If they did most would not get married but often they are told that you are their sister not their wife.

Please get your men to tell the truth so no one gets hurt.

It is about time someone spoke up for the Egyptian wives.

I think what is going on is just terrible and as always it is the women and children that are hurt by men's actions. To my knowledge, and please correct me if I am wrong... but no Egyptian man has the right to take an ORFI wife in Islam. ORFI is haram and a second wife can only be taken with the consent of the first wife. The way you are suffering is just the same as european/ western men that have affairs behind their wife's back and it happens big time.

In many many cases the ORFI wives have no knowledge that there is an Egyptian wife and family... sadly so many of these men are such big liars. Of course there will still be situations were the ORFI wife does know and that is unforgivable. We as women should all have respect for other women and their families all over the world.

I truly hope as Egyptian women become more empowered that they are more able to stand up for thier rights and whilst I see little chance of changing men ... at least then they will have more come back for being so badly wronged. BUT it will never stop the hurt and pain that all this makes for everybody.

I must also point out that very sadly some Egyptian wives are complicit in what is going on as a means of obtaining money from western women.

I personally believe your government should not allow ORFI contacts and that would be a step in the right direction to stopping the problem and the dreadful reputation that is building up in these tourist resorts. Maybe you Egyptian women will need to start making your voices heard with your govenment. Women in the West did not get their rights without fighting for them.

With best wishes
Salam Penny

Egyptian men think they have right to take orfi wives with their real wife as they have the right for that in islam. But I would like to ask you orfi wives who met your married man in the tourist trip or in the net, don't you care from us who are the real wives. Don't you care from our suffering while you are playing with our husbands till you get bored? Don't you care what you are doing to our families?[/QUOTE]

quote:

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Originally posted by hanan:
Egyptian men think they have right to take orfi wives with their real wife as they have the right for that in islam. But I would like to ask you orfi wives who met your married man in the tourist trip or in the net, don't you care from us who are the real wives. Don't you care from our suffering while you are playing with our husbands till you get bored? Don't you care what you are doing to our families?

---

I absolutely agree with you on this point Aziza but how does that explain Luxor where many of the families are in residence.

I just want to add one more point...... this matter of the way Egyptian men lie .. it is something I have not encountered on this level anywhere in the world... and it's not just about the men/women situations it is in every walk of life down to what they ate for breakfast. Well it is the mothers that bring these men/ boys up... what are they teaching them.... it is certainly not.... to be honest. Maybe we can't change the men we have now but there is a lot that can be done about the next generation.

Penny

quote:

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Originally posted by hanan:
[?[/B]

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I think that the men are to be blamed ,it is nothing the government can do anything about.The men have to realize themselvess what is right and what is wrong, they are all adults I hope.
But it is sad that the men make their wives and also their western girlfriends suffer.
But I don't think anybody can stop this only the men themselves.

quote:

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Originally posted by hanan:
Egyptian men think they have right to take orfi wives with their real wife as they have the right for that in islam. But I would like to ask you orfi wives who met your married man in the tourist trip or in the net, don't you care from us who are the real wives. Don't you care from our suffering while you are playing with our husbands till you get bored? Don't you care what you are doing to our families?

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Check the Carribean tours..I heard many similar stories of wives left behind for temporary pleasure and the lies they tell ....Marrakesh around the Souks...same...Paris Montmartre... Florence...Venice...Huatulco Mexico...Daytona beach USA...Cyprus...and the Greek Islands...and Istambul....and the list goes on and on and on..........

About the Liars that were brought up by Egyptian mothers, as Penny is wondering, I also wonder about all the men in the world that are criminals and cheats and psychopaths and really scumbags, who brought them up????

I am really sorry that the women on this board do not have the opportunity to meet decent Egyptians most of the time!!! A community is not the whole nation.

What puzzles me is the obvious 'signs' these men must send to the foreigners that get fooled...asking for a new mobile for example etc...is the FIRST.. but most of the foreigners seem to want to stay in the relationship..and keep up with the unusual demands!!!

The Egyptian wives that are home taking care of their children while the sleezy husbands play, are exactly like all the other wives in the world that are in the same situation.

And the Orfi wives are considered the mistresses for most of these men...temporary pleasure/benefits/could last a few years..while the first wife is taking care of the family. Same BS, we just happen to be on an Egypt search board...not an Italian or a French one...

But the FAMILIES that participate in the fraud, are low and disgusting and whatever the reason for their horrendous lack of morals is inexcusable.

I really wish people would be more careful when they start relationships with other cultures. And maybe also some of you on this board should go out of the communities where the sleezy men are focused.

To hanan: Most Orfi wives do not know and do not understand why they are offered the Orfi marriage. The point here is that many accept to be the second wife!!! A personal choice based on what the Man told her ....The ones that have no idea they are 'second' should check their man's stories and wake up to the obvious'signs'.

The Egyptian wife that discovers her husband is fooling around should find someone in her family to give the man a good lesson. Same with the foreigners that discover the fraud.

It's a vicious circle!!! And pretty much looks like a circus.............
Is all that happening because of lust?

quote:

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Originally posted by kamar:
i tell to all foreign girls: when you go in egypt,not goings immediately with egyptian boys,don't make immediately sex !!!!! if born a love story it is born little by little, with the time....as you can know a man in 1 week,to really know who is him, if he's married or not?????????how can you marry 1 man in 1 week? by now everybody they know that the most greater part of them,in touristic area, they use only foreigners for money,gifts....because to accept this?would you do it with a man of your country? NO !!!!!
by now the too much tourism has brought to this thing....
I hope my lovestory will be different,he know that i take information on him,that I will take a lawyer for know all before i accept...I know that is not beautiful but i live in other country and this is the only way for know and for he this is not problem,he is agree that i do this.I have also friends that they check him for see if he do and go with other girls 8he not know these my friends), for now is not so, all is ok....

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quote:

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Originally posted by arx:
i worded my post badly.
i didn't mean the west receives the worst, i meant they receive the best. it's egypt (and others) that receives the worst from the west.

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Do you realise that this means in your opinion all tourists to Egypt are crap?

quote:

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Originally posted by Jutta3:

Maybe you like to have a look on the site of http://www.kunstkamera.net, where you'll find hundreds of sad stories of european women who believed in the honesty of egyptian men. And after they found out the truth, and after they found out about existing marriages with egyptian wifes, they broke their relationships immediately. You can also find on that site and on http://www.egyptlive.org a blacklist with pictures of men who are cheaters and also a list "this is my husband" to prevent that others may know him also. And this is only the top of the iceberg. Don't blame the women for that. If someone is married, male or female, he has the duty to say no to any other.
I am also Orfi-married because the bunch of papers is horrible to collect, which you need to be legally married in a binational relationship. And my Orfi-husband has now the duty to bring an official paper from the government, that he is not listed anywhere else in Egypt as married with another woman. If I would find out that he is, it would be the end of our love.

---

Maybe you like to have a look on the site of http://www.kunstkamera.net, where you'll find hundreds of sad stories of european women who believed in the honesty of egyptian men. And after they found out the truth, and after they found out about existing marriages with egyptian wifes, they broke their relationships immediately. You can also find on that site and on http://www.egyptlive.org a blacklist with pictures of men who are cheaters and also a list "this is my husband" to prevent that others may know him also. And this is only the top of the iceberg. Don't blame the women for that. If someone is married, male or female, he has the duty to say no to any other.
I am also Orfi-married because the bunch of papers is horrible to collect, which you need to be legally married in a binational relationship. And my Orfi-husband has now the duty to bring an official paper from the government, that he is not listed anywhere else in Egypt as married with another woman. If I would find out that he is, it would be the end of our love.[/QUOTE]

quote:

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Originally posted by ahmed2004:
waw it seems all of you are angels and all the egyptian me are devil!!!honstly iam married and iam working by the tourism field,though my wife is not good in making love[i mean she cannot do it good all the time,and its out of her hands because of circumcision]but i love her so much because she is very kind women looking carfuly after me and my kids,,,,but at the same time i cannot control my self of having sex with forngners womens,,!!!yes i know all of you will think iam doubled man,,no iam not,,because most of the womens,whom i had sex with them doesnot care if iam married or not,,
yes i lie,but my lies depend of the women's age and beauty,if she is 20 to 27 i tell her iam not married,,,then i have sex with her,,,in case she is 27 till 32 i tell her iam divorced and i have kids,,if she is 33 till 39 i tell her iam married but i have some problems with my wife,!!!
second it depend of her beauty if she is very beautiful then i lie what i maintioned before if she is not then i can tell her the truth that iam married and most of the time they accept though they know iam married,,,which means[womens acting not due to the morality as you want to show how you are martyrs!!!!but they behave as the chances which they get according to their beauty and the atmosfeers,,,,,,
at the same time iam using orfi married which i think its right[halal]
but i would like to tell you that i have never accept any gifts or money from the forngers womens,because easly i have a very high income,,so no need and most of the time i pay every thing when she is coming again to me,,and i never had sex with aguly women or with over ages womens[by the way when iam saying over ages ,for me it means over 39 years old,,,]
so welcome to egypt but you should be under that age,,,hahahha

---

So how do you justify lying, cheating, adultery, bragging about your immorality, marrying women who are not chaste, contracts based on deceit, not giving wives equal rights, are these things also halal too according to you???????? (and those are only a few of the things that I picked out of your post!!) Yes, Orfi, if, and only if, it follows all the conditions laid down by Islam can be considered as halal, but most Orfi contracts do not meet all the conditions.

You really do have a warped idea of what Islam is!!!!!!!!! It came to improve morals, not degrade them!!!

Well I guess we should thank you for your rare honesty as it gives us an insight into how the mind of men like you think.

I feel so sad for you that you are so far away from god and your religion and that you have replaced him in your life with such cheap morals and such a sad way of living.

Just remember that in working in tourism you are a representative of your country to the people that choose to visit there. Just think in your mind how they see you and how they see your country. You are an Egyptian man and I thought you would have had some pride in yourself, in your religion and in your country.

Penny

I'm not agree with this behavior but this is the bitter true.......

so, foreigners girls : attention not to do you again from these dear boys !!!!!!!!!!!!!

quote:

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Originally posted by ahmed2004:
waw it seems all of you are angels and all the egyptian me are devil!!!honstly iam married and iam working by the tourism field,though my wife is not good in making love[i mean she cannot do it good all the time,and its out of her hands because of circumcision]but i love her so much because she is very kind women looking carfuly after me and my kids,,,,but at the same time i cannot control my self of having sex with forngners womens,,!!!yes i know all of you will think iam doubled man,,no iam not,,because most of the womens,whom i had sex with them doesnot care if iam married or not,,
yes i lie,but my lies depend of the women's age and beauty,if she is 20 to 27 i tell her iam not married,,,then i have sex with her,,,in case she is 27 till 32 i tell her iam divorced and i have kids,,if she is 33 till 39 i tell her iam married but i have some problems with my wife,!!!
second it depend of her beauty if she is very beautiful then i lie what i maintioned before if she is not then i can tell her the truth that iam married and most of the time they accept though they know iam married,,,which means[womens acting not due to the morality as you want to show how you are martyrs!!!!but they behave as the chances which they get according to their beauty and the atmosfeers,,,,,,
at the same time iam using orfi married which i think its right[halal]
but i would like to tell you that i have never accept any gifts or money from the forngers womens,because easly i have a very high income,,so no need and most of the time i pay every thing when she is coming again to me,,and i never had sex with aguly women or with over ages womens[by the way when iam saying over ages ,for me it means over 39 years old,,,]
so welcome to egypt but you should be under that age,,,hahahha

---

Why is noone addressing the issue of female circumsion? It seems Ahmed and his wife are both victims of this practice in a way. The foreign women being used by him are victims of it as well because if he were satisfied with his wife he wouldn't be hurting them.

His wife may be in pain, or not enjoying making love with her husband which gives him the excuse to look elsewhere. Think how this practice is ruining lives. Sure a moral man wouldn't cheat on his wife anyway even if she could never have sexual relations, but for a man who is not morally strong this can be the push he needs in his mind to fool around.

I'd say more, but I don't have much time today. I think its refreshing to see honesty like Ahmeds'. He is wrong sure, but it took some courage to tell the truth.

quote:

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Originally posted by Luxorlover:
In the south circumscism of owmen is the norm. It is done very early in life. 100% of the women in my partner's family had been treated in this way. On the whole it is estimated that 95% of the women in the south are circumscised.

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Same in my husbands family

Even though the Egyptian governmenet has tried to ban the practise and senior figures in both Islam and Christainity in Cairo have also spoken out about it. As far as the people from the south are concerned it is the correct thing to do.

It is one issue that is always a source of conflict between me and my husband because he approves of the practise and will do it to his daughters. He totally believes that he will be a bad father if he doesn't.

BTW I think Ahmed's post supports my first reply. Most of the time Orfi wives don't know there is another woman involved. So Egyptian wives the problem would seem to lie with the men. perphaps as mothers you can educate the next generation to treat both their Egyptian and Western wives with honesty and respect.

When I questioned cicumscism I was told "Women have trouble when they walk if this is not done. It upsets their insides" but the most illuminating reason was "If this is not done she will always want sex and she might want someone else".

Yet the knowledge of a woman's body was so slight it was believed a woman would achieve satisfaction just because they did and that this bit of their anatomy would not be missed.

I was also told that if they did not have their daughters done "they might behave like European women do". Enough said.

[This message has been edited by Luxorlover (edited 12 June 2004).]

quote:

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Originally posted by ahmed2004:
hi every one again,,when i told what iam ,and what iam doing, i didnot expect receiving offenses and insulting as many members through it up towards me!!!!
and iam not asking every body to behave the same as me,,!!! because i know iam cheating my lovely wife,!!but honestly iam not cheating the other womens because i have been in europe before and all of you know what you call there[one night stand]!!!i have been to many night cliubs and i picked up a beautiful women,[sometimes she picked me up,,,it does not matter!!because iam a hand some guy!!!hahah]and we go to her place to what ever we want,then morning we say good bye and thanks it was great time,,
iam telling you that just to say it happened every were,its your habits,which you learn it to us,,and iam not feeling she is unrespective women,whom doing that with me,,
please we are only talking so donot make isultes,and try to respect each orther as you talking about that,,and to the one who say[ashame on you]thank you,it seems you are very polite person,!!!,,salam my dear angels,,,,

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quote:

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Originally posted by thomas:
[QUOOriginally posted by Jutta3:
[b]

Hello Jutta

I do find it so sad when I read this site and I had a horrible time in sharm with a bad guy and I had no idea he was stealingand cheating from me and now I do wonder if he was married.

as you know egyptians are very very clever and they know what to say to women but I was wondering the site you posted is in german?
is there one in english?

thanks

Maybe you like to have a look on the site of http://www.kunstkamera.net, where you'll find hundreds of sad stories of european women who believed in the honesty of egyptian men. And after they found out the truth, and after they found out about existing marriages with egyptian wifes, they broke their relationships immediately. You can also find on that site and on http://www.egyptlive.org a blacklist with pictures of men who are cheaters and also a list "this is my husband" to prevent that others may know him also. And this is only the top of the iceberg. Don't blame the women for that. If someone is married, male or female, he has the duty to say no to any other.
I am also Orfi-married because the bunch of papers is horrible to collect, which you need to be legally married in a binational relationship. And my Orfi-husband has now the duty to bring an official paper from the government, that he is not listed anywhere else in Egypt as married with another woman. If I would find out that he is, it would be the end of our love.

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[/B][/QUOTE]

No, not yet. I dont know a page with an official blacklist in English. But you can try on kunstkamera. You can translate the pages via an online translator tool.

quote:

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Originally posted by wedi:
Why is noone addressing the issue of female circumsion? It seems Ahmed and his wife are both victims of this practice in a way. The foreign women being used by him are victims of it as well because if he were satisfied with his wife he wouldn't be hurting them.

His wife may be in pain, or not enjoying making love with her husband which gives him the excuse to look elsewhere. Think how this practice is ruining lives. Sure a moral man wouldn't cheat on his wife anyway even if she could never have sexual relations, but for a man who is not morally strong this can be the push he needs in his mind to fool around.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by newcomer:
As a Muslim man, which ahmed2004 claims to be according to his post in this thread and the one where her tells ausar in the “Are Arabs Airheads” thread that he is ashamed that he is so ignorant and unaware about Islam as an Egyptian (!!!), he knows that if he was a real man that Islam gives him certain options in these circumstances: to either stay with his wife in a monogamous relationship with kindness and patience, to leave her with kindness, or to take another wife and give them both their rights within a polygynous arrangement. He should not be cheating his wife or deceiving the other women he goes with. Just because the other women might be coming come from a different culture with different moral standards does not give him licence to knowingly and deliberately adapt when he is with them and lie to them and cheat them to get what he wants, and still claim to be a righteous Muslim when he leaves them. It makes no difference whether he is single or married, it is haram for both.

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Here here

Islam does help a man in these circumstances so for a Muslim it is even more immoral to lie, cheat and deceive when he has a way out within the religion that is honest and respectable.

quote:

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Originally posted by ahmed2004:
shareen i respect your disagreement with what iam doing!!!but i want to depressed on two points;first donot worry about my wife,because i know how to make her very very happy women[not by lie,but its true i do love her!!]
second;i told before that your fingers is not the same,so i meet the womens ,whom see the life from the same point of view!!and i know iam not doing right,,but i cannot stop that,,,thank you

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You can not judge what these women would do if you had told them the truth. You can not tell us your judgement of Western women and expect us to believe your belief that they are happy to do it with you when the foundation of your experience is lies.

Try telling the truth to these women and then come back and tell us how well you are doing.

And of course you could stop doing it if you wanted to.

quote:

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Originally posted by ahmed2004:
hi blue-eyes,shareen,kamar,jutta,penny,
though you still talking to me as iam devil and all of you are angels,and iam the one who has no marality,and iam the one he is cheating all the womens on earth,whom i make love with and of course my wife above them,!!!but still i want you to calm down,and take the things easly,and donot think for 100%iam only cheating the womens,but iam always meeting [mis right] the women who looks to the life from the same point of feiw[ENJOY YOUR TIME,AND GET THE MOMENt,it might not come again!!!]
i told you which kinds of lies i use with those womens to get them,but no one of you try to think about it!!!!i told you that iam saying to her iam not married if she is very young,then she agree,and if she is over 35 years old i tell her iam married and i have kids,but i have some sexual problems with my wife which is true!!then she accept the sitaution!!!try to make analysis[dissolution]to the whole of the situation,easly you will find most of the females behave depend of how old is she?[may be y are not one of them,just to avoid offence any one of you!!]
and how much beauty she has?then they behave not depend of the principles which you talking about it!!!
still iam saying iam not a good muslim,and iam not the good representative for the islam,and i understand all what you talking about the choises which the islam gave me to solve my sexaul problems with my wife,but still,you are not living my situation so i cannot use my rights which is the islam gaving to me,because i donot like to hurt my lovely wife or my kids,and at the same time iam not hurting the other womens,because i have never make any one of them fall in love with me,all my talks is only [having a good time with each other]and they accept doing that,and i would never take money from them[BELIEVE ME I GIVE SOME OF THEM!!]!!which means they donot care what is behind my back!!
KAMAR i realy find it funny that you warnning the foreigners females ;THEY should be care full in egypt!!!then you have to ask them how they should be carefull in thier own countries!!!believe me i have been to most of the europeans countries,and i saw how the men and THE WOMENS ARE NOT FAITHFUL,
and donot forget when they make statistics about the sexaulity in europe[1998] they found it that way[in england 80%of the men and 67%of the womens did it al least one time out side home[not with his wife not with her husband,,,in france more in denmark 84%of the men 77%of the womens did it out side home,,and in holand is more and more,,,!!!]iam not trying to say the people in europe is bad ,but iam trying to say,it happened every where,and egypt has few and very rare from what you have in your own countries,just open your door or windows and you will see how the situation is their!!!!
jutta to answer your question,ofcourse i'll not be happy if my wife did the same,,yes its nightmare if she did it with another man!!but also donot worry because once i asked my wife very clearly;;;how long time you need to miss making love with me????she answered very clear and honest that she needs that one time every six months[and remember the problem is not on me or her,but you cannot believe how much she loves me!!!!!!so iam not worry of this point!!its just imagination!!!
LISTEN EVERY BODY;as i have seen this site and read what you talking about,,so i decided to come and write you about my sitaution and experiances!!!so please iam not coming here to have judgement by you,because easly i know iam not doing right,at the same time i cannot stop doing that also!!more over iam asking you to stop saying[look what the egyptian men like ahmed doing with the innocent foreigners womens]because iam doing that in egypt from time to time,but when i was in europe[i have lived their] i used to do it two times a week!!so the problem is not in egypt,,!!the problen on me not in my country,,,and stop talking about morality,,,because iam very honest person in business and generaly in my daily life,,except in this point,iam not honest and i confess,and i realy hope i can control my self one day!!good luck

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quote:

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Originally posted by ahmed2004:
jutta i hate your way of talking,!!
first iam not lying on you,or on mu self,and i would ask all the angels here,how old are you?and how many times you did it with out marraige,,even or with stable relationship?of course i open the door for alot of you to just lie!!!and show how they are the white angels in this life,
second iam not trying to say the western womens bad or guilty!!but iam saying [i meet the womens who has the same point of veiw,[having a good time,and living the moment as it is!!]i didnot say they cheating on me,,more over iam saying i know iam not making right,but iam making wrong,
and i told you i cannot take another wife,because i donot like to hurt my wife or kids,but you insist to say[take another wife!!!]
kamar thanks for your reply,

---

this has nothing to do with "being an angle" or not! It's just a question of self-respect, moral and respect of your beloved ones. Of course you would not believe it: but yes, I did never in my life had sex with a man to whom I did not have a serious relationship with. And this were my first husband, my boyfriend (for 5 years) and now my new husband again. I was married and I had the chance to do it, but the only thing you have to do is: Say NO! My husband once had a serious car accident and we were not be able to make love for several month. But this is definitely no reason to just say: I need it, so let's have another man. Carpe diem! Maybe its fun and I will die tomorrow! It was hard time, yes, but "...in good and in bad times..." has a meaning for me. And I left him, because I found out that he cheated me and took away all my trust in him.
For example if you would have an accident and you would not be able to make love anymore. Would you like your wife playing around with other men, just because she "needs" it?
At least: when you definitely know that you are doing wrong - why you do it? Are you just a slave of your physical needs?
In fact you are the best example according to Hanans original post: you are a liar to part of the woman you are having sex with. You are Orfi-marrying them without telling them the truth, and maybe your wife will find out one day by coincidence and you will loose the best in your life.
So Hanan you see: who is doing wrong who in an Orfi-marriage ?

You are also cheating your “orfi wives” by not giving them the rights that a halal marriage entitles them to. Despite them maybe only agreeing to it to “enjoy the moment” they can do that as non-Muslims if they choose to, but you have other responsibilities on you by agreeing to that contract. You seemed so proud of the fact that you give some of your women money!!!!! This is their right on you, and more! So by doing what you are doing you are already hurting your first wife, your orfi wives, your religion, and also your own Hereafter.

One night stands and having relations outside marriage as a non-Muslim is one thing, but as a Muslim man who brags about what he does and then shows indignation at other people’s lack of understanding of the religion or tries to justify what he is doing as halal it is another thing completely.

quote:

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Originally posted by ahmed2004:

because i do not like to hurt my wife or kids

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So you think what you are doing doesn't hurt your wife and kids. What sort of example of a Muslim are you to them.

And when your daughters grow up and marry would you want their husbands to behave like you do.

I tell you having a honest second marriage would be far less hurtful to your wife than being married to a Muslim that thinks it is OK to lie, cheat and sleep around. If you have had many Orfi wives then you have probably not bothered about gettign divorces so you are also going against the Koran on the number of wives you should have. If the government finds out they will proscecute you like that did that man who had 60 odd wives.

You know what you are doing is wrong. Against Allah, against the Koran, against your wife, against your children and against those Western women.

The woman that started this thread could be your wife.