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I agree to an extent but not everyone follows the same rules, even socially (or religiously). If they did this topic wouldn't even exist. Yes, in this culture men and women are expected to stay virgins but they all don't and some are Muslims. fact. And it isn't always because of a foreigner. fact.
Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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But this happens, Caterpillar, it isn`t that I once saw it, I know numbers of man who are living in total disregarding for what Islam is in real. At the same time they judge the same women they are using, as being not decent. Some have a decent wife at home, some have not. But they all "take what`s available" for them. They even try to justify their immoral behaviour by saying: she is asking for it, she is a bad woman, she is not dressed decent, she is a slot. It is just a bunch of hypocrits! The famous double standards and double facedness of Egyptian man. Of course they are not all the same. Of course there are good, reliable man who still respect a woman whatever she wears.The problem is that this bad group is standing in front. They are the ones, ready to grab what is coming around. And so, this are the ones who can be a subject on ES...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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true, bacause at the end of the day people will be people and make their own rules, and I dont think that TKS has 'led him astray'... there are enough men out there who are quite happy to have sex before marriage. But the religious 'rules' are more prevalent in egyptian society than in the west, there's no escaping that...whether someone choses to accept or ignore them is up to them, but it is still defined as a islamic country.
Posts: 1017 | From: uk | Registered: Mar 2006
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Want to add something, also in Western communities, there are numbers of people not living by their religious rules. So, it has nothing to do with religion, it has to do with the mentality of the person! Think about your own society, which levels are living with high morals and personal values, and which aren`t? In common!
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by caterpillar: true, bacause at the end of the day people will be people and make their own rules, and I dont think that TKS has 'led him astray'... there are enough men out there who are quite happy to have sex before marriage. But the religious 'rules' are more prevalent in egyptian society than in the west, there's no escaping that...whether someone choses to accept or ignore them is up to them, but it is still defined as a islamic country.
Sorry i must disagree with you there. You should live here and see for yourself, it's fake. We're made to believe that CAT and I believed it before living here but in truth, no. It's simply that everyone knows MORE of what you're doing here, it's the social humiliation factor that keeps most in line, that's why when so many of them leave their countries they go WILD. In the West it's much more out in the open so it makes it seem that way, but there is much more honesty in a persons' actions in the West than there is here. In conclusion, men are men and women are women. Some good, some bad and the factor that determines this is upbringing. It doesn't change much from one culture to the next, if the parents did a good job, it shows. IMO
Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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?????, absolutely, i dont deny that there are men out there like that, even in the west men have the same double standard that is still deemed socially acceptable. Men label women in the west in just the same way, because of how she looks, she will be judged accordingly and fall into 'good for sex' box or 'good for wife' box, trouble is most of them dont want a wife so most women are dumped in the 'sex' box, its just more socially acceptable here to get away with doing that. Much to my disgust. In other countries, such as Egypt, they assume that because that is acceptable here, then women must be happy with that, or indeeed WANT that, and so it becomes socially acceptable for them to treat western women in a way they would be LESS likely to treat an egyptian woman.
I am frustrated everytime i hear someone say how disgusting western women dress, and they must do it for attention...blar blar.. This is what men believe (eastern and western) what they dont understand that women dress in this way because it has become the 'norm', the 'norm' is to display your sexuality, dress sexy, etc, then you are considered 'hot' or 'sexy' or whatever. To the woman she looks nice, to the man she's dressing for sex... and here is where religion (christian or islam) can protect women.
If either man or woman push aside religion then this is what you are left with...I dont think western women give it much thought before they go to a country like this, I dont even think that most western women (or for arguements sake...UK) give religion much thought, because in our culture alot of us grew up with religion as not part of our life.
We are encouraged to think that we are ok to dress how we like, do what we like with regard to sexual behaviour in some quest for equality. It will never happen and all that happens is women end up in catch twenty two situations wherever they go... why do you think so many women are crying out for love, affection and committment?
So IMO, a women will be treated better if she does follow religious cultural norms when visiting Egypt, so that she is not disrespected and does not disrespect herself (according to others beliefs) without even being aware of it.
Posts: 1017 | From: uk | Registered: Mar 2006
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Smuckers...Well, I cant speak for Egypt or anywhere else i haven't lived, I know the world is not an ideal place and people are people at the end of the day. I agree with you about upbringing but have to say that this too is heavily influenced by the culture surrounding you, and your parents/carers. So there is no escaping the impact on culture on our behaviour.
I disagree that It is more open in the west, Many women are strung along in the hope that they might actually mean something to the bloke, a western man, until he gets bored and moves on...that is why women have so many problems here, imo.
most men wont say...'well, actually i'm just looking for sex, fancy some? but if you get pregnant then i'll want you to get rid of it...ok? shall we go?' nope, they will say 'of course i love you, i'm not looking for anything serious but who knows in the future, its ok, i'l still respect you in the morning, you are on the pill arent you'...they might even say 'lets plan a life together, get married, have kids...blar blar' but when their mates ask them they would say 'am i ****!' i could go on but i wont. And I'm not just talking about English men
Posts: 1017 | From: uk | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by caterpillar: ?????, absolutely, i dont deny that there are men out there like that, even in the west men have the same double standard that is still deemed socially acceptable. Men label women in the west in just the same way, because of how she looks, she will be judged accordingly and fall into 'good for sex' box or 'good for wife' box, trouble is most of them dont want a wife so most women are dumped in the 'sex' box, its just more socially acceptable here to get away with doing that. Much to my disgust.
Boy you got that right, now I am reminded of THAT freak show. Something I do not miss~
Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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Well, I`m currently not in this circuits because I am married for a very long time. But professionaly I am working with mostly people in this period of life.Also I`m not living in the UK, so maybe that will make the difference, I don`t have the impression that it is a common rule, that two boxes system. Of course there are young man like this, and certainly they can be like this during a period of life, but I don`t see it that black/white as you say. IMO it has to do with what their parents did teach them. Morals, personal values, principles, are all part of how they have been raised up, by the parents, by their social level, friends, people around. I can recognize my social behaviour in my children, not in the same way, but in common. The same is happening in Egypt...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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I think Cosmo girl is right-freedom is good to experience, and if the kids have been brought up properly, they will have sense and good judgment to be able to act responsibly, and within boundaries. There is no saying some boys choose to be more devout in their faith, but imho this should be a choice, not forced upon them, which can lead to disrespect and confusion later. EG guys are opportunists -they have to be to survive. When I ask my EG friend why he behaves the way he does, he tells me it is bacause for evey ten (western girls) that say no, one will say yes...I have other friends who would not dream of being that way, as they have chosen their faith as their partner until such a time as they meet a wife, and abhore the behaviour of those who act 'inappropriately'. With westerners, it is hard sometimes for the EG's to interpret things the way we do. They have little exposure to a mix of western girls-most they see on TV (and their own muslim girls trying to emulate) are glamourous, jewellery and makeup clad flirtatious girls,akin to those on american soap operas in the 80's, and the others they see are bikini clad holidaymakers laying on a beach trying to get a tan. they don't exactly see many 'Sonia's from Eastenders!!! It is hard for them to know what we like, and how to talk to us, so mistakes can sometimes happen. The main thing is to remember is that most egyptians just want to make you happy and welcome, not necessarily jump into bed with you. Its a survival of the fittest though, and if the opportunity is there to make a new life with a westerner, there will always be a small number pursuing that (for the passport) and (perhaps) a better life. They are happy to learn how to love, as they would if they were married in Egypt, under duress. I was recently o the beach, and another customer (female, with a child) was sunbathing topless on the beach. The staff were not looking,as they felt very embarrassed, and the waiter even asked her to cover up, as it was a muslim country. She refused. For the record, this was the second time I have seen this as (no offence intended) both times the women were Russian. When visitors refuse to respect the Country's laws, this is when people begin to change the way they treat people. I would also like to add that I heard a few years ago that there had been an AIDS problem in the red sea area, linked to staff. They were 'removed from town' and taken to a 'hospital' in Cairo.
Posts: 22 | From: uk/sharm | Registered: Jul 2006
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????? I have to say I think you're really right. It is about what the parents teach them, the further West you go or the further East. Which is why you have the same problems (some more prevalent in the West than here) all over, it's just the packaging of the problems that changes.
Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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I also think that Carmen is getting alot of mileage standing on the "religious rules" of ALL OF EGYPT. REALLY? If those are the RULES, then why aren't they being followed to the letter? If you truly don't understand that behind every fallen angel and zealot is a PERSON then you've missed a HUGE point of being alive.
If my daughter went to Egypt and had a flign with a boatboy, a. she wouldn't practice unprotected sex, and B. she wouldn't be full of regret. She will be informed enough to make decisions as an adult, she won't be a proiscuous 12 year old, she will be a young woman by the time she is travelling. Certainly I had lovers before I married Himself, are you implying that I am not morally just? Are you implying that Allah or God loves my husband and I LESS because we enjoyed the touch and caress of another person before we were hitched? Are you DAFT?
There was another poster online for a while and she LOOOOVED to stand on her interpretation of what "pious community" such as ALL OF EGYPT should be holding its young men to. I say BAH. Nobody starts out on equal footing and the rules apply economically to each group as they come upon them. Our children will have the advantages of financial security, education, and open minded and loving parents who love themselves, love god, and love the KIDS.
When I find you in the bathroom scrubbing my toilet, and cleanig the floors, then you can suggest to me how our behavior impacts the world, but until then, I suggest you make sure your life is in the strainht line you insist that AN ENTIRE POPULATION adhere to, and formally kiss my *ass.
Los Angles is a long way from Hurghada to be putting a stencil down and insisting that you KNOW that people have to stay inside the lines of.
You respect a countries laws when you don't kill people, rob them, or commit crimes.
Personal interaction while distateful to some (obviously) doesn't really count. Aren't there bigger issues in Egypt.. perhaps the summit in Sharm right now that you should be focusing your inaccurate laser on?
Posts: 1071 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Am I imagining things or is this a bit like the ES of the old days.... with points well made and discussed despite what your viewpoint is.... without having to have the whole thread degenerated by the same old individuals. There is hope for this board yet
Wish I wasn't so busy today.
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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I have read what you have been writing today and it is a lot of interessting things coming up! I have contact with a man in egypt and i realy understand the problems that exist between us. I see things from my view and what i have learned and been thru. But then suddenly he says things to me that make me realy be thinking is this the right way to be. In my country a lot of people just been in a wery hurry all the time and works and works a lot so that they been able to buy more and more things. I was home after an operation and the doctor order me to rest for a while, after a few days i got real crazy staying in bed- I talked with my egyptian friend and he started to laugh. I have never heard someone being crazy when they need a rest i should be happy if i was you!You are always running round doing things when i speak to you! I dont understand your way to be! It was only one of the things in our conversation that makes me stop and think over my life. I realy learn a lot of myself thru him all the time. I realy enjoy this given and taken between people from other cultures.
Posts: 5 | From: sweden | Registered: May 2007
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This is the first time i've been on today and i have read this thread from start to finish. Very thought provoking and no bitching.This is definately what we need to see more of. It is not always easy to understand initially the views of a different culture. We must respect that these may be different from our own but neither is right or wrong.
Posts: 209 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Penny: Am I imagining things or is this a bit like the ES of the old days.... with points well made and discussed despite what your viewpoint is.... without having to have the whole thread degenerated by the same old individuals. There is hope for this board yet
Wish I wasn't so busy today.
Well weren't you the one who said couldn't imagine ES without sono? Well if she was here the thread would've gone all to hell in two posts!
Posts: 63 | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Penny: Am I imagining things or is this a bit like the ES of the old days.... with points well made and discussed despite what your viewpoint is.... without having to have the whole thread degenerated by the same old individuals. There is hope for this board yet
Wish I wasn't so busy today.
Well weren't you the one who said couldn't imagine ES without sono? Well if she was here the thread would've gone all to hell in two posts!
Please credit me with a little more intelligence, I like many long time members have endured, humoured, sympathised, and then given up posting because of this member. No, such a thought would not cross my mind.
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Penny: Am I imagining things or is this a bit like the ES of the old days.... with points well made and discussed despite what your viewpoint is.... without having to have the whole thread degenerated by the same old individuals. There is hope for this board yet
Wish I wasn't so busy today.
Well weren't you the one who said couldn't imagine ES without sono? Well if she was here the thread would've gone all to hell in two posts!
Please credit me with a little more intelligence, I like many long time members have endured, humoured, sympathised, and then given up posting because of this member. No, such a thought would not cross my mind.
quote:Originally posted by Penny: Am I imagining things or is this a bit like the ES of the old days.... with points well made and discussed despite what your viewpoint is.... without having to have the whole thread degenerated by the same old individuals. There is hope for this board yet
Wish I wasn't so busy today.
Well weren't you the one who said couldn't imagine ES without sono? Well if she was here the thread would've gone all to hell in two posts!
Please credit me with a little more intelligence, I like many long time members have endured, humoured, sympathised, and then given up posting because of this member. No, such a thought would not cross my mind.
Are you saying you never made that statement? Cause I'm sure sono has a copy of that thread somewhere in her files. I recall you made that statement and I replied to it in disgust, hard to forget something like that!
Posts: 63 | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Penny: Am I imagining things or is this a bit like the ES of the old days.... with points well made and discussed despite what your viewpoint is.... without having to have the whole thread degenerated by the same old individuals. There is hope for this board yet
Wish I wasn't so busy today.
Well weren't you the one who said couldn't imagine ES without sono? Well if she was here the thread would've gone all to hell in two posts!
Please credit me with a little more intelligence, I like many long time members have endured, humoured, sympathised, and then given up posting because of this member. No, such a thought would not cross my mind.
Cause I'm sure sono has a copy of that thread somewhere in her files.
