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I have been upbraided for sitting on the fence on animal issues. And yes, I know, I'm just another soppy ex-pat who should worry more about people's woes than animals woes.
Nonetheless, I continue:
I just heard tonight about a friend of a friend living nearby whose wonderful pet dog - well-trained, well-behaved, was murdered in it's own garden with poisoned meat.
I have also seen on a closed group for the area where I live educated, professional Egyptians advocating the shooting or poisoning of dogs who are just barking - nothing more.
Now, I know barking dogs can be annoying, but this murdered pet dog was not much of a barker. And in any case is there not a better solution than murder?
Can someone please explain the justification for this?
I do not buy at all the argument I often hear made that "you foreigners should worry about the treatment of people here not the animals".
In what way does cruelty to animals advance the condition of the people here?
In my view, by learning to treat those animals who are dependent on us kindly, (and those creatures like donkeys who actually help people survive with their businesses) this would begin to permeat the society and encourage better treatment of people all round. Ill-treatment of animals is symptomatic of a sickness in society.
Now before you all jump on top of me, I am not a vegetarian and I accept that makes me a hypocrite in terms of that. However, until the time comes when an animal 'must' be killed - for whatever reason is deemed necessary - it should be treated kindly.
I have seen photos and videos in the past two days of some horrific sights of animals being kept in very poor conditions in the run up to Eid, and of animals who have not been killed quickly suffering tortuous deaths.
About a year or so ago, I was walking down Haram St with a friend when we witnessed a yellow taxi run into a horse pulling a cart. The horse was staggering about bleeding profusely from its chest while the guys were arguing with the taxi driver. The poor thing was driven off down a side-street STILL with it's cart on and two guys sat on the cart as WELL and started whipping it!! My god that was barbaric.
How does THIS improve the lot of the people in society?
How does CRUELTY to animals improve the PEOPLE? It doesn't. Full stop.
How does killing painfully a well-behaved non-dangerous pet improve the PEOPLE? It doesn't. Full stop.
It is not part of Islam - I am told that the Koran explicitly requires animals to be treated well. So what, pray, is the reason?
And yes, I hereby fully acknowledge that cruelty to animals exists in all corners of the globe including little old Blighty. However, when it happens in Britain, at least the people have enough shame to do it undercover of darkness, here there is no shame in it and having seen the random acts of violence against cats, dogs, goats, donkeys all around, we see it in all it's glory.
And yes, ps, I know we have our own issues with battery farming etc in the West. And yes I know there are moral questions raised over the concept of vegetarianism in societies where there is limited agricultural land - noone's perfect when it comes to food production. However, I am mainly focused on the point of wanton violence and cruelty to animals here.
Posts: 5593 | From: Egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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It was my German friends who lost their pet dog in this way and they are heartbroken. This is supposed to be a compound with educated people living here, not saidis
How can this kind of behaviour be acceptable? I cannot believe how angry I feel.
Posts: 588 | From: an oasis near the pyramids | Registered: Oct 2005
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My thoughts exactly, Shanta, can't add much.
The indifference, callousness and contempt that so many people exhibit toward animals is evil first because it results in great suffering in animals, and second because it results in an incalculably great impoverishment of the human spirit. All education should be directed toward the refinement of the individual's sensibilities in relation not only to one's fellow humans everywhere, but to all things whatsoever.
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Sometimes dogs barking all night could be a pain in the ass, specially if they take shifts on every single night under your bedroom window. Posts: 3219 | From: Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone. | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Shanta Qadeama: It is not part of Islam - I am told that the Koran explicitly requires animals to be treated well. So what, pray, is the reason?
quote:Originally posted by Shanta Qadeama: I have been upbraided for sitting on the fence on animal issues. And yes, I know, I'm just another soppy ex-pat who should worry more about people's woes than animals woes.
Don't feel guilty about feeling like that. Animals don't have a voice. Consider getting involved with an animal rights group over there.
.الحيوانات لها حقوقها ايضا
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: Sometimes dogs barking all night could be a pain in the ass, specially if they take shifts on every single night under your bedroom window.
I think kids out playing and screaming below my bedroom window at 2 and 3am is also a pain in the arse, should I get poison sweets to give them too? Should I invite for poisoned tea the men honking horns and playing loud music at all hours of the night?
It amazes me, as an expat, that ALL kinds of noise ALL through the night are completely ignored by Egyptians. Its ok to be drilling holes at 3am, its ok to let your kids scream their lungs out all night, its acceptable that people are phoning at all hours of the night, but dogs barking oh no! kill it.
I fully agree with shanta. Animals are SUPPOSED to be treated with kindness and respect ESPECIALLY the animals that are providing transport, food, and are work PARTNERS to man. In this country I have witnessed some of the most appauling treatment of animals ever in my life! I have even known expats take the whip from the caleche man and beat him with it because of how he treated his horse, the horse that provided his living! Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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Ayisha - you must live near where I live, cuz I have the same rude people living here too. the beepers, the kids screaming at 3 am, the drillers, the phoners, the loud music, etc. I wanna shoot em all. Been thinking recently that the egyptian population must be semi-deaf. We had workers living in an unoccupied apt across the street, and they would beep their trucks and play music or whatever at all hours, until 1 day, when my hubby had enuf of them, and went out and screamed bloody hell, and threatened them into oblivion, and they are so quiet now, its wild ! wanna have him go all over and straighten out the whole lot of em around here.
But don't wanna hi-jack the thread, and back to the dog situation. Had a student that owned a german shepherd, and trained this shepherd not to take any food from anyone but him. He bought some meat, sprinkled some hot sauce on it, and gave it to some street kids and men, explained that they should feed the dog, and the dog yelped, and after the 4th piece - wouldn't touch it anymore. I thought that was cruel, until I thought about it, then thought...smart. Too bad that he had to do that, but it worked. He says that he reinforces it every so often.
and I agree - how animals are treated here drives me up the wall. damn glad that Eid is over !!!
Posts: 1103 | From: 6th of October | Registered: Jun 2007
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That's a great idea actually JB that your student had. I think the situation we had here though was meat left in the garden? Is it possible to train dogs (and cats!) not to eat from anything except a food bowl? I don't know - I'm not the greatest animal trainer in the world save for making sure my two kitties won't go to strangers. (We used to have people in Walthamstow in London where I lived who used to go round randomly killing cats with air-rifles for fun).
Posts: 5593 | From: Egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Shanta Qadeama: It is not part of Islam - I am told that the Koran explicitly requires animals to be treated well. So what, pray, is the reason?
IGNORANCE
I thought that too when I lived in Upper Egypt, now I live in Cairo in a compound with 'educated people', nothing seems to have changed. Posts: 588 | From: an oasis near the pyramids | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: Sometimes dogs barking all night could be a pain in the ass, specially if they take shifts on every single night under your bedroom window.
I think kids out playing and screaming below my bedroom window at 2 and 3am is also a pain in the arse, should I get poison sweets to give them too? Should I invite for poisoned tea the men honking horns and playing loud music at all hours of the night?
It amazes me, as an expat, that ALL kinds of noise ALL through the night are completely ignored by Egyptians. Its ok to be drilling holes at 3am, its ok to let your kids scream their lungs out all night, its acceptable that people are phoning at all hours of the night, but dogs barking oh no! kill it.
I fully agree with shanta. Animals are SUPPOSED to be treated with kindness and respect ESPECIALLY the animals that are providing transport, food, and are work PARTNERS to man. In this country I have witnessed some of the most appauling treatment of animals ever in my life! I have even known expats take the whip from the caleche man and beat him with it because of how he treated his horse, the horse that provided his living!
Good point Ayisha. I have just been told it is perfectly legal to buy poison from the pharmacy and kill any dog that you like in Egypt.
Also it seems acceptable for mothers to let their children sit in the car and beep the horn for what seems like an eternity. I find that annoying too.
Posts: 588 | From: an oasis near the pyramids | Registered: Oct 2005
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I have managed to finally sleep through the mosque loud speakers, but if anyone is looking for a new apartment, make sure it is nowhere near a SCHOOL. I didn't realize I have 2 schools a few blocks over from my street. Far away enough you would think, but the favorite breakfast stop every morning starting at 7:00am for 1,000 students is right under my bedroom window. They take over the whole street which means traffic is jammed and then all the cars are beeping their horns nonstop. And why do these kids have to fight, yell and scream ? Why can't they just pick up their food and go to school ? Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
It doesn't seem to worry anybody in my building except me and I wonder how do the people on the first few floors ever get any sleep ? Have tried to contact the schools,the owner of the building and bowab and they all think I'm nuts.
Posts: 62 | Registered: Sep 2009
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ahhh yes the schools. When I first moved into this flat I wondered what the hell was the noise at 8am every morning. The shouting through a microphone the singing and the Egyptian national anthem, which to me always sounds like something Scotish with bagpipes. I think we have 3 schools near us, and 3 mosques but thank God the wailing man has stopped calling the prayer.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Dexter: I have managed to finally sleep through the mosque loud speakers, but if anyone is looking for a new apartment, make sure it is nowhere near a SCHOOL.
I used to live in an apartment next to a public school and surrounded by seven mosques with speaker systems in various stages of deterioration. Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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If basic human rights don't even exist in Egypt, you'd be naive to believe that animal rights would ever fly Shanta. Posts: 3219 | From: Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone. | Registered: Nov 2005
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Shanta ain't naive; she's very well aware of that fact. Infact all of us are.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: If basic human rights don't even exist in Egypt, you'd be naive to believe that animal rights would ever fly Shanta.
These are two different things entirely.
The phrase "human rights" usually relates to rights laid down in law - freedom of speech, right to a good education, these sorts of things. These require government actions. In the UK when it comes to 'animal rights' we have a stack of laws about 'animal movements' ie how they can be transported around the country in big quantities - lorry sizes all this kind of things. We have laws about punishments that can be meted out for unwarranted cruelty to animals. Those are things that require government action.
What we are talking about here regarding animal rights are the choices made every single day by individuals on how they will treat another creature (animal or human) in their interactions.
It beggars belief that people cannot see that a tethered animal requires food and water and to give it. This does NOT need a government intervention just 2 seconds thought on the part of a human mind to think 'if that were me I would need food and water'. Just one simple decision made by one single individual. Very little money necessary.
It beggars belief that people cannot see that a horse that has been run into by a taxi requires its cart removing, the calling of a vet and some tender care, not ladening it still higher with the weight of two people and whipping it. Just 2 seconds thought on the part of an individual human mind to think 'if that were me I would need attention of a doctor and some relief from pain and rest to recover from shock'. Just one simple decision made by one single individual. Yes, a vet's fee necessary but I found out later that Brook would send out a vet immediately if we had known about them and got details.
It beggars belief that people cannot see that an animal that has been 'killed' for whatever reason - food or ritual or religion - is still alive, in agony, and should be put out of its misery as swiftly as possible. No government intervention necessary just 2 seconds thought on the part of an individual human mind - "if that were me, I would want someone to put me out of my misery quickly."
It beggars belief that people think they need a government to tell them how to treat other animals or people in one-one interactions.
And this is why I believe that if individuals started to consider all their interactions at the most fundamental 'rights' level of - let me put a little agenda together here:
- right to drinking water - right to basic food supply - right to pain relief - right to shelter - right to a swift and painless death whereever possible
At most times there is no reason why this agenda cannot be followed. We are not talking about a drought or famine situation here where noone has enough drinking water. Maybe out in the desert, but we're talking towns and cities here.
We are talking about how YOU as an INDIVIDUAL CHOOSE from the basic moral code (and face it - all 3 of the Abrahamic religions - Jewish, Christian or Islamic, request good treatment of animals) to look at another creature and see if YOU as an INDIVIDUAL can alleviate it's suffering.
No government necessary.
And this is why I believe that a change in attitude at the individual level - unseen, unrewarded, tiny acts of kindness to other creatures would permeate up through and improve society - no government action necessary.
I know Egyptians can do this - I have said before, when I travel around on the buses I see myriads of tiny acts of kindness going on around me,with just a smile and a thanks as 'reward'. It just requires that little extra 2 seconds thought in any situation to think 'is there any suffering going on around me and can I help that creature right now, unobtrusively and without a big show'. (And no, I'm not perfect on that score either. But if everyone did it even 2 days out of 7 imagine the difference).
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brill rant shanta and I fully agree with what you're saying, the problem is the word 'think' which too many dont bother with! They only 'think' about themselves and sod everyone else.
I gobsmacks me that this is supposed to be an islamic country and 'us' Muslims bang on about how Islam brought more 'rights' to this that and the other when its glaringly obvious this does NOT happen in reality, its just one more bit of lip service.
If there is justice then these arseholes will be ridden hard, deprived of food and water and beaten daily on the 'other side' BY the animals they mistreat.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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Just one point here I'd like to point out and make clear...animals like cows, sheep, goats, chicken bla bla..all edible for meat in any Islamic country must be slaughtered in that same fashion from the front by the neck from ear to ear, then left to drain out the blood, during this period of kicking and jumping around the animal/bird is clinically dead since the brain's blood supply to the sense centres has been shut off, hence it cannot by any chance feel a damn thing. This takes a few minutes for the heart to stop pumping the blood so as to drain it out, then we (Jews/Muslims) can eat Kosher/Halal meat (blood free) since we cannot eat any meat that's died by drowning, strangling or lethal electric shock ( much less messy than slaughtering) because it must've suffered a great deal before death and that is what is Haram..
This of course is with the only exception of hunting for food (anything fit for eating, except those with claws and fangs).
So basically killing animals for food during rituals or religious occasions in both Judaism and Islam, is done in a civilized manner painless to the animal, in my opinion.
Now concerning anything else regarding brutality and negligence I totally agree, we've got no code of ethics when dealing with both humans and animals when they're alive and kicking.
Posts: 3219 | From: Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone. | Registered: Nov 2005
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brill rant shanta and I fully agree with what you're saying
Ditto.
quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: So basically killing animals for food during rituals or religious occasions in both Judaism and Islam, is done in a civilized manner painless to the animal
Correction. It SHOULD be done in a civilized and painless manner, but reality, unfortunately, is often different.
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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If slaughter houses had windows there would be more vegetarians in the world....
I personally am opposed to the killing of animals fullstop. How can people use the words 'kill' and 'humanely' in a sentence astounds me. Isn't murder murder???
Imagine my defence in court for killing my husband and pleading it was humanely done!!! Murder.
Dzosser, I know folk who have holidayed in Egypt and have stated to me they would never eat Halal meat through their principals... ignorant buggers came here and had Big Macs lol...
I am dead against animal cruelty, sadly one person on my FB was more concerned with venting his views online as opposed to opening his door and facing the people who annoyed him so much...
I am sure his day at the PC changed the world!!
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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I oppose the acts of brutal animal killings just for the fun of game, killing bulls in a bull fight or shooting peaceful ducks and birds in general, shooting deers, wild boars, lions or even elephants for their tusks, killing whales for their liver, sharks for their fins etc etc..unless there's no other means of finding a decent meal. Posts: 3219 | From: Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone. | Registered: Nov 2005
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Fox hunting, badger baiting... there are many 'sports' which anger the majority. Many of these pastimes are carried out by the educated and wealthy. Bloodsports are vile.
I know a Spanish girl here whose job is to sooth the animal before it is murdered. I told her that her job baffles, disgraces and pleases me all in one fell swoop. The theory is stressed animals produce a different tasting meat. I personally do not know if this is true or not as I am no meat conniseur.
I lived in a country that ate dogs and road kill... at the end of the day the folk were starving and survival instincts prevail.
Animal cruelty is disgusting... and I am glad I have had the chance to teach 2 of the local kids how to handle and appreciate animals. The luckiest lil orphan street kitten is now tamed and happy as a proverbial pig in muck
I may have not changed the world but I have changed two childrens views and hopefully they will remember and share what I have shown them... signing an e-petition couldn't have done that.
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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Balady people rarely have any sympathy for dogs, that's why whenever the dog sees them they growl and chase them off, they've got a feeling those dudes mean trouble so let's scare the shite outa them, dogs by instinct feel who loves/hates them.
Balady people who've become 'nouveaux riches' Egyptian society, fancy showing off their money by buying little white dogs (usually Griffons or Caniches or mixed) simply to prove they're sophisticated and that dogs actually like them, all their dogs are named 'poppsy'. just to say the letter P out loud in public. Posts: 3219 | From: Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone. | Registered: Nov 2005
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Just to be clear for anyone who didn't get through to the end of my posts, I for one have not used the words kill and humanely in a sentence (and believe me, I have just searched my posts to make sure I didn't!)
I will be honest and say I am not 100% clear on the requirements of kosher/halal slaughter other than that whereas most slaughtered animals in the UK are stunned (and thereby rendered unconscious for the rest of the slaughter act), those for kosher/halal purposes are not and that the UK has considered a ban on these methods of slaughter several times in the past few years, and that while a quick, clean cut to the throat should be administered, often that cut - done by the less experienced butchers - often is not.
I will make a point of finding out what the current thinking on the practices is (from both sides of the proverbial fence) and write it up at some point.
