posted
oook... got one for y'all. I am trying despirately to understand something. I am in a realtionship, that we are both very very serious about. So much so that he decided to tell two of his family members about me. He is egyptian, I am american. We have been talking for quite some time, and had been over and over (we thought) all issues, obstacles, and concerns... and had come to consensus on 90% of things, and the rest will be a matter of seeing how things work. It went very well with one person... surprisingly so. Then... the second, well... not well *at all*. For the question... this person could accept that I am american. Could accept that I am christian not Mouslim. Could accept every other issue but one. Much to my surprise... and I am really not sure why he never mentioned that this would be such a landmine. It was never mentioned to me as an isse before last night. The thing she could not accept is that I have been married (am now divorced)... and have a son. He has no issue with this... he has known it from day 1. Apparently this is something that his family can never accept. I know this can not be a religious issue... I did my research on that... so can somebody please explain this one to me??? Thanks in advance.
Also if anyone has any suggestions about how to deal with this... its not like i can go back in time and change things... and he adores my son. Its looking to be a really unpleasant stand still... because he has pretty much set himself to that if they wont give their blessing, he wont marry... and she thinks that they would rather see him never marry, than marry me... soley because of this. nothing else, but this.
Again, many thinks in advance.
Posts: 120 | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
But you didn't give some helpful details of whether he is in the USA or not; how you met, what both of your ages are, citizenship status, and socioeconomic background. These variables do matter.
Personally I wouldn't dare marry a guy not raised or born or hasn't been a citizen of the west for at least a decade (done that but big mistake). Even if I manage to find someone (and there are millions who fit the description above in the USA, let alone most of the west) and he has been married before with previous children there is a very good chance his family won't accept me due to a previous marriage and child.
I could tell you to give up now. But that would make the the bad guy, so I won't.
Posts: 991 | From: My daughter is a stalker | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged |
1) Dump him - he is too limited. It's not his family it's him. Everywhere in the world people value and respect mothers, he doesn't respect you enough to marry you, thus he doesn't respect your son either because you are his mother, and your son will be a man one day - so he will learn from him ( if you end up together ) how you were not "worthy" enough, and we don't want that.
2) You deserve better. If your son is not #1 in your life, you are making a huge mistake, because no man can be above of your born child because when you grow old, your son will be your everything and your limited man may dump you and have another younger wife.
3) Be smart. It's you who pick and chose and he should take it or leave it. So you are going to tell him - honey thank you for your offer but this is what I am looking in a man:
- I am looking for a man who is single, adult, mature, healthy, has his own place (house, appartment) stable good paid job, and finanically secure to be :
A) MY PARTNER, MY HUSBAND B) FATHER TO MY SON AND OTHER CHILDREN IF ANY C) BEST FRIEND.
If he doesn't agree, or he doesn't have it, say thanks but no thanks, erase him from your present and look for the best possible man in your and son's life. It's not too late for you, you can find it sooner you change your standards you will attract better man in your life.
Now he can chose what he thinks is best for him, but you also chose what's best for you and your child. It's your responsibility, it's not just about him, it's about your son and you too. Be smart and don't settle for less. So you look for responsible man. Ok? Good luck.
Posts: 989 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
thanks for the responses... and while I appreciate the advice, really I do... I was honestly just trying to understand the cultural logic... thats all. I wont bother to explain the situation, considering I have already seen what happens when you try... I do respect and appreciate the advice.
The question remains... can anybody explain the logic behind this cultural issue? Is it truely just that they (his family) can not accept him never having been married, marrying me who has been... and has a son?
If this is truely thr cultural belif... is there a reason? a logic?
posted
My ex-fiance which was egyptian was divorced and I was divorced and his family didn't have a problem with me being a divorcee. In fact, I have heard of many Egyptian men marrying divorced woman with kids/kid so I don't believe your situation is cultural.
Posts: 10 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
i am married to a divorced egyptian man with children and i too am divorced with a child and this has not been a problem for us, with his family, their biggest concern was whether i was muslim, however, i have heard that this happens less in egypt, that often a divorced woman with a child may find it more difficult to find a husband than in the west... not sure if that helps, but sounds like a situation with his family, maybe in time they would get used to it if they see he is happy
Posts: 1017 | From: uk | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
i think the main thing that they are saying is that he has never been married... thats the rub... that i have been and he has not ... either way... ty for all the help.
Posts: 120 | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Remind him about Mohamad (PBUH) ....he married Maria a Coptic Christian. Is he so much better than THE PROPHET that he cannot marry a Christian woman.
If his family is shunning you because you are Christian then their "reasons" are religious. Remind them of this so that they reexamine their faith.....
posted
I have the same problem, I am also american in love with egyptian man. We live our lives on a webcam and we have fun together. The other day though we had a huge fight because he told me that his brother told his mother about me and she became very upset and told him she would never accept this. I am divorced also and he said that this is not accepted in egypt. I cannot understand this either. I have been coming here to this site for a long time and just finally registered because this is also a big problem I have no understanding of. He was fine with me being divorced,he still wants me to come to egypt but now i am not sure. I need help and guidance also from all the wonderful people on this site
Posts: 1121 | From: Too crazy to look at a freakin map to find out.. | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
i am american and am married to egy. man . his family loves me he was divorced and so was i . they dont care as long as my hubby and i are happy . they support us totally
Posts: 9443 | From: USA...... | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
one thing u all forget .. may be coz u not egyptians .. we have traditions that should be respected and those traditions have thier logic according to our point of view .. we as Egyptians see that when male marry divorced and has baby .. this can lead to problems in funture coz why he take such responsibility of wife and her baby .. while he is still young and can find sigle girl and live with her in peace .. i know u all will see this stupid .. but when family think of thier son .. they dont take into consideration this (LOVE) issue. they only consider how to manage easy and peace life for the son .. not life full of problems (from thier view) from the begining.
quote:Originally posted by aXXo: one thing u all forget .. may be coz u not egyptians .. we have traditions that should be respected and those traditions have thier logic according to our point of view .. we as Egyptians see that when male marry divorced and has baby .. this can lead to problems in funture coz why he take such responsibility of wife and her baby .. while he is still young and can find sigle girl and live with her in peace .. i know u all will see this stupid .. but when family think of thier son .. they dont take into consideration this (LOVE) issue. they only consider how to manage easy and peace life for the son .. not life full of problems (from thier view) from the begining.
What about when the man also has been divorced and both have children with their exhusband/wife? How is that type of relationship looked upon from an egyptian point of view?
Posts: 1215 | From: Nowhere | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
1st if the man is not married be4 and this will be his 1st marriage then he\his family want him to enjoy his wife to the full not to take care of her+her son beside being not married be4 means he's probably young and want to enjoy his life and also from the finance point of view , he's still starting his life(probably) so a wife and a kid as a start will be - the wife sure will have responsibilities toward her kid which he can't deny her from doing so her time will be for the 2 not only the husband
about the sexual experience sure most if not All men like to feel control\manhood in bed so probably a virgin man will feel a bit of insecurity about if he's pleasing his wife or atleast he will start think if he's doing it good enough, and thinking she may not like or she had better...etc same for the woman should have the patience and deal wisely not to hurt his feelings if he can't do it as to please both, and be the teacher in an indirect way, sill problems can come from there.
again if the man is muslim he(99%) will do what pleases his mother, as Islam teaches to listen to the familly specially the mother.
this is what i have heard from many Egyptians, men\women\husbands\wives and mothers.
good luck
Posts: 201 | From: A To : Z | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
I am British married to an Egyptian, my third husband. my first marriage ended in divorce, my second in the death of my husband. I have a daughter from my second marriage. Neither I nor my daughter have had any issues with my husband or his family.
different families feel different things
-------------------- Jane Akshar UK Co-owner of www.flatsinluxor.co.uk Appartments and Tours in Luxor Posts: 2791 | From: www.flatsinluxor.co.uk, Luxor, Egypt | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
my husband pleased his mother and listened to her and so he married me . they are muslim 100%and welcomed me with open arms into thier family . they all love me and i love them. so it is not true for all muslims to marry a divorced woman. also my husband was divorced too Posts: 9443 | From: USA...... | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by faithalwaysn4ever: i think the main thing that they are saying is that he has never been married... thats the rub... that i have been and he has not ... either way... ty for all the help.
Well as you decided you don't want to provide the kind of specifics that are needed to actually tell you anything, all you're getting is a bunch of generalizations from a lot of people with very different experiences.
variants like both your ages, age difference, his social class (upbringing, education, whether from a 'good family', how he speaks and interacts with people - not necessarily that he attended university and his profession), where you met, how long you've know each other, is he well-traveled, are you, etc. make a huge difference to the responses.
so to generalize? if he's under 35 and in Egypt, no way is his family going to let him marry some divorcee with a kid when there's a line of eligible single egyptian girls that are waiting to be introduced to him by friends/relatives. If he's 35+ something's wrong with him. Guys are usually married by then. Either he's poor and can't afford it, he's already married, or he's a playboy and doesn't want to.
if you met on the internet or on holiday, then he's going to tell you whatever you want to hear.
posted
lol... ty for the laugh. no disrespect really. It would not be right of me to share alot of the details, it is out of respect to him. genrally, I am 22 he is 24. I am from the US, he is from Egypt. I am well traveled, he is not. I come from a good family we have had our ups and downs, but we do fine, and are well respected in our community. His family is the same. We are both college students, just finnishing our studies. I am well established in my career though, have been working for the comapny I am with for quite some time. He is getting his feet on the ground at the moment. A little shaky to start, but very tennacious and ambitious. where we met and how I can not share out of respect for him... sorry. It is nothing inappropriate, just far too personal. I think this answers the majority of your questions. But again, I really was not asking for the specific circumstance, I was simply asking about the genrality of the situation the cultural belief. If I had it to do over again I would not have posted that it had anything to do with me, would have left it at the question : Is it true that there is a cultural practice or norm that it is unaccepted for a man who has never been married to marry a woman who has ben previously married (with a child or no). If so, why? What is the logic behind this. Some people have been very helpful in answering this, and to them I am very grateful.
Its increasingly obvious that there are two distinct sides to it... there are definately some families that hold to this on principle (and the logic was explained ... I may not like it, but i understand it). And there are other families who really couldnt care less, and have opened their hearts to those their sons or daughters chose regardless.
A specific situation brings a million variables into account and clouds the question that I was asking, which was simply cultural not specific. For the specific I am aware that there is not one thing either he nor I can do to change it. It will be what it will be, and it is in his mothers hands (though she doesnt know it yet). We know how we feel about eachother, and that we are would like to make it work... and we know that the liklihood of her being amenable to this is slim to none. I cant change it, He cant change it, it just is. The onyl one who can is G-d. Like all things... its in His power, His will be done.
Thank you again for all of the help and advice. It is greatly appreciated.
Posts: 120 | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
egypt is a land of contrasts. what's done in one class isn't done in another, etc. if it really seems that silly to you, then all it does is point out how much you have to learn about the society you're wanting to marry into. and a woman who's just graduated from college and is already divorced and with a kid isn't going to be considered good enough for him by his family. it would be different if he was older and divorced himself.
Posts: 2182 | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by faithalwaysn4ever: The onyl one who can is G-d.
Not that this matters in the least, Faith, but I thought you were Jewish, not Christian -- since Jews cannot spell out the name of God.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think he is insecure about you having a previous, and presumably deep, romantic and sexual experience. He is saying that it is that you were married and have a child that is the issue, but what marriage and child *means* is love and sex. With someone other than him. He simply doesn't like the idea of his wife being someone else's at one time, especially since you are still young and thus the exception to the generality of people not marrying until a bit later in life. I do not know him personally, of course, and could be wrong. It is just my male perspective.
Posts: 345 | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Wow... good catch whats in a name... well lets throw this one out there... I'm mesianic its kind of midway between both. I am a jew that beleives in Jesus as messiah and a christain that keeps the old laws. We come from the verse in the bible where Jesus says "I came not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it." So to us, any law that was not spoken against still stands. I follow scripture, not man... so the majority of the rabbinical laws that are not directly supported scripturally we dont follow. This one... about not spelling out the name of G-d is one that is just a me thing... when the logic was explained to me, it made alot of sense. Its a matter of respect to me, rather than law. Hopefully that explains it. I was raised Episcopalean, was baptized and confirmed as such. When I got to college... i met someone who voiced everything i had been thinking. i did alot of reading and praying, and it was right for me. I still have alot alot to learn, in many ways... and now i find myself back at the starting gate, again reading, praying, and thinking. LOL.
Posts: 120 | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
"if it really seems that silly to you, then all it does is point out how much you have to learn about the society you're wanting to marry into."
I'm sorry I think I missed where I came off as saying I begin to know anything about anything... I know I have alot ot learn, and the thing is that I am trying, truely and honestly trying. Thats more than can be said for alot of other people. I am the first one to say I have *alot* to learn.
Where in the world did I say it was silly??? I never once trivilaized the reason... what I said is that I may not like the logic, but I understand it. Last I checked that is granting it alot of merit and respect. I am sorry if you thought I came off as anything but respectful, because it was certainly not intended.
Posts: 120 | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Sometimes I read these threads and just wonder what everyone does in their life? It seems all is worrying about things that didn't happen yet.
I can tell you I met a guy, fell in love, his family didn't accept me because I had been divorced with 2 children. We are still friends. He did not get married yet.
After him, I met someone new, fell in love again, but stronger. His family loves me and the kids and we got married. We are very happy and none of that other silly stuff mattered.
If it is about the "class" of people who do or don't accept, well....my husband's family has more money and wealth, but are very liberal, (from Alexandria). The other man, his family is from Suez, and their social class, although well off now, was always struggling in their life.
So I'm not sure if this helps anyone with a culture or non-culture attitude.
The truth really, is if this man is gonna share his family's thoughts and feelings (whether good or bad), he may be trying to let you down, that he will always go with his family's wishes, despite love.
Just think of what you would want for your son or daughter. And put yourself in their place when they consider the marriage or life partner for their precious son, whom they love.
Good luck.....Ramadan Mubarak.
Posts: 39 | From: Jersey City, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by faithalwaysn4ever: I still have alot alot to learn, in many ways... and now i find myself back at the starting gate, again reading, praying, and thinking. LOL.
I think faith is a life-long learning experience. Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
books on topics like Islam V Cultural Islam can help with these questions. Egypt has mixed up Islam- originally Shi a then Sunni. They practice cultural Islam hence have mixed ideas about what is religious or not. Our Prophet (PBUH) married his first wife-whom he loved until he died- when she was married before, was 25 years older than him,and was his boss. He also helped find husbands for divorced and widowed women, with and without children. He told men they earned greater rewards from Allah if they looked after women who were left alone. Who then considers himself, or her son, to be deserving of greater things than those prescribed by the Prophet (PBUH). Where marriage is concerned in Egypt all manner of things rear their heads, and not many truely correspond to religious deeds.
Posts: 319 | From: egypt/uk | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by misbah: books on topics like Islam V Cultural Islam can help with these questions. Egypt has mixed up Islam- originally Shi a then Sunni. They practice cultural Islam hence have mixed ideas about what is religious or not. Our Prophet (PBUH) married his first wife-whom he loved until he died- when she was married before, was 25 years older than him,and was his boss. He also helped find husbands for divorced and widowed women, with and without children. He told men they earned greater rewards from Allah if they looked after women who were left alone. Who then considers himself, or her son, to be deserving of greater things than those prescribed by the Prophet (PBUH). Where marriage is concerned in Egypt all manner of things rear their heads, and not many truely correspond to religious deeds.
Wasn't Khadija only 15 years older than him? I thought they married when he was 25, and had 6 children. 4 daughters and two sons that didn't live.
starting a family at 40 years old is daugnting, but to be able to have 6 children and 4 surviving is a miracle.
Posts: 3168 | From: If you don't like it, don't look or read it! | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Many different sories of course.All the ones I read say she was about 25 years older, died when she was about 72 and our Prophet (PBUH) was about 46.Anyway, thats symantics and is not so important as the points I was trying to get across using these examples. Which I intended to be helpful, and sincere. The Prophet (PBUH) was our only living example of these matters, and muslims should all strive to follow him and listen to ALL of his words and not change them to suit our cultural or social preferences. In which case, no family member has the right to decide who you are allowed to marry.They can only advise, and when doing so they should do it within the correct context of Islam. Egypt is notorious for making their own rules as they go along, especially where marriage is concerned. I have seen lots of very unhappy people- Egyptian and foreign, who have been brow beaten into not marrying the person of their choice. Especially where Mahr is concerned. The marriage is only lawful in Islam after Mahr has been given, but Egyptians use it as a way of extorting as much as possible out of an obviously eager suitor for their daughters. The example we have been given by our Prophet (PBUH) when questioned on the subject was from a good man, a few Surah recitations will do. Any man who behaves such as the man who is the subject of this discussion, and marries only whom his family chooses, is not a true follower, may not receive so many rewards from Allah, and is guilty of cultural islamic practices. However, saying that, in this instance, it is quite clear he should only be marrying a muslim anyway. - yes, I know about the "we can marry christians and jews" bit, but that referred to People Of The Book, and they actually ceased to exist after the temple curtain tore in the jewish temple- Allah made it clear at that point the jews had over stepped the mark- and after the christians began to include all manner of verses in their book, and began to follow the edict of constantine that they should worship on sunday - the venerable day of the sun - which was dedicated to the angel light bearer - Lucifer.
Posts: 319 | From: egypt/uk | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
[The Prophet (PBUH) was our only living example of these matters, and muslims should all strive to follow him and listen to ALL of his words and not change them to suit our cultural or social preferences.]
STRONGLY I AGREE
Posts: 2728 | From: جمهورية مصر العربية | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
who said anything about bad anyone?Its a fact of islam thats all.I stated I was trying to be helpful to the questioner in understanding the cultural divide, and why, maybe, the man she likes has said what he did. But as I have seen in other forums the topic is slowly being hijacked.I wont be baited by sarcasm. Its not helpful to anyone. Personally I dont give a monkeys butt what anyone chooses to do with their lives or what their beliefs are,yahoudi, christian,hindu etc. all needed in the world. Tolerance to all.I just have to look after my own spiritual wellbeing. Im new to this site, and already disappointed at the number of haters,baiters,and egoists whose same names keep popping up in majority of discussions,steering them to their personal prejudices so they can sound off. I had hoped it would be one of those helpful learning experiences where all types of people with all types of experiences share their views. Too much to ask? Salaam Aleykum says it all for me.
Posts: 319 | From: egypt/uk | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
hey misbah i wasnt getting at you ok take a chill darling iw as just saying its not just jews and christians or any other faith we as muslims can be very bad and back biting u know we not meant to be here really in the time of ramzan back biting it breaks rosa if you know your doing it ...so me just as bad now please plesae im on yur side here love ..chimps .xxw/salaams sister ..good health to you in this holy time ..
Posts: 4597 | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by MY NAME IS NO MORE .....,: hey misbah i wasnt getting at you ok take a chill darling iw as just saying its not just jews and christians or any other faith we as muslims can be very bad and back biting u know we not meant to be here really in the time of ramzan back biting it breaks rosa if you know your doing it ...so me just as bad now please plesae im on yur side here love ..chimps .xxw/salaams sister ..good health to you in this holy time ..
h by the way i prefered misbah
Posts: 4597 | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thanks for all the advice and explanation. Expecially to roseamongthorns. thank you for your imput. G-d bless and keep you all.
Posts: 120 | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
I can't see how one can 'enjoy' Ramadan and bash Christians and Jews doing it. Let alone, hiding behind 'it is just a fact in Islam'. Islam is just hatefull to Christians and Jews. You just make your religion look bad. Those statements are from people not from holy books unless you quote something less favourable or out of context. As people do on all sides of the religious spectrum.
Posts: 1419 | From: Amsterdam, Netherlands | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
To adress the topic, just another 'cultural' idea disposed. My Egyptian dh first met me on several occasions where I was with a child of my sister, and he believed me to have already children of my own. And he went for it anyway as did his family. Families are different and of course parents will have concerns but not everyone is the same. Althoug looking at the cirucumstances some families in Egypt are that close that you will have a miserable time if you are not approved by them. It will make your prospect husband miserable to. Some make it by concentrating on their nuclear family and give the rest of the family some time, sometimes family get adjusted, and some stay isolated of their family. But is this not exactly what will happen in the so-called West?
posted
You really think I use facts not found in holy books? Thats haram. And I am blessed that my son is training to be an imam and can therefore explain lots of things to me and show me where to find it.I dont bash anyone. I am very happy to tolerate all religions. I am a revert, Half my family are christian, half muslim, 2 of my best friends jewish, a few hindus, and some seventh day adventists. oh and 3 pagans. My faith is exactly that- mine and no one elses, and faith is faith, so i feel its impossible to make something as beautiful as true islam look bad. the media, world controllers etc. do a very good job of brain washing and planting bad ideas into heads. Whatever your faith - or none - i would never dream of insulting it, or you for expressing it- and that is islam too by the way.
Posts: 319 | From: egypt/uk | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic