posted
Well, I figured out that many women feel maybe unsafe to talk directly about their lives in Egypt, so I was wondering if anyone can share - How is it to be a 'foreign' and 'divorced' mother in Egypt?
How laws protect you? How people view you? What are your chances of having a better life? Can you marry again? Is it hard, how is it? What about your child and future? What are the responsibilities (legal or ethical according to cultural norms) of the father ( ex husband ) and his family if any? Who gets children? Can a woman just go back to her homeland with no consequences? How? Are laws in Egypt allowing her that? Do you feel that laws are "fair and just" towards divorced women as much as towards divorced men?
In another words, can you find the way to get out of that situation, and change your life and give yourself and your child the best opportunities ? Please share, Thanks.
Posts: 989 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
Firstly in most cases the husband would not agree that the ex-wife takes the child back to her native country so she would be forced to stay in Egypt to be with her child. And which mother would put her own needs before her child's needs?
Secondly salaries are so low in Egypt even if she's qualified. Social benefits like many Western countries offering are unheard of in Egypt. So if she would get employment with a foreign company incl. medical benefits it would mean she hit the jackpot. And would the husband - if he's then able - agree to financially support his ex-wife and the child (incl. education)? Remember hardly any foreign woman knows about the intensive marriage negociations between two Egyptian families at the time they marry an Egyptian man. So what is hers after all?
What is out there for a divorced foreign woman in Egypt? Most divorces are nasty so he would diss her, his family would diss her because of course they support their son (and blood is thicker than water), she doesn't have own family to support her like Egyptian women in the same situation, many friends would turn or being forced to turn away from her because she has now the status of a divorced woman.
Thinking about the woman would date at one point again, finally marries another man and lives together with him and the child from her previous marriage under one roof - I think the ex-husband would make many problems.
The culture differences are just so immense. Seriously, after all I am happy I married my American husband. I spared myself this fate.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Some 15 years ago I had this colleague that would work for some months and then she would be of to Egypt again to visit her kids for a month or so. Very sad.
Posts: 1419 | From: Amsterdam, Netherlands | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think this is very difficult situation to be in.
Are these foreign mothers treated with dignity In Egypt, or they are looked upon as some 2nd class citizens who are worthless and don't deserve any kindness or support?
Is it because they are "foreign" or because they are "mothers", or because they are "divorced"?
What about their children? Do children have equal chance for the life and happiness like other children whose parents did not divorce?
What about Egyptian divorced mothers, are they also less worthy than a single never married circumcised Egyptian 'virgin'?
Posts: 83 | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
well .. because she is divorced and she is treated with dignity and first class citizen not second class and they deserve all support .. and kids can have equal happiness same like kids with still married parients .. to understand the divorced case in egypt u have to know our traditions first ... we have the concept of virgin girl .. may be this sound strange for all foreign girls but we have this tradition and it is very highly respected .. in meaning girls can have boyfriends but never have sex relation with this boyfriend .. so when she divorced she is free to do all she want .. of corse not all divorced are sluts but the community see her like expectable slut .. i know this sound silly but this is how things going on in Egypt .. so they deal with divorced with suspecious .. and this is general in both foreign and egyptian girls .. about happiness of kids .. it depends on mother treatment and general arrangements between parents to make kids live normal life .. i hope the matter is clear altough it may sound strange for foreign ears ..
Posts: 79 | From: cairo | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
But do you think that the status of a divorce woman in Egypt is changing? Do you feel that it is getting better or it is still the same kind of mentality?
Do you know yourself any dvorce women ?
Thank you for your answer
Posts: 1182 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
hey hey heeeyyyy no bad comments on dr. phil - he is so good and kinda sexy in a "daddish" way Posts: 1215 | From: Nowhere | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
In its first-ever report on personal status laws, Human Rights Watch (HRW) paints a bleak picture of women suffering under Egypt's divorce system. Gihan Shahine reviews the report and asks its author, Farida Deif, some tough questions
The new Human Rights Watch (HRW) report on Egypt's divorce system has provoked considerable controversy. In particular, it casts doubt on whether the current state of the law really provides women with equal access to divorce and a fair share of their marital assets.
"I wanted a divorce, but he [my husband] refused," said Hamida Tawfiq from Qalyubiya. "He left the house. He told me, 'You're not getting a divorce. You're staying just in case, like a spare tire'."
Hamida is one of many cases in which the New York-based organisation found women to be victims of what it describes as a "discriminatory" legal system. The 62-page report, Divorced from Justice: Women's Unequal Access to Divorce in Egypt, is the group's first-ever survey to tackle personal status laws as a human rights' issue. The report concludes that the latest initiatives to amend the Egyptian divorce system, which introduced the family court and the no-fault divorce ( khul' ), are "half-hearted" solutions and calls for granting women genuinely equal access.
The novelty of the subject, and the fact that an American organisation is introducing an alternative Western model to a Shariaa-based system, has provoked a heated public debate. Critics slammed the report as "exaggerated", and the fact that HRW recently issued a report on homosexual rights in Egypt made many speculate that the group had a "hidden agenda", presumably linked to US social reform plans for the Middle East -- a claim which HRW vigorously denies. Many analysts criticised the exclusion of husbands from the report's research, and rejected the recommendations as "alien" to Egypt and "an intrusion whose only purpose is to break up families". Conservatives have also condemned the report as anti-Islamic.
While the report says that HRW "does not advocate for or against Shariaa per se", it does call upon Egypt to withdraw its religious-based reservations to the international treaties it has ratified. The report also insists that "religious-based personal status laws violate equality provisions in Egypt's constitution", and some of the solutions it suggests may contradict certain Islamic tenets.
The report states that Egypt's divorce system grants men a unilateral and unconditional right to divorce. They do not even need to enter a courtroom in order to end their marriages. Egyptian women, on the other hand, must resort to Egypt's notoriously backlogged and inefficient court system to divorce their spouse, which, the report laments, "undermines their right to end a marriage".
As a result, the report argues, many Egyptian women avoid the courts and are left with two equally distressing options: "either remain in an unwanted marriage and possibly endure physical and psychological abuse, or beg their husbands to divorce them, giving up everything they own and cherish in return".
The report therefore recommends adding the equal right to divorce ( isma ) as a default provision within standard marriage contracts.
Mohamed Selim El-Awwa, an expert in international law and secretary-general of both the Union of Islamic Scholars and the Egyptian Association for Cultures and Dialogue, explains that Islam put the right to divorce in the hands of men because it is the husband who bears the financial consequences of a divorce (through the various categories of alimony and child support). "It has nothing to do with women being irrational, emotional or less wise than men, as the report claims," El-Awwa maintains. "Islam puts men and women on an equal footing."
Muslim women are entitled to divorce in two cases: they must either prove harm, or forfeit their financial rights in case of the wife's change of heart, in what is called a "no-fault divorce" ( khul' ). A husband, however, can choose to proxy his wife to divorce him, either in the marriage contract or after marriage. That proxy, according to El-Awwa, cannot be annulled except with the wife's approval. "It allows a wife to divorce of her own will without having to go to court, and provides her with full financial rights," El-Awwa said. "I personally encourage women to include isma in the marriage contract, and I would say that 90 per cent of Cairene women attempt to do so nowadays."
Many women are forced to wade through procedural and evidentiary obstacles on their path towards divorce -- a process that the report describes as "inherently discriminatory". While conceding that those hurdles are a necessary by-product of a busy, overcrowded, and archaic judicial system, the report insists on singling out the personal status law as "a particularly egregious example of discrimination".
"It is true women suffer prolonged legal battles in the courts," El-Awwa concedes. He insists, however, that this is a "procedural, and not a legislative, problem that affects all areas of litigation, and is not meant to discriminate against women as such".
Corruption among court bailiffs has also been identified as a major administrative problem. "Attorneys repeatedly told Human Rights Watch that bailiffs assigned to notify a husband of a court session or an alimony ruling often take bribes in return for neglecting these duties," the report says. "In return for a bribe, a bailiff will inform the court that he could not locate the person."
Activists in Egypt agree that the government should adopt policies and procedures for training and monitoring the work of bailiffs in a way that promptly and effectively penalises those who are found to have taken bribes.
But beyond such operational matters, the report insists that the system itself allows men to "manipulate the many defences and tactics Egyptian law reserves only for them". In order to initiate a divorce providing full financial rights, an Egyptian woman must show evidence of harm inflicted by her spouse during the course of their marriage, often supported by eyewitness testimony.
El-Awwa concedes that the need for witnesses is a huge barrier and agrees with the HRW's finding that "most cases fail because of a lack of witnesses". For El-Awwa, an alternative solution which conforms with Shariaa "is to apply a proof procedure by oath of the claimant (the woman), which can only be challenged by stronger evidence provided by the defendant, subject to the acceptance of the judge".
But the fact that the law does not strictly define the degree of harm sufficient to warrant the granting of a divorce leaves room for the judge to exercise discretion. According to the report, this allows judges to "discriminate against women" of lower social strata. The report quotes a chief judicial inspector as saying that "what is harm for one women isn't harm for another. Some women accept beatings and insults as a joke, while others do not."
But for El-Awwa, "judging according to social custom is by no way discriminatory against either sex. On the contrary, it produces acceptable solutions in line with the norms of society to which people adhere both before and after their appearance before the court."
While khul' has clearly helped some women have easier access to divorce, HRW's interviews reveal that because the system makes women forfeit the right both to any marital assets and to any future support, this option is only accessible to those who have significant financial resources or are absolutely desperate for a divorce.
In addition, women, under Egyptian law, are obliged to accept compulsory mediation, while men are not. The report says that this law, which further delays legal proceedings, is based on "discriminatory notions" that women are more emotional and less rational than men, and so, they may be "hasty in filing for divorce".
El-Awwa, however, explains that "referring a marriage dispute to reconciliation is obligatory for both husband and wife, according to the Quranic text itself. In case of dispute, the overwhelming practice in Muslim families is to resort to reconciliation before taking the matter to court."
Abolishing the mandatory mediation programme on grounds of discrimination is, thus, not an option for critics such as El-Awwa. "There is no discrimination in relation to the obligatory reconciliation between husband and wife," he argues. "On the contrary, in practice this system leads to reconciliation in more cases than not. Neither the man nor the woman are obliged to accept the decision of reconciliation, but the party that refuses has to bear the financial and legal responsibilities of their decision."
The report also raises a host of other problems. Under the law, a husband may file an obedience ( ta'a ) complaint against his wife if she leaves the marital home without his permission in order "to humiliate [her], delay the divorce proceedings and avoid paying any alimony". Egyptian women who have separated from their husbands and have filed for divorce in Egypt's courts may find themselves facing destitution: they have no access to any form of government-sponsored financial assistance, since they are officially still married. And after divorce women may remain impoverished due to the government's failure to enforce court rulings on alimony and child support.
This state of affairs, the report warns, discourages many women from leaving unwanted, and sometimes violent, marriages. Rania Omar, 47, may be a case in point. "Sometimes he was good to me," she told HRW. "But when there was no work, he was disgusted at life. He would take it out on me. I endured it. Where could I go? I have five children."
For the rights' group, the Egyptian government's attempt to remedy this problem through the establishment of a specialised alimony and child support fund, although it represents progress, should not become a substitute for more aggressive enforcement of court rulings. HRW further provides a highly controversial suggestion that women have an equal right to marital assets and the marital home upon divorce.
El-Awwa rejects the suggestion as "impractical and contradictory with Islamic tenets and cultural norms". He adds, "And that system has proved a failure in the US." Moreover, Islamic societies have a different financial system. In Islam, men bear all the expenses of marriage, pay the woman a dowry, and support her financially after marriage. "Islam grants women the right to her own financial assets and does not allow men to take any of her money, except with her agreement," El-Awwa explains. "If we apply the Western system, wouldn't it be easy for men to manipulate the law and put their financial assets in the name of their children or parents? We should amend the procedures, not the law itself."
The report argues that women's unequal access to divorce condemns them to remain in violent marriages, and that domestic violence is not only prevalent, but socially acceptable in Egyptian society, because the disciplining of disobedient women is sanctioned under Egyptian law. Article 60 of the Criminal Code states that "the provisions of the penal code shall not apply to any deed committed in good faith, pursuant to a right determined by virtue of the Shariaa." The report argues that this article has been used to justify domestic violence. To further support its argument, HRW quotes Hossam Abu Youssef, state council deputy in Cairo, saying that a man "has the right in Shariaa to discipline his wife", but that "God says that the best of you will never use this power."
El-Awwa, however, refutes these claims as "cultural misconceptions" which have no roots in Islam. He insists that "Article 60 is by definition not applicable in family disputes", and that the word "Shariaa" in this article refers to the complete body of Egyptian law. "The conditions of beating women are taken from prophetic tradition, but the report ignores the fact that the Prophet himself allowed beating in one single case only, the purpose of which was not to cause a scandal for the family."
While admitting that no accurate statistics for domestic violence are available in Egypt, the report paints a bleak picture of family life based on a 1995 National Population Centre (NPC) survey of 7,000 married women aged between 15 and 49. The survey found that one out of every three women who were or had been married, mostly those with no education or only to primary level, have been beaten at least once since marriage. Nearly 86 per cent of the women surveyed thought that husbands were justified in beating their wives under certain circumstances.
Domestic violence, El-Awwa contends, "is not part of the social practice of Muslims anywhere in the world; nor is it unconditionally permissible under Islamic law. But in some places, and among some social classes, violence is a normal practice not only against women, but throughout the whole social class. When this phenomenon manifests itself in family life, it is misinterpreted, as in the report, as being part of some kind of specifically 'Islamic' behaviour."
Nevertheless, the legal system which must redress such wrongs remains dominated by men. "Regardless of which type of divorce a woman chooses, male officials largely still control every step of the process," the HRW report laments. "Egypt has only one female judge on the bench, and the prosecutors who provide advisory opinions in divorce cases are overwhelmingly male. In divorce cases, women themselves are left with little decision-making power."
The report says that judges and other representatives of the Ministry of Justice "gave deeply discriminatory reasons for why women should not be criminal prosecutors or judges". It cites a number of these "reasons", such as that "society cannot accept it", and that women are more emotional than men. Some told the HRW that "when the culture of the people changes, maybe they'll accept it."
But cultural norms, according to El-Awwa, take time to change. "The lack of female judges does not render the entire judicial process suspect, as the report claims," El-Awwa argues. "Does every woman seeking divorce need to appear before a female judge in order to feel fairly treated? That's ridiculous."
Egypt has ratified international treaties that require it to take measures to ensure equality for both men and women in marriage and divorce. But it has also registered reservations, citing adherence to Islamic law. HRW calls upon the Egyptian government to abolish these reservations, because "they contradict the purpose of the treaty".
El-Awwa remains pessimistic about the utility of such proposals. "The majority of society will not accept the proposed legal amendments," he argues, "and couples will go back to customary ways of alternative dispute resolution instead of going to the state court. Such a thing would only weaken the state's hold on its legal and social system."
posted
heloo Souri of corse the mentality changed very much .. coz at past divorce was strange case and rarely u can find divorced girl but now life in Egypt changed and divorce cases become thousands and thousands and culture in Egypt started to change and that look to the divorced woman become normal not like before .. but still , from my opinion , u can find strange feelings towards divorced .. we cant change in one year or two ,, we need decades ,, but in general things are going much better in Egypt .. i know many divorced and divorce in each case come for different reasons .. but in my opinion, if any one still married but thinking of divorce .. pls try again and again with ur husband ,, specially if u have kids.. regards,
posted
aXXo thanks for your kind replies and participation.
It seems to me that marriage in Egypt could be sweet but legally sour for women. Being divorced is pretty much normal in most of western world. For example some people marry and divorce several times and some don't marry at all.
When Egyptians say "divorced" does this in Egypt mean it's always "her" fault?
I often hear Egyptian men saying - "I divorced her", but very rare "we are divorced", or "she divorced me".
When a man says "I divorced her" - does that mean that he initiated a divorce and finally divorced her, or his wife initiated but he went along and notarized it?
What is the procedure for a man, and for a woman in Egypt to get divorce? Do they both go to Court and settle, or how that works? Can woman have a lawyer and protect her rights any time before ( by having a marriage contract maybe )? How that works?
Posts: 83 | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
well sharon .. many questions but ok .. look i will tell u what is happening between egyptian couple coz i dont know situation with foreginers .. first : not necessary to be her fault .. coz u know may be they just not fit each other or he is agressive with her or she is disobediant all the time .. and this come back to many reasons .. when a girl marry in Egypt .. in most of the cases the marriage is not love marriage .. but just good one (from the family view) ask the hand of the girl for marriage and the family accept him and consequantly they convince the girl that this is good one for her .. so she accept and like this marriages end in 3 ways first : they divorce soon 20% second : she live unhappy all her life 75% third : she love him and life become ok 5% so as u see not always her fault or his fault .. from my opinion .. society fault .. culture fault about (i divorced her) In Islam the man is the one who divorce .. in meaning he is the one who can say the divorce word .. the woman cant .. but the woman in Islam can go to the court and say that she want divorce .. and this case called (Khol'a) but in most cases in EG the divorce come by understanding between both .. but finally still he is the one that must say the divorce word .. that is why u hear .. i divorced her u ask of procedures to divorce .. in EG divorce happen when both families meet and decide the way of divorce to keep the wife rights .. but in some cases the man become stupid and in that case she must go to court asking for her right as stipulated in the marriage contract .. this take long stupid time in the stupid egyptian courts but finally she get her rights .. for foreigner she , of corse , must have her marriage contract always and she must know exactly what is her rights mentioned in the marriage contract and before she discuss the divorce case with her husband she must consult a lawyer to let her know what she exactly need to do .. and the best way to do it .. if the husband is respectable man she can discuss all with him and he will not make problems and will give her her rights in peace .. it depends on .. the mentality of the husband i hope all clear ..
posted
axxo Thank you for your replies which have been very helpful. I really hope that you'll stay posting on ES as it is very good at least for me to have an Egyptian point of view of certain subject related to the Egyptian society
Take care and Ramadan Karim
Posts: 1182 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Isn't he an angel? aXXo - you are the best. Thank you for answering all those questions. I have more to ask... whoever knows, it looks axxo you are only one with answers so far.
For instance, let's say I decide to get married with Egyptian and live in Egypt ( to get married with Egyptian for me could be possible but to live in Egypt - highly unlikely - but then who knows, I am just asking for the sake of argument ).
In order for me to make sure that this marriage will legally bind me with a man what are the best ways to protect myself when everything is so nice and "perfect".
Can I - for instance ask that we add in marriage contract maybe the term that I would accept the marriage if I have full right to leave the country and travel at any time without necessarily permission from the husband, including my children?
Can I add - that for instance I am asking for certain amount of money in the case of divorce or if he cheats on me, or if he abuse me or my children ( just example I hope I have ability to weed out bad boys ) and can I actually name the amount?
Can I add - that in the case of divorce children under age of 18 belong to me for instance and that I oppose FGM and no traditional practices could be done on my children without my consent?
Can I add - that I don't approve Orfi marriages and 2nd wife marriages and if that happens we are automatically divorced - no questions asked, and I get all I asked ( all kinds of compansations, let's say I get the house and we are automatically divorced ) if this happens?
Can I add - that if he dissapears and doesn't provide for the family for longer than 1 or 2 years - we are automatically divorced and I am getting all I asked should this happen?
