I had an Orfi contract with an Egyptian man in Hurghada and we split up. We had three copies of this contract. I destroyed my copy but he still has his and also the lawyer who made it still has a copy too. Without giving any details, I had to run away from this guy because of an abusive situation. I will never go back to Hurghada because I have to stay away from him but I really want to go back to live in Cairo. But I was wondering is there anything he can do with these contracts? Do you know what I mean? For example: can he stop me from marrying someone else? Can he turn the contracts into legal marriage without my consent? Is there anything else he can do to affect my future in this country?
Posts: 14 | From: Hurghada, Egypt | Registered: Aug 2009
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I do not know if it will affect your future, usually the guy is the one breaking the contract and are happy to rip it up. I am sure other folk will no more about Orfi than me. I hope it doesn't though!
As for getting it legalised, no. You would have to be present.
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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The answers to all your questions is yes. He can stop you from marrying someone else in Egypt at least, not in your home country. He could have you thrown in jail if you married another and he found out about it.
I am afraid cheekyferret is wrong about not being able to get it legalized without you. He could in fact do this if he knows a judge in the courts system or bribes one. When the orfi is legalized in the court all the judge is doing is verifying that you are the one who signed it and recording your passport information. Then it is given a stamp to make it a full legal marriage in Egypt, however it would not be in your home country unless it is registered with your embassy. This registering without the orfi wife knowledge can and has happened to women.
Yes, there are many things he can do to harm your future should you choose to remain in the country. Prevent you from marrying another, put you in jail if you do, cause problems for you with visas and working and such. Possibly there might even be an issue with you "abandoning" him. A lot depends on how much influence he has or who he knows.
I would personally suggest leaving if you are able and reevaluating your desire to live in Egypt.
Posts: 44 | Registered: Nov 2009
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Ok but we were living in Hurghada and when I left him I came back to my own country. Now I want to move back but to Cairo instead. Is there actually a way he could find me if I moved back to Cairo? How would he know I was there?
I have to get a new passport this week... does that mean the passport number will be different and therefore the contract no longer legally binding because the details will change? Or I could change my name for the same result?
Posts: 14 | From: Hurghada, Egypt | Registered: Aug 2009
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So I was in fact right as it would be illegal to do it without here and in fact technically it would not be legalised but forged which as we all know is illegal.
Yes, he could do it but no, it would not be legal and you could very easily prove this with your passport proving you were not in the country the day he tried to legalise it illegally. If you know what I mean.
I doubt he could find you here, it is a big place and unless you leak it on FB or here only a few of us will know your whereabouts and no-one would jeopardise him finding out.
Hell, I know where folk actually live in Cairo and it still takes me hrs to find them
You could actually change your name Perhaps adopt a muslim one so it blends in with a million others.
Do you actually feel he would do these things, or is he just angry right now that you left? Do you think he will try to hurt you or your jeopardise your life here?
Did you read that link I sent, he is a very wise man on foreigners marrying here. He would give you ways and means to prevent him doing anything to you.
Good luck. x
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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On another quick note, you could actually hire a Lawyer and voice to her your concerns so if he does ever do anything you will have some defence and history that you were threatened.
I do advise you keep a diary of events also proving the days you left etc (copy your passport exit stamps) just in case you ever need them in self defense if he does try to 'legalise' the papers in your absence. People cannot argue with the truth no matter how hight the bribe when factual evidence is presented to them Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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Dear, live your life normally, he cant do anything to you, even if you went back to Hurghada, if he assaulted you again, you can report him to the police.Good that you didn't legalize the orfi paper, your situation would have been different now. good luck.
Posts: 37 | Registered: Nov 2009
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If you come back to Egypt you should only come to Cairo anyway. The opportunities are better. And I agree with CF, it's hard enough to find people in Cairo even when you know where they are. Unless he had family or friends in Cairo (which I doubt) you won't ever have to worry about him finding you.
Posts: 1626 | From: whatever, wherever | Registered: Jul 2008
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Thanks so much everyone, I feel a bit better now. Ferret thanks for the link, I did check it out and posted there as well. And copying my passport stamps is a really good idea. Also the lawyer... you gave me some good advice! Posts: 14 | From: Hurghada, Egypt | Registered: Aug 2009
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You are welcome and WHEN you come back to Cairo be sure to look me up and we can go and party.
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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Please OP don't read anything from that link. To contact a lawyer is a good idea.
Just as a thought:
Doesn't the (foreign) woman has any rights in regards to the Orfi agreement? Can't she request to end the Orfi marriage through a lawyer?? There should be legal ways to explore to find a satisfying solution for the OP. She should not be forced to have to hide in Egypt and even can't remarry there because of her previous Orfi marriage.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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Why don't you contact the lawyer who made the contract. You have nothing to lose and nothing to fear by doing so. Tell him you want to end the contract. He may be able to help.
I wouldn't worry too much about anything even if you come back to Egypt. Just document everything on your end.
Posts: 1626 | From: whatever, wherever | Registered: Jul 2008
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Please OP don't read anything from that link. To contact a lawyer is a good idea.
Just as a thought:
Doesn't the (foreign) woman has any rights in regards to the Orfi agreement? Can't she request to end the Orfi marriage through a lawyer?? There should be legal ways to explore to find a satisfying solution for the OP. She should not be forced to have to hide in Egypt and even can't remarry there because of her previous Orfi marriage.
He also knows a damn site more about legalities and procedures than you do so even though he may be against Egyptian men he also SUPPORTS WESTERNERS...
Do you really want the OP to not receive the best advice open to her from a guy reknown for actively supporting Western women from violent men and any illegalities they wish to carry out.
You really are pointless
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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Tiger the orfi paper is nothing to worry about. legalizing it which is important to have the rights for both parts, here in this case its not legalized, so its just a paper with no rights. About remarrying again, it will be a problem if you are a real Muslim. But if you converted just because the marriage issue, there is nothing to worry about.
Posts: 37 | Registered: Nov 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: So I was in fact right as it would be illegal to do it without here and in fact technically it would not be legalised but forged which as we all know is illegal.
Yes, he could do it but no, it would not be legal and you could very easily prove this with your passport proving you were not in the country the day he tried to legalise it illegally. If you know what I mean.
Yes if he did it when she was out of the country, if he already did it then she would be sh*t out of luck. Because there would be two witnesses swearing it was her and the burden of proving it wrong would lie completely with her. And let us say that no Egyptian police officer would be so quick to want to help her. Their general attitude is very apathetic. Until the time she could get it proved illegal and get a paper declaring it null and void, she would have to carry on like she was married to him. As in not being able to marry another. Everything is not so cut and dry in Egypt, and most times just when you think you have an issue taken care of, some little stupid detail you forgot like a stamp or one word missing, or a chant and a sprinkle of pixie dust, and you are back to square one.
We are of course assuming the worst case scenario in this situation, original poster. The best thing for you to do would of course speak to a lawyer but please make sure it is a reputable one.
Posts: 44 | Registered: Nov 2009
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By the way... I'm not a Muslim!! (People seem to be thinking I converted or something?)
But yeah contacting a lawyer and trying to work things out is a great idea. And don't worry, I left the country the same day I left him, so if on the offchance he did make it legal I would not have been there. Thanks guys.
Posts: 14 | From: Hurghada, Egypt | Registered: Aug 2009
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Yes if he did it when she was out of the country, if he already did it then she would be sh*t out of luck. Because there would be two witnesses swearing it was her and the burden of proving it wrong would lie completely with her. A
Erm wouldn't she be able to prove she was out of the country when he did this (hypothetically )cos she wouldn't have a visa stamp with the date in her passport when he said she was supposed to be there ?
Posts: 3945 | From: ' Res Contr ' Amor non es guirens, lai on sos poders s'atura | Registered: Dec 2007
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Please OP don't read anything from that link. To contact a lawyer is a good idea.
Just as a thought:
Doesn't the (foreign) woman has any rights in regards to the Orfi agreement? Can't she request to end the Orfi marriage through a lawyer?? There should be legal ways to explore to find a satisfying solution for the OP. She should not be forced to have to hide in Egypt and even can't remarry there because of her previous Orfi marriage.
He also knows a damn site more about legalities and procedures than you do so even though he may be against Egyptian men he also SUPPORTS WESTERNERS...
Do you really want the OP to not receive the best advice open to her from a guy reknown for actively supporting Western women from violent men and any illegalities they wish to carry out.
You really are pointless
Daniel Pipes "Advice to non-Muslim women against marrying Muslim men"
alone should be already a good reason what to think about him and his relations towards the Muslim world but whatever read his crap if it fits your shoe.
quote:Originally posted by Tommy 70: Tiger the orfi paper is nothing to worry about. legalizing it which is important to have the rights for both parts, here in this case its not legalized, so its just a paper with no rights. About remarrying again, it will be a problem if you are a real Muslim. But if you converted just because the marriage issue, there is nothing to worry about.
Of course I know that, been long enough on here lol . I was actually speaking about if her ex would have taken this document to get it legalized. But at this point she doesn't have any info if this indeed happened or not.
Perhaps he got already rid off it and is in involved in a new orfi marriage. I read on here the most terrible stuff about Egy guys - even having numerous Orfi wives at once and these women don't even know about each other. How can these men sleep at night??? Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by pjanoo: . And don't worry, I left the country the same day I left him, so if on the offchance he did make it legal I would not have been there. Thanks guys.
What you have been through (abuse) would have turned most off the women off to ever return to this country.
Good luck with your plans to move back to Egypt and hey.... it would be nice to see you here again at one point.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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Tiger he can't legalized it without her presence, she must be there with her passport and papers. I dont know why they make a big issue out of Nothing, she is not a muslim so she can marry again without any problems.
Posts: 37 | Registered: Nov 2009
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No really it happened before to foreign women that without their permission the orfi contracts were legalized and because of that they were then literally 'in the doghouse'.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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Tommy, Tiger knows best and she only looks at things from one perspective. Her own. Give up the goose chase eh
And coming from the biggest Egypt basher on here you hypocracy smells more that a zabaleens ship ship!
PJ... you know what is best, you know what is possible and you know what is right. See you soon Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Tommy 70: Tiger he can't legalized it without her presence, she must be there with her passport and papers. I dont know why they make a big issue out of Nothing, she is not a muslim so she can marry again without any problems.
Tommy is correct in saying this.
Posts: 1048 | From: If you are given a blessing you may be envied | Registered: Oct 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: Tommy, Tiger knows best and she only looks at things from one perspective. Her own. Give up the goose chase eh
And coming from the biggest Egypt basher on here you hypocracy smells more that a zabaleens ship ship!
That's coming from you who says that only others wear rose colored glasses...
You know I gotta say your link to Daniel Pipes' site showed your true colors what you really think about Muslims.
And unfortunately you can't hold a proper discussion without getting all bitchy.... but nevermind people know you on this forum and elect not to argue with you.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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Funny thing is you have no idea about my opinions about Muslims... i merely sent a link to a guy i know has helped others. You just happen not to like him where as 25k people plus have registered!
Right, I am off to Merryland to meet my 2 muslim boys... for all you know i cculd be married or could be real soon... great thing is, you haven't a clue.
Accusing me of being racist is on a par with saying i was unfir to teach special needs... both of which highlight your stupidity.
Salam... boys... heeeere i come Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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Yes if he did it when she was out of the country, if he already did it then she would be sh*t out of luck. Because there would be two witnesses swearing it was her and the burden of proving it wrong would lie completely with her. A
Erm wouldn't she be able to prove she was out of the country when he did this (hypothetically )cos she wouldn't have a visa stamp with the date in her passport when he said she was supposed to be there ?
Apparently my post wasn't clear, I said if he had done it BEFORE (as in maybe he did when she was still there without her knowledge) she left the country then she would have a very hard time proving that it wasn't her.
As it is, even if he did it AFTER she left the country then yes, she would have proof that she wasn't in the country at the time. However it would still be considered a "legal" document in egypt until she could prove that it had been done "illegally". This would not be so simple as showing a visa stamp as some people seem to think. She would have to hire a lawyer and fight it out in court, have the document declared illegal and invalidated. Until such time as this is possible she would be considered under the law, his wife. Much like when someone steals your identity. Also her religion does not matter in this situation, muslim or christian, or zoroastrian, it would be illegal for her to marry another egyptian regardless of HIS religion as well if she was married to this other man.
Posts: 44 | Registered: Nov 2009
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perhaps i should get pregnant after my secret orfi so his parents will accept me... keep em coming, you are funny.
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by HiMyNameIs: She would have to hire a lawyer and fight it out in court, have the document declared illegal and invalidated.
And this means it could take years, headaches and lots of money .....
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Tommy 70: Tiger he can't legalized it without her presence, she must be there with her passport and papers. I dont know why they make a big issue out of Nothing, she is not a muslim so she can marry again without any problems.
Tommy is correct in saying this.
Both of you are wrong. Do either of you live in Egypt or have been in this situation in Egypt? Please don't give information that is false.
Lots of things happen in Egypt that aren't exactly "legal" through means of wasta, and baksheesh. Women reading this forum need to be aware that this is a completely different government and legal situation then in their native countries. Almost anything is possible if you know the right people or have enough money.
Posts: 44 | Registered: Nov 2009
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Oh don't flatter yourself so much, Cheekyferret, remember: This threat is NOT about you and your awesome life you seem to think everyone here envies you for.
Go and have some drinks..... that usually keeps you busy and sane in Egypt. And don't worry, ES can do very well without you.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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Thanks for the clarification MNI your post was not clear enough personally i'd hunt him down and whip his ass Posts: 3945 | From: ' Res Contr ' Amor non es guirens, lai on sos poders s'atura | Registered: Dec 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Tommy 70: Tiger he can't legalized it without her presence, she must be there with her passport and papers. I dont know why they make a big issue out of Nothing, she is not a muslim so she can marry again without any problems.
Tommy is correct in saying this.
Both of you are wrong. Do either of you live in Egypt or have been in this situation in Egypt? Please don't give information that is false.
Lots of things happen in Egypt that aren't exactly "legal" through means of wasta, and baksheesh. Women reading this forum need to be aware that this is a completely different government and legal situation then in their native countries. Almost anything is possible if you know the right people or have enough money.
Actually I live here and with the correct evidence and more baksheesh you can disprove the liars and cheats.
We have a lawyer who helps us disprove folk all the time, only two weeks ago my Visa was proven not to be invalid as I was originally fined for on exiting the country. One little trip to Mogamma and a lil ole screaming fit I was soon given a valid visa Without any bribary, just hard evidence and a women with the mother tongue and balls
It IS who you know and not what you know but if you are prepared to fight for what is right then you are more than likely gonna win Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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I don't understand your point. Are you disagreeing with me? I think we said the same thing almost. You are agreeing that with baksheesh and "the right people" you can get anything done. I think maybe you contradicted yourself a little bit.
However visitors visas and registered orfi contracts are completely separate matters so really can not be dealt with in the same way. Please don't give any woman the illusion that it would be so simple as walking into a police station and flashing a copy of a visa stamp. It would be considered a legal contract until she would be able to prove otherwise. The difficulty of the situation would depend on who everyone (him and her) knows.
I don't disagree that with the correct evidence she could get it done, I disagree that it will be so simple. I agree that she (or any woman who finds herself in this situation) should be prepared for a fight, not thinking as it will be so simple as to walk in with a lawyer and walk out with it cleared up in a day. This situation would in my understanding require a court case to be brought against the people who perpetuated the crime and considering one of them would be a Egyptian judge it would be no small deal. However with any luck most men who saw you meant business at this point would rip up any contracts and beg forgiveness. I just don't think it is in the best interest of people who read this site for information on orfi's to not be aware of all the possibilities and consequences. As many people say in regards to the bureaucracy in Egypt, there is no such thing as an easy or small task.
Posts: 44 | Registered: Nov 2009
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I used my Visa scenario as a proven point that the truth prevails with evidence. (and a good lawyer)
You said an Egyptian can bribe if needs be to falsify documents but the same dude can also be bribed back to tell the original truth!!!!! (with evidence)
What confused you?
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by pjanoo: . And don't worry, I left the country the same day I left him, so if on the offchance he did make it legal I would not have been there. Thanks guys.
What you have been through (abuse) would have turned most off the women off to ever return to this country.
Good luck with your plans to move back to Egypt and hey.... it would be nice to see you here again at one point.
Why would I want to give up my great career, my friends, my fantastic lifestyle, just because I had some trouble with a man? I have lived happily in Egypt for two years and I most certainly did not move there for him or anyone else. It seems crazy to me that I should leave my wonderful life there just because of him.
Thanks Tiger, maybe we can catch up sometime!
Thanks HMNI for your useful posts. But really, I can't see what he would have to gain by making our marriage legal. He earns more money than me, was already denied a visa for my country, and didn't even want to stay married to me unless I became Muslim, which I flat out refused to do. So I can't see any reason why he would be a problem any more? But yeah just in case I want to know the facts of what he could possibly do if he was that way inclined.
Posts: 14 | From: Hurghada, Egypt | Registered: Aug 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Tommy 70: Tiger the orfi paper is nothing to worry about. legalizing it which is important to have the rights for both parts, here in this case its not legalized, so its just a paper with no rights. About remarrying again, it will be a problem if you are a real Muslim. But if you converted just because the marriage issue, there is nothing to worry about.
PJANOO..This is correct information. My husband is an Egyptian lawyer. You are not legally married. Got it?
Posts: 525 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2005
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CheekyFerret, I understand what you are saying now and agree with your last comments.
Snapdragon, nobody said she was currently legally married, we were just discussing the what-ifs and that it is possible for registering the marriage without her knowledge.
Pjanoo, in the cases I have heard where the marriage has been registered without consent it is in an attempt to blackmail the wife into giving money in order to grant her a divorce. It doesn't matter if he made more than you in Egypt, most of those type of men assume you have money in your country or you have wealthy family.
Posts: 44 | Registered: Nov 2009
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