Don't remind me of that freak show. Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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I am new to this board but just wanted to add in the mix that I recently visited Egypt for the second time. Both times I have completely respected Egyptian values and dressed appropriately. I was always covered, I never showed my shoulders, cleavage or legs, I did not wear a scarf as I am not Muslim and did not think that was appropriate, however at all times even when dressed for dinner I was respectful to the culture. I do dress differently here in Australia.
Although I was dressed in this way I was still completely disrespected on numerous occassions from a number of Egyptian Men who thought it was okay to grab me and touch me inappropriately. Of course there were also very respectful men.
I only use this as an example to say not all Western people have total disregard for a country's customs, a lot of blame in this thread has been put on the western women and I am using this to highlight that there are two sides to every story.
I had numerous Egyptian Men trying to get close to me with a large proportion of these being married which I thought was taboo in Egypt?? On both my visits this has happened.
Not that this is too much of a negative for me, you get used it and learn how to tell those nasty ones to politely get lost, I still love the country and can't wait to visit again.
Posts: 5 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by AusGirl: I had numerous Egyptian Men trying to get close to me with a large proportion of these being married which I thought was taboo in Egypt?? On both my visits this has happened.
Not that this is too much of a negative for me, you get used it and learn how to tell those nasty ones to politely get lost...
The latter part is taboo in any culture, but it happens..although their methods may vary slightly, men are men everywhere !
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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I agree with Newcomer, I have only been inappropriately touched once in Egypt since living here (since November of 2005), but I'm also *usually* with my husband when we go out and he pretty much watches me like a hawk when we pass a group of guys or are in a crowded area (sweetheart that he is). When I was touched inappropriately it was by some kid who looked to be 17 years old or so passing me on a bike who reached his hand out to get a feel of my rear end as he passed by me (he came from behind so I never saw it coming). I was shocked, of course, but this can happen anywhere sadly.
Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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Aus Girl the same sort of men will do it to Egyptian women as well as Western no matter how respectfully dressed. They are just low life and best ignored. If the disrespect gets physical in any way then do not tolerate it. I have only been touched once by a young man on one of the bridges over the Nile in Cairo and I am sure he will never do it again for the rest of his life he found my 1/4 irish side...not a good thing to do!
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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About this merriage thing how do you get merried in egypt? What is the precidier when you are from another country? A man told med that you can sign something they call a contractor at a lawyer. You use it so that you can travel around with a man in egypt or live with him without beeing real merried. You have to have vittnes to sign it. It is like a merriagecontract but not he told me.You show it for the police if you are stopped somewhere. or if you should rent a apartment. It was just to cut the paper into pieces or burn it up when you have used it and then the merriage did not exist any longer. Can this be true? It sounds strange to me. Is there someone who knows? he told me that many people do this things.
Posts: 5 | From: sweden | Registered: May 2007
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Well Penny I did have to tell a few off actually while I was there, particularly in the markets some were just crude. I think it was worse as I was travelling by myself, on a tour though but without the male walking next to me. My husband refuses to go to Egypt.
I didn't like that they would grab me and hold me and not let go, in Esna the Tourist Police had to come so I could get out of the markets without being harrassed, I wasn't completely by myself I was with two other couples.
I tried not to even give the slightest bit of encouragement but all it seemed to take was a glance in their direction!!
However the respectful men were wonderful and I can totally understand the attraction to Egyptian Men, I have never been spoken to in that way by Australian Men. The Egyptians could sure teach them a thing or two about how to treat a woman Posts: 5 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: May 2007
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Ausgirl if you go back to Egypt again the best thing to do is ask a local to accompany you, especially in the markets. Make it clear you will pay for their time and all you want is their protection. On my first visit to Egypt with my sister we always did this, it was usually just a young local lad, we enjoyed the company and local insight and avoided the hassle you describe. I will also add there was never any confusion as to our intentions even though this was the Luxor/Aswan area.
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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If someone grabs you yell LA very loudly. and if they grope you I have been told to yell LA whip off my shoe and beat him upside the head with it. Since I received that information I haven't had any need to use it because most of the people i have met have been wonderful. I've only had one problem with a shopkeeper in an electronics shop who touched my butt and grabbed my arm. I yelled loud enough to scare him and made my way out. Several other shopkeepers from the street nearby seemed very interested to find out what had happened and my Egyptian friends tell me that he would have been in big trouble if he hadn't let me go. I've been lucky though, because most Egyptian men have been nice. I've even had more than one who saw me stuck trying to cross the street or in the middle of it and walked through the crazy traffic to get me to the other side for no reason other than because I looked like I needed help.
Posts: 153 | From: Egypt | Registered: May 2006
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A well-aimed good hard slap is also very useful...... did it twice when I lived in Hurghada!!!
Posts: 4238 | From: USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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I personally don't like Egyptian 'men' but I do have a fondness for my Egyptian 'man', my husband. All the others could catch on fire I wouldn't care. Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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