I do not think we should focus on the food-slaugher aspect of this issue though. And as I've said, the fact that I am not a vegetarian makes me, to some extent, hypocritical in this matter), it is the quality of life / quality of death issues that are more in question here.
It's exactly right what you have done with those two children CF and I know others trying to do similar - capturing the minds of the young - and (a) does go along with the 'what can I do in my immediate environment to make things better' and (b) actually is sort of related to an idea I have had burning in the back of my head for sometime now, but it's a huge project and I need to figure out how to go about it - money, influence whatever.
Signing an e-petition may not be of direct help, but 'agitprop' has a role to play in raising consciousness. Our FB friend's rants did bring me to the conclusion that I needed to decide where I stand on this issue, what my fundamental views are and what these boil down to in my mind - which are the 5 'rights' I put higher up which do not require any government interventions, no big organisations, just what single individuals can do.
Posts: 5593 | From: Egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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I think we are opening up some good debates here and I have a few topics I would like to do in separate threads related to this.
One of the things I would like to consider is the way arguments are often presented as 'either / or' instead of 'both'. For example, "If you care about the treatment of animals, you don't care about the treatment of children'
But, I am tired out of my head after the past 5 days, my eyes are bobbling around in my head from computer-strain, and I am planning to be offline til Wednesday just incase anyone thinks I'm running away and hiding.
Posts: 5593 | From: Egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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I think a number of folks are missing the point about animal slaughter here.
Major difference every single one of you fail to notice is during the Eid animals are slaughtered in the street in most of Egypt versus a slaughter house.
Most of the posters in this thread are from Europe or UK, where animal slaughter doesn't happen in front of people who then eat the animals.
I have been in a slaughter house and the noise is deafening.
Just because the animal is proded with a electrical voltage high enough to render them unconscious doesn't mean they are dead when the slaughtering begins. Electrical prods just paralyzes the animal so they don't fight back when they are being cut apart.
And Dozzer just because the animal doesn't have a constant and sufficient blood stream to the brain and heart doesn't mean the animal is technically dead nor feeling.
Ask anyone who has suffered an injury which over 20% blood loss, the organs are indeed damaged but they do recover and it is extremely painful. Its just that in Egypt if an injured human losses that much blood there is little incentive to save that person, there isn't enough blood in the blood bank nor medical knowledge/practice to save that person. In the west people do survive such injuries and the emotional effects and long term recovery effects are enormous from blood loss.
So in effect the electric prod just makes it easier for humans to slaughter animals, doesn't make the suffering any less than slaughtering animals in egypt.
Western animal slaughtering is jut done in remote areas with soundproof factories with foreign undocumented workers who don't shoot videos from vidcams hidden in their helmets.
Animals suffer just as much during slaughtering in Egypt as they do in the west, its just in the west you don't see it unless you are a dark skinned foreigner who is most likely undocumented.
As for beating working animals there isn't an excuse. I have seen my communist hippy farmer uncle near beat an animal to death and then had to euthanize it. It happens in the west just not as frequently. Poisoning dogs yes that happens in the west, mostly in places where there is huge numbers of feral dogs, in the SW USA and in Europe. Its just not on the nightly news so its not in your face.
Poisoning a neighbor's pet dog is usually a felony offense in the west and it is prosecuted. But that only became a felony in the last 2 decades due to domestic abuse and poisoning a dog is a very common thing to do before that particular neighbor is planning to hurt the human owner too, so it became a felony. Not because its wrong and inhumane but to protect human lives.
Posts: 2280 | Registered: Oct 2009
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quote:Originally posted by metinoot: I think a number of folks are missing the point about animal slaughter here.
Major difference every single one of you fail to notice is during the Eid animals are slaughtered in the street in most of Egypt versus a slaughter house.
Most of the posters in this thread are from Europe or UK, where animal slaughter doesn't happen in front of people who then eat the animals.
I have been in a slaughter house and the noise is deafening.
Just because the animal is proded with a electrical voltage high enough to render them unconscious doesn't mean they are dead when the slaughtering begins. Electrical prods just paralyzes the animal so they don't fight back when they are being cut apart.
And Dozzer just because the animal doesn't have a constant and sufficient blood stream to the brain and heart doesn't mean the animal is technically dead nor feeling.
Ask anyone who has suffered an injury which over 20% blood loss, the organs are indeed damaged but they do recover and it is extremely painful. Its just that in Egypt if an injured human losses that much blood there is little incentive to save that person, there isn't enough blood in the blood bank nor medical knowledge/practice to save that person. In the west people do survive such injuries and the emotional effects and long term recovery effects are enormous from blood loss.
So in effect the electric prod just makes it easier for humans to slaughter animals, doesn't make the suffering any less than slaughtering animals in egypt.
Western animal slaughtering is jut done in remote areas with soundproof factories with foreign undocumented workers who don't shoot videos from vidcams hidden in their helmets.
Animals suffer just as much during slaughtering in Egypt as they do in the west, its just in the west you don't see it unless you are a dark skinned foreigner who is most likely undocumented.
As for beating working animals there isn't an excuse. I have seen my communist hippy farmer uncle near beat an animal to death and then had to euthanize it. It happens in the west just not as frequently. Poisoning dogs yes that happens in the west, mostly in places where there is huge numbers of feral dogs, in the SW USA and in Europe. Its just not on the nightly news so its not in your face.
Poisoning a neighbor's pet dog is usually a felony offense in the west and it is prosecuted. But that only became a felony in the last 2 decades due to domestic abuse and poisoning a dog is a very common thing to do before that particular neighbor is planning to hurt the human owner too, so it became a felony. Not because its wrong and inhumane but to protect human lives.
I know I'm just off to bed, but I just had to say I agree with much of what you say here Sono.
I posted (but just realised it's on FB not here) that I used to live near the Harris's meat products plant in the UK and while I never visited the slaughterhouse I used to date a guy who did (who worked there actually) and he said he didn't believe the stunning rendered the creatures pain-free deaths either.
It's not good in any country.
However, I do once more urge us not to get diverted in to the whether or not one should be a vegetarian or not 'animals for food' conversation (and in some areas of the world where agricultural land is very much at a premium, there are arguments that vegetarianism is a choice for the rich - but I don't want to go down that route here).
And you're right and I said in my top post - here it's in your face and whatever arguments we have here can be applied anywhere in the world. I would say though that in the west random acts of violence against animals seem to be a lot less common than here (though agreed we do have them - like the gang that used to go round southern England slitting horses bellies open while they were alive or yobbos who shove cats into microwaves and cook them).
What we don't see in the UK though is arguments along the lines of 'if you care about animals it means you don't care about humans - especially children' - a totally sidestepping of the issue.
Of course people care about humans and children too and I cannot for the life of me fathom why it is often presented here in these either/or terms.
There seems to be less acknowledgement here, too, that animals can and do feel pain.
Posts: 5593 | From: Egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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My lack of participation on posts I did not even see bought my attention to the danger of not reading everyone's FB daily Go offline at your own risk
Last year Shanta I had children holding the kindergarden pet rabbit...(John) a project the Director instilled to encourage children to learn how to deal with animals in a loving manner. Then it was eaten over Eid. I was desperately gutted... I cannot tell you how my class felt.
My guinea pig also died needlessly due to ignorance towards the name 'Guinea PIG'
In the UK I was raising cash for deaf people; while holding the shaker I had my 2 dogs with me... one lady put and asked which animal charity was I supporting, when I told her it was deaf people she said... and I quote 'if I had known that I wouldn't have put a pound in' ...
I know my stance on many issues in life... and I am happy in the knowledge that I have done the best of my ability to educate, eradicate and eliminate things in my own way. According to FB this week non compliance or lacking to comment on status changes makes many of us bad people!!! whatever.
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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Yes and also the problem of making posts covering similar issues in different places when one notices one thought one had made an argument in one place when in fact it had been made in another.
My brain hurts ;(
Sorry about your guinea pig CF - didn't hear about that. A bit like the Welsh folk who beat up a paediatrician because they didn't know the difference between paediatrician and paedophile Posts: 5593 | From: Egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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الفوضي تسيطر علي حديقة الحيوان لليوم الثاني.. والصورة مع الأسد بـ «20 جنيهاً»
كتب- هاني سمير:
لليوم الثاني علي التوالي تستمر المخالفات في حديقة الحيوان بالجيزة، حيث لم تستجب إدارة الحديقة لما نشرته «الدستور» أمس عن قيام العمال بالسماح للزوار بدخول أقفاص الأسود والسباع بعد دفع عدة جنيهات مقابل التصوير بجوار الأسود، إذ سمح العمال بالتصوير مع الأشبال مقابل عشرة جنيهات للعامل الذي يقوم بإخراج الشبل وعشرة جنيهات أخري للمصور. وقد شهدت الحديقة إقبالاً متزايداً أكبر من أمس الأول بسبب استقرار الأحوال الجوية، وتواصلت المخالفات عن طريق السماح للأطفال بتسلق الأشجار العتيقة وكسر أغصانها، علاوة علي السماح للزوار بدخول أقفاص الطيور مقابل دفع جنيه واحد للحارس، مما جعل الفوضي تسود الحديقة أمس وسط غياب تام للمسئولين عن حديقة الحيوان ومسئولي وزارة الزراعة.
الغريب أن عمال الحديقة لم يمنعوا الزوار من مضايقة الحيوانات والطيور والاعتداء عليها بالعصي ومسدسات الخرز ما داموا قد دفعوا لهم المقابل مما يعرض حيوانات الحديقة للخطر.
واللافت للنظر أنه بالرغم من توزيع أكياس القمامة مجاناً أمام أبواب الحديقة علي روادها فإن القمامة تراكمت في أرجاء الحديقة وأقفاص الحيوانات والطيور.
وكانت أقفاص النعام والأسود والأفيال وجبلاية القرود الأكثر إقبالا من الزوار.
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OK guys this text is in arabic and says that on the first two days of Eid the zoo was chaotic, no control by administration on anything, animals were terrified, guards would ask for 10 EGP for a kid to come into the lion's cage and touch the baby cubs, another 10 EGP for a picture...antique trees were climbed and branches broken off, 1-3 EGP to enter the rare birds' cages and play with them, animals were being hit/poked with sticks and threatened by toy pistols, anything to disturb them..trash was being accumulated everywhere littering the whole place including the bird and animal cages, although each visiting family was given a free trash bag at the gate. The crowds were mostly interested with ostrich, lion, elephant and monkey displays.
In brief this shows how money makes the guards negligent and careless with the poor animals who have no means of protesting to an absent management, also shows how degenerate we are. Posts: 3219 | From: Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone. | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
But Dzosser business was always like that in Giza Zoo. I remember several staff members would offer me for a tip to feed or touch certain animals. It's their way of making a living.
And by all means what is the entrance fee for the locals to enter the place? 10 or 20 piasters? You get all the uneducated people in there and it's always too crowded.
I once witnessed a boy (about 10 years old) on crutches as he tried to hit a seal with those; a couple of times he was successful. Btw he was accompanied by a male adult. I was the only one in the crowd who went freaking at this kid. I couldn't believe that a child which is physically impaired himself would try to hurt an animal.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: ask for 10 EGP for a kid to come into the lion's cage and touch the baby cubs, another 10 EGP for a picture...
I saw people doing this at the zoo in Alex. I'm sorry, but that is just plain wrong. These animals are still wild and unpredictable. Why anyone would put a small child in a cage with a wild animal is beyond me. I understand the guys are just trying to make money, but will this stop only if a child is attacked? God forbid. They already charge a fee to enter some of these exhibits anyway. Let the parents donate 10 le to the animal keepers without putting their children in danger by putting them in the cages.
Posts: 1626 | From: whatever, wherever | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
I can't get it now because my external hard drive crashed, but I have a picture from the zoo in Alex in which a handler takes a large piece of raw meat and puts it into the lion cage. After the lion starts eating, he sticks his hand back into the cage to move the meat. I saw that and I was frozen in fear. I was able to get some pictures there because I was posing as a tourist. But in August of this year, I went to the Giza Zoo with an animal rights group and a Reuters camera crew. I was prevented from taking many pictures by security. I managed to sneak a few pictures and I will upload them later.
Posts: 1626 | From: whatever, wherever | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
I have a picture of me with a tiger cub at Giza Zoo taken last year... it was nice to go behind the scenes and look at how the animals were fed and looked after away from the public eye.... they live in such small cages but they were clean at least and the animals were being over fed as opposed to under fed as the guards sell people tid-bits to feed all the animals throughout the day. This should be taken into hand.
I have been to better but I have been to worse.
I have also held zoo animals in the UK and Ghana, this isn't an Egyptian way of life...
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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Isn't caging wild animals cruel in the first instance or are we merely focusing on what happens once they have been snatched from their natural habitat?
Anyone see the Doberman in Giza Zoo... Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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A common misconception that people seem to have is that a tiger in captivity is tame or that they are friendly. Working around Tigers is a pod cast from 2007 in which which we went along side with long time former Big Cat Rescue animal caretaker Brian, as he explained a little on what it's like to work around tigers. Like people, tigers each have their own unique personalities. In this pod cast we will learn just how extreme some can be. Tigers are a very beautiful but deadly animal that are being wiped off our planet at an alarming rate.
Sorry, I just think people putting their kids in cages with wild animals at the same time an animal in the cage next to it is being fed is a stupid idea.
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I also remember a particular polar bear in Cairo Zoo. He made constantly these strange movements with his head and it definitely looked like the cage was way too small for him.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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The famous zoo in Cairo costs only twelve cents admission. Of these, 7000 animals must be kept alive. Animal rights activists criticize the intolerable conditions.
These are lies, ridiculous, "says Nabil Sedki." Our guards have killed no animals and they have certainly not eaten. And the meat-animal food - the food, the guards did not either. "
The director of Cairo's Giza Zoo has big troubles. In local newspapers says that in the last three years had gone more than 400 animals from the largest zoo in North Africa: sold or slaughtered. Director Sedki denies all of this
The fact that the zoo is in a poor state, he admits, however. And that might be lost touch, perhaps before his time, one or another animal, he does not want to exclude. He took over the post a year ago.
The Cairo Zoo opened in 1891 is a legacy of Khedive Ismail, the Ottoman viceroy of Egypt. He had given his harem the zoo - the zoo was therefore also "garden of pleasure" mentioned. To impress his concubines, the rulers imported from India, Central and South America, exotic plants.
DISPLAY
Shocked visitors
Covering an area of 28 football fields, he had constructed ponds and bridges. He built caves and cages in the Victorian style for the animals - most were from his private enclosure. But the times when walking only a few ladies of the harem through the park are over: Every day, more than 25,000 people visit the Cairo Zoo, on weekends and public holidays there are up to 90,000. It is a cheap pleasure: The entrance fee is just the equivalent of twelve cents.
Extended families here, have a picnic, children play football, throwing peanuts to the animals. Who will pay enough baksheesh can feed the animals or take the lion cubs in the arm. Brave visitors can provoke quite close to the cage and the lion, until he yells. Or they can stroke the whiskers the hippopotamus - all a question of the tip.
The traditional zoo, located in the Giza area adjacent to the University of Cairo, is bursting at the seams. It hosts more than 7,000 animals. There are allegedly several hundred species, some of them are threatened with extinction. Most animals live cooped up in narrow cages. They have little freedom of movement and are shackled with leg irons to the floor. Foreign visitors who lodge on the way to the pyramids here, like a stop at the zoo, always shocked when they say a picture of the sad circumstances.
Anklets and lattice
Because of the many complaints were in the zoo, 2003, the membership of the Vasa, the international umbrella organization of all major zoos and aquariums in the world, denounced - a serious loss of prestige.
"By law, the zoo is a disaster," said Amina Abaza, the founder and president of Spare, an Egyptian animal welfare organization. "The animals are depressed and apathetic. You can not move." But she also acknowledges that the new zoo at least try to improve. He wants to build new cages, larger enclosure to buy modern watering. And he allowed the tackle animal rights and her team, with. Previously, the animal rights activists strict house ban were in the zoo. "The past director always made us kick back, because we had complained about the conditions. He was the animal care," said the President of Cruelty to Animals.
Even international aid takes on the new director. Experts to develop plans, such as the Cairo Zoo can regain its former status and returned to the zoo provides worldwide association. Linked to the membership are education campaigns and training courses for staff. Thus, employees with international standards should become familiar.
But the Cairo zookeeper must be better trained, not only they especially need higher salaries. Because a zookeeper only earned the equivalent of just under 20 euros a month, he is dependent on the tip of the visitors to feed his family. The entrance is to be increased to reduce the number of visitors. "The poor will be but still can not afford to visit the zoo. But if they have to pay more admission, they will not break the rules and pay attention to cleanliness," says the director.
Nightly camel slaughter
For the safety of the animals you want to also ensure better - with more guards. At night, the zoo will be illuminated. In this way, incidents like last year could be prevented: At that time a butcher had got over the fence at night and had slaughtered two camels. He wanted to sell the meat. The man was sentenced to six years in prison.
Director Nabil Sedki now hopes that the Cairo Zoo now is winning recognition, even for international visitors. Sober and pragmatic, he notes: "It may indeed be getting better."
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