Do Egyptian father pay child support in the case of divorce? And if the husband brakes the terms of marriage contract - does law actually enforce it or all this is just on the paper but in practice a man has **all power**? Thanks!
Posts: 83 | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
thanks for ur nice words sharon .. actually i found this site by chance .. i am on my way to marry foregin girl and i was searching things for her .. and she will stay with me here in EG ..
well about ur questions .. first u have to know that what between u and ur husband is (contract) and that contract is like any other contract .. in meaning u can make all conditions u want and u ask for .. but u have to take into consideration the following : very difficult for Egyptian man to accept that u may take his kids and leave whenever u want. and there is law in Egypt controlling the kids belong to whom in which age .. i hope u get me .. so u can ask they belong to you in all cases but IF he accept this easy .. be cautious of him .. coz this is very unusual .. or may be he is an angel ur qustion about divorce if he dissapear .. i think u need to ask a lawyer in this coz i am not sure u can ask this or not .. but i think u can. and yes father must pay child support in case of divorce and law determine the amount he should pay monthly for each kid .. finally the law enforce all and every thing .. but the Judge in egypt is really stupid .. in meaning u can stay for long months or years in Eg courts to get ur rights .. so better u be very very sure of ur man first .. coz it is one life we live .. so better not destroy it .. all in all .. we want live in peace and feel secure .. so if u feel 1% u will not be like this .. dont try .. all other conditions u asked for .. can be stipulated in marriage contract
quote:very difficult for Egyptian man to accept that u may take his kids and leave whenever u want.
aXXo, thanks again. Well obviously the law is favoring men over women. Who would want their children to be motherless or fatherless? Egyptian Law would rather make them motherless, it seems.
If the children stay with father, Egyptian father quickly gets married with another woman, and kids become someone else's step children or ar egiven to grandparents to live without Mom and Dad - when they can be living at least with mother and having it all, plus the father could come and see them whenever he wants ( in another country ).
Now, let's say mother agrees because she has no choice she leaves her children to their father, that man will probably tell them how mother abandoned them and run away to her homeland and on top of it he will be legally given power to never allow mother to see them again, just based on the fact that he says so - "she is divorced".
I guess, all this is quite different experience for Egyptian women who are not alone in Egypt but have their families too so - they can at least have some negotiations and work out things in both interests, but for a foreign woman this seems to be a bad position.
So aXXo what options foreign divorced mother may have if this actually happens?
Posts: 83 | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
first i dont know the law regarding the foreginers .. but as for Egyptian wife .. she keep her kids untill certain age and father must spend money on his kids .. i think with foreigner is same .. second who said that the father will quickly get married ? and who said that if they live with thier mother .. the mother will not marry and will dedicate all her life for her kids ? of corse she has feelings and she may love again and want marry .. so in this regard both father and mother are equal .. so why not with their father ? and mother come and see them whenever she want (in Egypt ) .. i am not defending the father but i just say .. it is equal in both cases .. altough (i believe) that the kids need their mother more than they need the father .. coz the relation between the mother and her kids is more strong than between father and kids .. and my dear sharonstone .. who said that the father will speak to his kids badly about their mother ? why u assume this will happen ? can any girl marry a man with such stupidity ? .. and for what he prevent his ex-wife from visiting her kids ? if he normal person or even less than normal he will realize that this is more healthy for his kids and it is great SIN in Islam to prevent mother from her kids ... this colud happen only to sick minded and psycho personalities .. not normal people ..
u asked of options ... ok first option is .. she must choose husband who has MIND .. second .. if her husband is resonable they can sit together and organize the situation of the kids .. like they choose the country of education and other country they go on vacation .. of corse the main reason for father to keep his kids is to let them grow in muslim community ... but some people can sacrifice this to give them good education coz education in Egypt is very bad .. IF .. all what u said happen and the father kept his kids by force and told them bad about their mother and prevent the mother from visiting her kids .. mother can consult her embassy in Egypt to know what she can do .. but let me tell u from now .. she will suffer very much .. and best thing to do in that situation is to contact her ex-husband and try to negotiate with him ..
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic