I was reading a thread in "Living in Egypt" where a certain male member said to a female member that she was a bad wife. It seemed to me that he intended this to be the gravest of all insults - something that I have trouble understanding - especially since she was not his wife.
My contact with Egyptians and Egypt has given me the impression that this is indeed the most seriously damaging insult you could tell a woman in Egypt - have you some experiences of this?
And if this is true, what does it say about the cultural and social norms that are being pressured on Egyptian women - "if you are not a good wife then you are nothing!" ??
And also it seems that Egyptians have no trouble putting their noses in other people's marriages...where I come from this is not so common, and certainly no one thinks of insulting someone in this way.
quote:Originally posted by Anthropos: Hello everybody
I was reading a thread in "Living in Egypt" where a certain male member said to a female member that she was a bad wife. It seemed to me that he intended this to be the gravest of all insults - something that I have trouble understanding - especially since she was not his wife.
My contact with Egyptians and Egypt has given me the impression that this is indeed the most seriously damaging insult you could tell a woman in Egypt - have you some experiences of this?
And if this is true, what does it say about the cultural and social norms that are being pressured on Egyptian women - "if you are not a good wife then you are nothing!" ??
And also it seems that Egyptians have no trouble putting their noses in other people's marriages...where I come from this is not so common, and certainly no one thinks of insulting someone in this way.
Any thoughts?
Health of marriages inside your extended family effect your happiness.
Health of extended families effect the alley health and happiness.
Health of your alley effect your neighborhood and your happiness.
Health of your neighborhood effect your city and your happiness.
Health of your city effect the region and your happiness.
Health of your region effect the ethinicities and your happiness.
Health of your ethnicities effec the nation and your happiness.
The sense of individualism doesn't surpass the collective health or identity like it does in the west.
Its different in Egypt, its not Greece, not the UK, not the EU and its not the USA.
Its different.
Everything in Egyptian society and culture rests on the marriage. And the marriage is defined by the wife's efforts. And her efforts alone.
Its different.
Posts: 5744 | From: Minneapolis, Mn USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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Thank you Sonomod for your comment. Especially about how marriage is defined by the wife's efforts and how marriage is connected to all aspects of society - this reminds me about theories, anthropological and sociological, on how women become the symbols of culture. For example, in many cultures it is considered worse if a woman marries a foreigner than when a man marries a foreigner. And I think that this is also the case in Egypt. Also this brings me to the power aspect of marriage. If it is ok that an Egyptian man marries a foreign woman is it because it is a given thing that he will have the "power" in the relationship, hence control the culture of it?
Posts: 2184 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Anthropos: For example, in many cultures it is considered worse if a woman marries a foreigner than when a man marries a foreigner.
Heh heh. That's at least the case in my family.
This is a very interesting thread, by the way. I would like to hear more about how the wife is responsible for the marriage in Egyptian culture...
And do the husbands *appreciate* this or *take it for granted?* Are roles changing any?
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Anthropos: If it is ok that an Egyptian man marries a foreign woman is it because it is a given thing that he will have the "power" in the relationship, hence control the culture of it?
Bullseye. What these cassette tape Mullahs forget is the fact that often times men married to foreign women leave the marriage and leave the kids behind with the foreign wife.
If the woman was Egyptian she'd hold onto the kids for dear life, would kill to keep her children and the children grow up in her culture (even if abroad) and he has little to say about it.
The cassette tape Mullahs have it completely in reverse, its the total opposite.
My community has a massive amount of inter-culture and inter-faith marriages. We're the second in the nation for these type of marriages. And a number of mail order brides in the state. Women tie their children to their culture due to the fact that they are the primary care givers.
You can't escape your mother's traditions.
I think its jealousy on the part of these men, a strange want to perserve the "purity" of their race. Yet, there is a prevelant belief that the man contributes the embryo to the woman's womb, that a child is entirely composed of the father's traits, genes, DNA. If they would apply this genetic superiority to its fullest then these cassette tape Mullahs would be more against a man marrying and creating children with foreigners instead of the reverse. Its really stupid. Often persons who hold this belief are very zenophobic. Posts: 5744 | From: Minneapolis, Mn USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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In many societies it is expected that women preserve their ethnic identity because they are considered to be its center and core. It is therefore important for the maintenance of the symbolic identity of the group to control whom the woman marries and what group her children will belong to. For example it was illegal for white women in South-Africa to sleep with men from other ethnic groups during the Apartheid.
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The reason why women are thought to preserve and guardkeep the culture is because they raise the next generation. Women are responsible for the upbringing of children, hence the maintenance of culture.
One can even say that motherhood strengthens the boundaries between men and women because women are defined first as mothers while men are defined as men, then as fathers. In this way men have more freedom and liberty to take up and adapt to new ways and customs without losing their culture.
Posts: 2184 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Anthropos: In this way men have more freedom and liberty to take up and adapt to new ways and customs without losing their culture.
I have to disagree with you completely in this measure.
Women have much more freedom and flexibility with instilling culture in their children.
This is how women have the upperhand.
Its not an entirely oppressive system. You must take what you have at your disposal and rethink it.
Women are immensely adaptive if they think like women, Men are the ones who are incapable of "thinking out of the box". Men are the ones trapped by culture, not women.
Posts: 5744 | From: Minneapolis, Mn USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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I think that at some levels your are right. But I think that it is right to say that this freedom of women is conditioned by the society they live in.
To me, change seems only to happen if there is some space in the culture and society to make it happen or allow it to happen. A good example is maybe the case with homosexuality. When does society allow people to come out of the closet? The film Brokeback Mountain is a good example of a society that was not ready for that, not even in the mind of the gay people involved.
I totally agree with you Sonomod that with every generation and every person culture is rethaught - after all culture is not a static thing, it is fluid and people renegotiate their position all the time, be it in Scandinavia or Saudi-Arabia.
About whether women or men are more adaptive to new ways I don't know. Yet I seem to start thinking about immigrants in Europe and how women, especially female muslims in Euopre, seem to be "stuck" in their "home country" while the men are learning the language etc. This is maybe again just a question of power.
Posts: 2184 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Anthropos: Yet I seem to start thinking about immigrants in Europe and how women, especially female muslims in Euopre, seem to be "stuck" in their "home country" while the men are learning the language etc. This is maybe again just a question of power.
I also believe that immigrants go to an extreme.
You know what a haddad is? its a frontier. You need a strong frontier to feel safe behind it. And EU is a volatile place for Muslims right now, it doesn't feel safe or welcoming for a Muslim.
Believe it or not fellow Muslimahs exert a great deal of peer-pressure on fellow Muslimahs. THe men, Muslims are often at odds with the matriarch of the household or community to less the contraints on younger Muslimahs.
Again its not Male Dominance over Females, its the elder Female dominating the younger females.
It rarely is a male perogative. You got to get this "controlling Male Arab" character out of your head. It really isn't that way. Posts: 5744 | From: Minneapolis, Mn USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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Yes that is something for me to consider and reconsider Sonomod. I am, like everybody else, full of stereotypes and prejudice that unfortunately filters in my brain through various media and images that I know are not very "arab-friendly". But that is a discussion for another thread.
I am only stating these things from my perspective, that maybe is completely ethnocentric but to me this seems to reflect basic female oppression imposed on women by women themselves. This is feminism 101. Women take part in their own oppression. The thing to analyze is the bigger context and discourse that is making them do this.
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For example - if these elder females have been taught that they are only good as wives ect. how can we expect them to change this attutide towards other women?
Posts: 2184 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Anthropos: For example - if these elder females have been taught that they are only good as wives ect. how can we expect them to change this attutide towards other women?
you don't change anyone. You change how you deal with that person. You satisfy their needs and help them deal with change.
What feminism 101 didn't teach you is that it has less to do with culture than to do with poverty.
Most poverty stricken countries have this type of matriarchal dictatorship.
Not to say that these matriarchs are bad people, they are just trying to protect their family. Its the only way they know.
Posts: 5744 | From: Minneapolis, Mn USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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Indeed - it is very important to consider poverty. In this context I have often thought about how charity, and maybe even feminism!, is the luxury of the rich.
Yet your comment leaves me somewhat disillusioned and sad. If I, or anybody, cannot have an affect on people (hence, change them) how can change come about at all?
With this I don't mean that I want to impose my way of thinking etc. on other people - I am just thinking about interactions between people, be they rich or poor.
But here again, I must think of power and power relations. Being from Europe, something that I didn't have control over or didn't choose, puts me in a power position, towards many Egyptian people for example. I think immigration laws is a excellent testiment of that.
This brings me back to those "elderly females". If you think about it, what power cards do they hold after all? Culture maybe is the only one. This is indeed a complicated matter.
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Yet your comment leaves me somewhat disillusioned and sad. If I, or anybody, cannot have an affect on people (hence, change them) how can change come about at all?
To use a old cliche, "Change is most effective when it comes from within".
Its not our place to change anyone but ourselves.
Let the Egyptians, North Africans change themselves.
Its really out of line and morbid; "colonial" infact to think we change anyone.
Posts: 5744 | From: Minneapolis, Mn USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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This brings me back to those "elderly females". If you think about it, what power cards do they hold after all? Culture maybe is the only one. This is indeed a complicated matter.
Culture is the strongest card of all. In any culture. And yes these women are the strongest of all. Posts: 5744 | From: Minneapolis, Mn USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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I wanted to talk about something else. I have read some anthopological articles and theories that stated that in the arab world the woman is considered "inwards" while the man is "outwards". I have always thought this so strange and I have really doubted these articles. Yet the last time I was in Egypt I rented an apartment with a man - and I found myself being pulled "inwards".
So is this true? Is the man the public face of everything in Egypt? The marriage, the family? And if the wife stepped to the front what would happen?
Posts: 2184 | Registered: Oct 2005
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One thing to consider about the original message of this thread (why it's a huge insult to a woman to be called a bad wife) is the religous aspect. Women are considered the completion of a mans religion. She is the one who is responsible for the home, the kids the way things run. It is the mother that is the most influencial in a young egyptians life, weather male or female. They are taught from birth that the most kindness is to go to the mother AND his wife. If a wife isn't living up to her duties, it would be a huge insult. For her religion expects her to play the role of wife, mother and homemaker first, before career. She is not oppressed, but respected and protected. To be a bad wife isn't just an insult...it's saying they aren't doing what they should on a religious basis as well.
Posts: 100 | From: Fredericksburg, VA, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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A man has a great responsibility in his marriage from the religion. There are many hadiths about what is expected of him. The half the religion can be seen as marriage, in general, and how one treats the relationship. There are a lot of aspects of Egyptian culture, of course, that don't come from the religion. So its important to understand both. An individual that wants to comment on another's marriage is a rude one. If the man and woman have problems in their marriage there are ways to deal with that, and if it doesn't work, they can get divorced. If someone started a sentence, in talking to me, with "YOU ARE A BAD...," fill in the blank, I think I would raise one eyebrow and tell them where to go. Posts: 1161 | From: wo xiang xiao bian ji si le | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Anthropos: Hello everybody
I was reading a thread in "Living in Egypt" where a certain male member said to a female member that she was a bad wife. It seemed to me that he intended this to be the gravest of all insults - something that I have trouble understanding - especially since she was not his wife.
My contact with Egyptians and Egypt has given me the impression that this is indeed the most seriously damaging insult you could tell a woman in Egypt - have you some experiences of this?
And if this is true, what does it say about the cultural and social norms that are being pressured on Egyptian women - "if you are not a good wife then you are nothing!" ??
And also it seems that Egyptians have no trouble putting their noses in other people's marriages...where I come from this is not so common, and certainly no one thinks of insulting someone in this way.
Any thoughts?
hello anthropos how are you? that insult was directed to me, and i thought it was hilarious. being a bad family member in egypt is bad in every aspect. weather its being a bad father, or mother, or sister, or son, or husband or wife. family is precious for most egyptians, and not playing the role that is expected of you will make you loose a lot of respect. HOWEVER, i do think that idiot's insult to me was way exagerated. i mean yeah its important to be a good wife, but not to the extent that you hurl such an insult to someone you dont know. but the thing is that guy's true face was uncovered by three female ES member, with be being one of them. he knew that he was in trouble, and thats why he started hurling insults right and left calliing me a bad wife, and my kingdom a grandma!
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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