posted
Whilst on holiday I had a 'fling' with a younger Egyptian male who worked at my hotel. We'd chatted a lot previously and I grew to like him and it was fun and we laughed a lot. BUT his sexual knowledge was almost zilch.
When home I googled and was disappointed to see how high Egypt is in the FGM rates. Although much reduced in the urban educated classes, it is still very prevalent (90%?)in rural areas.
He is from a village near Alexandria, has learnt to speak English for the tourists but seems to read little else other than the Koran.
Is it the case that some of the men (especially those uneducated) just don't know that women have clitorises? Is their sexual practice just kissing, breasts and penetration (followed very shortly by ejaculation)?
When I tried to have a conversation about female anatomy and physiology, he said 'I am stupid', when I asked did he understand about fertility cycles, be said 'my wife will know'. Will she?
Obviously to him I am a decadent loose Western woman because he did make the assumption that I would have sex with him. But would he have been terribly shocked if I had taken a greater initiative?
I know the answer to this is down to individual psychology but I was wondering what you knowledgeable and experienced people thought?
BTW With regard to FGM, I consider it the duty of every woman and man to do all they can to have this evil practice abolished.
Regards Songlian
Posts: 8 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2010
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posted
I believe most Egyptian men and that means either the vast majority or all Egyptian men know that "women have clitorises". I personally do not know of one who doesn't. And most have no sexual practice. I never asked for details from those who are married or have experience but I was sitting with a few guys a few months ago and one started teasing another who has been married to a European woman for years and has a child with her, that he "licks". He immediately denied that he ever did such a thing. They did not just mean it literally but it also implied that he was whipped. The conversation or rather the joking extended to receiving oral sex and the reaction was the same. Everyone but one denied they ever engaged in such an act. The one who did said that the woman (European) initiated it. That happened in Dahab which is a quite resort town and they were all uneducated or had very little education. At least one was a farmer until he went to Dahab and worked in hospitality.
Posts: 1044 | Registered: Nov 2009
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posted
Thank you for your reply, it is most helpful.
But it is disappointing that oral sex is regarded this way. Although some men aren't too keen on giving, I've never heard of a man that didn't like receiving!
<goes away to think further strategies and takes cattle prod out of suitcase>
Posts: 8 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2010
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posted
Thank you for your reply, it is most helpful.
But it is disappointing that oral sex is regarded this way. Although some men aren't too keen on giving, I've never heard of a man that didn't like receiving!
Please feel free to post any further snippets that you have knowledge of. I take it you're male? I'm quite happy to ask questions in the field but I wouldn't want to offend anyone.
<goes away to think further strategies and takes cattle prod out of suitcase>
Regards Songlian
Posts: 8 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2010
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posted
There was an article recently posted somewhere on ES about the government revising the national school curriculum, removing such nasty tid bits as pollination because that somehow alluded to boys and girls getting together and making babies.
Science and Egypt do not mix as it is, but add anything related to s-e-x in the mix and there's a public outcry because Egypt's moral social structure is at risk.
But, as with most of what goes on in Egypt, it really is all about the illusion of public perception. It used to be that men would watch bawdy movies together. Now they just watch porn on their computers and learn that way. As long as it isn't being taught in schools, in any way, shape, or form, it simply isn't happening at all.
Women? They get the bulk of their information from married friends and relatives and the quality varies.
I think you'd be hard pressed to find an Egyptian male who didn't know about FGM much less what gets cut off and why. After all, FGM goes back thousands of years in Egypt, has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with culture and tradition, and its reduction has been in the mainstream media for years now.
Posts: 758 | From: Here. There. Everywhere. | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Songlian: But it is disappointing that oral sex is regarded this way. Although some men aren't too keen on giving, I've never heard of a man that didn't like receiving!
So you've had one illicit experience and you're ready to paint an entire society with one brush?
Islam's rules about sex are limited to the following:
It must be within the constructs of marriage. No copulation during menstration. No ... back door activity.
Christians are simply confined to within a marriage.
Those are the only limitations.
Overall, though, people do not discuss what goes on in the bedroom because that's supposed to be between the husband, wife, and God. Therefore, you aren't going to hear a bunch of sordid details about marital (or otherwise) sexual habits.
Posts: 758 | From: Here. There. Everywhere. | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
"So you've had one illicit experience and you're ready to paint an entire society with one brush?"
No, I was asking the question and my response was to the first reply. But I am sorry to have appeared to have generalised, I do realise there are all sorts everywhere. But I am interested in hearing different points of view from different people.
I'm not interested in 'sordid' details, just how it all works, and, of course, the position of women in society.
Many thanks for your reply.
Regards Songlian
Posts: 8 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2010
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posted
How what works and what do you want to know about the position of women in society that reading through these boards or a simple google search won't tell you?
I'm still not sure what you're after.
Posts: 758 | From: Here. There. Everywhere. | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
I've read through much of these boards and done quite a lot of google searching. But the more you learn the more questions you have.
I've never been a "sex tourist" before and have quite fell in love with Egypt. But I work (and live) from a feminist perspective so the increasingly apparent inequalities and injustices are disturbing to me. I talk to everyone and was disappointed that I did not find any women to talk to in Egypt. As a Western woman and tourist with money, obviously I was welcomed and/or tolerated, but that is not the same as experiencing life first hand.
And it's funny how life comes in themes; a new work colleague is half Egyptian but Canadian nationality and says it is now too dangerous to visit relatives in Alexandria because of the rape and murder of Christian girls, a South American client who believes that her Egyptian husband will murder her for her dishonour and disrespect and another client who has chosen a boyfriend, although Muslim, is too dark skinned/inferior to be acceptable for her parents.
These are all women that are suffering through culture/religion and it makes me feel as though I should not be a part of it. Should I spend my tourist money in a country that has such a flagrant disregard for human rights? The subjugation of women has a huge role in sustaining this status quo. There are, of course, many decent men in Egypt but many have antiquated (in my view) perceptions and their interpretation of the scriptures contribute to this situation.
Sexuality plays a pivotal role. What could be more illustrative than the invisibility of women? But this is only an outsider's view.
I am interested in what others think.
Regards Songlian
Posts: 8 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2010
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posted
If you wanna talk to women in Egypt, there are a lot to talk to. Only higher class will understand English. Others understand Arabic, Get a translator and go talk to them.
They are not in Sinai of course. You need to go to Cairo to meet them.
Posts: 277 | Registered: Aug 2010
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posted
As for male sexuality, Do not expect so much sexuality from an ignorant person in the tourism field.
Posts: 277 | Registered: Aug 2010
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posted
Songlian. 3 times I have started to post here and 3 times I have stopped myself.
Lets deal with your last post first. The Canadian/Egyptian is scare mongering a bit I feel. There are women on here who live in Alex, who are married to Muslim or Christian men and are western themselves, so why an Egyptian feels it is not safe to visit his own family is beyond me. You are in London, its a darn site more worrying to be there with rape, burglary, pick pockets and murderers on a daily basis not to mention the bombings. I promise you there is more rape and murder and even honour killings going off on your very doorstep than there is in Alex.
Your south American client could also fear a south american husband murdering her for disrespect and dishonour or even an English man if whatever she did hit his point of no return.
The last one is hardly the fault of the Egyptian dark skinned one and more a racist intolerance of his girlfriends parents! There is not a lot he can do to change his skin colour to suit them is there.
NONE of this shows women 'suffering through culture/religion' to me.
Now regaring your first post and you wanting to know how women are viewed in this society. A tourist who puts out at first chance is considered loose. ALL westerners are considered loose anyway, we have sex in the streets back in UK and walk about naked and have orgies, this is really what many think. Tourists come and are taken with the sweet talk, believe me when you've been a few times you will know they all learn from the same book!
Egyptian woman for the most part want to marry and have babies and be supported by the husband for which they will cook and clean and make sure he is fed and watered and tend to his every need. Not many will speak to you as you are considered a tourist for 'business' by many unless and until they get to know you, which will not happen unless you come regularly or live here. Woman rarely speak to tourists unless they have to.
I am basing the majority of this on Upper Egypt and not Cairo, things are a little different there but not a great deal.
Women here are not 'suffering' as you think they are although as a foreigner you may feel it is suffering. If your client with the racist parents is still with her dark skinned muslim, ask her why she chooses to suffer like this.
Men of anywhere cannot be generalized. Are ALL British men the same? Of course not. What you have to be careful of is the message YOU are putting out for them. If you visit this country YOU have to be aware that YOU are the foreigner and that YOU have to respect their culture, their religions and their way of things.
you will not experience life here first hand unless you can realize the above facts of life here and think more about what you may be seen as. I really don't mean to sound rude here and this is why it's taken me a few tries at posting here. In your (our) culture it is not seen the same if you meet a man and eventually sleep with him before marriage, here it is a big NO NO, it does happen often but it is not 'on show' and is frowned on by the society, even the man you sleep with!
I visited Egypt about 18 times before I moved here and its over the time of living here that I have learnt what those visits could never have taught me. Egypt has a 'surface' life and a real life and you only see the surface life as a tourist. You need to learn more about the culture and the religions here as God (Allah) plays a huge part in everyones life here, Christian and Muslim alike, and no disrespect is accepted. Saying that, they do make huge allowances for foreigners not understanding and are helpful.
You are safer among Egyptian people than you are among your own in London, the streets here are safer than UK. The honour and respect and family values is what UK had in the 50s and is lost.
You can of course also visit Egypt and not be part of any of the life or the locals here and stay in a hotel complex that will guard you from the hassle, but that to me is not Egypt.
There are MANY women on these forums that find this place after a visit and a love affair. There are MANY who get ripped off and many who get their hearts broken and many even keep going back for more. You saying you are not rich falls on deaf ears, of course you are massively rich as you can afford a holiday to Egypt and you are English which means the government give you money for breathing, yes they do think that. There are also many women very happily married to Egyptian men in Egypt and back in their own countries.
I have run out of steam now sorry. Read some of these pages and you will learn about the mentality, the culture, the men and how they tick.
Good luck and sorry if I said anything you may consider a bit OTT, its late here.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Brilliant post Ayisha. I think I agree with everything you've said. What a balanced well written piece *applause* Posts: 71 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2009
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quote:Originally posted by ukthoughtful: Brilliant post Ayisha. I think I agree with everything you've said. What a balanced well written piece *applause*
i second that...
Posts: 9776 | From: You like If only mosquitoes sucked fat instead of blood. | Registered: Jul 2007
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I take on board everything you say but I do not mean to specifically target Egypt or Egyptians. Of course, abuse happens everywhere. But at last google Egypt rated second in the world for prevalence of FGM after Somalia. And from the ECWR "Egypt ranked towards the bottom of the World Economic Forum’s Global Gender Gap Report 2010: 125th out of the 134 ranked countries."
Whilst I respect the positive aspects of other cultures and religions, with emphasis on respect and family values, there are parts that are abhorrent.
Just for the record though, apart from a few no-go areas, I feel perfectly safe in London. People's perception of the risks are far greater than the reality.
However, your reply was most helpful and informative and I am aware of the impact I have and very aware of the value of my English pounds.
I hope you have a nice day and once again, thank you for taking the time to reply.
Regards Songlian
Posts: 8 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2010
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