posted
Tales of horror in Shebin Al-Kom By Shaden Shehab
Ten members of parliament alleged last week that the directors of two orphanages in Shebin Al-Kom -- capital of the province of Menoufiya, 50kms north of Cairo -- caused the deaths of some of the children in their care and sold their organs to major hospitals catering to the well-heeled.
They also charged that some of the children's death certificates could have been forgeries.
The deputies, who are members of the ruling National Democratic Party (NDP), said that 25 children, ranging in age from eight months to a year-and-a-half, had died within a two-month period and that their death certificates bore obvious irregularities. The nation was struck with horror.
The story unfolded on 15 March, when, during a parliamentary session, Shafiq El-Guindi, a Menoufiya deputy, announced that he would ask the government for information on the alleged sale of children's organs in the province. Speaker Ahmed Fathi Sorour responded that the request should be referred to parliament's social affairs committee. An angry El-Guindi was advised by Kamal El-Shazli, minister of state for parliamentary affairs, to file an official complaint with the prosecutor-general. The following day, El-Guindi, along with nine other Menoufiya deputies, approached the Prosecutor-General Ragai El-Arabi who agreed to launch an investigation. Children Left at the doorstep photo: Ahmed Abdel- Raziq
The two orphanages targeted by the deputies are the Women's Association for Health Care, founded in 1996 to look after parentless and abandoned children, and the General Association for the Care of the Handicapped, which was founded in 1997 for parentless, handicapped children. The Woman's Association was run by Mona El-Gazzar, while the other orphanage was run by her husband, television director Mohamed Abdel-Aal.
The two were removed late last year after an investigation by the Ministry of Social Affairs uncovered financial irregularities and exposed the poor quality of care at the institutions.
Both orphanages were run by a temporary management until last month, when a permanent team took over. The investigation by the Ministry of Social Affairs was the result of a complaint filed in May 1998 by lawyer Farouk El-Mehallawi, husband of Abdel-Aal's former wife. El-Mehallawi accused Abdel-Aal and his wife Mona El-Gazzar of trading in the children's organs.
Mahmoud El-Naggar, head of the ministry's social services department in Menoufiya, said "money donated to the orphanages was obviously not being used for the children. Upon taking over the orphanages, we found that all the children had been badly looked after, and had malnutrition and health problems, which were left untreated."
El-Naggar said when Abdel-Aal was removed, he closed the orphanage, took the 10 handicapped children to the local social affairs department and left them on the stairs. Social affairs officials, with police assistance, reopened the orphanage and took the children back.
There are rumours that the MPs filed their complaint because they are involved in a dispute with the governor of Menoufiya. It is also said that Abdel-Aal's former wife, Hala Zahran, who used to work with him at the association, approached the MPs in order to set up Abdel-Aal and his new wife, as an act of revenge.
Mahmoud Abul-Nasr, one of the MPs, told Al-Ahram Weekly that "it is true that there are disagreements between us and the governor, but saying that we made up the accusations because of these disagreements is absolutely not true. We are not so evil as to try to gain politically, at the expense of unfortunate children."
Abul-Nasr continued: "After all, isn't it true that 25 children died over two months? Isn't it true that the death certificates have irregular serial numbers? Did we make all this up to fight the governor, or are they facts?"
However, he said that the matter might have been exposed in the wrong way. "We should have gone straight to the prosecutor instead of announcing it in parliament," he said.
Shafik El-Guindi, the MP who requested the information in parliament, said that the matter had to be exposed, "after a high number of citizens pleaded with us to look into the suspicious actions at the association." He added that "the whole matter is mysterious, especially that it is not known where the children were buried."
Shebin Al-Kom's two grave-diggers, who are brothers, were reported to have said that they did not remember burying 25 children in May and June 1998.
"The fact that all the deaths occurred in government hospitals and they all received government-issued death certificates is strange," said El-Guindi.
He said the serial numbers on nine of the death certificates were consecutive, implying that "nobody else died in Shebin Al-Kom during that period." The numbers are also irregular in that certificate number 634330 is dated 2 January while number 634321 is dated 23 June. Moreover, all of the certificates are signed by the same health official, the doctor's signature is always blurred by the government stamp and the reason for death is usually heart failure or heart failure and dehydration. El-Guindi added that the MPs had the originals of the death certificates.
Mohamed Abdel-Aal, the former manager of the orphanage, told the press that the allegations against him were false. No charges have been pressed against him and prosecutors in Menoufiya declined comment, citing an ongoing investigation.
Zakaria Hanafi, lawyer for Abdel-Aal and Gazzar, told the Weekly that the allegations were "absurd". "When the truth comes out and all of the allegations are proved to be false, we will file a lawsuit seeking rehabilitation because these people have tried to do good and, as a result, have had their reputations tarnished."
Hanafi said the children died because they were in such bad condition when they were abandoned. He added that some of them had been found in rubbish bags. With regards to the irregular serial numbers, he said those numbers were taken from copies of the original death certificates.
Asked why Abdel-Aal, who has been described as not being financially well-off, took charge of the association if he did not have enough money to look after the children properly, Hanafi said that Abdel-Aal sold his car and relied on donations, "but he did not know that would not be enough."
