As an Egyptian woman I was lucky to have parents that boosted my self-esteem while growing up; and that to me is the essence of the high self- esteem.
When your parents uplift your spirits incessantly, it gives you a hell of a boost, and you believe that you can accomplish anything you have in mind by taking the right steps, and by sticking to your objectives with a lot of self confidence.
So, I believe that walking out with self-confidence on a dysfunctional relationship, for example, although shattered by the break up, comes from the positive and very supportive upbringing.
Most respectable educated Egyptian women are brought up with a sense of pride and dignity. Egypt is a class dominated society. So you will find different ways of upbringing depending on the standards of education the parents have in many cases. Mind you in certain villages some parents boost their daughters' self-esteem so much they even proudly call them the 'man' as a compliment, for their dignified attitudes, and word of honour.
In many cases, a psycho analysis/therapy is a great help to rebuild the shattered self, that is unquestionable. But those that have the solid foundation, usually survive, and move on walking tall.
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 03 June 2004).]
posted
I think your book on self - esteem will be an excellent guide for many.
But I recall reading in one of your posts, that you would repeat the 'experience' again ...and that kind of took me aback! Why would you take that road again?
We sure have choices, but to take the most appropriate path for our psychological structure, depends on the health level of our psyche.
It is clear that people in general have difficulties understanding that to be loved, means to be loved for ourselves, encompassing intelligence, culture, qualities, strenghths, weaknesses, areas to be developped etc.. not only for the external facade, that is bound to change with time anyway!
posted
I still fail to understand the point of going the Egyptian 'gigolo' path, again????
Is the fact that your body is ageing enough of a reason to make you go for a man that will be there for you, only to physically service you?
What about the intellectual exchange, the compatibility, the feeling of being with a loved one that cares for you regardless of your financial means, or bimbo body? Would'nt that shatter your self-esteem even more when the gigolo realizes he is not getting enough money and goes for his next client????
This is an intelligent exchange of views, and is not meant by all means as vendictive criticism, and I do not have a negative agenda.
I just feel very very very sad at comments that confirm to me more and more each day, that many many intelligent women do not appreciate their inner beauty and their wonderful qualities.
In regards with the knitting, age is not the drive behind it I believe...as Egyptian teenagers, between school, other responsibilities ~ like learning to cook for example ~ and socializing, we used to knit and also proudly complete 'canevas' in 'petit point' to the pride and joy of our families.
I feel that writing this book is indeed going to keep your energy level really high!
Best wishes!
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 03 June 2004).]
quote: Many European women in Egypt have self -esteem problems. I did.[/B]
well, you're the first i've ever heard of, to be honest with you.
perhaps that's the case in Luxor with all the duped, in-love foreigners moving there for the wrong reasons... but the foreign women - especially ones who are single - i've met in cairo are all without an exception some of the strongest, most independent women i've ever come across.
posted
I personally don't think books on self-esteem are of any value,because everyone has had different life experiences. The repair of one's self-esteem comes from changing your internal dialog, challenging the things you repeat to yourself on a daily basis,and replacing old negative self depleting messages with new positive ones. I have studied this area for years and seen many changes in people once they achieve this. Let me also point out that I believe as many men have low self-esteem as women they are just better at hiding it. Sincerely Julia,God Bless
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posted
Debbie, Penny and Wise woman - if you see this note I would appreciate your thoughts about self esteem - or the lack of it - too.
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posted
Sweet Julia: I am not trying to pry but can you tell me more about why you studied this area and if you did have a problem, how you overcame it? I am sorry if my last reply seemed a bit sharp. I was looking for brevity rather than rudeness.
Posts: 2235 | From: Jail | Registered: Jun 2004
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Yes was thinking about this today but was just too busy to write. I would say I am a person with very high self estime and I would put that down to several things..... Firstly a truly wonderful mother who bought me up to believe I could do anything in life that I wanted to. She taught me to be independant and to go out into the world and find real life at a very early age. She had me working in a ladies dress shop on Saturdays at the age of 13! She taught me to make my own decisions on life and did not try and make them for me. Very importantly she let me make my own mistakes and learn from that. Secondly I guess I was just born with a positive mind. That is a very key part of my makeup. I have been through so many big problems in life but I do look on the bright side and bounce back time after time. It's just a part of what is inside of me. Thirdly I put much down to the education system I was a part of and the fact that I went out to work at a young age into a male dominated environment where you just had to survive or give up on your dreams. The system in those days allowed you to achieve professional status without University so you did it the hard way and learnt from real life which gives you such great confidence in yourself. Further I very much believe education is a life long experience not just something we jam into our youth. If you are prepared to always go on learning in life then you never close down on yourself and loose your positive attitude.
posted
I believe a persons upbringing does mould their self esteem from an early age, but once the hormones kick in, and peer pressures start to control us, then many teenage girls suffer from very low self esteem. But growing up is alway very difficult and the transition from childhood to adulthood can be fraught. But eventually, we live and we learn. Our adult self esteem comes from making our own mistakes, learning from them and using that knowledge as a stepping stone to the next level of self confidence. I believe there are more and more women, particularly western women who are very happy to be themselves, who do not feel the need to be dependent on anyone else and who are happy with the person they are. High self esteem is the result of a long learning process. It comes from believing in ourselves.
Monica.... I personally understand why Luxorlover would "do the same again". She may no longer be a teenager or in the "prime" of her life with regard to her looks.... but she is obviously comfortable with herself and the life she has chosen, and she knows that she can have a fulfilling relationship without dependency. Luxorlover seems confident enough to be able to enter a similar relationship, but remain independent and in control of her own destiny.
Luxorlover, I applaud you for having the courage to live your life in the way you want to.
To me a fulfilling relationship includes compatibility among other things..nevertheless, we are all different of course, and have different needs...
But I have a problem understanding for example how an intelligent intellectual woman would find a fulfilling relationship, with someone that is not at all at her level of intellect, for example...With time wouldn't that matter in your opinion? Or do you think that if a woman is comfortable with herself, has enough self-esteem, she does not really need a partner that shares her intellectual interests?
I think that in the long run, that woman would need to share her thoughts, her ideas her intellectual energy with her partner.
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 03 June 2004).]
posted
I guess what I'm trying to understand is the contradiction between for example a woman that is comfortable enough with herself, as Shareen describes...but on the other hand would for example choose someone that is way too inferior intellectually...if we assume that the someone is the 'gigolo' type or a type that does not match her intelligence...
Also..I can't visualize for example a relationship where the woman has to watch her purse... as I understood from you luxorlover that you would still take the same road, but with open eyes on your finances..wouldn't that be an issue of trust, thus a problem in being comfortable with that man?
Which leads me to conclude that if a woman has enough self confidence, and is extremely comfortable with herself, she would aim for the same level...
What is your opinion?
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 03 June 2004).]
To me a fulfilling relationship includes compatibility among other things..nevertheless, we are all different of course, and have different needs...
But I have a problem understanding for example how an intelligent intellectual woman would find a fulfilling relationship, with someone that is not at all at her level of intellect, for example...With time wouldn't that matter in your opinion? Or do you think that if a woman is comfortable with herself, has enough self-esteem, she does not really need a partner that shares her intellectual interests?
I think that in the long run, that woman would need to share her thoughts, her ideas her intellectual energy with her partner.
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 03 June 2004).]
It is only my personal opinion, but I think you can have a fulfilling relationship with someone who is not of the same intellectual level. It depends on what you yourself want out of the relationship. However, I am not prepared to say that the relationship will be long term, but that may not be because of different intellectual levels. We are all capable of growing apart and lives taking different directions. As for the Luxor "gigolo" relationship, I agree that if you constantly have to keep your eye on your purse, then there is no trust and the relationship will eventually fail. It is inevitable, but love itself will not see that, it will only see the here and now, it is only later that the lack of trust begins to eat into the fabric of the relationship, eventually shredding it to pieces. The "gigolo" situation is pretty unique Monica. It is very hard to explain to such as yourself the emotions which can be involved. Your view of egyptians is very different from the majority of egyptians that the Luxor tourist meets. These egyptians depend on the tourist for their income, they learn hassling from a very young age, and many of them aspire to the material heights they see in the lives of their friends who have put aside their principles, married the Orfi wife and benefit immensely from it. There is much status placed on having a "foreign" wife in Luxor. And you know, many of these men may be uneducated, but they are certainly intelligent and can hold their own in any discussion including world politics. Many of them are fluent in at least 3 languages plus their native arabic. Lol, thats more than me... I speak english because I am, and I have been attempting to learn arabic for 2 years now and still cannot hold a lengthy conversation. Intellect and education do not necessarily mean the same thing.
quote:Originally posted by Luxorlover: I have just been offered a contract in the UK to write a book on raising self esteem in women - a sort of "you can do it" manual - and would be grateful for any thoughts from members (European and Egptian) that they might have on this subject. Many European women in Egypt have self -esteem problems. I did.
Were you ever in a situation where your self-esteem hit rock bottom and you pulled yourself out if it - or are trying to? How did you do it? Simple comments on how you felt at the time would be welcome.
Egyptian women seem to value themselves highly despite what Europeans would see as being in a subservient state. Comments from men about their reactions to women who do not value themselves are also sought.
Your thoughts and experiences could help others.
Many thanks.
Liza Sutton
Dear Luxorlover, Wow, fantastic idea. I see that you have a very good command of the english language, so I reckon it will be a breeze for you. LOL, I think you have enough material to write two books Enjoy and have great fun with it. Love Dreamcatcher
Posts: 286 | From: south africa | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Thank you again Dreamcatcher. Writing books is a bit like having babies. Lonely and extraordinarily painful.
Posts: 2235 | From: Jail | Registered: Jun 2004
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The shattered soul as well as the assassination of character that was obviously inflicted upon you is huge, tremendous, so deeply engrained, and professional therapy is in my opinion a great necessity for sure. ( maybe you have been, and still going through it..)
You are to be saluted for the courage in facing your realities, at this point, and sharing your deep personal wounds with us.
As per your health, I wish you the best from the bottom of my heart.
Again, the more I read your posts the more I'm convinced that your book project is probably going to be one of those wonderful therapies for you, and so much help for others that went through the same horrible mental cruelty etc...
The relationship you describe with the beautiful boy does make me feel like you were/are in need to give more motherly protective love, combined with the fact that you were deprived many years from a healthy marriage/sexual life, as you described before, leading you to seek an emotionally dependent rather 'unusual' or dysfunctional relationship, to say the least, due to so many differences, that did not give you the expected rewards after all because of the totally different psychological structure, you both had.
So let me add a point that is directly related to the Egyptian culture/ mentality playing an essential role in cases like yours.
Many Egyptian men, of the same background as your 'partner' was, when given what you have given to him, unfortunately assume that you do so because you have deep weaknesses, and something terribly shameful about you, or wrong with you, even if you are the most loving intelligent woman and , they do not respect you for letting them take advantage of your kindness, and being abused. On the contrary, they feel the urge of abusing you more, and the more you keep giving, the more they feel empowered and abuse you more.
Because of the way MANY of the Egyptian men/type you have described are brought up, mostly in poverty and misery with a lack of morals, and always reminded that the 'foreigners' are better, learning to hustle and bustle to survive, they feel revengeful; and in their uneducated mind they give themselves the right to punish you for having had a better quality of life then they ever had. Therefore, they seduce you in any which way they can, relying on their youth and their performances, having studied the psyche of a foreigner/ older woman /low self esteem to perfection, in order to strike as sharply as possible, and change statute and empower themselves more and more, leaving you behind as the not so useful one anymore. Very sad, unfair and cruel, but a fact. The betrayal/infidelity he committed towards you after you have empowered him is his resentful way of punishing you - while tending to his other selfish needs - showing you who the master is, and how capable of controlling you he is.
Having known the above about the Egyptian mentality of such characters, would you have still gone through with the relationship, you think? Egyptian women are warned since childhood about these hustlers, as they also perform similarly with wealthier - not necessarily only from upper classes, just wealthier than themselves - Egyptian women with low self - esteem, lacking affection, divorcees or widows for example, if they can, working sometimes as their drivers, their butlers, their gardners, or as their personal body guards, in certain cases. These cases are also included within the Egyptian litterature, and if you haven't already, please read Naguib Mahfouz's works.
In expressing some of my views I have shown very clearly a total disgust to certain aspects of life like abuse, betrayal, theft, prostitution etc...I am sure that many share these views...so let me ask you this, if all the things you and so many others went through from physical abuse from parents, to theft and other horrible things from the boys/men/gigolos were not tolerated at all ever by women/men/people, and the offenders severely punished when accused/discovered, would that have helped change the corruptive/sick attitudes that are still going on in your opinion?
In conclusion, I genuinely wish you the best for many many years to come, and mostly a very successful 'birth' for this marvellous book you are going to write......................
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 03 June 2004).]
posted
Well Luxorlover,first of all you said "I was looking for brevity rather than rudeness.", and no where in my thread did I say it was common sense. There was no rudeness, it was my personal opinion, you asked for thoughts, I gave them. I am not attacking you, so there is no need to be defensive. Secondly I have been a psychological analysis for more then twenty years. I work in dissociative identity disorder/multiple personality disorder.Your quote "But how did you study it. Through telepathy, self-helo courses or did you read books?". I have worked under the leading Canadian expert in this field John Curtis, MD, FRCP(C). It is where I learned that you cannot be free from self-esteem issues by reading a book. We work in therapy groups on a six week rotation, our patients role play, and reprogram their inner ego states. In case you are curious my credentials are PhD and MSW. I apologize if you were offended in any way it was not my intention. Write your book, I am sure someone will get rich off of it, but I don't know how helpful it will be. There are hundreds on the market already what harm will one more do .We all know our self-esteem as an adult is directly related to our childhood, I don't see how many more ways this can be written. What women need are resource classes and more shelters, where they can be assured they are safe.and be taught their own self worth. Again, this is my opinion, Regards Julia
Posts: 10 | From: canada | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
SweetJulia: I am so sorry but you have misunderstood me. I was apologising for my rudeness - not yours. It was my words that I thought might be offensive. I was genuinely interested in your studies.
You have a PhD and understand the situation and the need for help that some women need. Unfortunately most of those women do not.
I am not writing this book to make money. I just feel that I can help. What I would really like to do is start a counseling service in Luxor for the women there that find themselves in deep trouble.
posted
Thanks Monica. Your assessment of the reactions of the Egyptian male who works as a gigolo was spot on and completely matches my experience.
I would like to show this to every woman in Luxor (or any resort where these men flourish) who consider entering a relationship that calls for commitment. As an Egyptian woman you know the score here far better than any of us can ever hope to.
posted
SweetJulia: Can I ask a personal question? Have you ever lived long-term in Egypt? If so, what was your own experience?
Posts: 2235 | From: Jail | Registered: Jun 2004
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So let me add a point that is directly related to the Egyptian culture/ mentality playing an essential role in cases like yours.
Many Egyptian men, of the same background as your 'partner' was, when given what you have given to him, unfortunately assume that you do so because you have deep weaknesses, and something terribly shameful about you, or wrong with you, even if you are the most loving intelligent woman and , they do not respect you for letting them take advantage of your kindness, and being abused. On the contrary, they feel the urge of abusing you more, and the more you keep giving, the more they feel empowered and abuse you more.
Because of the way MANY of the Egyptian men/type you have described are brought up, mostly in poverty and misery with a lack of morals, and always reminded that the 'foreigners' are better, learning to hustle and bustle to survive, they feel revengeful; and in their uneducated mind they give themselves the right to punish you for having had a better quality of life then they ever had. Therefore, they seduce you in any which way they can, relying on their youth and their performances, having studied the psyche of a foreigner/ older woman /low self esteem to perfection, in order to strike as sharply as possible, and change statute and empower themselves more and more, leaving you behind as the not so useful one anymore. Very sad, unfair and cruel, but a fact. The betrayal/infidelity he committed towards you after you have empowered him is his resentful way of punishing you - while tending to his other selfish needs - showing you who the master is, and how capable of controlling you he is.
Monica I think your words will help so many understand what is going on in these relationships and you will have empowered many women with your explanation of just what lies undeneath the make up of these characters. Given this understanding I am sure many would think again before be coming involved with these men or if they do then they would handle things in a very different way. As a European it is so hard to understand such a lack of morality and I can never ever get my head around how these men call themselves Muslims and can pray and attend the Mosque each week. Still they are the ones that must face god one day and he will be their judge. I can however very much understand what you are saying is that if you have no self respect then you cannot expect others to have respect for you. That really does seem to be the bottom line in all this.
posted
I get the impression that some are trying to equate being uneducated with a high degree of immorality. I see immorality as being on the verge of epidemic in all walks/classes/ and financial statuses of life.
Any comments?
Laura
Posts: 3291 | From: I DO believe in Karma! | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Luxorlover: I have just been offered a contract in the UK to write a book on raising self esteem in women - a sort of "you can do it" manual - and would be grateful for any thoughts from members (European and Egptian) that they might have on this subject. Many European women in Egypt have self -esteem problems. I did.
Were you ever in a situation where your self-esteem hit rock bottom and you pulled yourself out if it - or are trying to? How did you do it? Simple comments on how you felt at the time would be welcome.
Egyptian women seem to value themselves highly despite what Europeans would see as being in a subservient state. Comments from men about their reactions to women who do not value themselves are also sought.
Your thoughts and experiences could help others.
Many thanks.
Liza Sutton
Dear Liza, reading parts of your story it was like reading my own. I had nearly the same experiences not in Egypt, but in Turkey. I had a high career, earning good money, was accepted and had a high reputation in my job, was living alone, had many friends ...etc...etc...etc...And yes, my self-esteem was also nearly at its end. But the same as you, I will never regret that times. I also lived among a foreign family in a small turkish village and the help and the loved I learned there was amazing for me. During all that time I also started to go deeper in all themes of psychology, religion and esoteric, which gives me now, years after that, the possibility to start a new profession and a new business. When I had to come back to Germany I needed psychological therapy myself and raising my self esteem again was one of the main points. But all this makes me stronger than ever before. And one year ago I started to study psychology myself to help people who are ore were in a similar situation. From what I have learned so far, low self-esteem is one of the most important problems in the western world and all psychological theories are now going to develope more and more therapies to solve this immense problem. It's a huge problem in fact. Mainly for women, but also more and more for men these days. When you dig deeper into the subject, you will explore, that for example "beating a woman or the children" is mostly based in a very very low self-esteem of the man. He is not able to compensate this lack and battering his wife and children are the only solution for him which is left so far. So, yes, you can say, people who are physical cruel, are in fact very very ill, from the psychological side of view. I very much appreciate your effort with the book and as far as I can I will help you with that. If you allow, I will post here some links and articles which I found and will find, so all the others can also enjoy reading and for you it might be a help. Perhaps you like to start with get some informations about the so called "Trans Action Analysis". It's based on the theory, that a child, which is naturally "stamped" by his family and his surrounding, makes (subconciously) something like a "plan", "script", "screenplay" for their whole life. This is like when you hear someone saying: "Everytime in my life I met the "wrong" guys. Will I never meet "Mr.Right"?.... But according to the TA, you are able to change your script, which will encourage and empower you to raise your self-esteem and along with that change your whole life. I will give you more infos asap.
quote:Originally posted by Penny: As a European it is so hard to understand such a lack of morality and I can never ever get my head around how these men call themselves Muslims and can pray and attend the Mosque each week. Still they are the ones that must face god one day and he will be their judge. [/B]
Penny,
Is a Christian woman who sleeps with these muslim men "more religious"? What does religion have to do with this?
Laura
Posts: 3291 | From: I DO believe in Karma! | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Laura: [B]I get the impression that some are trying to equate being uneducated with a high degree of immorality. I see immorality as being on the verge of epidemic in all walks/classes/ and financial statuses of life.
Laura I certainly agree with you Immorality is definitely not confined to uneducated people. That would be a great disrespect to so many. I do not think immoratity is confined to any one class it just comes down to the human emotions of greed and power. Some people have those emotions, and some do not.
posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Laura: [B] Penny,
Is a Christian woman who sleeps with these muslim men "more religious"? What does religion have to do with this?
Laura
Stealing, cruelty, fornication outside of marriage and with more than one woman, greed, etc etc....are all the big major sins in Islam and in any religion for that matter. So I do not understand how the 'giggolos' call themselves muslims and claim to follow their religion. That's all ! Penny
I wasn't trying to step on your toes with my question. I only find it very disturbing that the term "muslim men" keeps being brought up in this forum, with regards to negative/sinful behaviour, and yet nothing is ever mentioned about the religion and religious practices/or lack of, with regards to the christian women who also partake of equally negative/sinful behaviour. Is a muslim man who prays in a mosque while committing sins lesser of a person than a christian woman who prays not at all and commits sins? Allah knows best.
Bottom line, none of us are perfect, no matter what religion we are.
Laura
quote:Originally posted by Penny: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Laura: [B] Penny,
Is a Christian woman who sleeps with these muslim men "more religious"? What does religion have to do with this?
Laura
Stealing, cruelty, fornication outside of marriage and with more than one woman, greed, etc etc....are all the big major sins in Islam and in any religion for that matter. So I do not understand how the 'giggolos' call themselves muslims and claim to follow their religion. That's all ! Penny
Posts: 3291 | From: I DO believe in Karma! | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Laura: I get the impression that some are trying to equate being uneducated with a high degree of immorality. I see immorality as being on the verge of epidemic in all walks/classes/ and financial statuses of life.
Any comments?
Laura
There are some people on this board who are absolutely hung up on class and level of education and whilst they break down sterotypes about Egyptians they are quite happy to make massive generalisations about lower class and uneducated people.
Each man you meet is unique you can not generalise about anyone. Both my husband and his brother have the same parents, life style and education but they are totally different characters. So you can't even generalise about a family.
I find the continual putting down of the lower classes on this board reminisaint of attitudes of the Britsh in the late 1800's and early 1900's. I am so glad that is something we have broken away from and now we judge people on merit.
Inshahallah the high class Egyptians on this board will also attain this as their country develops and they see 'self made' men and realise that class attitudes are really very outdated in a civilised world and should be stamped out not promoted.
------------------ Jane Akshar UK Co-owner of www.flatsinluxor.co.uk Appartments and Tours in Luxor
posted
Dear Luxor Lover you said it the best way............ these men are not muslims......it is a simple as that. And to Laura the woman who was born a christian but maybe is not a strongly practicing christian, because the societies they come from have different moral codes and social behaviour these days....... at least they are not being hypocrites and claiming to be something they are not.
Work becons ....must go for now Have a good day Penny
posted
It is important to realize that women who get into these relationships allow those men to mistreat/abuse them. That has a meaning: therapy needed.
Disregarding Luxorlover circumstances now, is it a fact that all women/men that go for the abusive gigolos/sluts and remain in the relationship, have a history of abuse themselves ??? The only way to correct that, is again in my opinion: professional therapy.
When a woman marries the gigolo does she feel she has regained her self- respect because it is legal? and blinds herself from the reality that still remains..the fact that she is with a male that prostitutes himself, and that is what a gigolo means, how clear can this be..
Conclusion:
Women that are attracted to abusive men, and allow themselves to be taken for a long ride and be abused in all ways, for whatever reasons, need professional help/ therapy and the 'how to regain your self respect and boost your self esteem' guide could be a supplement to that.
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 04 June 2004).]
posted
DearLuxorlover: I really do wish you every success with your book and hope the postings here have helped. However I do see another book for you on this very topic that we are all discussing here re these Egyptian men. It comes up time and time again. I think you would have a great market for it in Egypt.. think of the number of tourists each year.... and you would be doing a great service to open the eyes of many many women. I would love to see your book in every souvenier shop in the resorts! This problem is clearly not going to go away and you would get some amazing stories.
posted
MONICA: I have been re-reading your notes and find them more and more convincing - it also explains why some women then go on to lose money yet again and again to more gigolos that convince them they are loved. I know of one who has just married a boy (through the British Embassy) who she knows lives with a gay man in the 48 weeks of the year that she is not there.
SWEET JULIA I would like to ask you (as a professional in that field) what you would advise women to do who have no access to support groups and why you think I was suddenly able to cope with a violent step father whose self-esteem was even lower than mine.
It will be pointless my telling women to stare in the mirror each day and tell themselves that "they are worth it". If they did that every day for a year they still would not believe it. If they are older they will see only wrinkles, if they are younger they will see only faults.
is there an answer?
DREAMCATCHER You are putting yourself back together - it is not easy. How are you doing it?
I wrote a full-length book about my experiences in Luxor - warts and all - and finished it in February this year. It is with my AGent but I am not sure that any publisher will touch it. In no way is it anti Islam and it is not anti-Egyptian but it is anti-users. However, if this is mis-interpreted as some of the notes here are then I shall find myself sitting on a bench next to Salman Rushdie.
I would write a guide to Luxor's lower life. A handbook of useful addresses, people and case studies that might be of help to those that get themselves in real trouble. You have some wonderful quotes of chat-up lines on another forum that would give it a kick start - but would any of the booksellers or hotels stock it?
When I lived in the village on the West Bank there was a man there who went by the name of Abdulla - he rode a motorcycle. He gave advice freely to European women - their lovers were always trying to hit him - mine had several fights with him. The only time blood was spilt in the village was when one family 'stole' another family's tourist. I don't want to be pushed into the Nile.
As I said earlier, I would really like to start an advisory service for those that need it. (Yes I am well aware that some are perfectly happy with their lives and are thriving, but there are those that are not). Unfortunately I am not in Luxor all the year as I go back to England to work in the summer. (I mark A level exam papers - boring but lucrative).
If you have any more thoughts in this line - outlets, content, etc - let me know. I had thought about Luxor but the problem is the same in Hurghada and Sharm. Cairo seems to escape the worst of the problem.
posted
AKSHAR Thanks you so much for your e-mail. I have answered it separately. I was worried to death that I might have offended you. Phew ....
Posts: 2235 | From: Jail | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Luxorlover, Another thing about the Egyptian culture/mentality that could be very relevant when it comes to foreigners having a relationship with an Egyptian man ~ from any social class ~ and that may need a thread on its own... it's the 'Double Standard' of a great percentage of Egyptian men.
For example, it is part of their characteristics to refuse certain attitudes when it comes to their daughters for example but would accept them when it comes to their foreign wives... and tolerate the fact that the foreign wife would have had many relationships before her marriage to them, for example... but would have a fit if their daughters were discovered to have had even one pre-marital relation.
In relevance to this thread...the double standard characteristic shows within the gigolo's persona very obviously : he prays 5 times a day but commits sins in between, mostly with foreign women because he also does not respect those foreign women or any woman that gives in to their games in general, then claims he will go to paradise etc... You can compare it for example to women that act in a very disrespectful manner in public, dressed in very tight and revealing provocative manners, behaving with disrespect in front of men, getting drunk without any shame what so ever in public places like restaurants or bistros, but flaunting a lovely cross around their neck...
The double standard syndrome...could be an addition to the mental games some Egyptian men play with foreign women.....and some foreign women play with Egyptian men too ...and that is probably 'the other side of the coin' not really tackled around here, as far as I remember: that could only imply the lack of knowledge of another culture, rather than a low self esteem and the falling into the 'bad' guy trap because they allow it due to their low self-esteem, for example.
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 04 June 2004).]
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Monica I loved your comments relating to the egyptian culture/mentality. You are absolutely right in what you say. But as you say egyptian women are "warned since childhood about these hustlers", I think it must be obvious that most western women have no idea about the reputation of these men. They have not been warned since childhood and probably have no idea that there is a problem until they find themselves a victim. I know of quite a few ladies in Luxor who are in "bad" relationships, most of them are aware now that the way of life they are expected to lead is not the one they thought they were getting into. But if anyone had tried to tell them at the outset of their relationship, they would have refused to listen. Theirs will always be the one which will work.
Luxorlover.... I hope your first book gets published, it would be wonderful if it could be handed out to every single female travelling to Luxor, Hurghada and Sharm.. at least then they would have some sort of clue as to what they are risking. And lol, I would love to read it myself! And if you ever get the chance to write a Luxor guidebook, please let me know, I would love to read that too.
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Shareen, Thanks. If I can help and through Luxorlover book...maybe something will be diffused in the direct and down to earth no frills way for all foreigners to see the light..if they want to Here is something in regards with Islam..since we were discussing the Islamic part of things vs the sleezy side of those men:
The Qur'an admonishes those men who oppress or ill-treat women: O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry you have given them - except when they have become guilty of open lewdness. On the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike something and Allah will bring about through it a great deal of good. (4:19)
So...when a Muslim woman KNOWS her Islamic rights, because of having been educated towards it properly....she demands them ....big time... and shows her knowledge from the beginning of the relationship and has all her family to back her up; that's another self-esteem booster: knowing your rights at all times! because FEAR is also another cause of low self esteem, for sure...
Salam to all ................
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 04 June 2004).]
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Here is something ~ maybe of interest ~ in regards with Islam and the equal rights between men and women:
The Qur'an says:
And for women are rights over men similar to those of men over women. (2:226)
Also,
The Qur'an, in addressing the believers, often uses the expression,'believing men and women' to emphasize the equality of men and women in regard to their respective duties, rights, virtues and merits. It says:
For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast, for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise, for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward. (33:35)
It was an intense thread...I enjoyed contributing and reading all your contributions...time for me to go again!
Until we meet maybe on another thread, another time, salam to all!
quote:Originally posted by Penny: Dear Luxor Lover you said it the best way............ these men are not muslims......it is a simple as that. And to Laura the woman who was born a christian but maybe is not a strongly practicing christian, because the societies they come from have different moral codes and social behaviour these days....... at least they are not being hypocrites and claiming to be something they are not.
Work becons ....must go for now Have a good day Penny
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 04 June 2004).]
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age is not the drive behind it I believe...as Egyptian teenagers, between school, other responsibilities ~ like learning to cook for example ~ and socializing, we used to knit and also proudly complete 'canevas' in 'petit point' to the pride and joy of our families. 
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