posted
It seems that the targeting of Muslims and Islam has become a kind of national theatre in France. Unlike theatre, however, the disturbing trend can, and will turn ugly – in fact to a degree it already has – if the French government doesn’t get a grip on reality. The world, including France, is a complex, multifaceted and fascinatingly diverse place; it cannot be co-opted to fit national specificities determined by a group of irritable far right racists with a distorted interpretation of themselves and others.
Unfortunately, France is not alone; it merely highlights the most obvious manifestation of growing anti-Muslim sentiments throughout Europe. Unearthing the reasons behind the disturbing phenomena is hardly an easy task, for it arguably requires a greater examination of the political, economic and social woes of European states than it does of the ‘shortcomings’ of Islam.
Islam is a great religion in many respects; it has endured for over 1400 years. Its membership is never confined by skin colour, culture, political ideology or geographic boundaries. Its views of antiquity, on equality, women rights and peace are considered progressive even by today’s standards.
The detractors of Islam fail to see all this. If Islam is dissected politically or ‘academically’, the investigation is done for the sake of destroying its repute, and discrediting or humiliating its followers.
The Swiss People’s Party (SVP) may claim that their commitment is to keep Switzerland secular, devoid of symbols of oppression (as in a mosque’s minaret), but this only sounds like incoherent blabber and reflects nothing but a growing tendency towards racism, intolerance and ethnocentrism. These trends are glaring violations of the liberal philosophies associated with European countries, which guarantee individual and collective rights, including those of self-expression and freedom of speech.
In France, the phenomenon is protracted and more dangerous. Considering that France is the home of five million French Muslims, rightwing tendencies threaten future discord in the country.
The Washington Post reported on December 19 that Bilal Mosque, in the tranquil French town of Castres was desecrated by unknown assailants. “Two pig's ears and a poster of the French flag stapled to the door; a pig's snout dangled from the doorknob. ‘White power’ and ‘Sieg heil’ were spray-painted on one side…and ‘France for the French’ on the other.”
Here, one must recall the alarming words of Britain’s first Muslim minister, Shahid Malik. Himself a victim of hate crimes, Malik lamented a year and a half ago that many Muslims feel targeted like the “Jews of Europe”, and that many British Muslims feel like “aliens in their own country”.
While Many Muslims share the same feeling of nationalism and patriotism in their homelands in Europe, rightwing racists - who are unfortunately becoming a dominant force in shaping public views in various European states – insist on a very narrow definition of what makes a French, a British, a German or a Swiss.
There is indeed an identity crisis that is real and frightening. And it’s one that is not engulfing Europe alone, but also affects and in some instances has devastated many cultures all over the world. While it is a byproduct of misguided and unchecked globalization, in the case of Europe itself the issue is very national and very personal. The European Union, which started as a purely economic body has morphed into a political and pan-nationalist organization that is attempting, by accident or design, to define a united Europe and a prototypical European. This has raised fears of the loss of national identities or whatever remains of it. Expectedly, it is the politically underrepresented, socially marginalized and economically disadvantaged groups that often pay the price of this sort of national resurgence.
Targeting Muslims is a common denominator that now unifies a great proportion of European political elites and media. The reasons are numerous and obvious. Some European countries are at war (which they have chosen) in various Muslim countries; desperate and failed politicians are in need for constant distractions from their own failures and mishaps; associating Islam with terrorism is more than an acceptable intellectual diatribe, a topic of discussion that has occupied more radio and television airtime than any other; also, pushing Muslims around seems to have few political repercussions – unlike the subjugation of targeting of other groups with political or economic clout.
But is their more to this? A 2007-08 Gallup poll asked the following question: does religion occupy an important place in your life? The vast majority in Western European countries answered with a resounding “no”. Only 9 percent of Turkish citizens – a country with a Muslim majority – shared the popular view. Most European Muslims strongly identify with their religion, which has preserved their sense of community, and helped maintain a degree of cultural cohesion and a semblance of collective identity at a time when many in Europe are losing theirs. Muslims must not be blamed for this loss, and nor should they be punished, derided or targeted for daring to hold onto their beliefs.
Returning again to France, what is most alarming about the anti-Muslim measures is that they are largely led by the government itself, rather than a fanatical group of disenchanted ideologues. Eric Besson, the country’s Immigration Minister, stated on December 16 that Muslim veils will be grounds of denying citizenships and long-term residence. Besson was only echoing the disquieting policies of conservative president Nicolas Sarkozy who has started a ‘national identity campaign’ for ensuring an exclusive identity of France - one that is occupied with the targeting of immigrants, particularly Muslims.