In an official statement to parliament, Minister for Social Affairs Mervat Tellawi acknowledged that some of the deaths did occur in the orphanages but that they were "the result of gross negligence by officials and widespread corruption." The ministry launched an investigation and found evidence of financial and administrative irregularities. The results were sent to the governor who replaced the management.
The governor of Menoufiya, Adli Hussein, told the press that "up to 29 children at an orphanage, which is under investigation for alleged trade in children's organs, died of natural causes in the past two years." He said the authorities had not come across any cause for suspicion regarding the children's deaths.
Bahiga Hamam, who was appointed by the government to replace Abdel Aal as director, told the Weekly, "We have no knowledge or evidence about such charges. I don't think there is anything to these allegations." Asked about what the orphanage requires to operate efficiently, Hamam said, "We do not need anything. The donations we receive and the Ministry of Social Affairs give us enough money." Away from the eyes of officials, a three-year-old desperately asked the Weekly for 10 piastres. Given LE1 his face glowed and he said "I will not tell anyone."
The state prosecutor has closed the file on disturbing allegations that orphaned infants in Menoufiya were murdered for their organs Cairo Times
A shocked country can heave a sigh of relief. As it turns out, it's probably not true that (as Akhbar Al Yom put it) a "different kind of human being exists in Shebeen Al Kom than anywhere else in Egypt." On 25 March, state prosecutor Raga Al Arabi announced that he was closing the file on allegations that the custodians of an orphanage in the eastern Delta town had killed children to steal their organs. But this leaves two questions unanswered. First, what exactly did happen to the 25 children who died? Second, assuming the allegations were false, what were the motives of the 10 parliamentarians who circulated the story in the first place--and created widespread negative publicity here and abroad in the process?
The whole chain of events leading to the investigation highlights the Byzantine nature of provincial politics. The orphanage in question first came under suspicion last year. In the summer of 1998, the Menoufiya branch of the Ministry of Social Affairs (MOSA) began to investigate the General Association for the Care of the Handicapped, run by TV director Mohammed Abdel Aal, for alleged financial and administrative "irregularities." These had come to the ministry's attention thanks to the lawyer for Abdel Aal's ex-wife, Hala Zahran. The social affairs ministry began an investigation, and got Governor Hussein to remove Abdel Aal and appoint a new board. (Abdel Aal responded, the ministry's local representative said, by closing the orphanage and dumping the children on the stairs of the local MOSA office.)
The investigation apparently began to lag, but that changed on 15 March. Local parliamentarian Shafiq Al Gindi suddenly announced in parliament that he had received evidence that 25 children at the orphanage had died the previous summer, and that their organs had been sold to wealthy Arabs. (The state press reported that the MP had received this information from Hala Zahran's lawyer.) The next day, Al Gindi and nine other Menoufiya MPs took their information to Menoufiya prosecutor Adel Said. A scandal was born. Egypt, and the world, suddenly heard that there was something very evil going on in Menoufiya, right under the governor's nose.
So what could the motives have been here? Zahran's grievances with her ex-husband are easily enough deduced, but what's less clear is why the MPs were so eager to get involved. The conventional wisdom--voiced by Al Wafd editor Abbas Al Tarabili and others--points to the long-running, well-known enmity between Governor Hussein and the province's parliamentary delegation.
It's a fairly common phenomenon. MPs get themselves elected by promising services which they expect the governor to deliver, or by organizing local charities (orphanages, for example), that the governor is supposed to regulate. The governor, meanwhile, is appointed from Cairo--he's never a native of the province he's supposed to govern--expressly to keep a tight control on things. The governor's often from the military, security forces, or judiciary (Hussein's a former prosecutor); the parliamentarians are more often local businessmen or professionals. Essentially, it's a conflict between the two sides of the regime, the part that rules by coaxing and the part that rules by commanding.
So would MPs really make up a story like this out of whole cloth, endangering the reputation of the nation, simply to remove a rival? Twenty-five deaths in two months is suspicious (although Governor Hussein told state newspapers on 18 March that such rates are natural in orphanages, where many of the wards are foundling newborns who arrive dehydrated and hypothermic).
Filed at Shebeen Al Kom's educational hospital are the death certificates, whose serial numbers the MPs say are consecutive, indicating that nobody else died in Menoufiya within the same time period. Then there are press reports that Shebeen Al Kom's two gravediggers couldn't recall burying the children.
None of this indicates that any organs were stolen. All of the children were less than two years old, and, as health ministry officials have pointed out, Egypt doesn't have the technology for transplant from infant donors. Gross negligence, perhaps, but outright murder seems unlikely. That, at any rate, was the opinion that the press was coming round to when the state prosecutor announced on 25 March that the case was closed. One more thing--he asked journalists not to write about issues that could harm the Egypt's reputation. Given that the state apparatus in Menoufiya seems quite capable of trashing the country's reputation on its own, and local journalists are, if anything, the ones in the best position to set things straight, that seems a strange request to make.
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Gosh, why you are digging this old stuff out and put it in the 'love/marriage forum"? I was reading it years ago. Why don't you write something about your short stays while being in Shebin yourself?
And BTW, I fully doubt that you have been ever to Shoubra; well at least you pronounced it right. Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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The astonishing and horrifying complaint made by 10 members of parliament that two orphanages in the province of Menoufiya had caused the deaths of children in their care and sold their organs to major hospitals catering for the well-heeled, has been shelved by Prosecutor-General Raga'a El-Arabi.
