Akshar - This is not a personal attack as you seem a very sweet lady. However, are you completly blind? You have made no secret of the massive age difference in your relationship or the fact that he has an Egyptian wife. And fair enough if thats what floats your boat. But please open your eyes. It is clear to any sane human being that the only thing this man loves about you is your money. When it is gone, you will be gone too. I used to read your blog until quite recently when you chose to close it. I think that this is the wisest thing you could possibly do. Do you think that Egyptians don't know how to use the internet? How do you think his family would feel if they read references to themselves? You should not be drinking you made a choice to live in Egypt and marry an Egyptian man and if he was at all respectable which in my view he is not he would not be allowing you to drink. It is NOT OK if you have your husbands permission. This just leads the locals to believe that he has no respect for you or himself. Sadly you are not part of the local community as you tell everyone and you never will be. I hope that you salvage what you can from the reckage of your life before before it is completly ruined along with your daughters.

LuxorLover - You seem a pefestly sane woman living in an insane enviroment. What a great situation to be in. I admire you greatly for the way you dealt with the problems you had with your ex-husband. It is not easy to be so strong in Luxor. You have a fantastic, realistic view on life in Luxor. If only people would listen to you more.

Claire - I think you possibly do have the best Egyptian husband going - genuinly.

Brian04 - I think that you are an opinionated arrogant little man who has no place commenting on life in Egypt. You have no clue whatsoever. But you will see when you see when you meet your "love". By the way is she a belly dancer per chance?

Moll - Why oh why do you choose to condem this woman. She is married and visits Egypt with her husband. She is a perfectly normal lady. But because she went to a party she is a slut. The attacks on Moll really proved to me how many sick people use the world wide web.

I am sick and tired of these woman being condemed for being scammed. The sad fact is they were all in need of something at the time whether they choose to admit it or not. And these men play on it that is how they make a living. My dear knowledgable Monica. You talk about classes and how this behaviour is limited to Egyptians of a lower standard. I'm afraid you are wrong very wrong. There are good and bad characteristics of every nationality the only thing that varies is to what degree these characteristics come out in the individual. A very well educated or as you would put it high class Egyptian friend told me once "we are all cheaters to what degree we cheat depends on the person".

I did consider answering your accusations and have started this post several times but I have decided against it. I will merely say it works for us (Hamdulallah)and in our experience only jealous people criticise us.

BTW how does your recent membership equate with read avidly over last few months. I smell an alter ego

------------------
Jane Akshar UK Co-owner of www.flatsinluxor.co.uk Appartments and Tours in Luxor

quote:

---

Originally posted by Carleen:

Jane, you have a blog?? Oh, can I read it?? Please please?????

---

Send me an email and convince me lol

blogger@flatsinluxor.co.uk

Maybe, I did not make myself clear on the ...shame shame shame on me !!

I said many many times that associating yourselves with the uneducated, and/or the lower classes is not recommended...but that there are the good the bad and the ugly in every class, and every country ...

The reason I was focused on this is simply because the MAJORITY of the victims were duped by gigolos...working in the tourist sector.

OTHER Egyptians are also thieves and frauds and..and..like in EVERY country in the world...

So to be clear on the class issue:

Being educated and/or rich.. does not necessarily place you in a high class bracket.. and being ignorant does not exclusively place you in a less privileged and/or low class bracket..

D'accord?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Carol_2004:
My dear knowledgable Monica. You talk about classes and how this behaviour is limited to Egyptians of a lower standard. I'm afraid you are wrong very wrong. There are good and bad characteristics of every nationality the only thing that varies is to what degree these characteristics come out in the individual. A very well educated or as you would put it high class Egyptian friend told me once "we are all cheaters to what degree we cheat depends on the person".

[This message has been edited by Carol_2004 (edited 17 August 2004).]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by akshar:
BTW how does your recent membership equate with read avidly over last few months. I smell an alter ego

---

You're right Jane, there are several alter egos around here , yes many

But also keep in mind, that unlike the new set-up at youregypt.com, you don't ever ever ever have to join Egyptsearch to read this stuff. So there are 4,000 MEMBERS, but keep in mind there may be 10,000 NON MEMBERS reading this site as well.

Egyptsearch forum pages pop up in search engine quite often on a variety of topics. Just thought you might want to keep this in mind when exposing your personal life along with a link to your business site with you and your husband's cell phone number when posting.

Personally I don't care about your personal life per se, but in my opinion I think it's a bad business practice when it's linked to your business. On the one hand you have a very professional website, and the other hand you don't conduct yourself like a professional exposing yourself. Don't you wonder why you're always the brunt of negative opinions? Well keep people out of your business and they don't have an opinion to form one way or the other. Unless you're one of those types that feel any publicity is good publicity, who knows.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Carol_2004:

A very well educated or as you would put it high class Egyptian friend told me once "we are all cheaters to what degree we cheat depends on the person".

---

I know it's not your words Carol but that is quite an inditement and I am surprised more people have not jumped on it...shows things are quiet around here these days.

Is your friend meaning all Egyptians are cheaters or all people in general are cheaters?

Actually I think that none of those descriptions fit me but --- it is nice for once for someone to say they think that I am trying to hold on to some sanity. Thank you Carol.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny:
I know it's not your words Carol but that is quite an inditement and I am surprised more people have not jumped on it...shows things are quiet around here these days.

Is your friend meaning all Egyptians are cheaters or all people in general are cheaters?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ScarlettHamada:
Shareen...the problem with straddling the fence is that one invariably gets splinters in one's arse....lol

---

LOL

quote:

---

Originally posted by ScarlettHamada:
Shareen...the problem with straddling the fence is that one invariably gets splinters in one's arse....lol

---

OUCH!!

My Luxor friends who are married to Egyptians (not orfi marriages) would not dream of drinking alcohol in their presence as it would cause an almost irreparable rift in their relationship. What happens in Cairo is not the same as on the West Bank of Luxor where pracising Muslims do not drink alcohol and most places do not sell it.

Many Egyptian men drink alcohol but they cannot call themselves Muslims. It is not possible for them to be both drinkers and believers. Many let their European wives drink too but they would have a fit if their Egyptian wives disgraced them in this way. It is all a matter of culture.

I am not saying that I agree with it I am just saying that it is the way things are.

It's the same on the tea front. If a man asks you to take tea with him when your husband is not with you, it is an unsult and an offer that would never be made to an Egyptian woman. If a man asked an Egyptian woman to come in for a cup of tea, her family would have him beaten up.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Luxorlover:
Many Egyptian men drink alcohol but they cannot call themselves Muslims.

---

YES, they can..they do and they ARE Muslims.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Luxorlover:

It is not possible for them to be both drinkers and believers.

---

Yes it's possible, not wise but certainly possible.They are the samd as you and I, Sinners but Muslims nevertheless.

As far as the tea goes it is something entirely different. Penny (I think) said a long time ago that no decent Egyptian man would put himself in a position where he is alone with a woman who was not his wife. It is the same with the tea thing. If he is asking you in for tea then he is asking you in for something else. It is something that no decent man would do. He would ask your husband if at some time you could possibly take tea with his wife. If he is a shopkeeper then he wants you to buy something.

El Magnoon - how many times have you instulted me and said "you call yourself a Muslim bla bla bla" for some innocent thing that I have said that contravenes some vague hadith that nobody else has clarified and yet you can defend alcohol. Your ideals change with the wind and with whover makes the comment. Is it only my observations that get up your nose.

Now I shall join scarlett on the fence and get splinters in my bum.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ge Ge:
I find that most odd. Muslims do not drink because the Quoran states this and yet if a man invites a woman for a cup of tea her family would have him beaten up.I thought the Quaran was against violence as well as alchohol.

---

What does drinking alcohol have to do with a man seeing a woman??? For a man to invite a woman to his home without supervision from her family is not accepted.Why?...what do men and women do when they are alone...what is the general perception...????What do men in general have in mind when they invite you to private dinners alone at their homes???This guy whom you are talking about must have been a foreigner...rule #1...things like that are not accepted,especially from decent families.No muslim guy would be stupid enough to attempt something like that.The reason to why it is not accepted is to gaurd the woman against slander and whatever other evil might come of it...in general people are very suspicious.Even if nothing happens between them...the fact remains that they were alone.In the west if a girl and boy studies together and insists on studying in the girl's bedroom...what does the father say???....Oh its ok go ahead...go to my daughters bedroom and close the door!...Yeah right! ..Anyway only an idiot man would take the chance to invite the woman in the first place maybe if he knew her culture he would have thought twice....but he can always hire someone if he is sooo desperate to have tea!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ge Ge:
I thought the Quaran was against violence as well as alchohol.

---

Quaran against violence ... please tell me you're kidding!

For the fun of it...I once stopped by an official Quraan website and I put in the search engine word "Kill"...I came up with almost 1200 Quraan verses...

It takes years here to get your head around the culture. After more than six years I still learn new things each day all of which amaze and confound me.

Natashah is right: What, to the tourist, is thought of as friendly is actually disrespect. Although it is fortunate that they never realise it. "Ten thousand camels to buy you" usually raises a laugh when in fact you are being called something not very nice.

I posted it somewhere else but I will say it again anyway at the risk of being boring. The men here say there is a fifteen minute rule with European women. "Five minutes to drink tea, five minutes to talk and five minutes to find a bed." When someone asks me to take tea with them I just politely say "No thank you" and walk on without looking the man in the face. He will probably tell his mates that he had sex with me anyway and if he was seen talking to me then they will believe him.

I never let strange men photograph me with them either. When I used to visit the temples when I first came here there would always be a group of boy/men who would want to be photographed with me. My partner went ballistic. It was only then that I realised that the photos would be shown around with the tag "this is my European woman that I shag five times a day". No Egyptian woman would ever allow herself to be photographed with someone she did not know.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Luxorlover:
OK - I will rephrase. It is not possible to be a GOOD Muslim and to drink.

---

Tsk. Tsk.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Luxorlover:
Joshua - please don't get going on that line. This is a cultural rather than a religious thing.

It takes years here to get your head around the culture. After more than six years I still learn new things each day all of which amaze and confound me.

Natashah is right: What, to the tourist, is thought of as friendly is actually disrespect. Although it is fortunate that they never realise it. "Ten thousand camels to buy you" usually raises a laugh when in fact you are being called something not very nice.

I posted it somewhere else but I will say it again anyway at the risk of being boring. The men here say there is a fifteen minute rule with European women. "Five minutes to drink tea, five minutes to talk and five minutes to find a bed." When someone asks me to take tea with them I just politely say "No thank you" and walk on without looking the man in the face. He will probably tell his mates that he had sex with me anyway and if he was seen talking to me then they will believe him.

I never let strange men photograph me with them either. When I used to visit the temples when I first came here there would always be a group of boy/men who would want to be photographed with me. My partner went ballistic. It was only then that I realised that the photos would be shown around with the tag "this is my European woman that I shag five times a day". No Egyptian woman would ever allow herself to be photographed with someone she did not know.

Perhaps things are different in Cairo but in Luxor traditions die hard.

---

LL, what you are describing is probably the lowest class of Egyptians in Egypt. I hope I don't offend you but it really is. I have a pretty good idea of the class you're surrounded by. I wonder what brought you there...

I live in Heliopolis, my husbands family is very 'modern', and very untraditional in many ways, but some rules and red lines are not to be crossed.

In 10 years in Egypt within, around and inbetween family, friends, work, neighbours, relatives etc. I have not met one decent Egyptian man (Muslim or Christian) who would ask to be invited for tea by a woman alone at home. And any decent woman I know would slam the door in the face of such a man, if she would even open the door at all from the beginning.

LL, things in Cairo are not that much different - the tiny group of you modern, high-class people who have elevated yourselves over the 'normal' Egyptians by abandoning your traditional, cultural, religious, ethical beliefs and morals for the price of being acceptable to the more 'western' and more 'liberal' and more 'free' world, might as well disagree.

Joshua: What is an Egyptian low life. One who is illiterate - more than 50% of the population. One who lives off the land and has only the basic education - probably again the majority.

What should I consider as low class. If I look at education then 95% of the world are less educated than me. If I look at wealth, then I still come off pretty well. If I look at intelligence then that is something different. - itelligence and education should never be confused with each other. Most of the people I meet are more intelligent than all the intelligensia that I spent most of my working life with.

Why am I here? Do you know so little about English women? Had I been born in another century I would probably have been venturing through south America of the Himalayas on a donkey. As it is I have tramped through the Himalayas anyway and instead of South America I chose South-East Asia. Englishwomen of education (not my description) are notoriously eccentic.

Going back to the alcohol issue for those that do drink because they are not muslim.......have you thought how this is for your husband/partner when he kisses you if you have been drinking alcohol if he is a strong muslim. I really don't understand how you can be married to a muslim man and continue to drink. Have you not worked out than when an Egyptian man says... no I would not ask you to stop drinking alcohol...what he means is.... I will not insult you by telling you what to do as I respect that your culture/religion is different to mine, but I would absolutely love it if you
would stop drinking it and not have that in our home.

What an Egyptian man says and what he means are very often two different things.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Luxorlover:
ExptinCairo: Can we agree to differ and not get into another fight. I did not like the last one and I won't particpate in another. You don't like me - so what? I am a lousy Muslim, so what? Am I supposed to lie down and die?

---

down with the drama. i don't recall a fight, let alone the last fight with you, i don't like or dislike you (how can you from a username on the internet?!) and i don't judge whether you are or are not a good muslim.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Luxorlover:
ExptinCairo - Strange how I remember things so differently and how short a memory you have.

---

if i held a grudge against everyone, or took things people wrote on the internet - people i didn't know so close to heart- i'd be a pretty unhappy and insecure person.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Luxorlover:
OK - how many times have you instulted me and said "you call yourself a Muslim bla bla bla" for some innocent thing that I have said that contravenes some vague hadith that nobody else has clarified and yet you can defend alcohol. Your ideals change with the wind and with whover makes the comment. Is it only my observations that get up your nose.

Now I shall join scarlett on the fence and get splinters in my bum.

---

You're always under the impression that people are insutling you.
I'm not "defend alcohol" at all, my point was quite clear, those of us Muslims who sin are still Muslims those like you mentioned not good ones...end of story.

I never told you you're not real Muslim I recall telling you stop pretending and that wasn't in reference to Islam but ot knowing and Understanding Egyptian Cluture.I do believe many of you (foreigners) are under the impression that you understand the culture but you act competely opposite .

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ge Ge:
I know my Egyptian friend does not like me to drink alchohol. He has not said as much but when you are close to someone you know,and fortunately I do not drink anyway.But surely if a muslim engages in a relationship with a christian why should he expect her to change everything about her life.I have never tried to change anyone I have been in a relationship with.If that is how a muslim man feels then he should be in a relationship with a muslim woman.I do not expect my friend to give up anything for me or have to change I love him as he is.I respect him and everything about his religion,but it is not my religion.And if he loves me he will not want me to change and if he does why did he choose me in the first place.You have to respect each others cultures and you have to accept that you have will have differences.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Carol_2004:
All that you have said makes sense. However, the comment I made initally towards Jane re drinking I still stand by. In Upper Egypt especially everything revolves around respect. The Egyptian definition of respect differs slightly to the western view of what is respectable or respectful and what is not. Here in the UK it is fine for a lady to have a drink or four if she wants as it is in Egypt if you are a visitor. If you are married to a good muslim man it is NOT. It is not about changing who you are but comprimising to make your husbands life easier. You chose to live in his country in order for you to have respect from the locals, his family, his friends and even from him I think it is a relatively small comprimise. Equally if he chose to live in the UK he would have to make comprimises for example not being 2 min from a mosque perhaps.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Carol_2004:
All that you have said makes sense. However, the comment I made initally towards Jane re drinking I still stand by. In Upper Egypt especially everything revolves around respect. The Egyptian definition of respect differs slightly to the western view of what is respectable or respectful and what is not. Here in the UK it is fine for a lady to have a drink or four if she wants as it is in Egypt if you are a visitor. If you are married to a good muslim man it is NOT. It is not about changing who you are but comprimising to make your husbands life easier. You chose to live in his country in order for you to have respect from the locals, his family, his friends and even from him I think it is a relatively small comprimise. Equally if he chose to live in the UK he would have to make comprimises for example not being 2 min from a mosque perhaps.

---

Exactly Carol it does all come back to respect and the fact you are living in his country, his society. I would just add that if you do make these small compromises then if the man is anything like my husband you will get back 10 fold what you give up and my husband never forgets or takes any of it for granted. He never ever stops telling me how proud he is of me.

Penny

You and Expatin cairo are both just beligerant. Even your reference to put it right was beligerant. Neither of you can help it. Whatever is it that I have done now that ranks along being compared with murderers complaining that they had been attacked. See what I mean? STrange logic again.

goodness, when someone pegged you for a drama queen just days after you first began posting, i though they were hash. mmm...me wrong.

truly - and i say this from the bottom of my heart LL - i don't spend a moment of my existence thinking about you. you are just a screen name on my computer and i have absolutely no personal vendetta about you, let alone recall your lifestory or dislike you.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Luxorlover:
ElMagnoon I think I said you attacked me regularly - not that you insulted me. Ahmed insulted me - you did not.

---

You left a few names off your list of insulters. Shall I take out the violin and play it while you recall them all?

It's almost as if you intentionally provoke people with snide yet subtle remarks, but you always come out the victim.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Luxorlover:
So far this week on another forum (YE) an Egytpian man has called me a 'slut, a 'whore' and a 'crazy old woman'. All because he thinks that anyone who has been unfaithful to a man at some time in her life should be stoned. (The tragedy of Islamic fervour).

Actually I think that none of those descriptions fit me but --- it is nice for once for someone to say they think that I am trying to hold on to some sanity. Thank you Carol.

No, I am not trying to appease anybody. I am just trying to put my nerves back together.

---

Good heavens, you couldn't even take a nice 'compliment' without bringing up insults, and from ANOTHER THREAD. You're truly amazing, that's all I can say.