Sarkozy, Besson, and Europe’s rightwing and far right politicians must understand the possible ramifications if they continue to press with their reckless and alienating policies.
Radicalization is an unavoidable offshoot of group alienation, which is sadly being used to further fuel the anti-immigrant fervour throughout the continent. It is a vicious cycle, the blame for which lies squarely with the savvy politicians and their obvious agendas. As for those who insist on blaming Islam for Europe’s woes, they should really find another pastime; the self-indulgent game is too hazardous and must stop.
Posts: 565 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Interesting article. I think Australia has the same problem. It is a young country still struggling to find an identity and they are lashing out on not just muslims but all minorities who they believe are a threat to this identity.
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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When I was living away from my country, I was extremely upset about the law they made against the veil. I had many arguments with some French as I truly felt that this law was made against Islam, so against Muslims, so against me.
Now I m back to my country I do not only read the newspaper and imagine what happen, but I also observe different events that made me understand many things…
example, It was reported many times that some teachers and students have complained at school that many Muslims veil women requested that male student should not do some sport activities such as going to swimming pool the same day as them, because of their religion. Or some have requested to have a private swimming pool and gym without men around at any time they want, because of their religion. So in this case, should teachers and students plan activities according to the Islamic laws?
Or Muslim women who, come to a hospital to give birth, and their husbands refuse to have them treated by a male doctor, because of their religion. It happen sometimes that when the woman do not have choice and has to be treated by a male doctor, the doctor got hit by the husband. In this case, should the doctor study Islam in case of he got Muslims patients?
Or, when they talk about Islam to non Muslims, they try first to convinced people about their “ religion”, then threat them if they don’t decide to convert, (it happened to a colleague of mine at work).
And I have many others examples as the ones I have stated above, plus note that there are many places where local people especially women cannot go without being constantly harassed by some Arabs, even when those women are with their partners, and being harassed is not only: “ enty gamilla” or “enty 7sal what’s your name”? its more: “ give me your telephone number or I slap you bitch!!!!!”
By the way it happened to me when I first came to France in the metro in Paris, I got literally hit by one of them simply because I did not want to talk to him, and when that happen to you, believe me you see things in different way!!
Now Mother Egypt I m asking you, what if tomorrow, suddenly some Christians foreigners come to Egypt, and request that most of meat in the restaurant should be replaced by pork, that more churches should be built instead of Mosque, that those foreigners try to convinced Egyptians Muslims to convert to Christianity instead of Islam that those same foreigners start to harassed your sisters in the streets, HOW WOULD YOU REACT????? The only thing the outside people will see its what they would read in the newspaper: “ ho Egyptians are racist, they do not allow foreigners to eat pork, and not allow them to build any churches”
Now in Europe there are many different Arabs nationalities and the majority are not Egyptians, you have seen what have happened to Egypt when you play against Algeria have you? That may give you an idea about how aggressive some of them can be…..
Now sadly, the only thing local people see its what I have described above, and thanks god the majority are not like this! But asking any Europeans who never travel around the world to make the difference between an educated Arab and a non educated one, is asking this same Europeans to be as much open minded as someone who has traveled around the world for many years, it’s simply not possible!
Posts: 1182 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by *Souri*: When I was living away from my country, I was extremely upset about the law they made against the veil. I had many arguments with some French as I truly felt that this law was made against Islam, so against Muslims, so against me.
Now I m back to my country I do not only read the newspaper and imagine what happen, but I also observe different events that made me understand many things…
example, It was reported many times that some teachers and students have complained at school that many Muslims veil women requested that male student should not do some sport activities such as going to swimming pool the same day as them, because of their religion. Or some have requested to have a private swimming pool and gym without men around at any time they want, because of their religion. So in this case, should teachers and students plan activities according to the Islamic laws?
!
Hi Souri
It is interesting that you say that. I have a French friend of mine who told me the same thing. She said that the problem with Muslims is that they do not tolerate others and expect the society to bend backwards for them. She also gave the example of the pool, where she said some Muslims in Paris refused to go swimming in public places and demanded a separate swimming facility for them. That's what I find frustrating. I don't think we as Muslims should expect a society to change for us. There is always room for flexibility. Islam is not made of stone and as a good friend once said, God is not a stubborn child. There is nothing wrong with respecting that people are different.
For example, I find that the Muslim attitude towards alcohol is exaggerated. God told us not to drink, but then some Muslims say that you are not supposed to even sit with people who drink. This of course is from Hadiths which I personally believe is mambo jamo and also 99% of Westerners drink so if you follow that rule and refuse to sit with people who drink then you are isolating yourself from society which is extremely wrong. I would never demand that my Australian friends not drink just because of me. The only time I say no to alcohol is when I invite them over to my house and I promise that I will make it up to them by making them fun food and juices they can try. I really really do believe that Muslims are becoming extremely intolerant.
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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Europe didn't have this problems when the first generation of muslim immigrants was arrived. It is something that developed slowly in the early 90's, but left unnamed because of it was considered as politically uncorrect, and it became more and more a subject of discussion after 9/11. The politicians who were kept artificially silent woke up and said what many people were thinking. With succes. In the meanwhile their number growed, and the world met terrorism on a great scale. Of course it's stupid to blame terrorsim to religion, but by every attack, the religion is subject of discussion. In reaction to that, the muslims unite, and the ones with extreme points of view are represented prominent in the media. The demands of swimmingpools, the discussion about hijabs, the upcoming tendancy to start lawsuits in cases where there shouldn't be lawsuits earlier, the muslim lawyer that succesfully demanded the right to not stand up when the judge comes in, the christian arab starting a lawsuit because he isn't allowed to wear his croos, while his muslim sister is allowed to wear hijab, etc.etc. name it, and it is considered to be a reason to go to court. It is starting to become chaos. Of course this is wrong, but I think we have to realise that we are all doing this ourselves. It is all a reaction to an action, and it doesn't stop. When I don't want to get into an argument, and somebody calls me a western whore, it is my choice to react.I can ignore it, I can call him a filthy Arab instead, or I can go to the police, and to court. When I choose for the first option, and majority is doing the same, perhaps this can bring some peace... Probably this is too much catholic, like in turning the other cheek after been hitted, but i think this is the best solution. If somebody else is doing wrong, my answer doesn't need to be wrong too...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by * 7ayat *: It is interesting that you say that. I have a French friend of mine who told me the same thing. She said that the problem with Muslims is that they do not tolerate others and expect the society to bend backwards for them. She also gave the example of the pool, where she said some Muslims in Paris refused to go swimming in public places and demanded a separate swimming facility for them. That's what I find frustrating. I don't think we as Muslims should expect a society to change for us. There is always room for flexibility. Islam is not made of stone and as a good friend once said, God is not a stubborn child. There is nothing wrong with respecting that people are different.
I completely agree with you, and I know many Muslims living in Germany who get frustrated about those things as well because they also believe that being a Muslim does not mean you cannot participate in the society you live in or you need to require constant changes. We have similar issues like the ones Souri described in Germany. Lots of things are done in order to accommodate the special reqests and sensibiliies of some Muslims, for example many public swimming pools have times that are only reserved for women etc., but there are limits. Swimming and sports are part of the official curriculum in any school, but there are parents who refuse that their daughters take part in that and other activities they consider haram. It is not possible financially and organization-wise for schools to offer gender-segregated sports and swimming lessons, and why would they? There is nothing sinful or wrong in that, if people have a serious issue with things like that, they should not chose to live in a European country.
Some other examples:
– Muslim parents requiring schools or kindergardens to buy different sets of dishes and cutlery, so their kids don't have to eat from the same plates that *unclean* food has been served on. Btw. – in most kindergardens and schools offering halal food alongside with other food has become a standard.
– Muslim parents not allowing their children to play with German children.
– Muslim men failing to support their families because they refuse to take the jobs offered to them with the argument that the money from those jobs is haram – the job might require carrying a box of beer bottles ... or dealing with interest money ... or interacting with women ... and so on and so forth. Instead they and their families live off social money (which, btw, partly comes from taxes on alcohol and tobacco!).
– Muslim parents refusing to let their children participate in sports or biology class or musical performances which leads to conflicts between parents and schools.
– Imams preaching hatred and contempt for the inhabitants of the country they are living in, claiming we are morally depraved and our society needs to be converted into an Islamic one.
– Some time ago in Austria: three Muslim fathers tried to force the female (non-Muslim!) teachers of their children's school to wear a veil. Furthermore they demanded that the teachers are not allowed to reprimand the children and they also claimed that their kids should not be allowed to address the teachers with the German formal *Sie* instead of *du* because, according to those fathers, "women are not deserving of respect". I know of similar cases in Germany. In general, many young boys from Muslim families often have an issue with female authority; I've heard hair-raising stories from female teachers, Muslim and non-Muslim.
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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Why do Muslim leave there traditions, culture and lifestyle of their home country to immigrate to a country that is 180° opposite from everything they have in there home country and expect the receiving nation to accommodate and support there culture and religious needs. Does anyone know of a Muslim country that openly and financially provides for the needs of nonbelievers?
I wonder how easy it would be for me to open a microbrewery, a smoke house specializing in pork products and installing a set of 300 watt speakers at our local church so they could broadcast christen hymns and church bell music a few times a week and during religious holidays. Any one know of an Islamic county I could do this in? And don’t say Egypt.
Imagine a Southern style smoke house restaurant along the train track near Victory Collage in Maadi serving pulled BBQ pork and selling home brewed beers. You know the congregation would be on there way just after hearing the church bells playing on the newly installed 300 watt loud speakers at the local community church just across the tracks. This sounds so simple, yet so out of reach for us Christens.
Posts: 133 | From: Egypt | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by * 7ayat *: It is interesting that you say that. I have a French friend of mine who told me the same thing. She said that the problem with Muslims is that they do not tolerate others and expect the society to bend backwards for them. She also gave the example of the pool, where she said some Muslims in Paris refused to go swimming in public places and demanded a separate swimming facility for them. That's what I find frustrating. I don't think we as Muslims should expect a society to change for us. There is always room for flexibility. Islam is not made of stone and as a good friend once said, God is not a stubborn child. There is nothing wrong with respecting that people are different.
I completely agree with you, and I know many Muslims living in Germany who get frustrated about those things as well because they also believe that being a Muslim does not mean you cannot participate in the society you live in or you need to require constant changes. We have similar issues like the ones Souri described in Germany. Lots of things are done in order to accommodate the special reqests and sensibiliies of some Muslims, for example many public swimming pools have times that are only reserved for women etc., but there are limits. Swimming and sports are part of the official curriculum in any school, but there are parents who refuse that their daughters take part in that and other activities they consider haram. It is not possible financially and organization-wise for schools to offer gender-segregated sports and swimming lessons, and why would they? There is nothing sinful or wrong in that, if people have a serious issue with things like that, they should not chose to live in a European country.
Some other examples:
– Muslim parents requiring schools or kindergardens to buy different sets of dishes and cutlery, so their kids don't have to eat from the same plates that *unclean* food has been served on. Btw. – in most kindergardens and schools offering halal food alongside with other food has become a standard.
– Muslim parents not allowing their children to play with German children.
– Muslim men failing to support their families because they refuse to take the jobs offered to them with the argument that the money from those jobs is haram – the job might require carrying a box of beer bottles ... or dealing with interest money ... or interacting with women ... and so on and so forth. Instead they and their families live off social money (which, btw, partly comes from taxes on alcohol and tobacco!).
– Muslim parents refusing to let their children participate in sports or biology class or musical performances which leads to conflicts between parents and schools.
– Imams preaching hatred and contempt for the inhabitants of the country they are living in, claiming we are morally depraved and our society needs to be converted into an Islamic one.
– Some time ago in Austria: three Muslim fathers tried to force the female (non-Muslim!) teachers of their children's school to wear a veil. Furthermore they demanded that the teachers are not allowed to reprimand the children and they also claimed that their kids should not be allowed to address the teachers with the German formal *Sie* instead of *du* because, according to those fathers, "women are not deserving of respect". I know of similar cases in Germany. In general, many young boys from Muslim families often have an issue with female authority; I've heard hair-raising stories from female teachers, Muslim and non-Muslim.
God Dalia, these examples are so depressing I can't believe these demands, especially the one about women not deserving respect. I think some moderate Muslims should start speaking up and letting their voices heard. At the moment we are completely overshadowed by these fanatics. I am not happy at all of the state of the Muslim world and I really think that this is just the beginning and it will get worse.
But I have a horrible example myself. I know an Egyptian Muslim here in Australia who doesn't allow Aussies to enter his house because they are "kafirs." Can you believe? Like they are the residents of the country for God's sake and what business does he have of what they believe in? I can't imagine an expat in Egypt saying that they don't allow Egyptians in their house. Like how horrendous!!!
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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God Dalia, these examples are so depressing I can't believe these demands, especially the one about women not deserving respect.
I find them depressing too. And those are the issues that piss some people off, it's not just reports in the media or a general Islamophobia. It's observing those things first hand in your school, neighbourhood etc. that makes people come to the conclusion that many Muslims don't belong into Europe, and that they have no respect for the country they are living in.
quote:Originally posted by * 7ayat *:
I think some moderate Muslims should start speaking up and letting their voices heard. At the moment we are completely overshadowed by these fanatics.
I am not happy at all of the state of the Muslim world and I really think that this is just the beginning and it will get worse.
I completely agree, and I really think it's about time to speak up against the fanatics. I know there are many "moderate" Muslims who haven't spoken up because they couldn't be bothered, or because deep inside they believed the fanatics might even be practicing their religion more seriously so it might not be right to attack them even if you disagree.
But I agree with Reza Aslan who said that the next big clash will not be between Islam and "the West", but between conservative and liberal forces within Islam itself. So far, the fanatics have the upper hand because they have most of the money and because they scream the loudest, but the "moderates" are starting to run out of patience, and many are not happy about the hijacking of the faith by extremists and lunatics.
Btw. ... I find it interesting how those mechanisms can even be observed in the small virtual realm of this board. Who is screaming the loudest? Those who propagate an intolerant, hateful form of Islam, who think killing unbelievers, homosexuals, adulterers etc. is a command of God, who believe women should be subservient to males, who even claim a woman who does not cover her head has no right to speak for Islam, who believe that giving yourself the label "Muslim" somehow makes you superior to others.
Where are the so-called moderates? There are quite a few reading on here, I know, but they either can't be bothered to waste their energy arguing the fanatics, or they simply don't care. And that's pretty much how it is in the real world as well. Sad but true. And I also believe it is going to get worse soon. But then I also know that there is an increasing number of "moderates" who are objecting to the hijacking of the faith by the intolerant, the hate-filled, the narrow-minded ones and speaking up. It will be interesting to observe what is going to be happening over the next decade or so ...
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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Yeah, I remember I got very depressed once here on ES when I tried to argue with a fanatic. I think he was a 19 year old American who converted to Islam and watned to move to Egypt because he believed that the West are not moral. I just remember being very nauseated and scared by some of the stuff he said.
Another example, is when I joined a "I hate Amr Khaled" group on Facebook. I got a PM from someone I don't know who obviously saw me post in the group and he told me "f/ck you baby, you are going to hell baby because you hate Amr Khaled." And I was thinking what the hell? Firstly, why is he bothering to write this message to me, who cares if we disagree on someone who is simply a preacher and secondly, how can he think that someone would be thrown in hell just for not liking Amr Khaled?
In recent times, I've been writing some silly posts on facebook about Egypt. Just silly stuff like "What is that smell in the air, is that the black cloud again or did the sphinx just do his yearly fart?." Silly stuff like that. I've been getting some good responses from people, but just last week my own cousin sent me a message accusing me of hating Egypt and being an "Australian Spy." lol. She actually threatened to have me arrested at the airport lol. But what surprised me, is that everyone who knows me knows how passionte I am about Egypt. In fact, when I lived in Cairo, my friends would make fun of my patriotism. So how the hell can anyone conclude that I hate Egypt just because I was making fun of some social and political problems on Facebook posts? It scared because I realised how airheaded the Egyptians are becoming and how any silly comment, is justified as an attack. If this is the reaction to Egypt, then how would they react to criticism about Islam, a faith that plays a major part in their lives???
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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Loool, I didn't know about that group. Going to join it now.
quote:Originally posted by * 7ayat *:
But what surprised me, is that everyone who knows me knows how passionte I am about Egypt.
Indeed, that is hard to overlook.
quote:Originally posted by * 7ayat *:
It scared because I realised how airheaded the Egyptians are becoming and how any silly comment, is justified as an attack. If this is the reaction to Egypt, then how would they react to criticism about Islam, a faith that plays a major part in their lives???
Good points! The main problem imho is that people are not brought up to question and criticize things. They don't understand the difference between bashing and productive criticism -- which is necessary for pretty much everything that you want to develop further.
And again, all those things can be observed on here too. Just think of the person who started this topic, who just recently tried to censor people and keep them from discussing anything Egypt-related that does not paint a rosy, romantic, positive image of the country. Or think about the various religious fanatics we had on here who throw hissy fits and try to silence everyone who dares having a different vision of Islam than them AND writes about it openly. Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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hi im new to the forum, im american ive been living in egypt for a few years, cairo and now hurghada and im a muslim convert. i know what it is like to be free to do anything and let my voice be heard. first i want to say egypt is awesome in that the muslims practice freely and also allow to a degree, freedom of others. now.as for respect for women, ppl have to understand that the women in the society cover up so when there are foreign ppl coming here for vacation they REALLY SHOULD respect the customs and atleast wear clothes in the street. when i go on sheraton st. i cant believe the women look like hookers.lol and im from the USA and the women dont dress like that in the street unless they are hookers lol even by the beach. i feel insulted to see this. egyptians are very sensitive and lovely ppl. they dont deserve to have nudity forced in their face. and i feel sorry for the naked women because they have no self respect lol. i wear the hijab and abaya in my own fashion and i adore the respect that i get from especially the men. the woman is supposed to be protected not exploited.
and about the global muslim hate.. ppl fear what they dont understand and hate what they fear.. i agree with what someone said about moderate muslims standing up to speak for Islam its our duty. the problem is when we do it in other countries we risk being attacked etc. ike that woman that got shot in court! its a sad state of affairs. peace all
Posts: 9 | From: al-dahar, Egypt | Registered: Jan 2010
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one more thing about the modern world it is very difficult to live as a muslim in "western" society because the things that are forbidden are everywhere. the best thing to do is turn the other cheek as the christians say. live and let live. i learned in Islam to not downgrade ppl but to try to understand the way they live and why. SOME ppl know not what they do. if i see someone not covered i think they just dont know any better. they should try on a hijab and see the reaction:-) i used to dress like a regular american and the feeling of with hijab and without is miles apart and wearing it is so much better and i feel joy about it. and whats cool is behind closed doors one can do anything they want lol the muslims i know respect each other and other who are non muslim as humans.
Posts: 9 | From: al-dahar, Egypt | Registered: Jan 2010
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Layla, I am glad that you are happy and enjoying your life in Egypt and feel that you are able to practice your faith freely. This is great. However, I am not veield and I don't feel that I lack self respect. This is not a fair thing to say. I don't see how my self respect is linked to which parts of my body I am not covering. This is just cultural mambo jambo that people have placed on women to control them and to tell them what to wear. I am not saying dress like a hooker, but not veiling doesn't mean that you are less of a woman or a muslim.
Secondly, you say that it is difficult to be a Muslim in a Western world because things that are forbidden are everywhere. But don't you see that a lot of the sins banned by the koran are practiced freely in Egypt? Yes the Egyptians avoid the major sins like not drinking, no premarital sex etc. But what about corruption, double standards and bribery, aren't these sins? Don't get me wrong everyone on this forum knows how much I love Egypt and the Egyptians, I am just saying that there are two sides to every coin.
Also, if you say Egyptians respect veiled women, then how come these women are sexually harrassed constantly on the streets? Every single veiled friend I have has been harrassed. I am not saying that the veil leads to harrassment, all I am saying is that the social problems we have in Egypt are much deeper then the veil.
Anyway, welcome aboard and I am glad you are enjoying Egypt and the company of the Egyptians Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by * 7ayat *: Layla, I am glad that you are happy and enjoying your life in Egypt and feel that you are able to practice your faith freely. This is great. However, I am not veield and I don't feel that I lack self respect. This is not a fair thing to say. I don't see how my self respect is linked to which parts of my body I am not covering. This is just cultural mambo jambo that people have placed on women to control them and to tell them what to wear. I am not saying dress like a hooker, but not veiling doesn't mean that you are less of a woman or a muslim.
Secondly, you say that it is difficult to be a Muslim in a Western world because things that are forbidden are everywhere. But don't you see that a lot of the sins banned by the koran are practiced freely in Egypt? Yes the Egyptians avoid the major sins like not drinking, no premarital sex etc. But what about corruption, double standards and bribery, aren't these sins? Don't get me wrong everyone on this forum knows how much I love Egypt and the Egyptians, I am just saying that there are two sides to every coin.
Also, if you say Egyptians respect veiled women, then how come these women are sexually harrassed constantly on the streets? Every single veiled friend I have has been harrassed. I am not saying that the veil leads to harrassment, all I am saying is that the social problems we have in Egypt are much deeper then the veil.
Anyway, welcome aboard and I am glad you are enjoying Egypt and the company of the Egyptians
great post- well written - fully agree !
Posts: 1325 | From: For tooti http://www.csa.gov.uk/ | Registered: May 2009
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I found it actually MUCH easier to practice Islam in the west, here the hypocrisy gets in the way a bit too much.
I also am no longer 'covered' by hijab and didnt find it stopped me being harrassed when I did wear it, certainly not in Egypt. I dont dress like a hooker either and I do have self respect, enough to know who I am without having to be 'verified' by others.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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I'll add to the praise, great post by Dahlia and 7ayat, I couldn't agree more. Posts: 588 | From: an oasis near the pyramids | Registered: Oct 2005
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all people deserve respect as long as they are respectful to others. part of being civil is wearing clothes especially in appropriate areas like the streets. if u put a woman fully covered walking down the street and a woman in a short mini and swimsuit top walking down the street i gaurantee the girl in the mini will get harrassed because they are showing thier charms for all to see. its an invitation to be harrassed. thats where the self respect comes in. if u dont like to be harrassed..cover your ass lol. thats anywhere in the world.
and yes there are sinners no one is perfect and Allah does not like anything against his words. and like i said they will be punished. allah is all knowing ppl can lie to themselves but allah knows all no matter what and those ppl will always have problems in their life and never be content.
alot of the corruption comes from lack of money egypt is a poor country and ppl become desperate. not all muslims are true believers. and i really doubt that the ppl are praying 5 times a day and truly fear allah because if they did they wouldnt be doing it and wouldnt have to because allah provides for the good.
i do agree its much deeper than the veil.. if only it was just the veil that is an issue. lol i never said a woman is less of a woman because of how she dresses. but even in the states.. a father will say to his daughter not to wear revealing clothes because he doesnt want harm to come to her and looked upon as cheap. thats the way it is in the world in any country. the only ones who like it are the perverts. ( and im not calling anyone on here a pervert lol)
thanks for the welcome :-) yeah i have never laughed so hard as i do in egypt because of the ppl LOL. :-P
yes there is a double standard because long ago the men were the sole supporters and they saw the women as the ones to be supported like children. that is why the men can go out on the street alone and it is not good for a woman to for example. because the traditional ppl wonder why is she out there and assume its for no good. its complex for sure.
Posts: 9 | From: al-dahar, Egypt | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
i wear the veil mostly to show my faith in Islam for the sake of allah which is what i base my daily life on, to please the god. in pleasing the god we get rewarded.. and life is much better to live. i notice when i wore hijab and jeans in cairo and walked i got some whistles and catcalls but when i wore abaya and hijab there was silence. and this was walking the streets at like 10 pm. its not just about the veil.. but wearing clothes. men are weak sexually they cant handle having it all out there to see freely and i honestly dont think they deserve to i reserve that pleasure for my husband i dont need men complimenting me to feel good about myself or get attention. also the veils do help in protection agaisnt the dirt and sun. my hair is gorgeous since ive been wearing it. :-)
Posts: 9 | From: al-dahar, Egypt | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by layla13: all people deserve respect as long as they are respectful to others. part of being civil is wearing clothes especially in appropriate areas like the streets. if u put a woman fully covered walking down the street and a woman in a short mini and swimsuit top walking down the street i gaurantee the girl in the mini will get harrassed because they are showing thier charms for all to see. its an invitation to be harrassed. thats where the self respect comes in. if u dont like to be harrassed..cover your ass lol. thats anywhere in the world.
I dont know where you come from but in Denmark you dont get rspect because of the close you wear but because of how y behave and who you are. If i choose to walk naked in the streets people should be grabbing my ass or breasts. I dress pretty normal for my age (30 years old), doesnt show much skin and still i get my ass grabbed if i get in a taxibus in Egypt. Have desided that the next time that happend i will throw a fist in the face of the guy that even thinks of it. You cant compare the filth that hangs around on the streets in Egypt with the men in europe. They are not taught the same respect.
Posts: 1325 | From: For tooti http://www.csa.gov.uk/ | Registered: May 2009
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quote:Originally posted by layla13: i wear the veil mostly to show my faith in Islam for the sake of allah which is what i base my daily life on, to please the god.
Allah doesnt ask you to cover your hair so you dont know if it pleases Him or not, men have told you it does but it pleases men. It shows you are muslim to other 'people' so its more to please them and be verified by them.
Allah knows my faith without covering my hair, what 'people' think is not my concern. I dont look at another woman showing her hair and assume she is not muslim or assume she is out for compliments from a man either.
I know you are not meaning to but you are coming across as very judgemental.
Welcome to ES, if you have been reading a while you will know this is your initiation Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by layla13: i agree with what someone said about moderate muslims standing up to speak for Islam its our duty. the problem is when we do it in other countries we risk being attacked etc. ike that woman that got shot in court!.
Marwa el Sherbini did not get stabbed to death because she spoke up for Islam, but because she ran into a crazy, hate-filled racist.
Fact is, moderate Muslims who do speak up usually don't get attacked by non-Muslims, but by the conservative forces within Islam!
quote:Originally posted by layla13: if u put a woman fully covered walking down the street and a woman in a short mini and swimsuit top walking down the street i gaurantee the girl in the mini will get harrassed because they are showing thier charms for all to see. its an invitation to be harrassed. thats where the self respect comes in. if u dont like to be harrassed..cover your ass lol. thats anywhere in the world. ... i notice when i wore hijab and jeans in cairo and walked i got some whistles and catcalls but when i wore abaya and hijab there was silence.
With all respect, but I really hate those comparisons. As if there is nothing in between being fully covered and running around in a bikini!
We had many discussions about this issue on here, maybe you should check out the Sexual Harassment thread. Fact is -- back home in Europe I never, ever get harassed, even if I am wearing a short skirt or a tanktop. In Egypt, it does not matter how much I cover up, I will always get harassed. And so do the majority of women who wear hijab or even niqab. Women here get harassed on a daily basis not because of the way they dress, but because of the attitude of the men. Focussing on women's clothes instead of the conduct of the men, such as you are doing here, just makes the problem worse.
One more thing regarding the example of hijab vs. miniskirt. This and the one with the twin sisters one of which is wearing hijab and the other is wearing "revealing clothes" is often being used by hijab promoters. I'm a member of a forum for Muslim women, and just recently someone came up with the above example. There is another member who has a twin sister. She covers up, her sister likes to wear "revealing clothes". She says they both get harassed or not harassed equally. The only difference is that the one who is covered up gets harassed mostly by Muslim and Arab men. Now go figure ...
quote:Originally posted by layla13:
in pleasing the god we get rewarded..
Personally, I don't believe in the whole points for paradise system. Imo that is a pretty selfish and immature way of establishing a relationship with the Creator.
quote:Originally posted by layla13:
men are weak sexually they cant handle having it all out there to see freely
Yeah, and if we propagate this theory long enough, men believe it is their right to harass women, that it's not their fault. And that is exactly the wrong way.
If this were true, women would be more harassed in countries where they don't cover up, and harassment would hardly exist in Islamic countries. But fact is -- the opposite is true.
quote:Originally posted by layla13:
i dont need men complimenting me to feel good about myself or get attention. also the veils do help in protection agaisnt the dirt and sun. my hair is gorgeous since ive been wearing it. :-)
I don't need men complimenting me either, neither do I need to get attention, and I really resent those suggestions. I wear what I wear because *I* feel good in it.
I don't wear a headscarf except on rare occasions, and my hair is gorgeous too. Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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Did i mention im inlove with Dahlia - refrased love your posts too. You always hit the nail on the head or whatever the saying is Posts: 1325 | From: For tooti http://www.csa.gov.uk/ | Registered: May 2009
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posted
Layla, I have to disagree with you again. I remember walking with a veiled friend and some guys started harassing her and not me. Why? Maybe because she was prettier, or maybe because they are sick. The point is your clothes do not matter at all.
I also have a veiled friend who went with a group of veiled girls to vacation in Sharm El Sheikh. Because they were all covered, they decided to walk to a secluded beach to be able to swim. And she told me that the security guards in the compound followed them to see them bathe. This is despite the fact that Sharm is filled with beautiful women in bikinis and even topless. So why follow a veiled woman? Because they are filthy minded and because they want to see what is not available for them to see. If anything the veil makes men even more curious about what's underneath and lets their imagination wonder more.
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by * 7ayat *: Layla, I have to disagree with you again. I remember walking with a veiled friend and some guys started harassing her and not me. Why? Maybe because she was prettier, or maybe because they are sick. The point is your clothes do not matter at all.
You know, this reminds me of something ...
As I mentioned various times before, I walk quite a lot in downtown Cairo -- most of the times being unveiled -- and I don't get harassed there a lot. I do receive the occasional remark from some dude or some old guys in a coffeeshop, but it seems to me that in downtown, the majority of guys harassing women are those on the lookout for a tourist they can drag into a perfume or papyrus shop. And those usually leave me alone because they seem to sense that I live there.
Anyway ... one day I was having a meeting with a group of German women who were on a visit to Cairo, and we were going for a felucca ride downtown. We also did a bit of walking, getting some food somewhere on Tahrir and having a stroll through the Nile Hilton mall. All of them were veiled, except for me, and I have never been harassed as much downtown as when I was with this group, it was very annoying.
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
Another thing is, during the time when my grandmother and mother were young as in the 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s, there was no harassment despite the fact that no one was veiled and it was fashionable to wear mini skirts and dresses. I saw some of my aunt's dresses from the 60s and they are so short they look like a t.shirt lol. And yet there was no problem.
The harassment in Egypt started with the spread of the veil. It's not just the veil, it is the sexual frustration from delayed marriages, unemployment and just overall stress from life. But no one can deny that it coincided with the spread of the veil. I really do believe that the more you cover, the hungrier men become.
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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I can't believe these demands, especially the one about women not deserving respect. I think some moderate Muslims should start speaking up and letting their voices heard. At the moment we are completely overshadowed by these fanatics. I am not happy at all of the state of the Muslim world and I really think that this is just the beginning and it will get worse.![[Mad]](mad.gif)
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And those are the issues that piss some people off, it's not just reports in the media or a general Islamophobia. It's observing those things first hand in your school, neighbourhood etc. that makes people come to the conclusion that many Muslims don't belong into Europe, and that they have no respect for the country they are living in. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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