El-Arabi took the decision last Thursday after hearing the testimonies of eight of the 10 MPs against two of the former managers of the orphanage for parentless and abandoned children. Two of the MPs, Shafik El-Guindi and Ezzeddin Nassar, failed to show up for the hearing. The eight deputies testified that they based their complaint on information obtained from a lawyer, Farouk El-Mehallawi, who showed them the death certificates of nine children who had died while in the care of the orphanage. They argued that the certificates were suspicious because they carried consecutive serial numbers and because the nine deaths occurred in a short period of time between January and June 1998.
El-Mehallawi, who was summoned to testify, said he had been asked by Hala Zahran, the former wife of Abdel-Mohsen Abdel-Aal, who used to manage one of the orphanages, to initiate legal action against her former husband for alimony payments. El-Mehallawi claimed that Zahran had told him that Abdel-Aal had made a lot of money from trading in children's organs.
Zahran, however, denied El-Mehallawi's claims, insisting that she had not authorised him to initiate any legal action. She also denied any knowledge of an illegal trade in human organs.
Abdel-Aal and his second wife, Mona El-Gazzar, the former manager of the second orphanage, also denied El-Mehallawi's claims, accusing him of being motivated by a personal feud.
Investigators also questioned the chief district coroner, who asserted that organs belonging to children less than a year old were not fit for transplants.
Shortly after the opening session of parliament in November, a group of deputies from the ruling National Democratic Party (NDP) openly challenged Prime Minister Kamal El-Ganzouri. Analysts said that the unusual protest was sparked off by El-Ganzouri's refusal to respond to their demands for the dismissal of certain provincial governors with whom they are not on good terms. Menoufiya Governor Adli Hussein, who was involved in a number of disputes with Menoufiya deputies last summer, was repeatedly mentioned by the group.
In a surprise move, 10 Menoufiya deputies took the unprecedented step of collectively filing a complaint with the prosecutor-general, claiming that two orphanages in their province were involved in the illegal trade of human organs. The deputies said they made the complaint in order to expose the illegal activities. But to many observers, the move was a further escalation in the long war between Menoufiya's MPs and its governor. Hussein described the MPs' complaint as a "flagrant attempt to settle old scores". "This issue was investigated several times over the past two years," he said. "Why should the deputies decide to raise it now? They claim they knew about it only 15 days ago, but this just proves they are totally unaware of what is going on in their governorate."
The Menoufiya deputies also sought open confrontation with Hussein in the People's Assembly, but the meeting was cancelled unexpectedly. The explanation offered by a spokesman for Speaker Ahmed Fathi Sorour's office was that the Assembly is not empowered to discuss a complaint under investigation by the prosecutor-general. Some observers, however, remained unconvinced; independent and opposition deputies claimed that senior political figures intervened to have the meeting cancelled.
Independent MP Ahmed Taha told Al-Ahram Weekly that the complaint filed by the deputies was part of their campaign against the governor. "These deputies feel that they lost the first round in the confrontation with the governor," Taha said. "They see that they were severely humiliated by El-Ganzouri's refusal to bow to their demand for his [the governor's] dismissal... Now they feel they have an opportunity to defame the governor and put fresh pressure on El-Ganzouri to dismiss him. It is rare to see several deputies from one governorate agreeing to raise a certain issue which could have been raised by one deputy."
Some analysts believe the stand-off between the governor and the deputies is a reflection of a conflict between the government and leading members of the NDP. "There is a general feeling among NDP members that city councils and municipalities should be harnessed to serve their interests, or the interests of their constituencies," said Taha. "But they see that El-Ganzouri is strong and unyielding. He decided to hold the portfolio of local administration himself. This gave many government officials and provincial governors the opportunity to challenge NDP deputies as unfit and unqualified to represent the will of the people in parliament."
Last November, Governor Hussein supported a campaign by a national newspaper against NDP deputies, describing them in an article as "opportunists who seek to advance personal interests and who lack credibility in their own constituencies."
Aware that the present situation in local administration is not in their favour, several NDP deputies, during a two-week debate of the government's policy statement, urged that a special minister be appointed.
Hassan Gibril, NDP deputy for the Beheira Governorate, demanded reform of the local administration system as well as the appointment of a minister.
Abdel-Fattah El-Dali, chairman of parliament's local administration committee, complained that the government was unwilling to cooperate with the committee. During the current parliamentary session, the governors of Assiut and Sohag declined to attend two meetings organised by the committee to evaluate their cooperation with NDP deputies.
birth certificate "serial numbers" aren't often given to children before they start either their vacinations or school. Sometimes vacinations are registered with the government otherwise children aren't given serial numbers until later. Which might explain why they were given serial numbers at their time of death.
Posts: 3168 | From: If you don't like it, don't look or read it! | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: Gosh, why you are digging this old stuff out and put it in the 'love/marriage forum"? I was reading it years ago. Why don't you write something about your short stays while being in Shebin yourself?
And BTW, I fully doubt that you have been ever to Shoubra; well at least you pronounced it right.
Huh?
What is your point? If you had this information before then you would've rubbed it in my face.
This might be a more "woman-friendly" topic to discuss, how children's issues often become a toy between two warring political factions.
I won't discuss my stays in Shebin because when I had Egyptians who's heritage is from the Nile Delta but have proper family connections in Cairo want to explain to me what they consider Shebin to be.
