I used to read this forum long time, i learnt a lot about egyptian customs... i wanna excuse me because my english is poor but it is not my first language.
Well, my history is simple..I got marriage (by marriage contract and i dont know if it is the same an orfi marriage) almost 2 years ago with an egyptian guy when i was visiting egypt that time.. we were in love each other , we wanted to got marry by court but i couldn't because i was married before in my country, even if i got my divorce some monthes ago than my visit, for the laws of my country i couldn't get marry again after 9 months from my divorce...
After that, living far each other, he didnt want to travel to my country and i couldn't travel to egypt, all these made our relationship broke.. we stoped talking about 8 monthes.. he have done his normal life, while i was so depressed, he didnt care about what i was feeling or doing when i was in my country, so i decided to stop the relationship about 9 months ago. Now, i decided to continue with my life, i wanna divorce him but i dont know what i can do. That is the reason i write this forum.. i will apreciate any advice, answer or comment about it... What will happen if he inscrit the contract in court???? I love Egypt, i want to visit the country again may in a couple of months later, i want to live there, i dont want to say him what i will travel to Egypt and i want to divorce him before my travel I dont know what will happen in my life. i dont want to have any problems because this marriage. i want to do everything in good way..because that i want to get divorce. Anybody knows about the procedures to get divorce for marriage contract or orfi marriage??? Where can I find a good lawyer to do it by net??... is it expensive??? What will happen if i want to get marry again there??? Please... if someone can i help me with any advice or information????
I'd be grateful for any advice. thank you in advance!!!!!!!
Posts: 16 | From: Egypt | Registered: Sep 2006
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if it's orfi (i guess it is ) all you need is just to put that marriage paper in a glass add some water and drink 1\2 of it and the other to the graveyard
if it's LEGAL that should need you a lawyer get a friend from Egypt to recommend you 1 but sure your husband there will know about it
welcome to ES
good luck
Posts: 201 | From: A To : Z | Registered: Jul 2006
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If you were not free to maryr when you took out the contract then your married is invalid I would have thought. but I do not know if there are any penalties for marrying illegally.
If there was only a marriage contract and you have the only copy, tear it up, you are divorced.
If there were other copies then you need to find out what happened to them. If nothing then thye need to be destroyed. If however this contract was taken to the court and registered then you need to get a divorce.
Get the advice of a lawyer, you can find reocmmended lists on the Embassy website. In Egypt divorce is in the hands of the man, if he does not agree then you can have a problem lasting years.
-------------------- Jane Akshar UK Co-owner of www.flatsinluxor.co.uk Appartments and Tours in Luxor Posts: 2791 | From: www.flatsinluxor.co.uk, Luxor, Egypt | Registered: Jan 2003
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Akshar.. i was free, my divorce was 3 monthes before when i did my marriage contract in Egypt.
I dont have the unique copy in my hands, i have just a photocopy, so i think i need to speak with my husband and pray what he wants to send me or detroyed it.
posted
Sorry I misunderstood your post and apologies for my awful typing.
To be honest the tourist has the whip hand, so I suspect your husbnad could do little to upset your life. Only if you wanted to get married again would it become an issue and I also suspect if you turned up at the embassy with your foreign documents and ended up getting a proper marriage recognised abroad your past orfi would never be an issue.
only if you wanted to marry Orfi again might you have problems but that is not legal advice that is my opinion
-------------------- Jane Akshar UK Co-owner of www.flatsinluxor.co.uk Appartments and Tours in Luxor Posts: 2791 | From: www.flatsinluxor.co.uk, Luxor, Egypt | Registered: Jan 2003
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if it didnt go to the courts then it is not really legal anyway right? it isnt registered in anyway, as i understood her. She has a copy, he has a copy, and probably the lawyer they got it done at but if it did not go to the courts then it isnt official so, shouldnt be a problem cause you were never really married( legally) I had the same paper, that is the way it was explained to me, if it didnt go to the courts then it doesnt count.
quote:Originally posted by mysticheart: if it didnt go to the courts then it is not really legal anyway right? it isnt registered in anyway, as i understood her. She has a copy, he has a copy, and probably the lawyer they got it done at but if it did not go to the courts then it isnt official so, shouldnt be a problem cause you were never really married( legally) I had the same paper, that is the way it was explained to me, if it didnt go to the courts then it doesnt count.
But in retaliation he could take the "orfi" papers and register them in the local court or even in Cairo. Making them legally married. He doesn't need her permission nor could she find out about it unless she tried to remarry or he told her he had done so.
So in the spirit of things, you don't really need to sign the "orfi" papers, you just need two false witnesses and a register or lawyer to doctor up the paperwork.
Posts: 991 | From: My daughter is a stalker | Registered: Jul 2006
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lol well then i guess i could technically be married and not know it at least through orfi. I tore up my paper that was done but not taken to the courts. I have no idea what he did with his( my ex fiance). I am assuming he didnt take them to the courts as he has never told me anything about it. His lawyer told me we both had to go to the courts together.
First of all don't act desperate. He doesn't posses you, if he married you Orfi that only tells what a hell of the promiscuous Egyptian man he is. You are still not his object therefore no need to be afraid that now since he has the Orfi paper and probably tons of other Orfi wives, you will be subject to his retaliation.
I suggest you to be smart cookie lady and hire a respectable lawyer (IN YOUR COUNTRY) who speaks fluently both languages, and talk to attorney to pay him/her in monthly payments for his services. They usually accept it.
If you can't afford it, find another Egyptian boyfriend and tell him to fix the divorce for you. He can do it out of love for free, plus he can prove his devotion by making sure you are free and available so he can offically marry you. When you find a new boyfriend, you can show your ex Orfi man that he is not the God despite laws which protect him all the way for having sex beyond the marriage and having 0 %responsibilities towards you.
You also, next time, don't marry Orfi. Either don't marry at all or marry like everyone else - officially and in front of his family and world to see. Then if you don't like it, rather divorce and get something out of it, then divorce and get nothing, plus get labeled as some foreign female who did not even deserve to get a party, engagement ring, mahr and everything else, above all - you got to get respect you deserve according to your Culture and his culture too ( if you care for his culture. ) If you don't care about his Culture demend 100% respect according to your culture and whatever they think of you - is none of your business as long as you yourself hold a man who respects you and treat you like Princesss according to your own values and culture you were raised in. You can also work on both options I gave you simulteniously - and see what happens.
Posts: 989 | Registered: Aug 2004
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Thanks Sharon Stone for your comment and you are right, i deserve more than an orfi marriage and i dont want to marry again for a while. I want to travel soon to Egypt, i'm in love of Egypt and the culture. i hope i dont have anyproblem with the orfi marriage, this time i wanna enjoy my trip and who knows, may i will stay there... thanks guys for comments and advices
Posts: 16 | From: Egypt | Registered: Sep 2006
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It was my understanding that Orfi is not a legal marriage.
we wanted to got marry by court but i couldn't because i was married before in my country, even if i got my divorce some monthes ago than my visit, for the laws of my country i couldn't get marry again after 9 months from my divorce...
These words say your marriage is not valid Orfi or not. Unless you are both legal to marry in both countries, it is not valid. Check out the Egyptian Consulate website. I have found the laws of marriage very clear there.
-------------------- شكرا و أللام عليكم شيبى Posts: 2133 | From: Redneckland | Registered: Oct 2006
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Orfi marriages are not legal unless you have them done in courthouse and registered. Orfi marriages give the "wife" no legal rights and is often used to justify a sexual relationship and to legitimize it so it's not a "sin". Since it's not a fully "legal" marriage, I would just contact the attorney that drew it up and ask how to void it.
Posts: 100 | From: Fredericksburg, VA, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Read Wikipedia about Urfi marriage. It explains it well, as there are many types of Urfi marriage. Non are legal, and I dont think they have been able to be registered in any court between Egyptian and foreigner for long time - at least thats what my friend- a lawyer told me- Some men have so many of the contracts they loose track - one man I know has 76. And several who have ready prepared stores of contracts, already witnessed and stamped ( just the date, womans name and passport number is waiting to be filled in) They dont always show the woman the contract, they just keep it for any police checks that may be made if he is seen with her. I always thought you just tore it up when you fed up with each other, but there is a great mystery around this subject and many mis conceptions and mis information, so AMRSSNOWANGEL advice the best - ask the lawyer who made it - that is assuming he is not the mans best friend and will feed you a lot of c**p once he checked if the man still wants to keep the contract!
Posts: 319 | From: egypt/uk | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Tutandmoan: Read Wikipedia about Urfi marriage. It explains it well, as there are many types of Urfi marriage. Non are legal, and I dont think they have been able to be registered in any court between Egyptian and foreigner for long time - at least thats what my friend- a lawyer told me- Some men have so many of the contracts they loose track - one man I know has 76. And several who have ready prepared stores of contracts, already witnessed and stamped ( just the date, womans name and passport number is waiting to be filled in) They dont always show the woman the contract, they just keep it for any police checks that may be made if he is seen with her. I always thought you just tore it up when you fed up with each other, but there is a great mystery around this subject and many mis conceptions and mis information, so AMRSSNOWANGEL advice the best - ask the lawyer who made it - that is assuming he is not the mans best friend and will feed you a lot of c**p once he checked if the man still wants to keep the contract!
Orfi marriages CAN and ARE still registered in a court and are legal. There are also Orfi that are NOT registered in the courts, the white paper is torn up for divorce. With the unregistered there is no way of knowing how many a man (or a woman) can have. Registering the marriage in a court limits this.
Its also not true to say that it cant be registered in court if both or either party is not 'free to marry' as this DOES still happen with many women who marry Orfi while still being legally married in their own countries, these marriages cannot be just 'void' and still have to go through a proper divorce, even though the marriage is not really legal and are bigamous. If its court registered then you have to divorce through the courts.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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Ok I am really confused about all this marriage stuff. I am understanding and not understanding all at the same time. My finacee and I have talked about getting married but I do not know what has to be done and all that, as it is way different when someone gets married in the U.S. I am divorced so I guess that could be a problem when I come to Egypt. Can someone clearly explain everything to me. I am lost and cinfused about all this
Posts: 31 | Registered: Oct 2006
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It IS confusing! But basically there are 2 types of marriage. The simple one is the legally recognised one internationally, but how to go about it varies slightly between different countries of origin of the foreigner/s concerned. For this the rules should be on your embassy web site. Divorce is not a problem as long as you have your divorce papers legalised and you have been divorced more than 4 months prior to marriage.
The complicated ones are the NIKAH URFI - several variations of it- and it is only recognised in Egypt if you do it in Egypt. URFI translates as "common tradition". The Un Official Urfi marriage is called ZAWAG AL-URFI. This is not performed by a cleric, but a lawyer and is usually used by foreign visitors. There is no "divorce by law", just torn contract on ending this union and the man is not responsible for the woman at all.If the husband or wife dies the other cannot inherit anything. You just find a lawyer, make a contract of introduction and thats it. Then there are the Official Urfis. NIKAH MU'TAH. (originally from the pre islamic period). The man is not responsible to support the woman, and the woman does not have to "obey" the man, and there is usually a time limit set on the union. The couple cannot inherit from each other, and the marriage does not count towards the maximum number of 4 allowed wives, so the man can have as many as he desires. He must still give a dowry, and on divorcing, the woman must still observe the islamic IDDAH - 4 month waiting period before she is allowed to re marry NIKAH MISYAR (or Traveller marriage) - an innovation by the famous Salafi scholar Bin Baaz This is most un desirable! It provides legal sexual interaction, but the woman must be totally independant of the man, he does not have to provide anything for her or any children, but he can travel to her residence any time he chooses to be alone with her.She usually lives alone, or with her family. It has no set time limit, and is well practised by wealthy middle eastern men travelling between countries, and many egyptian married men who work in other countries, and it is possible today to do it on line or over telephone! These are some forms I know of, but as with most things of this type, may not be 100% correct for every country, and Im sure there are several more types out there.
Posts: 319 | From: egypt/uk | Registered: Sep 2006
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I am really confused now.....! I went to Egypt in August and was told to sign some papers (all in arabic) so that it would be ok for my partner to stay in the same apartment as me, these papers had been written before I went to Egypt all I had to do was sign them. I did sign them as I didn't want any problems from the police or security whilst I stayed there, didn't sign then in front of any witness, and too be honest foolish I may be I didn't know what I was signing apart from what my partner translated for me. I was never given a copy even though I did ask him for one as I have a good friend in the UK who can speak/read arabic who said they would translate it for me. As I understand my partner still has this contract and he kept on saying that now I have signed this I am his wife. I did 'joke' with him what would happen if I wanted to divorce him and was told that you just have to set fire to the paper and it is all over! I am now really confused! We want to marry in the embassy can anyone advise me what will happen if we do, from what I have heard and read it is done so that things are legal - or maybe I am wrong, is it like the marriages that we have in UK registry office? Please can anyone advise?
Posts: 1244 | From: we come in peace | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Miss Sharm: I am really confused now.....! I went to Egypt in August and was told to sign some papers (all in arabic) so that it would be ook for my partner to stay in the same apartment as me, these papers had been written before I went to Egypt all I had to do was sign them.
I can't believe you would sign papers in a foreign country written in a foreign language without taking them to be translated independently. YOU COULD HAVE BEEN SIGNING YOURSELF INTO SLAVERY!
Posts: 333 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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I have a question for you, lady`s. If any official institution in your own country should want you to sign papers in, let`s say : Swahili, should you sign them? Why on earth are you doing this? Anything can have been written in those papers... and signing it, means agree with it. I am surprised how many women can be that careless, totally depending on what somebody you barely know, tells you. And be sure that he only tells you what you want to hear...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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Oh dear.....is it true then that anything can be written into those papers? What are the usual, standard things that are written into them? He told me that it contained both our names, places of birth, address, job professions, my passport number, id numbers and that we meet each other in March and have since been in a relationship! If these papers aren't legal then surley by signing it does not mean that we are agreeing to obey to anything contained in it, if so how could this be enforced?
Posts: 1244 | From: we come in peace | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by sheba76: I can't believe you would sign papers in a foreign country written in a foreign language without taking them to be translated independently.
This part I agree with so much. You have to be careful. _________________________________________________
YOU COULD HAVE BEEN SIGNING YOURSELF INTO SLAVERY!
No offense fairydust.
I hear this from American's and Britain's about Middle Eastern countries. They think it's the norm. Sorry but I don't think it's the norm.
Really, how common is slavery? Just curious.
Please be careful Miss Sharm.
Slavery was only one example. I meant it could happen anywhere anytime. Which is why at the top I said foreign language and foreign country, not anything specific to middle eastern countries. It may not happen often, but bad things could result in signing something you don't know how to read. She also could have been signingherself into prostitution, or confessing to a crime,in some places signing herself over to a man for all of time, and yes signing over her life savings.
Posts: 333 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Miss Sharm: If these papers aren't legal then surley by signing it does not mean that we are agreeing to obey to anything contained in it, if so how could this be enforced?
Salient advice all round. There is no telling of the legality of the papers because you don't know - other than what you have been told - what they contain. You are also applying your knowledge of Western law to the issue - you could argue that you had to sign under duress (in order to avoid Police hassle for example) and that would negate the papers in UK. Does it in Egypt?
Always get a translation of what you sign. I am guessing that you have a standard UK address - that information plus the rest I could write out in Arabic in less than half a page long-hand and a form is supposed to cut down on that! Also, if you don't have a copy of it how will you burn it should you want "divorce"? And if you are now married, why does he want to get married again?
Incidentally, what is an ID number? We don't have both passports and ID cards in this country - do you have to get a temporary ID for Egyptian visits (presumably the same as a visa)? Very cumbersome system that is open to abuse but there is the ringing of an alarm bell here, something doesn't add up.
However. You sound like you know what you are doing and sometimes you have to let your heart rule your head; one's head is just as capable as speaking out of it's arse as one's heart!
Posts: 40 | From: Nottingham | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Miss Sharm: If these papers aren't legal then surley by signing it does not mean that we are agreeing to obey to anything contained in it, if so how could this be enforced?
The problem is you don't know Egyptian Laws or the laws of most of the countries you may travel to. They don't all operate the same way as say the UK or USA and they can sometimes enforce whatever they feel like. Besides corruption can occure in ANY country and you could find yourself in a lot of trouble. Every heard of Guantanamo Bay?
Posts: 333 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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It may not happen often, but bad things could result in signing something you don't know how to read. She also could have been signingherself into prostitution, or confessing to a crime,in some places signing herself over to a man for all of time, and yes signing over her life savings.
I thought I had agreed with you.
-------------------- شكرا و أللام عليكم شيبى Posts: 2133 | From: Redneckland | Registered: Oct 2006
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ok miss sharm, now you are confusing me. You posted in another post that you met this man on holiday, you gave him money to pay because of his egyptian pride which i guess is ok with you and doesnt send off warning bells in your head. Next you told us in another post that he said his parents/family wouldnt accept you because you are divorced with 2 children, but you call him your future husband so i guess this is ok with you also and doesnt set off warning bells in the brain. Now you tell us he took you to a lawyer, you signed papers in a language that you dont understand and he only tells you it is for "purposes of sharing an apartment" and you just sign it and you now are worried? You dont see the whole picture? Are you really just playing with us or are you serious?
Posts: 1121 | From: Too crazy to look at a freakin map to find out.. | Registered: Sep 2006
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I was just clarifying what could be misunderstood, no worries. I didn't want people to get hung up on it only being a not-so-common slavery issue. That's all. Don't take it personally.
Posts: 333 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Rumicrazieluv: Now you tell us he took you to a lawyer, you signed papers in a language that you dont understand and he only tells you it is for "purposes of sharing an apartment" and you just sign it and you now are worried? You dont see the whole picture? Are you really just playing with us or are you serious?
I am not playing with any of you at all...perhaps I have been a fool and he has taken advantage of my generous, kind hearted nature. I would like to point out I was not taken to a lawyer by my future husband as the papers had been written before I arrived in Egypt all I had to do was sign them. I guess that my mistake was that I did do as much research on these matters before I went back out to Egypt and now maybe i will have to pay the consequence for that. I believe that I knew him as well as I possibly could and trusted what he was saying but even now when I ask him questions and want answers I can only go on what he says to me and I believe in my heart and mind that I am getting the truth from him as he has no forward knowledge that the questions I ask him where going to be put to him. I have only asked the questions that I have on this forum as I feel that it is important to gain other people's perspective and knowledge if I am to continue in this relationship and have a future with this Egyptian man. At the end of the day I can read everyone's answers and advice but in the end it is up to me and him what will happen and how this journey in our lives will evolve, be sure though I will keep you all updated and probably continue to ask you many questions and want your advice.
Amanda x
Posts: 1244 | From: we come in peace | Registered: Nov 2006
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You obviously signed an Orfi paper. And if it was not court registered then it is quite simply a licence to "shag". Sorry to be so blunt, but that is all it is. It sounds like a white paper to me.... and it wouldnt be witnessed by a lawyer. However, if it was signed in front of a lawyer, you would have been asked if you understood what you were signing, and that would make it legal. Orfi is very common in the tourist resorts, and the guys there can have as many Orfi's and they can fit in "wifely" visits during the year. There is no regulation and the "4 wives" scenario doesnt come into it. As for your boyfriend answering questions that he has no knowledge of..... I would question that, if he hasnt heard those same questions himself, then he would certainly have friends who would know those questions. But at the end of the day, it sounds like your paper is simply a white Orfi..... and it can be torn up to end the "marriage". It will make no difference to any future legal Cairo marriage.
Posts: 1196 | From: www.spiritofthenile.com | Registered: Jun 2002
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hi am so sorry for this.thats sadnes me too much and am egyptian man .now its orfi marriage its means you and him visited lawyer and he made contract two copies one for you and one for him and i think there's two witnesses and they signed the contract.because the legal marrige in egypt you should be go to cairo and lots of papers and your embassy there.the orfi not bad marrige but its depend about you and him (love)but the court and the law in egypt dont confirm this contract so in the end of the stroy you can forget everything and dont worry. Tamer
Posts: 37 | From: Egypt | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Rumicrazieluv: Now you tell us he took you to a lawyer, you signed papers in a language that you dont understand and he only tells you it is for "purposes of sharing an apartment" and you just sign it and you now are worried? You dont see the whole picture? Are you really just playing with us or are you serious?
I am not playing with any of you at all...perhaps I have been a fool and he has taken advantage of my generous, kind hearted nature. I would like to point out I was not taken to a lawyer by my future husband as the papers had been written before I arrived in Egypt all I had to do was sign them. I guess that my mistake was that I did do as much research on these matters before I went back out to Egypt and now maybe i will have to pay the consequence for that. I believe that I knew him as well as I possibly could and trusted what he was saying but even now when I ask him questions and want answers I can only go on what he says to me and I believe in my heart and mind that I am getting the truth from him as he has no forward knowledge that the questions I ask him where going to be put to him. I have only asked the questions that I have on this forum as I feel that it is important to gain other people's perspective and knowledge if I am to continue in this relationship and have a future with this Egyptian man. At the end of the day I can read everyone's answers and advice but in the end it is up to me and him what will happen and how this journey in our lives will evolve, be sure though I will keep you all updated and probably continue to ask you many questions and want your advice.
Amanda x
The orfi papers cant be written before you arrive as your passport is needed for this, also you have to sign in front of the lawyer and 2 witnesess, so i dont know what you signed.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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I think that this needs to be answered for all of you so that my situation is clarified ....I went to Egypt in August which was when I apparently signed the'ofri' papers. I had no intention of entering into any marriage contract at that time with my guy. I was told by him on the phone that this contract was needed so that he could stay with me in the apartment whilst I was there. He told me that in Egypt it is not easy for men to stay with 'foreign'women, and so you don't get hassle from the police/security you need to have this contract. He asked me for my passport details before I left from England, so when I arrived all I had to do was put my signature to the paper, which I did. I think that 2 of his friends had witnessed the paper when he got them drawn up but I can't be certain on this. I definatley did not go to any lawyer and sign them in front of any witnesses, they where signed in the apartment between the two of us! I am a bit concerend what I have signed now but as long as it doesn't mean that I have entered into marriage yet then that is fine. I was never given a copy of the contract. I did ask to have one but he didn't feel it was necessary as it means nothing in the UK. I had wanted it more for so that I could get it translated by a very good friend who can speak and read arabic. I would like to point out though that my guy did say to me when I signed them that we are now married and that because we have this paper that is is how Egyptian people will think, his friends even call me his wife.
I hope that clarifies the situation for people and I am sure that I have now subjected myself to a lot of negative comments and to tell me how stupid I was to sign something I couldn't read. As some of you will know though sometimes in life the feeling in your heart takes over what your head is telling you to do!
Take care all of you, Amanda x
Posts: 1244 | From: we come in peace | Registered: Nov 2006
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Ayisha.... it doesnt have to be signed in front of a lawyer if its not court registered. A friend of mine was presented with one when she arrived in Luxor. She had given him passport details before flying out, and the whole thing was ready and waiting at the flat for her. No lawyers..... just her and him. She had one copy unsigned that she kept for herself and he had the other. It was literally just so she could spend the week in the flat with him.
Posts: 1196 | From: www.spiritofthenile.com | Registered: Jun 2002
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