see why you hold it against me the fact that so many people in Egypt can speak English, thus leaving me without the need to speak Arabic. How is this reflecting on me and suddenly making it that I am refusing to speak Arabic. Egyptians just happen to have more exposure to language in the education system that Americans do (English, French, German, etc. starting from a young age). Taking a foreign language in the States is an elective and not required and would not begin until grade 9 or above. The older you are when you begin to learn a language, the harder it is to learn.

Instead of turning me into the bad guy - you should be proud of all the working class Egyptians who speak English well enough to make my stay in Egypt enjoyable.

It is also not my fault that many jobs in Egypt are asking for fluency in English from its Egyptian applicants. Many job advertisements that I have seen don't even care if the person can speak Arabic - as long as they are fluent in English.

Posts: 1626 | From: whatever, wherever | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Dzosser:
Mini is the British International School, Cairo not International ?
http://www.bisc.edu.eg/nschool/welcome.php

They have one annexed to the All Saints Cathedral in Zamalek. Hope its still there as I haven't strolled there for quite some time.

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My husband has a friend who teaches for BISC. Actually not sure about the Zamalek location but I do know that they are now moved to a location in 6th of October. That is the one she teaches at.

The "fake" International schools I am talking about are the ones like: Smart International School, Futures International School, New Generations International School, New Horizon International School, etc. They are not associated with a particular curriculum of a particular foreign country. They just throw the word International behind some catchy name.


They do offer American diploma, or IGCSE and may follow AERO standards and other international standards. But they are not a true international school in the sense that they are for the children of ex-pats and extremely rich people. This is what the term "International School" used to mean when British and American schools began springing up in the 30's and 40's in foreign countries around the world.

The best school name I have seen in Egypt so far and the one that gets the prize is:

The Wiseness School

Wiseness LOL

Posts: 1626 | From: whatever, wherever | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Dzosser:
Mini, this was my school in the sixties I graduated 1968..

http://www.esc-obog.org/index.htm

I'm told nothing English remains today.

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You graduated the year after I was born.

You are probably right about that. Nothing remains the same, yet the more things change the more they stay the same.

Here is a propaganda promotional video from my former place of employment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sy0pYxUG8Bk

(Notice it states strong bi-lingual education. The kids had 45 minutes of Arabic per day. 90 minutes of English classes. And Math, Science and Social Studies all taught in ENGLISH. So how is that balanced? And rule #1 of the school is no speaking in Arabic except during Arabic class or during prayer time.)

Posts: 1626 | From: whatever, wherever | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by The Ministry of Common Sense:
I believe that CAC - Cairo American College has the highest enrollment of actual ex-pat children (as well as extremely wealthy Egyptians). That is where Mubarak's grandson was going. They have the highest tuition. But they have the best reputation. They are the only true International school in Egypt.

The others are simply Egyptian/Islamic schools that threw the word "INTERNATIONAL" into their name, hired a few foreign teachers, put a pool on the campus and charge outrageous fees. But the parents are eating it up.

They don't mind putting their 5 year old on a bus (which they pay extra for as well) at 6 am in Mohandiseen and have him commute all the way to the 26th Kilometer on Cairo Ismalia Road. A commute that can take 2 hours in the morning and up to 3 in the afternoon. Their kids are so exhausted they can barely keep their eyes open. They get to school starving but are denied to eat anything until the designated lunch time which is still 6 hours away. They do work from photocopies because there are no textbooks even though the parents have been charged extra for books. If there were any books they would be from 20 years ago. Then at 3 pm they get back on the bus for another stressful commute.

This is so hard on these kids. What's even harder is the age at which Egyptian students start school. KG1 is 3 years old. In the States there is pre-school but it is optional.

But the funny thing is even in all these (FOREIGN COUNTRY) International schools you will find only Egyptian students. I worked for a short time at a Canadian school as well. Not one Canadian.

Some of the schools are better than others and follow the curriculum from their host country or have certifications from it. And many of them take the hiring of teachers seriously, where they require teachers to hold certification in the host country.

But too many of them are just simply lavish buildings (built to impress no doubt) that throw the word International into their name - like Smart International School, for example. They hire a few blondes to make it look like they have foreign teachers. In reality they prefer to hire Egyptians so they can pay Egyptian teachers salaries instead of foreign. The entire administration changes at least once a year, sometimes more. The teaching staff changes frequently. Sometimes one class alone can go through two or three teachers in a 9 month period.

They compete with each other like crazy by running full page ads in magazines showing pictures of smiling happy children (they don't show the ones who have fallen asleep in class). But they are all in business for one thing. Making money. The education comes second.

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Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged |