www.egiptomania.com/antiguoegipto/middle/
scroll down and click "Beni Hassan" and then
scroll down to "Tomb of Khety"...or to go
straight to it. www.egiptomania.com/antiguoegipto/middle/
benijety04.jpg

In terms of Egyptian artwork is mostly symbolic,and Egyptians never depicted themselves naturally untill about the18th dyansty. Sculpture like the erroenously labled Nubian reserve head found during the 4th dyansty were mistakenly labled Nubian because of the prejustice of the time period,which in modern times is still held by few scholars. Other artifacts of clearly black Egyptians exist dating to early periods. Artifacts of negriod type sculpture during the Badarian demonstrated that this ethno type has always been present in the population of Egyptians along with other elements. There is no reason to seek slave origins for black Egyptians that exist in modern and ancient era.

___Here is an example of early racist scholarship that presummed that negriod artifacts found in Egypt had to be Nubian or foreign in origin. Evidence has shown this reserve head is infact an Egypt not a Nubian as once presumed.

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:
http://www.metmuseum.org/explore/new_pyramid/PYRAMIDS/HTML/el_pyramid_head2.htm
___Here is an example of early racist scholarship that presummed that negriod artifacts found in Egypt had to be Nubian or foreign in origin. Evidence has shown this reserve head is infact an Egypt not a Nubian as once presumed.

[/B]

---

___People will often point out the Nefetiti bust,but fail to include this possible sculpture of Neferiti's daughter.

This is not true Horemheb,because Egyptians show gene frquenices that also have affinitied with black Africans. Black Egyptians have always existest,so it is not as insane as you think it is.

Egyptians are not related to Southern Europeans or any Europeans by any means.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

___People will often point out the Nefetiti bust,but fail to include this possible sculpture of Neferiti's daughter.

---

Ancient Egypt was an African civlization with many affinities with other African groups. Evidence from pre-dyanstic sites in Upper Egypt prove this to be a fact. Dna studies have proven that the ancestors of the ancient Egyptians are the modern Egyptians living in Egypt. Modern Egypt is as diverse as the ancient ones,so you have Costal Northern African types in the north,and more African types in the south.

Medditerean is rather a vague label that was coined by an anthropologist named Gullselpi Sergi. Sergi also believed that people in Ethiopia were Medditereans. I am aware that people in India have dark skin,but Indians have straight hair. Many Egyptians ancient and modern had kinky hair with a protrusive jaw. For the most part having a protrusive jaw is exclusive to African populations and only found in some European caucasian groups.

Dna is only as good as the samples and from which the samples are taken from. Depending on the area which you take samples from,you will get different results from Egypt. Plenty of Dna samples have been done on Egyptian populations that demonstrate modern Egyptians contain many halpotypes including an exlcusive Yap + marker which is found mainly amung African groups.

Here is a Dna study on Egyptian halpotypes

Y-chromosome Haplotypes in Egypt

to appear in American Journal of Physical Anthropology
Brief communication: Y-chromosome haplotypes in Egypt
G. Lucotte *, G. Mercier
International Institute of Anthropology, Paris, France
ABSTRACT

We analyzed Y-chromosome haplotypes in the Nile River Valley in Egypt
in 274 unrelated males, using the p49a,f TaqI polymorphism. These
individuals were born in three regions along the river: in Alexandria
(the Delta and Lower Egypt), in Upper Egypt, and in Lower Nubia.
Fifteen different p49a,f TaqI haplotypes are present in Egypt, the
three most common being haplotype V (39.4%), haplotype XI (18.9%),
and haplotype IV (13.9%). Haplotype V is a characteristic Arab
haplotype, with a northern geographic distribution in Egypt in the
Nile River Valley. Haplotype IV, characteristic of sub-Saharan
populations, shows a southern geographic distribution in Egypt. Am J
Phys Anthropol 121:000-000, 2003. © 2003 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
..
As for mtDNA (Krings et al., [1999]), the present study on the Y-
chromosome haplotype shows that there are northern and southern Y-
haplotypes in Egypt. The main Y-haplotype V is a northern haplotype,
with a significantly different frequency in the north compared to the
south of the country: frequencies of haplotype V are 51.9% in the
Delta (location A), 24.2% in Upper Egypt (location B), and 17.4% in
Lower Nubia (location C). On the other hand, haplotype IV is a
typical southern haplotype, being almost absent in A (1.2%), and
preponderant in B (27.3%) and C (39.1%). Haplotype XI also shows a
preponderance in the south (in C, 30.4%; B, 28.8%) compared to the
north (11.7% in A) of the country. In mtDNA, sequences of the first
hypervariable HpaI site at position 3592 allowed Krings et al.
([1999]) to designate each mtDNA as being of northern or southern
affiliation, and proportions of northern and southern mtDNA differed
significantly between Egypt, Nubia, and the Southern Sudan.
It is interesting to relate this peculiar north/south
differentiation, a pattern of genetic variation deriving from the two
uniparentally inherited genetic systems (mtDNA and Y chromosome), to
specific historic events. Since the beginning of Egyptian history
(3200-3100 B.C.), the legendary king Menes united Upper and Lower
Egypt. Migration from north to south may coincide with the Pharaonic
colonization of Nubia, which occurred initially during the Middle
Kingdom (12th Dynasty, 1991-1785 B.C.), and more permanently during
the New Kingdom, from the reign of Thotmosis III (1490-1437 B.C.).
The main migration from south to north may coincide with the 25th
Dynasty (730-655 B.C.), when kings from Napata (in Nubia) conquered
Egypt.
..
Concerning less frequent Y-haplotypes in Egypt, haplotype VIII is
characteristic of Semitic populations, originating in the Near East
(Lucotte et al., [1993]). For example (Lucotte et al., [1996]), the
frequency of haplotype VIII is 26.2% among North African Jews (where
it represents the majority haplotype) and 77.5% among Jews from the
island of Djerba (Tunisia), reaching 85.1% among Oriental (from Iraq,
Iran, and Syria) Jews. Similarly, haplotype VII had a general
geographical distribution fairly identical to that of haplotype VIII
(which it often accompanies as a secondary haplotype); haplotype VII
distinguishes itself by increased preponderance north of the
Mediterranean and in Eastern Europe (Lucotte et al., [1996]).
Haplotype XV is the most widespread Y-haplotype in Western Europe
(Lucotte and Hazout, [1996]), where its frequency decreases from west
to east (Semino et al., [1996]; Lucotte and Loirat, [1999]).
Haplotypes VIII, VII, and XV are less common haplotypes in Egypt
(7.3%, 6.6%, and 5.5%, respectively), and tend to be located in the
north of the country, near the Mediterranean coast. Possibly
haplotypes VIII, VII, and XV represent, respectively, Near East,
Greek, and Roman influences.
_____ noitice that VI are common southern markers.

The mid-twentieth Egyptologist Alan Gardiner, who was considered an
authority on the ancient civilization of Kemet, gave the following
report on the human remains of the pre-dynastic Badarians, Amratians,
and Gerzeans:

"These... were long-headed-dolicocephalic is the learned term-and
below even medium stature, but Negroid features are often to be
observed. Whatever may be said of the northerners, it is safe to
describe the dwellers in Upper Egypt as of essentially African stock,
a character always retained despite alien influences brought to bear
on them from time to time." (pg. 392; Egypt of the Pharaohs 1966)

The study does not clasify but shows Southern Egyptians pocess halpotypes that pocess sub-Saharan affimities. This makes sense after all studies from the past have showed Southern Egyptians since pre-dyanstic times have had a negriod element. We are talking as far back as the Badarian era which is dated to 5600 B.C.

In no way are Egyptians related to Medditerean people except in certain parts of Northern Egypt where Medditerean elements have been absorbed. People much realize that Egyptians are not one monlithic race,but a mixture of many different phenotypes and ethnotypes.

Frank Joseph Yurco,a leading Egyptologist.admits that Egypt was a diverse civlization with African roots. Egypt definatley in relgion and culture has more affinities with other Africans than Southern Europeans. Nobody is saying that all Egyptians were ''black'',but a good percentage were,and still are in Egypt. This goes back into pre-dyanstic times. You cannot ignore the pre-dyanstic Egyptians and their impact upon later Egyptian dyansties.

If you believe that Egyptians are Medditerean then prove that the oldest settlment in Upper Egypt is Medditerean. All the settlments in Upper Egypt going as far back as the Badarian have been shown to have African affinities. All have been found with varying degrees of avealou prognathism.

Explain why a negriod mummy in the Sahara desert dated to around 5700 B.C. was found? Why do many elements like divine kingship relate to ancient Egyptians and other African groups? How would you explain the sites of Nabta Playa that contain teeth that show affinities with sub-Saharan Africans? There is a direct line leading from African into Egypt that does not appear with other regions of the world.

Some cultural traits of Egypt shares with Africa:

1. Evidence of circumcision rites that boys go through in puberty

2. Divine kingship or traditional monarchies that are ritually killed

3.Mummified remains found in the Sahara dated to 5700 B.C. in Fezzan Libya with elaborate funeral cults
4. Early Egyptians attached much significance to cattle. One of the oldest deities in the Kemetian[Egyptian] pantheon is Het-Hor. Het-Hor shows also that early Egyptians were pastorial people,and recently it has been shown that cattle domestication was indepdent in Africa. You also notice on certain depictions in Egypt the horns of the cattled are twisted and deformed. This pratice goes back to Saharan rpck drawings which show this very same pratice.

6. The negriod reserve head I posted that was labeled by Resiner tobe a Nubian.

See the following texts for further reading:

Robins, G. and Shute C. Predynastic Egyptian stature and physical proportions" Journal of Human Evolution 4:313-324, 1986.
Strouhal, E. "Une contribution a la question du caratere de la population prehitorique de la haute-Egypte" Anthropolgie, 6, 1968.
__, "Evidence of the early penetration of negroes into prehistoric Egypt," Egyptian Journal of African History, 12: 1-9, 1971.

The Kemetians also presented the Nubians in their diverse colors that ranged like the ancient Kemetians.

Such examples are

[img]ttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ta_Seti/files/Ramessides/Ramses_Beit-Wali.jpg[/img]

___notice in this picture in Rameses III tomb he depicts a Nubian as having Reddish brown skin in a different loin cloth. In the other scene he depicts an Egyptian wearing a different loin cloth in black skin.

Pay real close attention to one of the Nubians in the scene because he is painted Reddish brown like the other Egyptians instead of black.

Notice in tomb of Sobekhotep that the artists depict Nubians in a deversity of Colors

Picture of Nubians in tomb of Rehimire with leather loin cloth painted with Reddish brown skin showing no distinction between Nubians and Egyptians!!!!!

You will notice in other tombs Egyptians depicted themselves different from Medditerean populations and other Northern African populations like Libyans. Take a look at the Kefitu[people from Crete],and the Hau-Nebu[Greeks] Egyptians paint themselves different from these people. Kefitu are shown with long dark hair with olive skin as opposed to black and Reddish brown of the Egyptians.

Michael F. Hammer did a study where he measured the genetic distance between African and non-African populations using Alu polymorphic (YAP) element. He tested a sample of 30 Egyptians and here's what he found:
The frequencies of the YAP element are
66% in Pygmies, 53% in Egyptians, 46% in Khosians, 4-11% in Europeans, non-existant in most of Asia except for Japan.
<http://mbe.library.arizona.edu/data/1994/1105/4hamm.pdf
=============================================

Mapping Diversity: Craniofacial Affinities in the Mid-Holocene Nile Valley Considered With Archaeological and Linguistic Data Grand Ballroom A: Thursday Afternoon - April 11, 2002, 4:00 -4:15 PM
S.O.Y. Keita(1), A.J. Boyce(2).
1Field Museum of Chicago, Roosevelt and Lakeshore Drive, Chicago, Illinois, 2Institute of Biological Anthropology, Oxford University.
Session: 7
Poster number:
The appearance of agriculture in the Nile Valley occurs some 2000 years after its development in Europe and the Near East. The major cultigens are the same in these areas. It has been hypothesized by some researchers that agriculture emerges in the NileValley concomitant with the arrival of speakers of the Afro-Asiatic language family, both being brought after the differentiation of the Nostratic macofamily speech community. In this view agriculture (and Afro-Asiatic) come from Europe, the locale of the Nostratic cradle in this model. A phenetic craniometric analysis of early farmers from the Nile Valley of Upper Egypt was undertaken in order to explore this hypothesis. Badarian crania were studied with European and African series from the Howells' database, using generalized distances and cluster analyses (neighbour joining and UPGMA algorithms). Greater affinity is found with the African series. The results are considered with a variety of linguistic and archaeological evidence, as well as the findings of simulation studies relevant to this study. It is concluded that the earliest Nile Valley farmers in Upper Egypt for which there is record were locals, not European immigrants, and therefore that the development of agriculture in this region was not due to demic diffusion ultimately from Europe. The problems with phenetic affinity studies considered in isolation from other evidence will be discussed, as well as the flaws of thinking in terms of absolute identity, and not relative similarity.
Am J Phys Anthropol 1996 Oct;101(2):237-46 Related Articles, Links
=============================================

Am J Phys Anthropol 1996 Oct;101(2):237-46 Related Articles, Links
Concordance of cranial and dental morphological traits and evidence for endogamy in ancient Egypt.
Prowse TL, Lovell NC.
Department of Anthropology, University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada.
A biological affinities study based on frequencies of cranial nonmetric traits in skeletal samples from three cemeteries at predynastic Naqada, Egypt, confirms the results of a recent nonmetric dental morphological analysis. Both cranial and dental traits analyses indicate that the individuals buried in a cemetery characterized archaeologically as high status are significantly different from individuals buried in two other, apparently nonelite cemeteries and that the nonelite samples are not significantly different from each other. A comparison with neighbouring Nile Valley skeletal samples suggests that the high status cemetery represents an endogamous ruling or elite segment of the local population at Naqada, which is more closely related to populations in northern Nubia than to neighbouring populations in southern Egypt.
=============================================

Genetics of the Nile Corridor in the Context of African Diversity, Geographic Distances and Language Families Grand Ballroom A: Thursday Afternoon - April 11, 2002, 3:15 -3:30 PM
R. Kittles(1), S.O.Y. Keita(2).
1Howard University, Washington, DC, 20060, USA, 2Chicago Field Museum.
Session: 7
Poster number:
Explanations of human biological variation in extant African populations have historically been shaped by a racial paradigm, especially as it relates to northern and eastern Africa. Research on different genetic systems has consistently revealed high levels of genetic diversity in African populations and a subset of that diversity in non-African populations. In addition, the pattern of linkage disequilibrium appears to increase in non-African populations in relation to geographic distance from East Africa. Thus the Nile Valley may have been an important corridor for human migrations out of Africa.
Here we present an analysis of a large mtDNA dataset consisting of speakers from the Afro-Asiatic, Nilo-Saharan, and Niger-Congo language groups from eastern and western Africa. Genetic distances between populations were calculated from the data and compared with each other and to geographic and linguistic distances using the Mantel matrix correlation analysis. Comparisons of distance matrices revealed significant correlations between mtDNA diversity and geographic distances but not among the language groups (p = 0.234). Distinct patterns of mtDNA haplotypic variation were observed between eastern and western African populations suggesting historical migrations and movements of women between diverse populations

=============================================
POSTER NO: 584 Y chromosome polymorphisms indicate an ancient migration from the Himalayas to Japan 1B. Su, 3G.V. Ramana, 3S.H. Lu, 4B. Wen, 5R.S. Wells, 2R. Deka, 6P. Underhill, 2R. Chakraborty, 2L. Jin 1Key Laboratory of Cellular and Molecular Evolution, Kunming Institute of Zoology, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Kunming, China, 2Center for Genome Information, Department of Environmental Health, University of Cincinnati, Cincinnati,USA, 3Human Genetics Center, University of Texas-Houston, Houston,USA, 4Institute of Genetics, School of Life Sciences, Fudan University and Morgan-Tan International Center for Life Sciences, Shanghai,China, 5Wellcome Trust Center for Human Genetics, University of Oxford, Oxford,UK, 6Department of Genetics, Stanford University, Stanford,USA The Alu insertion polymorphism on the Y chromosome (YAP+) has a characteristic distribution in worldwide populations, mainly restricted in Africa, Central Asia and East Asia. The ongoing controversy on the origin of YAP+ and its mysterious occurrence in East Asia, i.e. dominant in Tibetan and Japanese populations but generally absent in other East Asian populations call for further studies along this ancient human lineage. Here we report our preliminary study on a systematic screening of YAP+ in more than 2,500 male individuals from 70 world populations. Nine Y chromosome biallelic markers derived from the YAP+ polymorphism and eight Y chromosome micro satellites were typed in 172 YAP+ individuals from Africa (35), South Asia (9), Southeast Asia (12) and East Asia (116). Our results showed that African and Asian YAP+ are distinctive from each other due to a deep genetic divergence. No evidence was found to support the hypothesis of an Asian origin of YAP+. Among the East Asian YAP+, Tibetans are the most diversified population and have the haplotype ancestral to those in Japanese, indicating an ancient migration from the Himalayas to Japan. In addition, a relatively recent migration of YAP+ from Tibet to Yunnan (southwestern China) was also implied by the homogenous YAP+ haplotypes in Yunnan ethnic populations, which was signified by the low microsatellite diversity and an almost fixed unique microsatellite allele at locus DYS392 in Yunnan populations.
<http://hgm2002.hgu.mrc.ac.uk/Abstracts/Publish/WorkshopPosters/WorkshopPoster11/hgm0584.htm
=============================================

an indicator of race,that is,a group of
people having s certain set of genes that give a distinct physical
features in common. The head forms vary accordinly to the flatness of
face,the projection of the jaw <so called prognathism and the head's
overall length breath,called a cephallic index in the case of the
defleashed skull. If the head's maximum breadth is x and the maximum
length y,then it's index is
A skull index of 80 is definded as broad or shoprt headed
{brachycephallic> from 75 to 80 as intermediate <mesocephalic} and
under 75 as long or narrow headed<dolicephallic}. Those of mongoloid
type are gernally regarded as having the broadest head,those definded
as negriod the narrowest
IAN Wilson
Ancient Lives
=============================================

Bodies of Evidence
Secrets of the sands:
Neolithic people from Dakhleh Oasis
Over the past few years, several skeletons, representing individuals from
about 3000BC, were found around the Dakhleh Oasis, in the western desert of
Egypt. These skeletons were recovered by Dr Jennifer Thompson, from the
University of Nevada, Las Vegas (UNLV), as part of her investigation of
human adaptation to arid lands.
People have lived in and around Dakhleh Oasis for thousands of years - as
shown by the stone tools and pottery recovered throughout the region. From
the archaeological evidence, we know that the Neolithic people in this
region were pastoralists. Once the area began to become more arid, from
about 6000BC onwards, people moved closer to the centre of the oasis, where
water and plants were still available, and this shows that they were
affected by changes in their environment. However, not much was known about
the people themselves: what did they look like, did they have any connection
with the Nile Valley, and how did they manage to survive the rapid
aridification of the desert?
Skeleton keys
To answer the first question, there are now skeletons, or parts of
skeletons, of six individuals from this era. What can they tell us? Four of
these individuals are males, one a female, and one is of unknown sex as it
is too fragmentary to make a diagnosis. One male was at least 5ft 6ins tall
and the female about 5ft 2ins in height, so there were some size differences
between the sexes. Most of these people died between the ages of 20 to 30
years of age, while one male reached an age of about 40. So life must have
been pretty tough for these individuals.
Dakhleh Oasis, located about 250km west of Luxor, is several days travel by
foot from the Nile Valley: was there any contact between these two areas?
The older male individual suffered from arthritis, and markings left by his
muscles indicate that he was powerfully built and probably had walked long
distances. He was the only individual who had an artifact with his burial. A
copper pin was found underneath his pelvis. Apparently, in the Nile Valley,
Neolithic males carried copper pins in leather pouches on their waists, as
indicated by burials from that region. This suggests that there may have
been contact between people of the two areas.
A comparison of the skulls of the most complete male and the female show
interesting size and shape differences. The female is similar in facial
features to females from the Nile Valley, while the male is more similar to
males from sub-Saharan Africa. More work needs to be done to confirm this,
but this evidence, along with the copper pin, suggests that travel occurred
between several regions of Africa at this time.
Survival skills
How did these people cope with increasing aridification in the area
surrounding the oasis? Again, the skeletons reveal clues about the health of
these pastoralists. Several individuals have enamel defects on their teeth
that suggest they suffered systematic stress from disease or poor nutrition.
Some enamel defects may have occurred at weaning, while others occur
throughout the teeth and indicate long-term stress during the time when the
teeth were forming.
Several individuals had incidences of dental cavities (caries). Root caries
are commonly found in pre-agricultural people because the diet tended to be
more abrasive, wearing down the surfaces of the crowns before carious
lesions could form there. With root caries, the lesion starts on the root
and eats its way up to the crown. This can lead to tooth loss or infection
of the bone surrounding the teeth, causing an abscess. In fact, two
individuals had abscesses and this may have been the cause of their death.
Abscesses can lead to blood poisoning and without treatment can be fatal.
Lifestyle choices
What are the implications of all this in terms of the lives of these people?
In terms of health, many of them died young: most of these individuals were
20 to 30 years of age. Their teeth show signs of pervasive and ongoing
stress. Only one individual lived to about 40 years - long enough to develop
arthritis.
These skeletal and dental finds are important because this time period,
approximately 6500 to 4000 years ago, is so far not well documented in terms
of physical remains. Skeletal evidence becomes more plentiful when it became
more common for people to be buried in cemeteries. The discovery of these
individuals from Dakhleh Oasis has helped to shed light on the health of
people from this time, and also allows contrasts to be made with earlier
people in this area as well as later agriculturalists.
• Dr Jennifer Thompson is a physical anthropologist known for her work on
Neanderthal and early modern humans, on more recent Chinese immigrants from
northern Nevada, as well as on the prehistoric people of Dakhleh Oasis. She
has been a member of the Dakhleh Oasis Project since 1997 and was invited to
join the project as their expert in prehistoric human remains. For more
information visit her website. http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/B/bodies/tsands00.html#jen <http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/B/bodies/tsands00.html>
=============================================

From Petrie onwards,it was rewguarly suggested,despite the evidence
of Pre dyanstic cultures,Egyptian civlization of the 1st dyansty
appeared suddently and must therfore have been instroduced by an
invading foreign ''race''. Since the 1970's however excavations at
bautu and nekhen have clearly ,demonstrated the indigenous Upper
Egyptian roots of early civlization in egypt. While there is
certainly evidence of foreign contact in the fourth millennium
B.C.,this was not in the form of millitary invasion
page 65
Oxford History of Ancient egypt
Ian Shaw
=============================================

One of the better "mainstream" books on Egyptian
prehistory is:
Midant-Reynes, Beatrix.
(translated by Ian Shaw)
The prehistory of Egypt from the first Egyptians to the
first pharaohs
Oxford, UK ; Malden, Mass. : Blackwell Publishers
Ltd., 2000.
The main problem I have with the book is the author's
views on the formation of pharaonic Egypt. She mentions
Bruce Williams but never critiques his theory.
Basically she credits the formation of the dynastic
system to Naqada rather than A-culture.
However, she is definitely a believer in the African
nature of Egyptian culture and civilization.
She states that 'oriental Palestinian' influence
extended only to Buto in the northern Delta right up to
the time of unification. The rest of Egypt is "African"
culture (she uses the quotes).
She makes brief mention of other theories of West Asian
influence but does not seem to give them much weight.
She paints a picture of the culture known elsewhere as
African Aqualithic and Saharo-Sudanese moving into the
Nile Valley. There is no mention of earlier connections
with Central Africa though.

In about two pages, she discusses why the book does not
go into biological ("race") relationships, which is
fine with me.
=============================================
http://www.comp-archaeology.org/WendorfSAA98.html>
The Combined Prehistoric Mission Field School (Southern Methodist
University, Polish Academy of Sciences, & Geological Survey of Egypt)
Director: Romuald Schild, Polish Academy of Sciences; Field Director: Fred
Wendorf, Southern Methodist University
During the 2000 field season the Combined Prehistoric Expedition organized
and carried out the field school in Saharan prehistory for 13 students at
Site E-00-1 in the Nabta Playa Area, South Western Desert, at the request of
officials of the Egyptian Antiquities Organization and the Geological Survey
of Egypt. The academic program was reported on in last year's Annual Report.
Elaborated here is the fieldwork, which concentrated on a narrow
deflational basin where at least two varieties of Early Neolithic
archaeology occur. These include a previously unknown type of assemblage
related to El Ghorab entity. It contains relatively numerous shards with
deeply impressed designs in a herringbone pattern (wolf's tooth) over the
entire vessel exterior.
To the south, a sample of ostrich eggshells gave a 14C age of 8200 ± 65
years BP (A-11080). The other Early Neolithic entity is known as Al Jerar,
dated elsewhere between 7800 and 7300 14C years BP. Al Jerar materials
yielded abundant pottery and associated stone tools. A typical Middle
Neolithic point with a concave base and a small collection of typical
pottery was found in the southern end of this site. At Site E-78-8, the
Middle Neolithic occurrences are dated between 7100 and 6600 14C years BP.
Ceramics of Late and Final Neolithic occurred over the entire area of Site
E-00-1. Well-made brown and red colored pottery, sometimes with red slips,
all with smoothed, sometimes burnished exterior, with no (or very rare)
impressed or incised designs, is characteristic of Late Neolithic in the
Western Desert. Some of the bowls also have smudged interiors and black
rims ('black-top ware'). The Late Neolithic pottery looks very much like
some Badarian pottery in Middle Egypt and some Abkan pottery in Sudanese
Nubia, near Wadi Halfa.
The distinctive Final Neolithic pottery at Site E-00-1 is gray in color and
made with clay from the Qusseir clastic member of the Nubia Formation. This
clay was quarried from outcrops, presumably nearby, and thus represents a
new technological step that sets it off from all of the earlier pottery
found in this part of Egypt, which was made from the playa clays. Some of
this Qusseir clastic pottery was colored red by covering the exterior with
ochre after it had been fired. Some pots also had 'ripple ware' exteriors,
probably local copies of the ripple ware made in the Nile Valley during the
Predynastic.
At Area B a sample of charcoal associated with Final Neolithic gave an age
of 5420 ± 160 years BP (A-11083). Four disturbed Late and Final (?)
Neolithic burials were also excavated at Site E-00-1. Of these, two were
double, one single, and one a bundle burial with ochre colored bones. A
sample of charcoal found just under one of the two skeletons in a double
burial gave an age of 5830 ± 60 years BP (ETH-22674), placing it in the
ending Late Neolithic. Morphological characteristics of the teeth recovered
from the burials at Site E-00-1 show close links with sub-Saharan human
populations.
For more information please visit <http://www2.smu.edu/anthro/fwendorf.html,>
and look for "Late Neolithic Research in the Egyptian Sahara"
<http://www.arce.org/research2.html>

=============================================

USA, FEB 17 2003
CHANNEL 5, TRANSMISSION DATE TO BE CONFIRMED
hi low
hi low
The programme explores the enigmatic central Saharan society which once spanned the entire north African continent. We unravel their tale through the story of the discovery of the black mummy, Uan Muhuggiag. It soon becomes obvious that these people were responsible for an extraordinary array of innovations which later became famous under the Egyptians. Their presence re-writes the history of Egypt and of the entire continent of Africa.
The background: the lost society of the central Sahara and the rise of ancient Egypt
The origins of ancient Egypt are archaeology’s greatest unsolved mystery. What prompted this remarkable culture to develop such distinctive rituals as mummification? Where did they get their ideas? As far as we know, Egypt was only preceded by one great civilisation: Mesopotamia. Although Mesopotamia is a far older culture – there is no evidence to suggest that these people had developed any similar funerary practises. But if Egyptian innovations did not come from earlier known civilisations – where did they come from?
The answer has come from an unlikely quarter – the barren Sahara desert. In the last few decades evidence has been mounting that the Egyptian civilisation was not the first advanced society in Africa. At the same time as Mesopotamia rose in the near east, another culture thrived in Africa. Although few people have heard of it – this central Saharan culture is providing evidence for the invention of ritual activity which had previously been attributed to the Egyptians.
The first clue for archaeologists was the abundant rock art found all over the central Sahara from Libya to Egypt to Mali. The rock art depicts animals like crocodiles and rhinos – which do not live in deserts. It also shows scenes of hunting and rituals involving men wearing animal masks. All of this art was a firm clue that this area was once a hive of activity. It spurred archaeologists to dig and over the past fifty years they’ve uncovered an entire unknown society.
The society was nomadic – groups of animal herders wandered all over the region and eventually spread their uniform culture throughout the continent of north Africa. They lived in huts and had time to make art and invent rituals. By the time the culture reached its pinnacle around 6ooo years ago these people had invented rituals which indicate a fairly complex world view. They were communicating with the heavens and using funerary rituals like mummification to treat their dead.
But all of this evidence indicated an Eden-like place – one with trees, grasses and abundant running waters. And yet nothing could be further from this picture than the Sahara today. Although archaeologists had already assembled the clues, the science of climatology solidly confirmed what all had suspected: this area was once a lush savannah landscape. Changes in the tilt of the earth’s axis had caused drought in the Sahara and brought this thriving society to an end. But with the demise of the central Saharan culture, people wandered all over northern Africa in search of greener pastures. The Nile valley was an obvious destination. Around 6000 years ago central Saharan ideas arrived in the Nile valley – adding mummification and other rituals to the potent mix which was to become the Egyptian civilisation.
The mummy and archaeology in Libya:
An Italian team of archaeologists first explored the Libyan Sahara almost fifty years ago. In 1958 they struck gold. Professor Fabrizio Mori discovered the black mummy at the Uan Muhuggiag rockshelter. The mummy of a young boy, Uan Muhuggiag was destined for controversy. He was older than any comparable Egyptian mummy and his mere existence challenged the very idea that Egyptians were the first in the region to mummify their dead. Although the Italian team from the university of Rome “La Sapienza”, has since discovered other mummified tissue, they have not yet discovered another complete mummy in the region. But Uan Muhuggiag was no one off. The sophistication of his mummification suggested he was the result of a long tradition of mummification. Investigations in the area continue under the direction of Dr Savino di Lernia and Professor Mario Liverani.
Climatology:
Professor Mauro Cremaschi of CIRSA (University of Milan and University of Rome “La Sapienza”) heads the Italian Climatology team which focuses on the Acacus area of Libya. Dr Kevin White (Reading University) heads an English team focussing on the nearby Fezzan region. Both teams are using the latest satellite technology to clarify our picture of climate in the central Sahara over the past several hundred thousand years.
Another lost Libyan civilisation:
The Fezzan project, headed by Professor David Mattingly (University of Leicester) focuses on the Garamantes civilisation which thrived from 1500bc-500ad. The Garamantes were known by the Romans as barbarians but evidence from the Sahara shows a large, sophisticated civilisation. Remains show substantial architecture and a complex society replete with numerous luxuries. Almost 100,000 tombs litter the Fezzan escarpment – to date these bodies are the most concrete testimony to this little-known people.
further reading
Mummies, Disease and Ancient Cultures by A and E Cockburn & T Reyman l Ancient Egypt: Life, Myth and Art by J Fletcher l Rock Art of the Sahara by H Hugor & M Bruggman l Holocene Settlement of the Egyptian Sahara by F Wendorf l Archaeology of Sub Saharan Africa by J Vogel l Archaeology and Environment in the Libyan Sahara by B Barich l Garamantes of the Fezzan by Charles Daniels
interesting links Www.cru.uea.ac.uk <http://Www.cru.uea.ac.uk> <http://Www.cru.uea.ac.uk> <Http://i-cias.com/e.o/fezzan.htm> Www.countryreports.org/history/libhist.htm <http://Www.countryreports.org/history/libhist.htm> <http://Www.countryreports.org/history/libhist.htm> Www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/herod-Libya.htm <http://Www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/herod-Libya.htm> <http://Www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/herod-Libya.htm>
credits l narrator: kerry shale l exec prod: tracey gardiner l prod: gillian mosely l dir: chris hooke l ed: benedict jackson & sue outlaw l research: sophie mautner l head of prod: martin long l prod manager: sandra leeming l prod co-ord: donna blackburn l
sales enquiries l please contact martin long, head of production l t 020 7689 4248 l f 020 7490 0206 l e info@fulcrumtv.com <mailto:info@fulcrumtv.com> http://www.fulcrumtv.com/blackmummy.htm
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quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
I'll dig up the study, it is the most recent stuff avilable. Give me a day or so...I went through a lot of that type of data back in the fall. If you mean 'dark skinned' I will agree with you, if you mean the negroid race I totally disagree. People in India are directly related to Europeans but they have darker skin because of the climate. This is a hugh distinction...AE is NOT an African civilization, but rather a Med. civilization.

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quote:

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Originally posted by imhotep:
Horemheb, the dark skin found in Indian populations is due to Austral and Negroid admixture. Australoids like Negroids can have dark brown skin.
Indian Aryans (particularly Brahmins), like Europeans CANNOT have a rich brown skin tone. They can get tans but its a far cry from rich brown.
Likewise, most middle-easterners with brown skin have some form of negroid or australoid admixture e.g. Yemenis

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BTW, I'm convinced that people (throughout the world) depict(ed) themselves quite accurately in their art forms. Further they depicted their "ideal" selves. Indeed, I haven't come across Egyptian paintings which depicted Egyptians as pygmies. Likewise, I haven't seen Greek paintings or sculptures that depicted Greeks as Mongoloid or even Negroid.
Since Greek and other European works of art, for the most part, significantly differ from Egyptian forms (in their depictions of their citizens), it can be argued that these people are entirely different. Nubian and Ethiopian artworks, by contrast, bear closer resemblance.
Please note, however, that I'm not suggesting that Ancient Egypt had Caucasoid populations. Indeed most ancient civilizations had diverse populations. Greece itself had foreign populations (comprising merchants, mercenaries, slaves and conquered peoples).

Cavalli Sfoza only studied certain Northern Africans from Algeria,Morocco,and Libya. He never studied Egyptian Mtdna or Y-Chromsome. The study I posted showed that of all the samples the sub-Saharan marker was in 23% of the Egyptian sample they took. You might read some studies,but I don't think your understanding of them is quite coherent. Dna samples are only as good where they are taken.

Know what you don't point out about Sfoza work is that he found a predominant sample of Sub-Saharan Mtdna in Tuaregs,who are a Northern African Berber tribe. Sfoza also found large samples of sub-Saharan Mtdna from the Sahara region.

''*** Di Riezo et al (1994) studied the relationship of three samples (taken from Egyptians, Sardinians, and sub-Saharan Africans), using mitochondrial DNA and simple sequence repeats. In terms of genetic distance, the Egyptian sample was closer to the sardinain sample than to the sub-Saharan African sample.''

I am aware of this study,but Hammer conducted a study on 34 Egyptian samples and found 53% Yap + halpotype. This is rare in Southern Europeans and other European populations. Like I said before the samples determine the genetic distance. Why did my y-Chromsome study show that a sub-Saharan pressence was in the Upper Egyptian sample? Why does Mtdna show a close connection to Northern Nubian populations. Can you attempt to explain this. How many of these supposed samples came from rual Egyptians that have had less admixture than city dwellers in urban Egypt.

Of the other samples taken it showed that a Greek and Southern European pressence in Egypt was through mixture with the original population,so quite possibly your sample could cluster with the Egyptian sample if the Egyptian sample has some Greek admixture.

''I have several more studies that show the same thing over and over. These people were and are southern Europeans.''

I am sure you do,but like I mentioned before it depends where the samples came from. How many of these samples are from Luxor to Aswan or even from certain Egyptian populations. Why do modern Mtdna show a Sub-Saharan pressence if it never existed in Egypt?

Show me a Southern European with a dolicephallic skull with a protrusive jaw. I can also show you similar studies done by European geneticist that showed a sub-Saharan pressence in Portugal going back to Neolithic times. Show me the Yap + halpotype in Southern European populations that is African specific. This same halpotype occurs 53% of samples in Egyptian samples. Better yet,show me an Southern European with kinky hair.

____read the full abstract please. This is a more up to date study done by Hammer. Egyptians were and are not Southern Europeans.

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
I'll dig up the study, it is the most recent stuff avilable. Give me a day or so...I went through a lot of that type of data back in the fall. If you mean 'dark skinned' I will agree with you, if you mean the negroid race I totally disagree. People in India are directly related to Europeans but they have darker skin because of the climate. This is a hugh distinction...AE is NOT an African civilization, but rather a Med. civilization.

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Indians are a mixture of european/ caucasian and aboriginal "black". There are 3 type of indians in india. The ones that have more european mixture and look almost completely white, Aboriginal "black" which have "negro" features but very straight to wavy hair, and many that lie in between. Most of the aboriginal indians are in the south and are discriminated against just as many upper egyptians are in present day egypt. That climatic adaption non-sense upsets me because it is common sense and actually factual knowledge where the present day indian phenotypes come from. Indians are a mixture of aboriginal "black/negro"- (the term black/negro will offend some) and european nordic.

quote:

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Originally posted by Ozzy:
Think Ill stay away from this one, but to say, a DNA study classifing Southern Europeans as a genetic group? Dont think so!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Lets get a little mopre current. In 1997 Poloni pointed out that Egyptians and a few other African populations (Tunisians, Algerians, and even Ethopians) showed a stronger Y- chromosome similarity to non-African mediterraneans than to the remainder of Africans mostly south of the Sahara.
Guys...the data is overwhelming. The AE's are much closer to southern Europeans than to sub-Saharian Africans. Will we find some African markers, surly, but we are dealing with a Med. civilization with a some African influence instead of the other way around. Take a close look at Ramses and Seti I....negroid...I don't think so.

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See what you refuse to see is that you are comparing AE's to a european population that is already somewhat mixed, then comparing them to african populations that are diverse within themself but have been isolated from other african population. As a scientist this would not be a fair control. This makes the research bias. As I said before southern europeans are mixed with african as well, however they are not black or african. Lets compare AE's to people in England, and other nordic europeans and see how much the match genetically... They won't....So I guess we can use that to say that they weren't "white".

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Keino...we accept that SOME mixing is obvious in these populations...all of the ones you spoke of and in the post before yours. What we are saying and what all of these studies show is that AE's are related much more closely to southern europeans than to African populations. Look at Dr. Hawass for Christ sake...does he look negroid to you? When i go to Cairo or visit Amarna or Thebes I do not feel I am in Kenya. These are not the same people...much closer to the Italians than Africans. These studies I have cited are one thing but beyond that just walk down the street and look around. If Cairo is full of Negroid people I am the Pope. You could probably find some semetic markers in Kenya but it doesn't make them arabs.

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You have to be very careful about how you generalize people. I've never been to Egypt, but I've seen images of Upper Egyptians, and they look nothing like Italians to me. Some of the images are on this board.

As far as other Africans, you must remember that not all Africans look alike. You will find Aficans in West Africa that look nothing like Africans in East Africa or South Africa if you take the time to actually look at them. I've seen no images of Pharaohs like Seti I or Ramses II that show them to be non African, so just looking at images of them, I don't see how people conclude that the weren't African.

Seti:

More Seti. http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo/seti_1.html

Ramses II:

More Ramses: http://www.fruitofthenile.com/ramses.htm

It's possible that these two were non-African, but I don't see how you can come to that conclusion just by looking at depictions of them.

As far as Zahi Hawass and people from Cairo, living in big Egyptian cities today, especially in the North, does not mean that you are descended from the Pharaohs. The population of Egypt, has exploded in modern times, due in large part to an influx of foreigners. These people are not descended from AE's. And no, I'm not saying that being from northern Egypt means that you are not descended from AE's.

[This message has been edited by Kem-Au (edited 23 January 2004).]

Once more I ask where the samples came from. Did any of the samples from the Egyptian saide come from Luxor,Aswan,or Asyut?

''The AE's are much closer to southern Europeans than to sub-Saharian Africans. Will we find some African markers, surly, but we are dealing with a Med. civilization with a some African influence instead of the other way around.''

Well,Yap + is two specific allele found in stritcly African people and in small amounts in Southern Europeans.

''Look at Dr. Hawass for Christ sake...does he look negroid to you? ''

You can't use one Delta Egyptian like Naguib Mafouz or Zahi Hawass to compare to the entire Egyptian population. I have an Egyptian friend from Zagagzig in the North that has dark olive skin with kinky hair.

''Thebes I do not feel I am in Kenya. These are not the same people...much closer to the Italians than Africans''

Thebes is in Luxor,and if you don't think Luxor Egyptians don't look African then you are just simply blind. Look at people from Luxor to Aswan. I have yet to see a Southern European or Greek who looks like the population there.

''If Cairo is full of Negroid people I am the Pope''

Many neighboorhoods in Cairo have many rual Southern Egyptians that come in from the country side. Majority of Cairo is mostly rual Egyptians who come from the Delta. Cairo is a poor example to use for Egyptians as a whole.

Yes, Egyptologists do consider the ethnicity of the Egyptians, but in
a rational way without the flaming that is seen in many postings in this
issue. To the Egyptian who considered any dark complexioned Egyptians
as descendants of Nubians or Sudanese, have you ever travelled from
Luxor to Aswan? There the entire population is dark brown in complexion.
Yet can you write them all off as descendants of Sudanese? Hardly. They
are Egyptians and that they have been that complexion for thousands of
years is demonstrated by New Kingdom paintings of the Theban population,
then just as dark brown as now, for instance, in Sennedjem's tomb at
Deir el-Medinah. So, what we have is a very diverse population in Egypt,
light complexioned in the north, and gradually darkening as you proceed
south. Another myth that needs exploding is that all Copts are light
complexioned. Ever meet a Copt from Luxor or Aswan? They are as brown
as the rest of the population there. I lived three years in Luxor and
have travelled extensively in Egypt, so I speak from experience.
Again, surveying the ancient monuments can be instrutive. So, for
instance, the statue of Sheikh el-Beled, or Ka-Aper, as he was known
anciently, looks exactly like the people of Saqqara today. That's how
he acquired the name "Sheikh el Beled" for those who know the story
of the statue's finding by Mariette's workmen. Another famous excavated
piece is the double statues of Rahotep and Nofret. You can see people
like the facially, all over the Cairo greater area. What differs, is
the color convention that has depicted Nofret as light and Rahotep as
red-brown. Aside from that color convention, if you examine the facial
details of Dynasty IV-V statuary and reliefs, they look very alike
the modern Cairo area population. As Sinuhe, in his story put it,
when a Delta man finds himself in Elephantine, he is confused. The two
extreme parts of Egypt were quite distinct even back in Dynasty 12!
Another of Sinuhe's metaphors is, "can the papyrus ever cleave to the
rock" another contrast of the Delta with Elephantine.

So, Knowing the ancient data from monuments and texts well shows that
the ancient Egyptian peoples were as diverse in complexion as the modern
folk. Basically, they are all Africans, but the great secret is that
Africa has as much diversity as Europe or Asia, in population. So, it
is that you can have a light complexioned Egyptian from the north, but
a thousand miles up the Nile, and you find the Shilluk, Dinka, and
Nuer peoples of Sudan, and no Africans come blacker than they. That is
what the facts are in a brief review, and what Egyptologists consider
on this issue.

Most sincerely,
Frank J. Yurco
University of Chicago

Some points you failed to adress:

1. If Egyptian civlization is Medditerean then why did it originate in Upper Egypt where it is furthest from the Medditerean Sea

2. Ancient Egyptian language is Afro-Asiatic which is found by most linguist to be from the African continent.

3. Why do rual Southern Egyptians have dark brown skin with coarse hair and prognathism[protrusive jaw]

4. The oldest pre-dyanstic burial site in Middle Egypt around Asyut to Luxor is called El-Badari. Why does this place been studied by early anthrop;ologist been found to be mainly negriod

5. Karl Butzer estimated that majority of the Egyptian population in dynastic times originated in Waset[Thebes] to Aswan where even today the average Egyptian there has dark brown skin with coarse hair.

6. The Egyptians show themselves in a different pigment during the New Kingdom from Hau-Nebu[Greek populations],and Kefitu[Cretan populations] Both these populations are authenic Medditerean populations;yet distinguished.

7. Egypt's population up to Mohammed Ali was only about 3 million,but today it is about 70 million

6. Foreign pressence in Lower Egypt is described in various texts like Instructions of Meri-Ka-Re during the First Intermediate period that dates back to 8th dyansty period

7.Nearly all the first Pharoahs of Egypt came from Upper Egypt not Lower Egypt. VI,VII,VII, possibly originated in El Minya. Dyansty 11,12,13,18 all originated in Southern Upper Egypt with strong Nubian affinities. Dyansty 12 originated in Aswan with an Egyptian who had a Nubian mother.

____Frank Joseph Yurco on Rameses and Seti

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:
Can you show me a cultural connection between Southern Europe and Egypt besides the genetic studies. Have you ever read any book on Egyptian archeology during the Pre-dyanstic era? If ancient Egypt is not an African civlization then why do Egyptians speak a language that is related to other parts of Africa? Unless you advocate the Nusratic language family that tries to combine many language families from Indo European to Altaic to Afro-Asiatic into one.

Some points you failed to adress:

1. If Egyptian civlization is Medditerean then why did it originate in Upper Egypt where it is furthest from the Medditerean Sea

2. Ancient Egyptian language is Afro-Asiatic which is found by most linguist to be from the African continent.

3. Why do rual Southern Egyptians have dark brown skin with coarse hair and prognathism[protrusive jaw]

4. The oldest pre-dyanstic burial site in Middle Egypt around Asyut to Luxor is called El-Badari. Why does this place been studied by early anthrop;ologist been found to be mainly negriod

5. Karl Butzer estimated that majority of the Egyptian population in dynastic times originated in Waset[Thebes] to Aswan where even today the average Egyptian there has dark brown skin with coarse hair.

6. The Egyptians show themselves in a different pigment during the New Kingdom from Hau-Nebu[Greek populations],and Kefitu[Cretan populations] Both these populations are authenic Medditerean populations;yet distinguished.

7. Egypt's population up to Mohammed Ali was only about 3 million,but today it is about 70 million

6. Foreign pressence in Lower Egypt is described in various texts like Instructions of Meri-Ka-Re during the First Intermediate period that dates back to 8th dyansty period

7.Nearly all the first Pharoahs of Egypt came from Upper Egypt not Lower Egypt. VI,VII,VII, possibly originated in El Minya. Dyansty 11,12,13,18 all originated in Southern Upper Egypt with strong Nubian affinities. Dyansty 12 originated in Aswan with an Egyptian who had a Nubian mother.

---

Ausar I know why you are so passionate about this topic even thought you try to avoid it as much as possible. It is all common sense especially when you look at the facts. If a forensic scientist was to put together all the facts that you posted and use the skulls that were found around that time, they would come up with exactly what you have been saying all along...wait a minute... they did this with king tut and what they think is nefertiti...and what is the phenotype they came up with? I guess they forsencis that we have today is not accurate and the historical facts that they followed were kinda "afrocentric". I give up on this topic because people will only see what they want to see. I don't know if you guys watch MTV... Coral from the real world New York looks very much like the bust of nefertiti, but she is unmistakenly "Black"... IF they were to make a bust of her I guess people would be calling her white or other as well. Anyway Ausar I feel for you because you know your country and have seen all these facts about the egyptian population but if frustrating because people want to believe what makes them comfortable...

Horemheb , find the report on the net, their is a pdf file which contains the sample areas from which the Egyptian sample was taken. You may understand what Ausar is saying then. I will try to find it, as I can not post the pdf file I was sent. Also check the other african samples, you may be suprised.

Ausar, I also understand you have great feeling for the subject to be seen in context, and this may be the reason you are the first to respond. But my friend, you open the door. Have a look at the new threads! "White Folks egyptian madness"?

A thread on sociology regarding race is threatend with diletion! But this and others are encourage by a responce. I can not say I understand, There is no consistancy.

Again I would suggest a seperate thread, that all such questions can be moved to. I am aware this may be done. It would also give the asker, a background on the subject already discussed, possibly answering the question without yours or our involvement.

Just my humble view.

Im sure all can find links to the main site i fthey wish to read further.

quote:

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Originally posted by Ozzy:

Ausar, I also understand you have great feeling for the subject to be seen in context, and this may be the reason you are the first to respond. But my friend, you open the door. Have a look at the new threads! "White Folks egyptian madness"?

A thread on sociology regarding race is threatend with diletion! But this and others are encourage by a responce. I can not say I understand, There is no consistancy.

Again I would suggest a seperate thread, that all such questions can be moved to. I am aware this may be done. It would also give the asker, a background on the subject already discussed, possibly answering the question without yours or our involvement.

Just my humble view.

Ozzy

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Ozzy,

The sociology post that you mentioned did not reference Egypt at all. I believe that is why ausar mentioned that it could be deleted. The white folks post is focused on AE. Just my .02.

I dont think its consistent Kem, and their are posts tolerated becuase it supports a certain view, and others, are responded to because they do not support a certain view and need to be challenged. I have seen many i would like to challenge.

I have made a great effort to keep my distance from these subjects after the last outcry from members, and I believed I supported argument with good current data. Some have not made the same effort.

At first I did say delete the Sociology thread;however I kept the Sociology thread open so many people can comment. So nothing was stoping people from comminiting on the thread.

The problem I feel is that many people don't really embrace Egypt for being such a diverse place that Egypt truely is . People have this false romantic idealism of Egyptian soceity to the point they feel the need to connect themselves to the culture reguardless if they are related or not. I have posted countless of topics that make no specific reference to ethnicity of the Egyptians,but very few people bother to look at or post comments on these threads. Believe me,I am as sick of the race threads as you are but I have no power to stop people from posting these comments.

The equal representation of Egyptian ethnicity is a concern of mine since I am Egyptian. To aknowleadge the diversity of Egyptians is my main goal while showing the continuity of their ancient culture is another mission of mine. This is why I feel so deeply about this issue. My posts are not inteneded to hurt noone or any race or ethnicity. If I have offened you or anybody I apologize for this is not my purpose.

As i said i have no problem with the debate, as long as it is debated,and backed by acceptable data, and not attached to the two sides i mentioned in the other post I possibly should not have posted.

I did some research some time ago during the last debate, and found that when this forum was created it was done so to divert this very subjects away from the other forums. So its not a suprise to those who were there when that happend that the subject pops up. That covers, it seems a number of the most frequent posters here now who were involved in the subject then.

I feel we have three/four options.

1, Open season in all threads
2, Obstain from responding or censor.
3, Give it a place to live.
4 All of the above.

Looking at the paintings and sculptures of ancient Egypt by region, you get the impression that Upper Egyptians were for the most part, always dark brown people, much like Sudenese and Ethiopians, while Lower Egyptians varied from medium brown to olive color.