Besides I remember you posting something about how you had only been on the internet for a few months when you had joined ES. Kinda strange you'd run into these articles before now. Besides according to you, you were in Cairo 13 years ago, so either you lied about being on the internet for less than a year when you joined ES or you've never heard of this before in your life. This happened over a year after you left.
So do you have anything useful to say? About corruption and vendettas between the NDP and Menoufia's governor.
Mind you Tigerweed, the spelling of Shoubra is in Arabi script, not Roman letters. So if you run across an internationally recognized transliteration of Arabi script into Roman letters please let all Near Eastern Studies organizations know because none of them have come to a concensus yet on this matter.
Posts: 3168 | From: If you don't like it, don't look or read it! | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: Gosh, why you are digging this old stuff out and put it in the 'love/marriage forum"? I was reading it years ago. Why don't you write something about your short stays while being in Shebin yourself?
And BTW, I fully doubt that you have been ever to Shoubra; well at least you pronounced it right.
Huh?
What is your point? If you had this information before then you would've rubbed it in my face.
This might be a more "woman-friendly" topic to discuss, how children's issues often become a toy between two warring political factions.
I won't discuss my stays in Shebin because when I had Egyptians who's heritage is from the Nile Delta but have proper family connections in Cairo want to explain to me what they consider Shebin to be.
Besides I remember you posting something about how you had only been on the internet for a few months when you had joined ES. Kinda strange you'd run into these articles before now. Besides according to you, you were in Cairo 13 years ago, so either you lied about being on the internet for less than a year when you joined ES or you've never heard of this before in your life. This happened over a year after you left.
So do you have anything useful to say? About corruption and vendettas between the NDP and Menoufia's governor.
Mind you Tigerweed, the spelling of Shoubra is in Arabi script, not Roman letters. So if you run across an internationally recognized transliteration of Arabi script into Roman letters please let all Near Eastern Studies organizations know because none of them have come to a concensus yet on this matter.
Digging old stuff out to find a reason out of nowhere to bash Egypt
This is one of your non-Egyptian friendly topics
Sono, assumptions is the mother of all fcuk-ups so you're thinking you're smart, assuming & making stuff up to prove she's lying? typical Sono shredded thinking...... People read the newspapers & people dig out any article or info from the net that was there ages ago just like you did
Being a Minnesotan with Scandinavian heritage doesnt make you superior to Egyptians, racist Posts: 3128 | From: Not Your Heaven | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Chinderella angel TORMENTOR: Shebin Al-Kom?? Kom Omek
kom el sho2afa... da kom zebala min zebaletha... sitt zibala sa7ee7..
Posts: 165 | From: São paulo/Brazil Cairo/Egypt | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Chinderella angel TORMENTOR:
quote:Originally posted by Everyone's_a_Pascha:
quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: Gosh, why you are digging this old stuff out and put it in the 'love/marriage forum"? I was reading it years ago. Why don't you write something about your short stays while being in Shebin yourself?
And BTW, I fully doubt that you have been ever to Shoubra; well at least you pronounced it right.
Huh?
What is your point? If you had this information before then you would've rubbed it in my face.
This might be a more "woman-friendly" topic to discuss, how children's issues often become a toy between two warring political factions.
I won't discuss my stays in Shebin because when I had Egyptians who's heritage is from the Nile Delta but have proper family connections in Cairo want to explain to me what they consider Shebin to be.
Besides I remember you posting something about how you had only been on the internet for a few months when you had joined ES. Kinda strange you'd run into these articles before now. Besides according to you, you were in Cairo 13 years ago, so either you lied about being on the internet for less than a year when you joined ES or you've never heard of this before in your life. This happened over a year after you left.
So do you have anything useful to say? About corruption and vendettas between the NDP and Menoufia's governor.
Mind you Tigerweed, the spelling of Shoubra is in Arabi script, not Roman letters. So if you run across an internationally recognized transliteration of Arabi script into Roman letters please let all Near Eastern Studies organizations know because none of them have come to a concensus yet on this matter.
Digging old stuff out to find a reason out of nowhere to bash Egypt
This is one of your non-Egyptian friendly topics
Sono, assumptions is the mother of all fcuk-ups so you're thinking you're smart, assuming & making stuff up to prove she's lying? typical Sono shredded thinking...... People read the newspapers & people dig out any article or info from the net that was there ages ago just like you did
Being a Minnesotan with Scandinavian heritage doesnt make you superior to Egyptians, racist
Being a Minnesotan with Scandinavian heritage doesnt make you superior to Egyptians, racist
Go back through my posts and prove that I had ever posted anything that resembles this!
This is one of your non-Egyptian friendly topics
Hello this happened in Egypt! How could it be a "non-Egyptian" topic.
And hello, this was done in Shebin el-Kaum by people who are not originally from Shebin el-Kaum. Being in the media industry shielded him from local criticism. Notice how in the second article it was written:
"different kind of human being exists in Shebeen Al Kom than anywhere else in Egypt."
When the directors weren't even from Shebin?
Hello?
Its relevant because this had happened in Shebin, the incident was blamed on the people of Shebin when the actual responsible parties are not from Shebin. Hence, a prevailing prejudice against people from Shebin built upon lies.
