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Originally posted by cultureclash:
This is my first post on this forum so please forgive any accidental breaches of etiquette.

I am looking for a little advice on my current situation.

I am a British man in love with an Egyptian woman.

She is well educated, Muslim but quite liberal in some ways (i.e. no hijab), independent and older than usual for marriage in Egypt.

I am ostensibly Christian but agnostic i.e. non-religious, well educated with a good job living in England.

Her father is traditional and wants her to marry an Egyptian quickly i.e. before she is too old (as seen in that culture). He has however assented to her marrying me but there are a number of conditions.

I must convert to Islam and any children must be brought up in that way. I understand that this is an absolute requirement. I am willing to convert but it is unlikely that I can ever follow every tenet of the Islamic religion.

This is my most serious concern.

There are also several financial requirements including a dowry of £10k, an 'on divorce' settlement of £30k and a furnished flat in Egypt as insurance against divorce.

This is obviously quite a strange concept to someone in England. While I understand the reasons for the conditions, the financial requirements are quite impossible as my wealth is almost wholly invested in the house that I live in.

Provided a wedding in Egypt is lawful, my wife would have the rights and protection associated with marriage in England. This is considerable, often at least half of all marital assets which in this case is more than the requested financial settlement.

This is obviously something I will need to discuss with my prospective bride/her father but any advice would be gratefully received.

I am also concerned about certain traditional (but I understand non-Islamic) medical procedures that are common in almost all Egyptian girls.
Again, any advice would be appreciated.

I am doing my own research and will obviously discuss most of this with the people concerned, but a wider viewpoint is always appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

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Posts: 1967 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Laura:
If a christian woman had made this post, everyone would tell her marriage is no reason for conversion.

Should it be any different for a man?

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Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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I'm not religious so I will not want my children to go to a Christian church but there is a limit to how much I can compromise on my personal ethics.

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While I appreciate all views, I find it difficult to believe that no 'respectable' family in Egypt could countenance the marriage of their daughter to a foreigner. Times they are a changin', even in Egypt.

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Sorry to say this, but......you have no idea. I'm going through this same thing at the moment. Sort of. I'm not accepted, but for different reasons. They love me, love him, respect us both, but are sooooooooo traditional. So now it's in God's hands.

Anyway, keep your hope, faith, and strength, and don't quit trying. But do not expect them to be so open minded. Cuz sorry but, it's just not a very common thing in certain parts of Egypt. Even these days.

I know this is a negative post. Sorry for that. Just the facts that I have learned. Good luck. I wish you and her the best.

Posts: 2133 | From: Redneckland | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Demiana:
Hi Hibbah,
As there is not one single authority in christianity neither is there in Islam, although some may want you to believe that.

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Posts: 1967 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by TamerSaid:
the nice family in egypt or the respected family cant ever never accepted this so i think they only looking for your money.

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This statement is so typical of the Egyptian male-dominated rigid and dumb mentality.

Times are changing and many "nice" and "respected" families have come to accept the fact that their daughters can make their own choices of choosing to marry whoever they want, if they EVER CHOOSE to marry, which is also a new trend in Egypt. Yes, believe it or not, some Egyptian women rather stay single than be unhappily married.

Egyptian males made up a lie and believed it that they are superior to males of other nationalities. When an Egyptian male opts for a foreign wife, then he's a winner and a stud and God's gift to her and she should be so thankful for his eternal tantrums and malignant ego. And their children are the most beautiful in the whole wide extended family only because their mommy is Blondie and so they are!

And once an Egyptian woman chooses for a foreign husband, then she's a whore and her family is low class and she has done it only because she failed to win the lottery of marrying a super Egyptian man, so the poor soul opted for a second best who sadly happens to love her and understand her and respect her and not lie to her and actually goes as far as flossing his teeth for her!

Converts will always be accused of being untrue or incomplete Muslims. Be it for matrimonial purposes or for otherwise, a convert is never good enough for the "true Arab Muslims". Like Islam is a genetic trait or something. Only God knows that most of those born-Muslims are God's lowest rank hypocrites, and that God is the true judge for what's in our heart.

