quote:Originally posted by Merima: And the tricky question is: Does one obey oneself and leads an independent and self-determined life even if it goes against oneīs religion? Or is religion put in first place?
Well, that's difficult. What do you mean by *obey* yourself? I would hope that a person can lead a self-determined life that is in concert with his/her religion...
But if we stick to my exampe with a Muslim woman falling in love with a non-Muslim: Is it possible for her to act according to her feelings and listening to her heart without violating religious rules?
i lost u ... what's your question / argument?
Posts: 2049 | From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2005
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And the tricky question is: Does one obey oneself and leads an independent and self-determined life even if it goes against oneīs religion? Or is religion put in first place? [/QB]
Now that Muslims are so much better at obeying God and are so superior to Christians, what do you think? [/QB][/QUOTE]
Nobody is talking about Muslim superiority to Christians. And who told you that Muslims are much better at obeying God? Yoi can confidently doubt this
Posts: 173 | From: Germany | Registered: Nov 2005
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People are often unreasonable, irrational, and self-centered. Forgive them anyway.
If you are kind, people may accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives. Be kind anyway.
If you are successful, you will win some unfaithful friends and some genuine enemies. Succeed anyway.
If you are honest and sincere people may deceive you. Be honest and sincere anyway.
What you spend years creating, others could destroy overnight. Create anyway.
If you find serenity and happiness, some may be jealous. Be happy anyway.
The good you do today, will often be forgotten. Do good anyway.
Give the best you have, and it will never be enough. Give your best anyway.
In the final analysis, it is between you and God. It was never between you and them anyway.
Posts: 1744 | From: Romania | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Merima: But if we stick to my exampe with a Muslim woman falling in love with a non-Muslim: Is it possible for her to act according to her feelings and listening to her heart without violating religious rules?
Well, acting according to her feelings and listening to her heart often gets a girl in trouble.
That is such an intensely personal decision to make. It depends on things like how important is religion in the woman's life? Religion is there forever while a man probably won't be.
But on the other side of the coin, I think you help yourself, your husband, your children, and society in general by having a warm, loving caring family. And in a way, I see that as showing love for God.
None of us is perfect. I would still consider that woman a Muslim even if she married a non-Muslim. We humans can only see a person's actions, but God sees her heart.
I donīt like this idea that a Muslim woman has to decide: either the guy or the religion. She should be able to have both at the same time.
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quote:Originally posted by _Masrawi_: i lost u ... what's your question / argument? [/QB]
It looks as if a Muslim woman can only decide: the guy or the religion. She should have both. After all, men donīt have to make a decision. Was this clearer? I hope so
Posts: 173 | From: Germany | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by _Masrawi_: i lost u ... what's your question / argument?
It looks as if a Muslim woman can only decide: the guy or the religion. She should have both. After all, men donīt have to make a decision. Was this clearer? I hope so [/QB]
yes, it was clearer but the same argument applies. it's the way the religion is. i have a muslim friend who married a jew ... he had to accept that his kids were gonna be jews because she happened to be more religious than he is. so, bottom line is there are certain aspects of religion that we can't change ... we either accept it or we don't.
Posts: 2049 | From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by _Masrawi_: i lost u ... what's your question / argument?
It looks as if a Muslim woman can only decide: the guy or the religion. She should have both. After all, men donīt have to make a decision. Was this clearer? I hope so
yes, it was clearer but the same argument applies. it's the way the religion is. i have a muslim friend who married a jew ... he had to accept that his kids were gonna be jews because she happened to be more religious than he is. so, bottom line is there are certain aspects of religion that we can't change ... we either accept it or we don't. [/QB]
Shouldnīt religion be more "flexible" so that we can adjust it to our lifes instead adjusting our lifes to religion? I still donīt like this idea of accepting religion or being "kicked" out. There should be a happy medium. I know, I know, "real" Muslims are going to give me hell for this Posts: 173 | From: Germany | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by _Masrawi_: i lost u ... what's your question / argument?
It looks as if a Muslim woman can only decide: the guy or the religion. She should have both. After all, men donīt have to make a decision. Was this clearer? I hope so
yes, it was clearer but the same argument applies. it's the way the religion is. i have a muslim friend who married a jew ... he had to accept that his kids were gonna be jews because she happened to be more religious than he is. so, bottom line is there are certain aspects of religion that we can't change ... we either accept it or we don't.
Shouldnīt religion be more "flexible" so that we can adjust it to our lifes instead adjusting our lifes to religion? I still donīt like this idea of accepting religion or being "kicked" out. There should be a happy medium. I know, I know, "real" Muslims are going to give me hell for this [/QB]
oh no ... this isn't only about islam. it's about any form of organized religion ... i.e. religions with a doctrine.
Can u be gay and Catholic? Yes, u can ... would the church accept u? No. So, it's a choice.
Posts: 2049 | From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Merima: Shouldnīt religion be more "flexible" so that we can adjust it to our lifes instead adjusting our lifes to religion? I still donīt like this idea of accepting religion or being "kicked" out. There should be a happy medium. I know, I know, "real" Muslims are going to give me hell for this [/QB]
WHICH RELIGION ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT NOW...SINCE REAL RELIGION ( FAITH) NO MATTER WHAT YOU NAME IT ..IS VERY TOLERANT...AND UNDERSTANDING... IT IS THE PEOPLE'S UNDERSTANDING OF THE RELIGION THAT IS NOT..
Posts: 2691 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Tiger1225: IT IS THE PEOPLE'S UNDERSTANDING OF THE RELIGION THAT IS NOT..
Then how are people *misunderstanding* religion?
you are smarter than asking a question like that...no text book said to kill for no reason..no text book said Lie to the people...no text book said take other people's land and kill who object.....more and more....Come on....I know that your IQ is higher than mine and I was able to figer that on my own
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quote:Originally posted by Tiger1225: you are smarter than asking a question like that...no text book said to kill for no reason..no text book said Lie to the people...no text book said take other people's land and kill who object.....more and more....Come on....I know that your IQ is higher than mine and I was able to figer that on my own
You're busting on my intelligence?
Anyway, it was a serious question since the people who seem intolerant are the ones who take every word literally. And the ideas of *literal* and *misunderstanding* the religion don't seem to jive on the surface. That's why I asked.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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I wish ES had different Graemlins(Emoticons) would love to send Flowers.. What date did u set for ur wedding?
Jannah
Thank you Jannah. January 1, God willing. Just formalities that day....hopefully a party in the summer after my busy season at work (coming up soon) Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Tiger1225: you are smarter than asking a question like that...no text book said to kill for no reason..no text book said Lie to the people...no text book said take other people's land and kill who object.....more and more....Come on....I know that your IQ is higher than mine and I was able to figer that on my own
You're busting on my intelligence?
Anyway, it was a serious question since the people who seem intolerant are the ones who take every word literally. And the ideas of *literal* and *misunderstanding* the religion don't seem to jive on the surface. That's why I asked.
No I was not I'm dead serious when I say you have a higher IQ than me ...for God's sake you are an attorney...
Literal meaning of things could lead to a lot of troubles as you know..Look at the court system..and you know what I'm talking about...
Posts: 2691 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I know, but nothing in the US Constitution says we need to take it literally. In fact, there is a whole body of law on how to interpret constitutional issues, statutory requirements, and case law. There is room for interpretation based on precedent in American law.
There seems to be no room for interpetation in religion by people who take every word literally. That's all.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: I know, but nothing in the US Constitution says we need to take it literally. In fact, there is a whole body of law on how to interpret constitutional issues, statutory requirements, and case law. There is room for interpretation based on precedent in American law.
There seems to be no room for interpetation in religion by people who take every word literally. That's all.
My friend you are comparing APPLES to ORANGES..here...Constituations are man made script...while Holy texts are God made scripe and true there is room for interpertation in both that is why you will find far right and far left anf somewhere in between...
Posts: 2691 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by _Masrawi_: your eyes ok ki$$7eaven?
yes elhamdulilha...
good ... i had a friend who used to roll her eyes all the time. one time they just stuck up there. u be careful now.
LOL!!! I may not post here a lot but I do read & I have to tell you,I get a great laugh out of some of the stuff you write....
Posts: 895 | From: Atlanta, GA. | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
As I went through most of the replies, people kind a went off on religious attacks and name calling. That's why, I always believe that never discuss religion with Middle Easterners, or Arabs since the answer would be always the same; if you are a Muslim, everyone agrees, if you believe in any other religion, you are a "Kaffir" as it was mentioned several times. These people will never understand or accept anyone else, and that's why, the whole earth in such a miss today. I do not want to generalize since I know for a fact that many educated Moslems will not talk this way cause this kind of language is only based on ignorance. Back to the real subject; In Egypt, if you are a Muslim male, you can marry a Christian woman, and the whole country will celebrate for converting what they call a "kaffir" to Islam. If a Moslem woman marries a Christian man, then hell will brake lose, it is totally unacceptable, and most likely she could be abandoned by her family, community, and even killed in some cases. The idea is totally wrong both ways since there will be many differences, sacrifices, and challenges by both families and communities. People should stick with their own to avoid the nightmare because it will not work unless they are truly in deep, strong love, and have the guts to face the challenges. This could means leaving the whole country and their families once and for all in order to buy their peace. The bottom line is; most people are not up to this challenge, its not worth it. Please stay away from the attacks, and keep it civilized. Thanks
Posts: 132 | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Merima: Some days ago while waiting in a queue, I accidentally overheard a conversation between two women. One of them was telling the other that her daughter was going to marry a guy with Moroccan origin. And the other one really asked wheather it was tough for the family to adapt to the fact that the guy was Muslim I canīt tell you, how stunned I was.
As far as I can see, there seem to be some people on this board being involved in a cross-religious relationship.
My question: Do these couples face many problems from their environment, like family, friends, coleagues, etc.? If we take Egypt as an example: Is it more acceptable for a man to marry a woman with another religion? What if an Egyptian Muslim woman decides to marry a non-Muslim? And what about the non-Muslim partner? Do they feel kind of a "pressure" to "adjust" to the new situation and convert?
(I know that if we just look at it from a religious point of view that such relationships are much more "acceptable" for men. Thatīs why I would like you to look at it from a societal point of view - thatīs why I did not post this topic in the "Religion" section Last remark: Iīm very well aware that Iīm generalizing here, so feel free to do the same Itīs not my intention to insult anybody, so please do not feel attacked by my question.
Thanks a lot for your comments
my dear, As they said to you mentality is important than nationality but, something is lost here, that the country background and culture may forum like 10%of yr character. from the Islamic prospective, it is accepted for a man to marry a Christian or Jewish woman, but this dont go for women, and in this case(if she got married with a contract) we call her morteda or apostasy, she is not a Muslim any more for example, my mums step mother is a Christian woman, and after getting married to my grandpa and she said that she converted to Islam, after a while she was back to her religion. 10 years later, she is Muslim. However, Christian get married to Muslim men for only two reasons, financial reasons or love reasons but not for the sick of marriage itself, and the church in Egypt gives these women(who chooses muslim hubands) really hard times...
Posts: 968 | From: www | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Hey Watchdog, I donīt have the impression that the replies are offensive and meant to attack the other participants. Actually, we are quite civilized in this very thread, arenīt we ;-)) Or did I miss something? Since religion is a basic pillar of society (in Egypt), you cannot discuss something like marriage without taking it into consideration. And when it comes to religion people can get too "passionate" since it is a very emotional topic. But I absolutely agree: Respect is the key in a discussion;-)
Now back to the real subject: Thanks a lot for your reply. It is very interesting to learn about the attitude towards cross-religious couples in Egypt. Itīs very much the same in Bosnia. One difference may be that even the son marrying a woman from another religion will sometimes face the hell on earth. I sometimes even think that it does not really matter that the bride-to-be or the groom-to-be is a good person. The only thing that counts is their religious affliation. And again, I agree that itīs much easier when both partners have the same religious backbround. But the troble is that itīs not always easy to fall in love with the "right" person,i.e. person with the "right" religion.
I wish ES had different Graemlins(Emoticons) would love to send Flowers.. What date did u set for ur wedding?
Jannah
Thank you Jannah. January 1, God willing. Just formalities that day....hopefully a party in the summer after my busy season at work (coming up soon)
Youīre going to marry on January 1?!? "Mabrouk"! Or donīt you say that for a wedding but only for a newborn child? Anyway, I sincerely congratulate and wish you and your husband-to-be all the best Posts: 173 | From: Germany | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Merima: Shouldnīt religion be more "flexible" so that we can adjust it to our lifes instead adjusting our lifes to religion? I still donīt like this idea of accepting religion or being "kicked" out. There should be a happy medium. I know, I know, "real" Muslims are going to give me hell for this
WHICH RELIGION ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT NOW...SINCE REAL RELIGION ( FAITH) NO MATTER WHAT YOU NAME IT ..IS VERY TOLERANT...AND UNDERSTANDING... IT IS THE PEOPLE'S UNDERSTANDING OF THE RELIGION THAT IS NOT.. [/QB]
Hi Tiger, my example was about Islam but as Masrawi said it in his last comment, you can apply it to any (other) religion.