If you keep on top of scandals like this you'll notice most often that people with power and authority abuse it at vulnerable person's expense.
But that isn't something you'd pick up from these scandals because you don't have compassion in your heart.
Posts: 3168 | From: If you don't like it, don't look or read it! | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Everyone's_a_Pascha: Being a Minnesotan with Scandinavian heritage doesnt make you superior to Egyptians, racist
Go back through my posts and prove that I had ever posted anything that resembles this!
This is one of your non-Egyptian friendly topics
Hello this happened in Egypt! How could it be a "non-Egyptian" topic.
And hello, this was done in Shebin el-Kaum by people who are not originally from Shebin el-Kaum. Being in the media industry shielded him from local criticism. Notice how in the second article it was written:
"different kind of human being exists in Shebeen Al Kom than anywhere else in Egypt."
When the directors weren't even from Shebin?
Hello?
Its relevant because this had happened in Shebin, the incident was blamed on the people of Shebin when the actual responsible parties are not from Shebin. Hence, a prevailing prejudice against people from Shebin built upon lies.
If you keep on top of scandals like this you'll notice most often that people with power and authority abuse it at vulnerable person's expense.
But that isn't something you'd pick up from these scandals because you don't have compassion in your heart. [/qb]
Sorry I meant Egyptian..... non-Egyptian was a typing mistake.
You are not to tell who has campassion in his/ her heart.
I was pointing out the fact that you like to bash Egypt apart from the article you posted & this is something you cant deny
You are discriminating against Egyptians & that's my proof
Have you seen the "Yacoubian Building" movie?
Posts: 3128 | From: Not Your Heaven | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Chinderella angel TORMENTOR: Sorry I meant Egyptian..... non-Egyptian was a typing mistake.
You are not to tell who has campassion in his/ her heart.
I was pointing out the fact that you like to bash Egypt apart from the article you posted & this is something you cant deny
You are discriminating against Egyptians & that's my proof
Have you seen the "Yacoubian Building" movie?
So as long as I point out something other than the less than rosy scandals on Shebin el-Kaum, all my posts revolve around Egypt bashing? Which shows the prejudice towards this town. Why don't many of the nouve-riche on ES have a complex about Luxor/Aswan gigilos? Its not like those two towns have to import their gigilos!
Do you understand just because I find you trite, immature, self-centered and basically a bimbo doesn't mean I have the same dislike for Egypt. You are not Egypt, you just happen to be of Egyptian heritage.
Now like as I had to explain to our resident ES journalist there is a difference between "rumor" and "fact". Just because its in black and white doesn't mean its true. Your "proof" needs to have a concensus built upon fact, not group think.
That stupid thread Sammy had deleted where you went on and on about having 50 kids and wanting to rendevous with Trashmouth basically is your shinning example of "cripple maker" type thread. You can deny it but most people who were raised to see negative stereotypes of the economically disadvantaged as having bad taste, lack of moral fiber and overall lack of belief in God; don't find it funny.
I guess its part of what I have to expect from the nouve-riche in Egypt. Its just so disappointing.
Yeah I saw yacoubian building, with subtitles. I had posted that in the past.
Posts: 3168 | From: If you don't like it, don't look or read it! | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Everyone's_a_Pascha: So as long as I point out something other than the less than rosy scandals on Shebin el-Kaum, all my posts revolve around Egypt bashing? Which shows the prejudice towards this town. Why don't many of the nouve-riche on ES have a complex about Luxor/Aswan gigilos? Its not like those two towns have to import their gigilos!
Do you understand just because I find you trite, immature, self-centered and basically a bimbo doesn't mean I have the same dislike for Egypt. You are not Egypt, you just happen to be of Egyptian heritage.
Now like as I had to explain to our resident ES journalist there is a difference between "rumor" and "fact". Just because its in black and white doesn't mean its true. Your "proof" needs to have a concensus built upon fact, not group think.
That stupid thread Sammy had deleted where you went on and on about having 50 kids and wanting to rendevous with Trashmouth basically is your shinning example of "cripple maker" type thread. You can deny it but most people who were raised to see negative stereotypes of the economically disadvantaged as having bad taste, lack of moral fiber and overall lack of belief in God; don't find it funny.
I guess its part of what I have to expect from the nouve-riche in Egypt. Its just so disappointing.
Yeah I saw yacoubian building, with subtitles. I had posted that in the past. [/QB]
Judging people when they are just fooling around having harmless fun (even if you dont find it funny) is a dumb thing to do...... btw, sammy did not delete my thread .... i have no idea what thread you are tallking about.... i'm sure it does not concern me.
Oh lack of belief in god? where the hell did you come up with that? OMG you are definately a dumbo
Who brought gigogols to this conversation??Bimbo.... you are thinking from underneath your belt
my charachter analysis that you came up with is very telling Sono ... projection? Huh? Posts: 3128 | From: Not Your Heaven | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Chinderella angel TORMENTOR: Judging people when they are just fooling around having harmless fun (even if you dont find it funny) is a dumb thing to do...... btw, sammy did not delete my thread .... i have no idea what thread you are tallking about.... i'm sure it does not concern me.
Oh lack of belief in god? where the hell did you come up with that? OMG you are definately a dumbo
Who brought gigogols to this conversation??Bimbo.... you are thinking from underneath your belt
my charachter analysis that you came up with is very telling Sono ... projection? Huh?
Thinking underneath the belt, bimbo...... Well I am not a lesbian. I don't have a women from another board impersonate a guy and then talk dirty between each other for 2 days. I mean its just extremely gross.
In my culture we see sex for money as degrading and disguisting. So gigilos and prostitutes don't hold any coveted position in our soceity unlike Upper Egypt.
Plus I grew up seeing as marriage and love as totally compatible, cannot have one without the other. So I don't see why married people go looking for love in gigilos. Its not the way I was raised.
Your idea of moral degredation is so much different than mine.
Besides I wasted most of my weekend that didn't involve FOTs (Family obligated Trips) and housework on this board trying to figure out why you are such a fruit and if there is any possibility of you realizing just how bad you make Egyptian girls look. You are worse than 7ayat.
I'll try to ignore you from now on. waste of energy. But you won't run me off this board. You are just such a twerp.
Posts: 3168 | From: If you don't like it, don't look or read it! | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:So as long as I point out something other than the less than rosy scandals on Shebin el-Kaum, all my posts revolve around Egypt bashing? Which shows the prejudice towards this town. Why don't many of the nouve-riche on ES have a complex about Luxor/Aswan gigilos? Its not like those two towns have to import their gigilos!
Do you understand just because I find you trite, immature, self-centered and basically a bimbo doesn't mean I have the same dislike for Egypt. You are not Egypt, you just happen to be of Egyptian heritage.
Now like as I had to explain to our resident ES journalist there is a difference between "rumor" and "fact". Just because its in black and white doesn't mean its true. Your "proof" needs to have a concensus built upon fact, not group think.
That stupid thread Sammy had deleted where you went on and on about having 50 kids and wanting to rendevous with Trashmouth basically is your shinning example of "cripple maker" type thread. You can deny it but most people who were raised to see negative stereotypes of the economically disadvantaged as having bad taste, lack of moral fiber and overall lack of belief in God; don't find it funny.
I guess its part of what I have to expect from the nouve-riche in Egypt. Its just so disappointing.
Yeah I saw yacoubian building, with subtitles. I had posted that in the past. [/QB]
quote:Originally posted by Everyone's_a_Pascha: Thinking underneath the belt, bimbo...... Well I am not a lesbian. I don't have a women from another board impersonate a guy and then talk dirty between each other for 2 days. I mean its just extremely gross.
In my culture we see sex for money as degrading and disguisting. So gigilos and prostitutes don't hold any coveted position in our soceity unlike Upper Egypt.
Plus I grew up seeing as marriage and love as totally compatible, cannot have one without the other. So I don't see why married people go looking for love in gigilos. Its not the way I was raised.
Your idea of moral degredation is so much different than mine.
Besides I wasted most of my weekend that didn't involve FOTs (Family obligated Trips) and housework on this board trying to figure out why you are such a fruit and if there is any possibility of you realizing just how bad you make Egyptian girls look. You are worse than 7ayat.
I'll try to ignore you from now on. waste of energy. But you won't run me off this board. You are just such a twerp. [/QB]
Ironic isn it? everyone here thinks you're the twerp, insignificant, inconsequential.
Why are you telling me your life story?.... i dont care whether you do the FOTs or not
btw, you are an unattractive female but you believe you are...... dillusional Posts: 3128 | From: Not Your Heaven | Registered: Sep 2006
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I got a BIG BOX of new movies for Mister K frome these folks. Super friendly, and really generousl with pricing. It is wonderful to have him watch the newest movies availiable and see Cairo and Hurghanda and Alexandria as he remembers it, and not in movies that are 50+ years old on the television. Also I got the "sesame street" videos for numbers and the alphabet... uncanny learning tools.
You guys were talking about the Yacoubian Building movie and well... sorry if I went off topic.
To get back on topic... ahhh... "YOU SUCK!"
Posts: 1071 | Registered: Aug 2005
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I got a BIG BOX of new movies for Mister K frome these folks. Super friendly, and really generousl with pricing. It is wonderful to have him watch the newest movies availiable and see Cairo and Hurghanda and Alexandria as he remembers it, and not in movies that are 50+ years old on the television. Also I got the "sesame street" videos for numbers and the alphabet... uncanny learning tools.
You guys were talking about the Yacoubian Building movie and well... sorry if I went off topic.
To get back on topic... ahhh... "YOU SUCK!"
Who exactly are you referring to??
If both of us?.... you could be right
If sono? you are also right
If me? you are wrong & "YOU SUCK"
You choose Cosmo honey Posts: 3128 | From: Not Your Heaven | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
is there any other newspaper has published that news ? like el gomhoria, el akhbar ? I live in Shebin and never heard of such news. it could be a lie
Posts: 1201 | From: Egypt | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Mr Egypt: is there any other newspaper has published that news ? like el gomhoria, el akhbar ? I live in Shebin and never heard of such news. it could be a lie
Which Shebin do you live in? All I know is my in-laws are rather touchy about the subject of orphanages. They haven't admitted to an orphanage located in Shebin. But it sounds as if its a home for handicap children too.
No I didn't check any of the archives in other newspapers, because most don't keep news on a decade ago online.
Posts: 3168 | From: If you don't like it, don't look or read it! | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
I believe you mean "nouveau riche." No one on this forum authors their posts with anything that would indicate any pedigree. Let us have an attempt at some dignity, please.
Posts: 345 | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Graf_Genn: I believe you mean "nouveau riche." No one on this forum authors their posts with anything that would indicate any pedigree. Let us have an attempt at some dignity, please.
Actually posting that "daddy has a factory" and "grandpa was a pascha" and "I am the 1%" is pretty much an indication of pedigree.
If declarations such as those are an exchange for dignity then I guess some of us need to tone down the pedigree references.
And I have seen about 6 different spellings for "nouveau riche" it depends on which grammatic discipline you follow. But at the same time this is a forum and not English class. Its so bizarre when usernames turn to correcting others spelling, grammar, transliteration when they are grasping at points to make......
Posts: 3168 | From: If you don't like it, don't look or read it! | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Mr Egypt: is there any other newspaper has published that news ? like el gomhoria, el akhbar ? I live in Shebin and never heard of such news. it could be a lie
Assalamu alaykum Mr. Egypt,
If you look at the bottom of the articles, you can see that they are from 1999; the news is more than 7 years old.
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Graf_Genn: I believe you mean "nouveau riche." No one on this forum authors their posts with anything that would indicate any pedigree. Let us have an attempt at some dignity, please.
Actually posting that "daddy has a factory" and "grandpa was a pascha" and "I am the 1%" is pretty much an indication of pedigree.
If declarations such as those are an exchange for dignity then I guess some of us need to tone down the pedigree references.
And I have seen about 6 different spellings for "nouveau riche" it depends on which grammatic discipline you follow. But at the same time this is a forum and not English class. Its so bizarre when usernames turn to correcting others spelling, grammar, transliteration when they are grasping at points to make......
For an Egyptian my english is pretty good while you as an american you're english is pretty bad especially for an ESL teacher. Most of my typing mistakes are not because I cant spell but because I am not a good keyboard typist
So we cant compare our english anyway because you are a native speaker.... but we can say that are not well educated.
Staying in Shebin for a few weeks doesnt make you an expert on Egypt & on the Egyptian social class system.... doesnt make you either good at telling who's nouveau riche & who's not..... Also marrying into a low class family shows how knowledgeable you are about this
Reading books about Egypt also is not enough..... it's not like getting out there & dealing with all sorts of people
Posts: 3128 | From: Not Your Heaven | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Chinderella angel TORMENTOR:
quote:Originally posted by Everyone's_a_Pascha:
quote:Originally posted by Graf_Genn: I believe you mean "nouveau riche." No one on this forum authors their posts with anything that would indicate any pedigree. Let us have an attempt at some dignity, please.
Actually posting that "daddy has a factory" and "grandpa was a pascha" and "I am the 1%" is pretty much an indication of pedigree.
If declarations such as those are an exchange for dignity then I guess some of us need to tone down the pedigree references.
And I have seen about 6 different spellings for "nouveau riche" it depends on which grammatic discipline you follow. But at the same time this is a forum and not English class. Its so bizarre when usernames turn to correcting others spelling, grammar, transliteration when they are grasping at points to make......
For an Egyptian my english is pretty good while you as an american you're english is pretty bad especially for an ESL teacher. Most of my typing mistakes are not because I cant spell but because I am not a good keyboard typist
So we cant compare our english anyway because you are a native speaker.... but we can say that are not well educated.
Staying in Shebin for a few weeks doesnt make you an expert on Egypt & on the Egyptian social class system.... doesnt make you either good at telling who's nouveau riche & who's not..... Also marrying into a low class family shows how knowledgeable you are about this
Reading books about Egypt also is not enough..... it's not like getting out there & dealing with all sorts of people
Excuse me. My in-laws didn't need to set up a factory because they had enough wealth before Nasser's & Sadat's liberalization policies.
Besides most Egyptians who claim that "grandpa was a Pascha" is mainly because grandpa finished his secondary exams (high school) and therefore was egibile for government employment. All government employees back then were called pascha.
You are just making declarations like this knowing that most westerners are not aware of the class system evolution during the last century in Egypt.
I actually have read a number of books on Egyptian economic history, which in turn is a history of Egyptian class systems.
Sorry, but you are not fooling me.
I have gently validated my findings with my in-laws, which I can do because most of the immediate family and half of the extended family speaks fluent english. Unlike most western women who marry egyptian men, these women are lucky if their husband's can speak 600 words in English.
Posts: 3168 | From: If you don't like it, don't look or read it! | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
You have completely misunderstood the post. My intention was to say that people are authoring their posts as if they haven't even been raised to behave with civility. I am not grasping at any point of yours to make, but making my own, which you may have failed to grasp. You have mentioned nouveau riche multiple times, yet you keep becoming entangled in these fits of bickering that plague this forum. I was indicating that the type of language and behaviour we are seeing does not exemplify pedigree. I gathered that you may have expected more from yourself. I won't participate further than this post in order to uphold the qualities I have been brought up with.
quote:And I have seen about 6 different spellings for "nouveau riche" it depends on which grammatic discipline you follow. But at the same time this is a forum and not English class. Its so bizarre when usernames turn to correcting others spelling, grammar, transliteration when they are grasping at points to make......
There is only one spelling for "nouveau riche" and that is the French spelling. So much for English Class? The irony...
You can fume at me more if you like, but I suggest we move on. Posts: 345 | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Everyone's_a_Pascha: Excuse me. My in-laws didn't need to set up a factory because they had enough wealth before Nasser's & Sadat's liberalization policies.
Besides most Egyptians who claim that "grandpa was a Pascha" is mainly because grandpa finished his secondary exams (high school) and therefore was egibile for government employment. All government employees back then were called pascha.
You are just making declarations like this knowing that most westerners are not aware of the class system evolution during the last century in Egypt.
I actually have read a number of books on Egyptian economic history, which in turn is a history of Egyptian class systems.
Sorry, but you are not fooling me.
I have gently validated my findings with my in-laws, which I can do because most of the immediate family and half of the extended family speaks fluent english. Unlike most western women who marry egyptian men, these women are lucky if their husband's can speak 600 words in English. [/QB]
Sono, believe it or not, my grandfather has 2 PHD's in Chemical engineering... he just earned his second PHD last year.... so you dont fool me with your ignorance..... a person who has a PHD did not only earn his secondary school degree.....
Why would I fool you? it doesnt make any sense
History books give you facts but it's not all about books Sono.... not all books are accurate & if they were they are still not enough..... that's why when you make a degree it's important that you gain work experience to succeed... & not have your head filled with theories that have no relation to real life.
Posts: 3128 | From: Not Your Heaven | Registered: Sep 2006
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Can you reply to that Sono? when i can prove that you're theories are wrong you dont reply but otherwise you just like to argue for the sake of it.... you're just the waste of energy.
Posts: 3128 | From: Not Your Heaven | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
i doubt if that wierdo reads anything but ketab 7ayaty ya 3een... enty bero7 ommik fakrah nafsik el zama7`shary..??? shoubra...shebin... some real base for knowledge about civilized Egypt... when i said she`s retarded i was very accurate...
-------------------- muito obrigado por voces Posts: 165 | From: São paulo/Brazil Cairo/Egypt | Registered: Sep 2006
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I doubt that I can make any peace between you two so I am not going to try, but I suspect she can indeed reply. Personally, I would like to think she has just seen that these off topic fits do not do anyone any good and she may have decided not to stay involved. Let's try to represent our better qualities Posts: 345 | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Chinderella angel TORMENTOR: Can you reply to that Sono? when i can prove that you're theories are wrong you dont reply but otherwise you just like to argue for the sake of it.... you're just the waste of energy.
Actually I was speeding down to the university on the fastest transit in the hood, bicycle.
I am losing interest in this crap. I swear very few Egy-board usernames are willing to create a rapidly inflating alter-ego such as yourself.
Even MK was willing to admit to Tibe when Tibe pointed out that MK's surgeon husband worked at a clinic but didn't actually own the clinic like MK had claimed. MK's only response was "you actually believed that dribble".
I could back off and let you irritate the hell out of someone else, which you will eventually. Then let someone else dig up you mundane life and embarrass you with the truth. Just want to up the ante so you fall even harder than MK.
I had done this with hellraiser, and still but heads with loads of Egyptian guys who are mainly here for either a meal ticket or an easy western lay.
Posts: 3168 | From: If you don't like it, don't look or read it! | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Graf_Genn: I doubt that I can make any peace between you two so I am not going to try, but I suspect she can indeed reply. Personally, I would like to think she has just seen that these off topic fits do not do anyone any good and she may have decided not to stay involved. Let's try to represent our better qualities
Thank you Graf-Genn, you seem indeed like a good quality person
I guess she learned the hard way...... since she's the one who started these off topic arguments
No I dont want to be in peace with Sono... she's nuts & hormonal....what started this was a compliment.... yes a compliment I made about her that she didnt get.... she only got the negative meaning of it that I didnt even think of.... paranoid??? Posts: 3128 | From: Not Your Heaven | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Chinderella angel TORMENTOR: Can you reply to that Sono? when i can prove that you're theories are wrong you dont reply but otherwise you just like to argue for the sake of it.... you're just the waste of energy.
Actually I was speeding down to the university on the fastest transit in the hood, bicycle.
I am losing interest in this crap. I swear very few Egy-board usernames are willing to create a rapidly inflating alter-ego such as yourself.
Even MK was willing to admit to Tibe when Tibe pointed out that MK's surgeon husband worked at a clinic but didn't actually own the clinic like MK had claimed. MK's only response was "you actually believed that dribble".
I could back off and let you irritate the hell out of someone else, which you will eventually. Then let someone else dig up you mundane life and embarrass you with the truth. Just want to up the ante so you fall even harder than MK.
you are an idiot Sono
You have nothing to do but attack rather than admit you are wrong
I am saying the truth..... just because you dont see it ..... doesnt mean it's not true....
I said before I dont have to submit a resume or a family history here but mentioning stuff about them is to defend myself...... I am not showing off because it's a fact.
Would you let MK out of this? your problem is that you think you are smart but you arent.... you're just a book worm who knows nothing about real life in Egypt.
You do make some good points & good posts but not all of them are
Posts: 3128 | From: Not Your Heaven | Registered: Sep 2006
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No no I was more or less quoting the both of you, standing on either side of a fence and shouting the same thing at each other! I find neither of you sucky, and both incredibly interesting to read. (imtersting, amusing, and expending alot of energy) Good God the internet is an unusual place.
Posts: 1071 | Registered: Aug 2005
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