CC, I would like to share a couple of thoughts with you:

1- Marrying an Egyptian Muslim woman is not easy. You are aware that you are making a sacrifice and a commitment for life, aren't you? You have to understand what it means to convert before you do. I have sadly seen how several women on this forum who converted for their summer flings and later on ended up in an identity crisis and several conflict about their children's affiliation. Let alone those stories/nightmares of kidnapping children and disappearing without a trace.

I don't know how strict your lady is, but you might have fights over your having an alcoholic drink or about the origins of a funny looking sandwich that could say oink if it was alive. You could get offended and take it personally that she doesn't want you to kiss her sometimes for you don't know that she has just washed and on the way to pray and is supposed to stay "unsullied" until she does her prayer. Those small misinterpretations can create lots of tension if you're not ready for them.

2- Those financial issues are also something typical of our culture. The real reason why families ask for lots of money and a house for the bride, is simply the fact that men can be untrustworthy "if taken only at face value", and when they make financial commitments, they become more serious. It's a bit different in my family, but my family is unique in many things. My sister married a young man who adored her for 7 years before she took notice of him! Got the approval based on his incredibly lovely family and his well-known reputation. Yes his family is well-off, and so is our family, but the mahr and shbaka and mo2akhar so on were not that much of an issue when everything was (mashaAllah) going so peacefully and based on mutual respect.
You can sit with her dad and explain to him what you have, and that you will be willing to offer her the best you can afford, and yes, everything in Egypt is negotiable, even this issue! And if they turn you down because you can't afford some bricks in Cairo where saraseer will have a blast while you're gone most of the year, then save yourself the trouble and let them cry over their lost saraseer.

Saraseer are cockroaches BTW. They are the most common domestic creatures in Egypt. But that's not important right now.

3- You have shyly asked about female circumcision. Statistics say that 97% of the Egyptian women are circumcised. I am an Egyptian woman who studied Medicine and do not know of any woman in my family who was, but did see many circumcised women while I was practicing medicine in Egypt. Circumcision comes with certain social classes and you have every right to know whether your future wife is circumcised or not and in what way this might have affected her psychology.

Unforunately the same question applies to you! There is a misunderstanding that circumcision of males is an Islamic obligation, which is not. It is mandatory in Judaism and strongly recommended FOR MALES ONLY in Islam, but you won't go to hell if you kept some foreskin and kept it clean.

Once I was talking to a Dutch guy who was mortified by the idea of male circumcision. He called the practice barbaric and backwards. I said to him that it's done all around the world, not only in Islamic countries, either for medical or hygienic purposes, and I wondered what they do in Holland, and he said: "Oh we just shower!". Now his attitude of taking it so lightly might not be very well appreciated back in Egypt. You have to be ready for such a personal question from your partner, or even her dad, and I think they would appreciate a serious answer about your extra skin situation!

4- Be ready for racist behaviour in Egypt. Your wife will be insulted for marrying you. She will be called a prostitute and will be asked on which street corner of which resort you had picked her up. They will say oh she married a foreign because she was too old to marry an Egyptian, the poor thing! Yeah better than being alone for the rest of her life!

Maybe you will not be told this to your face, but you also need to know that some Egyptians would give you the best treatment and call you their "best friend" after having known you for 5 minutes, and once you turn your back they will stab you with the biggest virtual knife there is.

Egyptians have a long way to go before they learn to live and let live. Please beware of that.

5- Having been involved in giving you advice; you have the right to know about my background. But because this forum has some inferior souls and fetal alcohol syndrome victims, I would rather answer your further questions via PM.

Just want to add here that I'm married to the most wonderful foreign man who is truly God's gift to this world. I didn't realize/care that he was rich and did sign a prenuptial agreement based on Islamic law, which is very fair to him because he doesn't deserve to be ripped off half his money, like the Western law states, if God forbid a separation happens. I would get a decent alimony and a certain percentage from his income STARTING FROM THE DAY WE WERE MARRIED (since I sacrificed my career for the children), and exclusive anything he will inherit after God willing a very, very long time.

So CC, you can make it work, but you have to be ready for a lot of sacrifice and lots of homework PRIOR to getting involved. Speaking for myself, I left those who criticized my life choices to drown in their mental dysentery, while I'm having all the fun , BUT it's all based on a long and educated decision making process.

