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Interesting site. Question, why would people want an Orfi marriage, intead of one acknowledged by the state govt.? It seems as though the women are getting a raw deal. Explain. I don't mean to offend anyone by this question. This whole culture is still relatively new to me. Posts: 178 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2007
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I always wondered the same thing, but I guess there are some women who want to have fun without the mess of having to share the remote Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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I don't know, I just posted it because I was reading another topic area where there seemed to be some confusion about the legality of Orfi marriages. I got curious and looked it up. I agree, doesn't really support the woman very much unless she is not interested in being legally joined which may be the case with Western woman who have their own money. Just my guess!
Posts: 206 | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Sparkle16: I don't know, I just posted it because I was reading another topic area where there seemed to be some confusion about the legality of Orfi marriages. I got curious and looked it up. I agree, doesn't really support the woman very much unless she is not interested in being legally joined which may be the case with Western woman who have their own money. Just my guess!
I think you just got it in one. I was talking to a couple of British women in Luxor who have got court marriages (I think its one step up from an Orfi). They are perfectly happy with it. They get the advantages of being in a recognised marriage to the people that matter to them, but without risk to their British assets.
Posts: 5593 | From: Egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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Ok We have orfi because it meant we could be together and no hassle in town.We will do the real thing in time, but at the moment we're happy.Love each other very much. Sorry if this is against other peoples view. We@re are certainly not just out for a bit of fun.
Posts: 4476 | From: Scotland | Registered: Mar 2006
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For sure, one has to be careful in this day and age and time will certainly provide the comfort you need as you get to know each other. I don't think it is any different from dating in north america and living together and getting to know each other, even better because in north america, after 6 months assets can be owned jointy, in fact orfi is better protection to woman because their assets are safe. Doesn't really apply when one is is their 20's and has nothing to lose but when in your 40's and 50's and woman have money of their own, they have to be smart even when in love....
Posts: 206 | Registered: Mar 2007
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My boyfriend went away with my passport ang gave me it back with orfi marriage paper inside.It took 2 days for him to tell me exactly what it was!
Posts: 209 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by little surfer girl: Interesting site. Question, why would people want an Orfi marriage, intead of one acknowledged by the state govt.? It seems as though the women are getting a raw deal. Explain. I don't mean to offend anyone by this question. This whole culture is still relatively new to me.
Why exactly are women getting a raw deal? If an 'Orfi' marriage is needed to sleep with a man in Egypt, isn't that precisely why some women agree? Women don't always look purely for love, hearts and flowers. Sometimes, can they not be the ones looking for a short term solution too? If Egypt allowed men to 'sleep' with women without 'Orfi' in Egypt, would many bother to do it?
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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Thank you for being so honest with your personal experiences. It definately makes more sense. It is probably just me putting my own personal needs and wants on others. Do you know what I mean? (Duh, doesn't everyone want what I want?!?! ). When people used the term Orfi "marriage" I assumed that, that is what it was a marriage, not just a means of sleeping with someone. Clearly, I have alot to learn. I mean that.
Posts: 178 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2007
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The law in egypt is very strict and moral and the police will check on couples walking along the street, trying to check into hotels or having a drink. An Orfi paper means you can spend time alone, which outside of Egypt would normally be called dating.
However beware if that orfi gets registered then you are married in Egypt and need a divorce. If you keep hold of all the copies and your passport then it can not be registered.
If you want to have your marriage recognized outside of Egypt then go to your embassy website and read the instructions there.
Posts: 2791 | From: www.flatsinluxor.co.uk, Luxor, Egypt | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Sparkle16: For sure, one has to be careful in this day and age and time will certainly provide the comfort you need as you get to know each other. I don't think it is any different from dating in north america and living together and getting to know each other, even better because in north america, after 6 months assets can be owned jointy, in fact orfi is better protection to woman because their assets are safe. Doesn't really apply when one is is their 20's and has nothing to lose but when in your 40's and 50's and woman have money of their own, they have to be smart even when in love....
How can you love someone you don't trust?
And if he loves you, he'd want you for you and not your money.
I think its safer to be with a guy who has his own money and is equally or moreso in love with you than you with him.
Posts: 3168 | From: If you don't like it, don't look or read it! | Registered: Oct 2006
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Heh, Little Surfer Girl, I don't have any personal experience in terms of 'Orfi' marriage, only opinion. There is a lot of knowledge on this forum and many that will help you with any questions. Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by akshar: [QB] The law in egypt is very strict and moral and the police will check on couples walking along the street, trying to check into hotels or having a drink.
What?! I get the hotel thing, ok. So you have to get "married" to date someone, even if one of you is not an Egyptian citizen? Does this only apply to muslims?
Posts: 178 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2007
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It applies to Egyptians, LSG. Western couples can stay in hotels together without being married and not be questioned.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Sparkle16: For sure, one has to be careful in this day and age and time will certainly provide the comfort you need as you get to know each other. I don't think it is any different from dating in north america and living together and getting to know each other, even better because in north america, after 6 months assets can be owned jointy, in fact orfi is better protection to woman because their assets are safe. Doesn't really apply when one is is their 20's and has nothing to lose but when in your 40's and 50's and woman have money of their own, they have to be smart even when in love....
How can you love someone you don't trust?
And if he loves you, he'd want you for you and not your money.
I think its safer to be with a guy who has his own money and is equally or moreso in love with you than you with him.
Good point, I agree with this 100 percent!
Posts: 1121 | From: Too crazy to look at a freakin map to find out.. | Registered: Sep 2006
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Thanks SayWhatYouSee. It still kinda seems like just a way to sleep with someone without getting busted. Especially, if it is unfiled. Sorry.
Posts: 178 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2007
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What happens to the man when or if he stays with a woman in Egypt. How is it controlled? Do they have bed checks? Posts: 206 | Registered: Mar 2007
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"I think its safer to be with a guy who has his own money and is equally or moreso in love with you than you with him."
Heh, I am all for love but I think you need to think with your head and your heart!! Plus I thought we were talking about Egyptian men. Realistically, how many of them have money??
Posts: 206 | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Mme. Godiva: I think its safer to be with a guy who has his own money and is equally or moreso in love with you than you with him.
This is just a question in response to your statement. Why do people recommend to be with someone who loves you more than you love them? I mean wouldn't that just be like settling? I have had people say this to me, including my own grandmother! I just find the thought so depressing. Yes I realize the rationale behind it, but would you ever be truly happy? I would really like to hear some people's thoughts on this. Thanks!
Posts: 1879 | From: Going to Graceland | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Mme. Godiva: I think its safer to be with a guy who has his own money and is equally or moreso in love with you than you with him.
This is just a question in response to your statement. Why do people recommend to be with someone who loves you more than you love them? I mean wouldn't that just be like settling? I have had people say this to me, including my own grandmother! I just find the thought so depressing. Yes I realize the rationale behind it, but would you ever be truly happy? I would really like to hear some people's thoughts on this. Thanks!
Women love just to be in love and feel good.
For men, love is a curse. If men truly love its a tramuatic experience, crippling even.
Women don't fall as hard as men, but men play along with a female who wants to be in love because she will do anything for him.
Posts: 3168 | From: If you don't like it, don't look or read it! | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Sparkle16: What happens to the man when or if he stays with a woman in Egypt. How is it controlled? Do they have bed checks?
Well I'll tell you what happened to me.
We had just gotten married the day before and we went back to his flat the next day...we had been staying in a different flat at the time. Anyhoo......we weren't inside the flat more than 2 minutes when all of a sudden there was pounding on the door. I heard shouting in arabic for a good ten minutes and this 65ish year old woman in a robe with thick black khol under her eyes stormed in and demanded something in arabic to me. I just stared at her since I only know my salat and assalam alaykum.
My husband started yelling back and forth with her and she yelled but kept staring at me. Then his sisters came home and more yelling back and forth and then the next thing I know the lady is hugging me and saying mabrouk.
Apparently they thought I was just some hussie off the street and since we didn't have our marriage papers yet we had no proof other than our rings so the ENTIRE building was outside the hallway demanding that I leave and saying they'd call the police!! Once his sisters got home and vouched for him they finally believed us and started congratulating us.
So yeah, it's kind of enforced but I'm sure it depends on where you are too.
Posts: 1808 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Alchemist: This is just a question in response to your statement. Why do people recommend to be with someone who loves you more than you love them? I mean wouldn't that just be like settling? I have had people say this to me, including my own grandmother! I just find the thought so depressing. Yes I realize the rationale behind it, but would you ever be truly happy? I would really like to hear some people's thoughts on this. Thanks!
Point to ponder: Have you ever met a couple who loves each other exactly equally? I think women generally love *more,* so women often suffer more for a man who literally cares less for her. Might be why many give advice to marry someone who loves us *more.*
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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Plus I thought we were talking about Egyptian men. Realistically, how many of them have money?? [/QB]
HAHAHAHA!!!!! You are right - if they have $$ they will meet you in New York, not Yahoo, and take you to Paris for the weekend, not McDonald's for the EXPENSIVE fries!!!!!! HAHAHAHA!
Hey, I'm just kidding around....
Posts: 1161 | From: wo xiang xiao bian ji si le | Registered: Oct 2005
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First of all it’s everybody’s own business how they choose to marry. If one is happy with his/her Orfi marriage, that’s is fine However, if my guy would have suggested Orfi I would have kicked his ass and moved on. Because to so many –if not all- Egyptians that is such a shameful marriage, often kept in secret. Do you think an Egyptian couple would marry with Orfi?
And you cannot add any extra conditions into Orfi. By marrying "legally" (well, that because Orfi is legal too) in Ministry of Justice you can do that.
Also regarding assets of a foreign woman, if you want to protect your assets you can do sort of a prenuptial agreement. I don’t know yet what it is called in Egypt. I got that information from our embassy that making this kind of a contract/agreement is recommended. I also don’t know whether that is a separate contract or can you add it as one of the conditions into a contract (discussions with our lawyer are still going on). I think that whether one has wealth at the moment or not she should have this prenuptial agreement, you never know what happens (inheritance etc.)
Also I’ve read Egyptian women can have Ayma (or Qayma), a list of her "stuff" she can keep in case of divorce. I don’t know if this consists only things like furniture or can they include more expensive stuff into it too, like a house or similar.
I’m often amazed how little people read or study things regarding the marriage contract and laws (not to talk about the culture) involving it before they get married. Then as a result you hear too many bad stories. Yes love should be number one, but unfortunately we all see the divorce rates all over the world, especially in intercultural relationships. In my country too many people take for example prenuptial agreements so personally and refuse to take it – but years later they maybe wish they would have signed it. When a couple is in the middle of divorce it can pretty soon turn ugly.
I want to learn everything and think in all peace and quiet what I want to add to the contract and I’ve been given all the time and understanding to do that There is a useful book, The Marriage Contract in Islamic Law: In the Shari'ah and Personal Status Laws of Egypt and Morocco (CQ Press, U.S.)
Posts: 758 | From: Finland | Registered: Jun 2006
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I think also its all very well to say that in an ideal world he should do this, have this and be that...but the world is not ideal and emotions arent logical. I would marry someone if he had nothing. I have built myself up from nothing and could do it again. There is a difference between someone who has nothing and who never intends to (or is able to) do anything with his life, to someone who for reasons hasnt accumilated wealth, maybe he had it and lost it? I can see why some want security, but you marry the man not his wallet, and while i appreciate that wealth makes life easier, its hard enough in this world to find a truely wonderful person, if you do find one you should grab him/her with both hands in my opinion, and then make your security together.
Posts: 1017 | From: uk | Registered: Mar 2006
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So much intelligence on this website and all with valid points but being a practical woman I still say I can love with my head and my heart. I agree "educating oneself can save alot of heart ache". It is not so much "looking for security" as I am already financially secure myself but rather looking at how to protect myself when dealing with legal issues in another culture and language and I guess I am not so romantic as to think that one can "live on love". I like my financial independence and plan on keeping it.
Thanks for the "info" Cloudberry. I was aware that one could add stipulations to the contract but the book should round out my education.
Doodlebug - WOW, I guess they do do "bed checks". Posts: 206 | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Sparkle16: What happens to the man when or if he stays with a woman in Egypt. How is it controlled? Do they have bed checks?
Well I'll tell you what happened to me.
We had just gotten married the day before and we went back to his flat the next day...we had been staying in a different flat at the time. Anyhoo......we weren't inside the flat more than 2 minutes when all of a sudden there was pounding on the door. I heard shouting in arabic for a good ten minutes and this 65ish year old woman in a robe with thick black khol under her eyes stormed in and demanded something in arabic to me. I just stared at her since I only know my salat and assalam alaykum.
My husband started yelling back and forth with her and she yelled but kept staring at me. Then his sisters came home and more yelling back and forth and then the next thing I know the lady is hugging me and saying mabrouk.
Apparently they thought I was just some hussie off the street and since we didn't have our marriage papers yet we had no proof other than our rings so the ENTIRE building was outside the hallway demanding that I leave and saying they'd call the police!! Once his sisters got home and vouched for him they finally believed us and started congratulating us.
So yeah, it's kind of enforced but I'm sure it depends on where you are too.
that was terrible and to assume you was a hussy didnt they know of you in the first place or ssen pics and was this i met you on monday and now im your wife on thursday just a thought ,, and dod have a ahbit of picking up girls they way the mum thought you was a hussy ,i would not have stayed i would have just fckd off im got more pride than that .... dont add up ...why the 65ish not aware of you ....
you see it beat ms they amrry and dont tell the family WHY ????
Posts: 4597 | Registered: Jun 2006
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A marriage should be publicly declared to be considered valid by Islam and this is true of practically all. So unless you had the motorcade leading to your apartment none knows you are married and suspects you aren't.
It is not a big deal after all, why jump into bed with someone (unless you are Josey) until you are sure. so until then keep publicly and privately pure
Posts: 2791 | From: www.flatsinluxor.co.uk, Luxor, Egypt | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:Originally posted by caterpillar: I think also its all very well to say that in an ideal world he should do this, have this and be that...but the world is not ideal and emotions arent logical. I would marry someone if he had nothing. I have built myself up from nothing and could do it again. There is a difference between someone who has nothing and who never intends to (or is able to) do anything with his life, to someone who for reasons hasnt accumilated wealth, maybe he had it and lost it? I can see why some want security, but you marry the man not his wallet, and while i appreciate that wealth makes life easier, its hard enough in this world to find a truely wonderful person, if you do find one you should grab him/her with both hands in my opinion, and then make your security together.
quote:Originally posted by little surfer girl: What?! I get the hotel thing, ok. So you have to get "married" to date someone, even if one of you is not an Egyptian citizen? Does this only apply to muslims?
No hotel recognizes orfi papers as a marriage. Otherwise, most would be turned into even bigger whorehouses than they already are during the summer invasion of gulf visitors. it's only individuals who rent out flats. and it's only some of them.
I don't know anyone who ever got married orfi to date in Cairo. And I heard of only one couple who were married orfi, but both were egyptian, and it was in secret. But I think they were officially engaged.
Posts: 2182 | Registered: Oct 2002
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If they let unmarried couples share hotel rooms and flats then there would be no need for orfi. I don't class this as negative.
Posts: 209 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2007
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Trouble is how else to you get to know somebody and spend time with them in egypt without any hassle? This takes time!
Posts: 142 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2006
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Ok, is it safe to say that cohabitation without marriage is frowned upon in Egypt?
That being so, you would need to change the mindset of almost the entire country before "sleeping together" would be something recognized as ok and normal.
That is why I don't understand why Orfi was ever allowed in the first place and why it isn't banned.
This is Egypt, an Islamic State; not Europe, not the States, not the Far East.
As far as getting to know someone, some think you have to sleep with that person to know them fully. Personally, I don't, and I think there are many others who would agree with me.
Just my opinion
Just wanted to add another thought.
Are there any statistics that prove that a marriage where the partners were intimate before marriage, are more successful (or have a lesser divorce rate) than those where they abstained till after marriage?
Posts: 3291 | From: I DO believe in Karma! | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Laura: Ok, is it safe to say that cohabitation without marriage is frowned upon in Egypt?
That being so, you would need to change the mindset of almost the entire country before "sleeping together" would be something recognized as ok and normal.
That is why I don't understand why Orfi was ever allowed in the first place and why it isn't banned.
This is Egypt, an Islamic State; not Europe, not the States, not the Far East.
As I understand it an ORFI marriage is compliant with Sharia law so that is why it is allowed in Egypt. Sad though that so many Muslims abuse this and use OFRI in a way it was never intended to be used.
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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Although urfi marriages are sanctioned by Islam, Egypt’s majority religion, conducting them in secret – without the consent of couples’ families – is not.
Urfi marriages, commonly defined as marital unions lacking an official contract, are often carried out in secret. For the most part, those who choose to be married by way of an urfi contract are young couples who do not have parental consent or who cannot afford a wedding. “In reality, most of those who resort to urfi marriages are young couples seeking to legitimise a sexual relationship,” “Many cannot afford a wedding, while many others don’t have the consent of their parents. To them, urfi marriages provide an alternative
Posts: 4597 | Registered: Jun 2006
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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). When people used the term Orfi "marriage" I assumed that, that is what it was a marriage, not just a means of sleeping with someone. Clearly, I have alot to learn. I mean that.
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