Posts: 173 | From: Germany | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Merima: Hey Watchdog, I donīt have the impression that the replies are offensive and meant to attack the other participants. Actually, we are quite civilized in this very thread, arenīt we ;-)) Or did I miss something? Since religion is a basic pillar of society (in Egypt), you cannot discuss something like marriage without taking it into consideration. And when it comes to religion people can get too "passionate" since it is a very emotional topic. But I absolutely agree: Respect is the key in a discussion;-)
Now back to the real subject: Thanks a lot for your reply. It is very interesting to learn about the attitude towards cross-religious couples in Egypt. Itīs very much the same in Bosnia. One difference may be that even the son marrying a woman from another religion will sometimes face the hell on earth. I sometimes even think that it does not really matter that the bride-to-be or the groom-to-be is a good person. The only thing that counts is their religious affliation. And again, I agree that itīs much easier when both partners have the same religious backbround. But the troble is that itīs not always easy to fall in love with the "right" person,i.e. person with the "right" religion.
Salam
Most of the replies above were OK, its just calling every non-moslim "Kaffir" is offensive. Anyway, let's move forward. It sounds like the women in Bosnia have the same voice as the man, or at least close, unlike Egypt. I also agree with your statement that " itīs not always easy to fall in love with the "right" person,i.e. person with the "right" religion, you are 100% right, it happend to me, but, I had the power to say no to marriage. Regards.
Posts: 132 | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Merima: Hey Watchdog, I donīt have the impression that the replies are offensive and meant to attack the other participants. Actually, we are quite civilized in this very thread, arenīt we ;-)) Or did I miss something? Since religion is a basic pillar of society (in Egypt), you cannot discuss something like marriage without taking it into consideration. And when it comes to religion people can get too "passionate" since it is a very emotional topic. But I absolutely agree: Respect is the key in a discussion;-)
Now back to the real subject: Thanks a lot for your reply. It is very interesting to learn about the attitude towards cross-religious couples in Egypt. Itīs very much the same in Bosnia. One difference may be that even the son marrying a woman from another religion will sometimes face the hell on earth. I sometimes even think that it does not really matter that the bride-to-be or the groom-to-be is a good person. The only thing that counts is their religious affliation. And again, I agree that itīs much easier when both partners have the same religious backbround. But the troble is that itīs not always easy to fall in love with the "right" person,i.e. person with the "right" religion.
Salam
Merima,
Don't bother with WatchDog ... he doesn't bother reading and then comes in with his meaningless and baseless statements. He thinks having lived in the US for awhile, he's become more civilized than the rest of us. A prime example of the complexities with Egyptians living abroad ...
Posts: 2049 | From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Merima: Youīre going to marry on January 1?!? "Mabrouk"! Or donīt you say that for a wedding but only for a newborn child? Anyway, I sincerely congratulate and wish you and your husband-to-be all the best
Thank you. IF I marry on January 1, I get free fireworks each year for our anniversary. Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Masrawi: I don't know what's with you and I??? You attack me every time I post a reply, and am very tired of it. You have no right to accuse me of anything; you don't know anything about me to accuse me of complexities. Read above, the word "Kaffir" is everywhere; did I put this in on my own? Stop the suck-ups and grow up, people like you on this board are the cause of these childish discussions, grow up. If you have something decent to say, or may positively contribute, say it, if you dont, then shut up.
Posts: 132 | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Watchdog33: Masrawi: I don't know what's with you and I??? You attack me every time I post a reply, and am very tired of it. You have no right to accuse me of anything; you don't know anything about me to accuse me of complexities. Read above, the word "Kaffir" is everywhere; did I put this in on my own? Stop the suck-ups and grow up, people like you on this board are the cause of these childish discussions, grow up. If you have something decent to say, or may positively contribute, say it, if you dont, then shut up.
First of, the word kaffir was mentioned as a bad example of what ignorance leads to and not as a form of "people kind a went off on religious attacks and name calling". Secondly, there were no personal attacks ... on the contrary, the discussion was very civilized . So, that means u didn't read any of the posts but simply skimmed them real quick. Now, that would have been ok with a certain level of intelligence, which is obviously not the case here ... having said that:
I do have something to say ... read before u bombard us with your absurdities.
posted
Ok Masrawi, I am not going to go over this again cause am tired of argument, so, being the "complex" Egyptian I am I say " El Hak Allya ya seedna, waddi rassak abosha"
Posts: 132 | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Watchdog33: Salam [/qb]
Most of the replies above were OK, its just calling every non-moslim "Kaffir" is offensive. Anyway, let's move forward. It sounds like the women in Bosnia have the same voice as the man, or at least close, unlike Egypt. I also agree with your statement that " itīs not always easy to fall in love with the "right" person,i.e. person with the "right" religion, you are 100% right, it happend to me, but, I had the power to say no to marriage. Regards. [/QB][/QUOTE]
I donīt think that Bosnian women have the same voice as the men, but they stand up for themselves.
Wow, you "had the power to say no" to a cross-religious marriage! I donīt know if I should be deeply impressed or just sad about it. (Sorry, if I got too personal here - you donīt have to reply)
Posts: 173 | From: Germany | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Watchdog33: Ok Masrawi, I am not going to go over this again cause am tired of argument, so, being the "complex" Egyptian I am I say " El Hak Allya ya seedna, waddi rassak abosha"
No harm done.
just easy with the generalizations man ...
Posts: 2049 | From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Merima: I donīt think that Bosnian women have the same voice as the men, but they stand up for themselves.
Wow, you "had the power to say no" to a cross-religious marriage! I donīt know if I should be deeply impressed or just sad about it. (Sorry, if I got too personal here - you donīt have to reply) [/QB]
Merima; No apologies needed, you are not being too personal at all. without going into details, the reason I did not marry her because I was affraid for her life, her family would have killed her,it was not easy.
Posts: 132 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Cross - religious couples.... can succeed if the are open-minded and understanding. They must have excellent communication skills to be able to express themselves and accept each other. A lots of work...If one is religious and another one is not, it's much easier to blend... as one always care less...
The fact that someone is a Muslim or Christian on the paper, doesn't make him a Muslim or Christian in the real life.
Posts: 989 | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Watchdog33: Masrawi: I don't know what's with you and I??? You attack me every time I post a reply, and am very tired of it. You have no right to accuse me of anything; you don't know anything about me to accuse me of complexities. Read above, the word "Kaffir" is everywhere; did I put this in on my own? Stop the suck-ups and grow up, people like you on this board are the cause of these childish discussions, grow up. If you have something decent to say, or may positively contribute, say it, if you dont, then shut up.
First of, the word kaffir was mentioned as a bad example of what ignorance leads to and not as a form of "people kind a went off on religious attacks and name calling". Secondly, there were no personal attacks ... on the contrary, the discussion was very civilized . So, that means u didn't read any of the posts but simply skimmed them real quick. Now, that would have been ok with a certain level of intelligence, which is obviously not the case here ... having said that:
I do have something to say ... read before u bombard us with your absurdities.
Sincerely,
Masrawi
Masrawi..I second that...
Posts: 2691 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Since this topic is about opinions I have to add mine.My personal opinion....I do not agree with cross religious marriages...why?....too many complications....life is complicated enough.It's all sooo exciting and adventurous because of the differances between the two.Then 1 year down the line reality starts to bite....kids come...inlaws nag....blah blah blah.The usual crap!If you have the balls and feel you can make a success....go ahead but be very aware of the complications...especially at the time we live in....don't kid yourself into believing that things will change and that people will eventually accept things the way they are.
Posts: 723 | From: South Africa | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Natashiah: Since this topic is about opinions I have to add mine.My personal opinion....I do not agree with cross religious marriages...why?....too many complications....life is complicated enough.It's all sooo exciting and adventurous because of the differances between the two.Then 1 year down the line reality starts to bite....kids come...inlaws nag....blah blah blah.The usual crap!If you have the balls and feel you can make a success....go ahead but be very aware of the complications...especially at the time we live in....don't kid yourself into believing that things will change and that people will eventually accept things the way they are.
I agree with you 100%. A friend of mine who was a Coptic Orthodox got married to a Catholic Christian girl. They had fights for years every Sunday over which church they should go to, not including the fights over the kids baptism whether they should be baptized Catholic or Orthodox. We are talking about 2 Christians who believe in the same God and share the same values and beliefs. Now imagine the same situation between a Moslem and a Christian? What a nightmare this can be. There is a hugh difference between dreams and reality ..
Posts: 132 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Wathdog: Hence, the importance of the mentalities being the same ... in other words, the weight each one puts on different issues. So, in the case that u mentioned, these two people are religious, and therefore would not succeed in a cross-religion marriage. Had they been non-religious, then they would have worked around these minor complications.
Posts: 2049 | From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
You could compare it to child-rearing in a way...to prove the *mentality* issue.
One parent believes in spanking all the time; one parent would rather die than to even look at their child in a cross manner. That is definitely something *I* would be arguing over myself, and which could create a lot of discord in a marriage.... again, something to talk about *before* marriage, *before* kids, *before* going to church or the mosque...
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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