One more thing CC, would you be kind to pick another avatar since yours gives me an epileptic fit?! Thank you.

Posts: 8756 | From: Tax-Free Zone | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by hibbah:
great post MK!

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Originally posted by Ayisha:
Excellent MK!!! was waiting and hoping you would answer

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*taking a bow and throwing kisses*

Thank you ladies.

And thanks CC for the new avatar. Still causing some facial twitches but it's way better than the first.


All the best.

Posts: 8756 | From: Tax-Free Zone | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by cultureclash:

Her father is traditional and wants her to marry an Egyptian quickly i.e. before she is too old (as seen in that culture). He has however assented to her marrying me but there are a number of conditions.

I must convert to Islam and any children must be brought up in that way. I understand that this is an absolute requirement. I am willing to convert but it is unlikely that I can ever follow every tenet of the Islamic religion.

This is my most serious concern.

There are also several financial requirements including a dowry of £10k, an 'on divorce' settlement of £30k and a furnished flat in Egypt as insurance against divorce.

Thanks in advance.

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first, you welcome in egypt search
and i agree chimps for what she said .

about your issue , i dont think there are anything make you feeling worry about her father , because he was so frank with you .
he agreed the marriage proposal ,and that is wonderful, because you wont find many egyptian fathers do the same even with arab( non egyptians ) or even egyptians who are living far from them. and believe me even you were egyptian he would ask you for the same ( financial issue ).
one of my friends ( egyptian ) faced the same.
her father asked for a dowry of 10k, an 'on divorce' settlement of 30k and a furnished flat in her city as insurance against divorce, because he live in another city far from her family . so this normal for egyptian marriage .
and in the end she will be your wife and all the dowry will be jewelry she wear and the flat will be the place you and her will stay when you visit egypt.
about your converting to islam:
first you revert for good to yourself, you just need to try to learn more about islam . and you dont need follow every tenet of the Islamic religion , because even most of born muslims dont do that . so no worry while you trying , god will help you .
plus as i see , the girl dont looks that religious and her family too.

Posts: 137 | From: uk | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Graf_Genn:
Those are two different cases, in my opinion. One is being the typical father wanting the best for his daughter. The other is an insanely demanding and domineering religious type that those of us raised in the region are quite familiar with.
The latter type wishes to make you a "good muslim" and will never tire of telling you how "it is easier for one born into a different religion to enter heaven after converting (reverting) to Islam than it is for one born into Islam" and all the other tired propaganda. It doesn't do much to help a marriage.

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Posts: 137 | From: uk | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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her father asked for a dowry of 10k, an 'on divorce' settlement of 30k and a furnished flat in her city as insurance against divorce, because he live in another city far from her family . so this normal for egyptian marriage .
and in the end she will be your wife and all the dowry will be jewelry she wear and the flat will be the place you and her will stay when you visit egypt.

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Is this money expected in Egyptian or Sterling? I took it to be Sterling because cultureclash said he doesn't have it in the bank, and 50K Egyptian isn't that much to have in the bank or quickly save. If it is indeed Sterling, this is not a normal amount to ask for. 50K Sterling is more than a half-million Egyptian, plus the flat and furnishing according to this standard would probably be another half-million. Families these days have been asking outrageous conditions
Anyway, cultureclash has already stated that he cannot meet the financial demands of the father, and in my opinion the religious demands will be impossible to meet also since this type of family is generally impossible to deal with

Posts: 345 | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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AFTER HE BECOME A MUSLIM HE WILL BE THE SAME AS ANYONE PROPOSE TO MARRY HER .
AND AS I JUST TOLD BEFORE , IF THEY REALLY THAT RELIGIOUS , THEY WONT ASK FOR THAT AMOUNT OF DOWRY OR ON-DIVORCE SETTLEMENT 30K .

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Posts: 345 | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Graf_Genn:

quote:

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her father asked for a dowry of 10k, an 'on divorce' settlement of 30k and a furnished flat in her city as insurance against divorce, because he live in another city far from her family . so this normal for egyptian marriage .
and in the end she will be your wife and all the dowry will be jewelry she wear and the flat will be the place you and her will stay when you visit egypt.

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Is this money expected in Egyptian or Sterling? I took it to be Sterling because cultureclash said he doesn't have it in the bank, and 50K Egyptian isn't that much to have in the bank or quickly save. If it is indeed Sterling, this is not a normal amount to ask for. 50K Sterling is more than a half-million Egyptian, plus the flat and furnishing according to this standard would probably be another half-million. Families these days have been asking outrageous conditions
Anyway, cultureclash has already stated that he cannot meet the financial demands of the father, and in my opinion the religious demands will be impossible to meet also since this type of family is generally impossible to deal with

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Posts: 1967 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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There are also several financial requirements including a dowry of £10k, an 'on divorce' settlement of £30k and a furnished flat in Egypt as insurance against divorce.

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Posts: 345 | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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and 50K Egyptian isn't that much to have in the bank or quickly save.

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That's $8771.93. That's a lot for me.

Just curious, is the exchange rate still
$1.00 : 5.7 LE ?

Shukran

Posts: 2133 | From: Redneckland | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by cultureclash:
This is my first post on this forum so please forgive any accidental breaches of etiquette.

I am looking for a little advice on my current situation.

I am a British man in love with an Egyptian woman.

She is well educated, Muslim but quite liberal in some ways (i.e. no hijab), independent and older than usual for marriage in Egypt.

I am ostensibly Christian but agnostic i.e. non-religious, well educated with a good job living in England.

Her father is traditional and wants her to marry an Egyptian quickly i.e. before she is too old (as seen in that culture). He has however assented to her marrying me but there are a number of conditions.

I must convert to Islam and any children must be brought up in that way. I understand that this is an absolute requirement. I am willing to convert but it is unlikely that I can ever follow every tenet of the Islamic religion.

This is my most serious concern.

There are also several financial requirements including a dowry of £10k, an 'on divorce' settlement of £30k and a furnished flat in Egypt as insurance against divorce.

This is obviously quite a strange concept to someone in England. While I understand the reasons for the conditions, the financial requirements are quite impossible as my wealth is almost wholly invested in the house that I live in.

Provided a wedding in Egypt is lawful, my wife would have the rights and protection associated with marriage in England. This is considerable, often at least half of all marital assets which in this case is more than the requested financial settlement.

This is obviously something I will need to discuss with my prospective bride/her father but any advice would be gratefully received.

I am also concerned about certain traditional (but I understand non-Islamic) medical procedures that are common in almost all Egyptian girls.
Again, any advice would be appreciated.

I am doing my own research and will obviously discuss most of this with the people concerned, but a wider viewpoint is always appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

---

I would advise not to do it based merely on the conversion issue.
I am an american woman married to an egyptian man (converted to Islam before meeting my husband) and even that doesn't make things EASY per se, but it isn't necessarily impossible.
I do think asking that much in EGP is a lot, and doubt whether the father would ask that much from an Egyptian man (what does that tell you?). However, to be fair many egyptian men find they don't have to pay AS MUCH to foreign women mostly because it doesn't matter to us and/or we're financially independent, etc. so in all fairness, if you're willing, it's your business
With that being said, I think MK has made EXCELLENT points, especially with her perspective as an egyptian woman married to a foreign man. I would really listen to her a lot and think it's very noble of you for asking advice on these issues.
Remember, even if you aren't very religious now (or she), you might change as you age and you could really regret converting just to marry someone. You may not, but that is always a possibility.

The future children are the biggest concern and while I'm assuming you will be living in your native country, you might think about your future relationship with in-laws that clearly see you as a man with money (the bride as well).
but, we could all be totally wrong and they could be great people, they do exist in Egypt and you could trip on a family very warm and sincere like many of us have, I'm sure the girl is lovely and worth all of the homework you're doing. best of luck in your future either way you decide to proceed.

Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Graf_Genn:
So her father is asking about one million EGP, and she is letting him get away with asking that

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Holy God of the Sultan of Brunei and Bill Gates and Mohamed El-Fayed and Prince Talal and all the other Holy Saints.


CC, he either is after your money, or is making this marriage impossible in his own way.

DO NOT COMPLY with this blackmail, buddy!!

Posts: 8756 | From: Tax-Free Zone | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged |