The dude is a complete nutcase if he thinks "Sub-Saharans" Africans in North Africans were all slaves, the data and researches prove that to be false, the desert wasn't a barrier for African groups, they traveled to and from North Africa over the generations before slavery was even a concept.
Anyone that thinks otherwise is an idiotic anti-black fool.
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So-Called "Sub-Saharan" Africans migrating past the "Sahara" is literally the catalyst to ALL HUMANS outside of Africa existing in the first place.
Pure "Tardedness" on his part.
Correct, and the research proves that to be the truth -
quote:The presence of sub-Saharan L-type mtDNA sequences in North Africa has traditionally been explained by the recent slave trade. However, gene flow between sub-Saharan and northern African populations would also have been made possible earlier through the greening of the Sahara resulting from Early Holocene climatic improvement. In this article, we examine human dispersals across the Sahara through the analysis of the sub-Saharan mtDNA haplogroup L3e5, which is not only commonly found in the Lake Chad Basin (~17%), but which also attains non-negligible frequencies (-10%) in some Northwestern African populations. Age estimates point to its origin ~10 ka, probably directly in the Lake Chad Basin, where the clade occurs across linguistic boundaries. The virtual absence of this specific haplogroup in Daza from Northern Chad and all West African populations suggests that its migration took place elsewhere, perhaps through Northern Niger. Interestingly, independent confirmation of Early Holocene contacts between North Africa and the Lake Chad Basin have been provided by craniofacial data from Central Niger, supporting our suggestion that the Early Holocene offered a suitable climatic window for genetic exchanges between North and sub-Saharan Africa. In view of its younger founder age in North Africa, the discontinuous distribution of L3e5 was probably caused by the Middle Holocene re-expansion of the Sahara desert, disrupting the clade's original continuous spread.
---Eliška Podgorná et al. Annals of Human Genetics Volume 77, Issue 6, pages 513-523, November 2013
Then you have the Tubou people's that have lived in central/north/northeast for centuries, traveling throughout the Sahara for close to 5,0000 or 6,000 years and or more.
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He's basically arguing against facts to appease his "Anti-Black" ideology.
It's dogmatic, not rational, and "Tarded"
Don't forget the Chadians as well. But in the end - for ppl like Antalas the facts don't matter, even basic human history is an obstacle for folks like him. It's all a bunch of garbage if it doesn't scream "no, no, no... no blacks here".
Posts: 45 | From: U.S | Registered: Nov 2021
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Right, it really is sad, some form of mental illness.
"Anti-Black" dogma is a roadblock to actual intelligent discourse on African history.
The Sahara wasn't always a desert, as we all know. Mega Lake Chad also provided avenues of migration for "Sub-Saharan" Africans.
Not to mention, after the Sahara became desert, Africans "south of the Sahara" still migrated on their own terms, within and outside Africa.
Posts: 115 | From: usa | Registered: Feb 2020
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Right, it really is sad, some form of mental illness.
"Anti-Black" dogma is a roadblock to actual intelligent discourse on African history.
The Sahara wasn't always a desert, as we all know. Mega Lake Chad also provided avenues of migration for "Sub-Saharan" Africans.
Not to mention, after the Sahara became desert, Africans "south of the Sahara" still migrated on their own terms, within and outside Africa.
Exactly, those groups would spread out in 4 to 5 different directions as the green turned into sand - some would go to the Moroccan/Mauritania region, others would find themselves in Chad and then into the Nile Valley, and another group would find themselves in what's now called Libya, etc.
Shoot, there's a whole canoe that dates back 8,500 years in Nigeria and who knows what else could be found. And to my knowledge, there are no giant lakes or rivers in that region. In modern times.
I'm sure some tried to weather the sandstorm and paid the price for not leaving, as we can see with some of the human remains (Kiffians) that can be found.
So, it can only be a generational mental illness for these people and that's why they can't stop themselves. They've done it with everything in Africa besides Egypt, always shocked that "blacks" could build walls of stone or intricate structures.
The lengths with which certain types of people refuse to acknowledge the truth, isn't surprising though, it's beyond pathetic.
"Anti-Blacks" dogmatically believe that anyone with a "Black" phenotype is "Inferior/Subservient" by default.
The "Self Esteem" of the "Anti-Black" is contingent on the "Blacks Inferiority".
This is part of the reason they troll online where "Blacks" congregate.
The get an "Ego Boost" letting the "Blacks Know their Place".
When confronted with data that contradicts their bias/dogma they dismiss it and seek out sources that "confirm" their ideology.
As you said "Nutcase" behavior.
This is also why they reject data/info that comes from "Black" sources, because in their "Brains", it is "incorrect/inferior" due the the "Black person's Phenotype.
All the actual data we have shows that there were full-fledged "Black" Egyptians and North Africans.
To deny this to soothe ones ego/esteem is "Tarded"
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"Anti-Blacks" dogmatically believe that anyone with a "Black" phenotype is "Inferior/Subservient" by default.
The "Self Esteem" of the "Anti-Black" is contingent on the "Blacks Inferiority".
This is part of the reason they troll online where "Blacks" congregate.
The get an "Ego Boost" letting the "Blacks Know their Place".
When confronted with data that contradicts their bias/dogma they dismiss it and seek out sources that "confirm" their ideology.
As you said "Nutcase" behavior.
This is also why they reject data/info that comes from "Black" sources, because in their "Brains", it is "incorrect/inferior" due the the "Black person's Phenotype.
All the actual data we have shows that there were full-fledged "Black" Egyptians and North Africans.
To deny this to soothe ones ego/esteem is "Tarded"
It's why, debating them is pointless because they always showcase their real agenda. Despite their very exist on this earth, descending from Africans with black skin, that they love to deny and only admitting to them being around in different regions. Under the pretense of slavery or some other nonsense. I mean they can continue to ignore it and dismiss black scholars or all the non-black scholars that are finally telling the truth. But it's an issue that they will have to come to terms with, after bullsh*tting everyone in the field for close to a 100 year's. It's the giant hole that they dug for themselves and now they are having trouble keeping up with their own lies, and have resorted to putting out ridiculous 'research" based conclusions with sensualist titles that claim that anyone "black" in Egypt in Roman times was from slavery. lol
I always have to wonder - for such a superior group of people, they sure like to lie, project and make up a lot of bs to get ahead. And for every claim of "Afrocentrics" trying to distort history or the heritage of a civilization. There's thousands upon thousands of examples of the "No Black" contingent that has been doing much, much, much worse for generations and making careers out of it. Until their racist past is dug up, and their biases are laid bare, time, and time again.
A true disease of the mind is what they carry, the "anti-black" pathogen and it has spread to plenty of others in the human racialized paradigm.
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Yeah they have been lying about Egypt and Africa in general for over 200 years.
The discussion/debate of the "Blackness" of the Egyptians is over 200 years in the "Western World".
With the main opposition being that "People With Black Phenotypes are Inferior", so they "invented" the "Black Whites/Hamites".
The EXACT same "Hamitic Myth" that allowed/justified the enslavement of Africans, became the tool they used to "Remove Blackness" from the Egyptians.
Literally "Europeans" and Arabs alike both used the Hamitic myth to justify enslaving Africans.
But once the glory of Egypt finally became known, then the "Hamites" had to become "White", "Dark White", "Black Caucasians" and a bunch of other foolishness.
Since a "Lie Births More Lies", they have to keep lying about the origin, and nature of the Egyptians and Africans in general.
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The same Hamitic myth that has led to millions of deaths and civil wars in Africa. And now we are back to the "Dark skinned Cacuasian" garbage. So, they've come full circle. It's to the point where I doubt even footage from Ancient Kemet itself dating - back 4,000 to 5,000 years ago, would convince them. That's how far gone they are in regards to this subject.
But this is why they've been keeping black people (and others) out of their inner circles. So they can't upend all their tainted work in distorting the reality of the situation. And that has led us to this point of having to deal with the ignorant offspring of an extremely misinformed population, specifically with Europeans and Arabs or whatever mix of those groups in between.
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The Hypocrisy of it all is that they claim that Horn Africans are "Hamites", and Ancient Egyptians were "Hamites".
Yet in every illustration, historical reenactment, documentary, fantasy movie about Ancient Egypt, they don't use "Hamites", but "Whites in Dark Makeup".
If they actually believed that the Egyptians were "Hamites" and Horn Africans are "Hamites", the logical conclusion is: To use Horn Africans primarily in illustrations, Cartoons, Movies, Documentaries etc.. As Proxies for the Egyptians.
They don't do this because... Horn Africans are "Black Africans".
Using them for depictions of Egyptians leads to the ultimate conclusion:
"The Egyptians Were Black Africans".
The "Hamitic" label is just "Lip-Service" and a tool to divide Africans, and nothing more.
Posts: 115 | From: usa | Registered: Feb 2020
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The same Hamitic myth that has led to millions of deaths and civil wars in Africa. And now we are back to the "Dark skinned Cacuasian" garbage. So, they've come full circle. It's to the point where I doubt even footage from Ancient Kemet itself dating - back 4,000 to 5,000 years ago, would convince them. That's how far gone they are in regards to this subject.
But this is why they've been keeping black people (and others) out their inner circles. So they can't upend all their tainted work in distorting the reality of the situation. And that has led us to this point of having to deal with the ignorant offspring of an extremely misinformed population, specifically with Europeans and Arabs or whatever mix of those groups in between.
At this point I think it will not even matter if it turns out that Eurasian-like ancestry in ancient Africans is African in origin or descended from Ancestral North African (ANA). They will try to rename N. Africa as part of Eurasia in trying to fulfill their new genetic-based Hamitic hypothesis.
Posts: 288 | From: Asia | Registered: Mar 2016
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The same Hamitic myth that has led to millions of deaths and civil wars in Africa. And now we are back to the "Dark skinned Cacuasian" garbage. So, they've come full circle. It's to the point where I doubt even footage from Ancient Kemet itself dating - back 4,000 to 5,000 years ago, would convince them. That's how far gone they are in regards to this subject.
But this is why they've been keeping black people (and others) out their inner circles. So they can't upend all their tainted work in distorting the reality of the situation. And that has led us to this point of having to deal with the ignorant offspring of an extremely misinformed population, specifically with Europeans and Arabs or whatever mix of those groups in between.
At this point I think it will not even matter if it turns out that Eurasian-like ancestry in ancient Africans is African in origin or descended from Ancestral North African (ANA). They will try to rename N. Africa as part of Eurasia in trying to fulfill their new genetic-based Hamitic hypothesis.
If that were to happen, it would be the height of their evil. I'd dare them to justify it.
quote:Originally posted by Ty Daniels: @TubuYal23
Exactly!!
The Hypocrisy of it all is that they claim that Horn Africans are "Hamites", and Ancient Egyptians were "Hamites".
Yet in every illustration, historical reenactment, documentary, fantasy movie about Ancient Egypt, they don't use "Hamites", but "Whites in Dark Makeup".
If they actually believed that the Egyptians were "Hamites" and Horn Africans are "Hamites", the logical conclusion is: To use Horn Africans primarily in illustrations, Cartoons, Movies, Documentaries etc.. As Proxies for the Egyptians.
They don't do this because... Horn Africans are "Black Africans".
Using them for depictions of Egyptians leads to the ultimate conclusion:
"The Egyptians Were Black Africans".
The "Hamitic" label is just "Lip-Service" and a tool to divide Africans, and nothing more.
You put it perfectly, to be honest. All that lip-service and confusion, but they never use Horn Africans in any of their depictions of so called 'Eurasians" North Africans or Anicent Egyptians.
Posts: 45 | From: U.S | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Haplogroup U5 has its highest frequency in the Maghreb
No, that's U6 highest frequency in the Maghreb but highest diversity on the Iberian peninsula, (10 out of 19 sublineages are only found there)
U5a and U5b today form the highest population concentrations in the far north, among Sami, Finns, and Estonians.
Yes, I made a typo. My main point is that U6 was said to originate in the 'Near East' which is said to be the origin of the U clade, but U is a subclade of R which either originated in Arabia if not Africa.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: "very dark skin" is induced by high level of SSA therefore can't be native to our mediterranean area.
No. Very dark skin is induced by high level of MELANIN and has nothing to do with SSA ancestry. There are Australian Aborigines and Indians who have very dark skin i.e. black but have no recent African ancestry Sub-Saharan or otherwise. The Abusir study shows the Egyptians to have nil SSA ancestry yet histological studies of their mummies show they had skin "packed with melanin" comparable to "negroids". So stop with the Sub-Saharan excuse. Egyptians were still AFRICAN as North Africans and Sub-Saharans are still related.
quote:The berber genetic profile is mostly defined by EEF, IBM and natufian or steppe ancestry therefore "very dark skin" can't be regarded as indigenous berber trait. Many north africans today have black slave ancestry which can produce dark types but still they aren't perceive as black by their fellow countrymen.
That depends on which Berber tribe and which clan or family. Berbers on the coast have high European admixture. Berbers in the Sahara may have some Arab admixture but most don't. The Kel Tamashek (Tuareg) for example have very little Arab admixture but also very little Sub-Saharan admixture as well. Not only are the Tuareg matrilineal but they have a strict caste system with noble clans only marrying from other noble clans and many of those clans still have very dark skin. Europeans from Medieval times have described the Moors of the coast as black people to the point of wearing black-face when portraying Moors.
quote:Here a quick example so you understand : Obvious recent SSA ancestry but not seen as black by north africans or europeans :
Irrelevant.
Here is a Baladi man from Luxor
This man would obviously be considered 'black' in Europe and he is also considered such by the Arab and other lighter-skinned Egyptians who discriminate against Baladi like him.
quote:And Greeks/Romans didn't really call egyptians "black" or else they would have considered them "aethiopians". "Black" in some context simply meant dark/swarthy which is kind of obvious when you compare an average egyptian to greeks or italians.
That's a lie. The Greek word for black is "melanos" or "melanchroe". The Latin word for black is "niger" and sometimes they used the label "Maur" which likely comes from the name of a native tribe but was applied to all black natives. "Aethiopian" is actually an unknown foreign term that was adopted by the Greeks. The Greeks don't even know what the original meaning of the word was, but simply transliterate the term to mean "burnt face" in their language. The funny thing is that the first people the Greeks called "Aethiopian" were peoples in the West Asia, like the people of Joppa like Princess Andromeda which was likely in Phoenicia, and the people of Memnon further east either in Babylon or Elam! LOL
quote:People who knew them well could easily make the difference :
quote: As for the people of India, those in the south are like the Aethiopians in color, although they are like the rest in respect to countenance and hair (for on account of the humidity of the air their hair does not curl), whereas those in the north are like the Egyptians.
Strabo, Geography 15.1.13
Also don't bring herodotus pls this has been debunked again and again.
Nobody is denying that there are differences in complexion between Africans who are still considered 'black' varied in shade. In fact Strabo's description is later echoed by the Roman poet Marcus Manilius who goes as far as to list black peoples by geography and shade from darkest to lightest as well as white peoples by geography and shade from lightest to darkest until they meet in the Meditrranean zone. So yes, while the Greeks and Romans did compare the complexions of Egyptians to northern Indians, they still considered both peoples as black since North Indians especially in ancient times were not exactly the 'fair and lovely' types you see in Bollywood! LOL All of this is shown here. And no, not everything Herodotus wrote was debunked as explained here.
So again, all of your arguments were debunked years ago in this forum. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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TubuYal23, could you and Antalas take your arguments somewhere else?! I for one am done with the loser but if you want to argue about Egyptians' black identity then please do so somewhere else preferably in the Deshret section of the forum. I would like to get back on track with actual Egyptology and specifically the ethnic identity of the Copts and NOT about their color!
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Now getting back to the topic of the Copts..
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Famile Copte (Coptic Family) Autour du monde, aquarelles, souvenirs de voyages, fascicules i à xii. (1890s)
Figure 2: Coptic scribe, late 19th century, photographer unidentified collections of Paul Frecker, British 19th century photography dealer based in London. Notice the white turban which Copts only started wearing after 1856, when the old Islamic injunction to confine Copts to wear only black or dark turbans, to distinguish them from Muslims, was revoked after intervention from the European Powers.
“Coptic priest.” I, however, doubt this. I would say this is a Coptic deacon, and perhaps was being trained under his father to become priest. The Coptic Church does not ordain a man priest until he reaches the age of 30 years. Priesthood often ran in families and a son follows a father at the same church. The photographer unidentified at or around 1869
According to a recent genomic analysis of modern Egyptians by National Geographic, modern Egyptians are 68% North African and 17% Arab along with admixture from other ancestries, though I believe the study is based on autosomal DNA.
Of course the study includes all modern Egyptians both Copt and Muslim. But if you add the 3% East African ancestry, then that gives us a total of 71% African ancestry.
Recall the autosomal comparison of the Abusir Mummies with modern Egyptians:
* ANA (Ancient North African) ancestry appears to be most heavily concentrated in Northeast African populations, although West and Central Africans, as well as ancient Maghrebis, have some ANA as well. * Various ancient populations in West Eurasia have small but significant ANA ancestry components as well. Minoans actually have a rather large chunk of it as far as EEF-descended populations go. * The Abusir el Meleq mummies have less ANA than modern Egyptians (either Coptic or Muslim). The former have approximately as much ANA as Natufians. Make of that what you will.
So modern Egyptians not only possess more SSA ancetry than the ancient (at least Abusir samples) but also ANA ancestry as well. What does this mean?
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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^ Thank you Elmaestro. Really these age old squabbles about the 'black' identity of Egyptians has been addressed far too many times in this forum for well over a decade that all one has to do look in the archives as I told Antalas and others. I say take that mess to Deshret where it belongs.
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Baalberith
Ungodly and Satanic Entity
Member # 23079
quote:They literally lived in the Sahara and used to enslave aethiopians (especially "troglodyte aethiopians") no surprise they became darker. Even a ancient african poet (Luxorius) actually criticized their dark skin :
The aesthetic prejudice appears with much clearness, at the end of the ancient period it is true, in Luxorius, African poet exerting at the court of the Vandal kings, at the beginning of the VIth century AD. He opposes, in one of his poems, to the pretty pontic girl, who symbolizes the Nordic woman, a garamante ugly girl (foeda), symbolizing if not the Ethiopian woman, at least the southern type the most distant from the Nordic type
Wouldn't he just be appealing to the Vandals racial superiority complex as oppose to actually "criticizing" Garamante women's Black/dark complexion? Especially during Vandal rule, anti-Black references were prevalent at the time.
quote:a form of racial profiling and racist thinking expressed through skin colour prejudices against black peoples emerges in Latin satiric epigrams from the Anthologia Latina as the power centre shifts between white, ‘neutral‐coloured,’ and black ethnic communities.
quote:Luxorius' accentuation of Garamantian blackness with local colour and venom, like epigram 1a, suggests that his recondite appeal to pontic whiteness reflects Vandal heritage.
quote:For Luxorius' audience of Vandal kings and Roman-African dignitaries, the Pontica/Garamas dichotomy succinctly localizes the Scythian/Ethiopian ethnographic axis as it idealizes the 'Nordic' beauty of white Germanic, Vandal women (Desanges 1976: 312 n. 148; Thompsom 1989: n. 63).
quote:One such inscription from the Palermo Stone records the acquisition of some 7000 male and female slaves from the “Land of the Blacks” along with some 20,000 herd animals including cattle, sheep, and goats and what appears to have been 40 ships laden with cedar, along with other raw materials.
Now this is just a bogus mistranslation. There's no way that a Pharaoh would have designated their southern neighbor as "the land of the Blacks", especially from the fourth dynasty and you want to know why, because there's was a similar mistranslation by the 12th Dynasty Egyptian pharaoh Sesostris III where he said that he was ridiculing the "Blacks" when actuality it just a mistranslation by these racialist Egyptologists. The word that was used was "Nehesu", "Nubian" not "Black". see here for more about the word's misusage:
Luckily I was able to find an old thread that address this very mistranslation and guess what it was a mistranslation, just as I thought!
Then this shill quotes from Budge: Page 51 "Raid in the Land of the Blacks (i.e. the Sudan)" --Now, the only way one can say "Land of the Blacks" in Ancient Egyptian would be to say Ta ni Kememou, which we know refers to Ancient Egypt itself.
--What Budge probably did, and I would bet on it was to transliterate the text which probably read something like "Ta Nahasou", which has NO color connotation whatsoever, into "Land of the Blacks"; Which should have accurately been rendered "Land of the Sudanese"
c) Any further reading of Budges document quoted here which began this topic, the word "Blacks" should be replaced by "Sudanese"; Any Egyptologist would agree with me on this point.
quote:One such inscription from the Palermo Stone records the acquisition of some 7000 male and female slaves from the “Land of the Blacks” along with some 20,000 herd animals including cattle, sheep, and goats and what appears to have been 40 ships laden with cedar, along with other raw materials.
Now this is just a bogus mistranslation. There's no way that a Pharaoh would have designated their southern neighbor as "the land of the Blacks", especially from the fourth dynasty and you want to know why, because there's was a similar mistranslation by the 12th Dynasty Egyptian pharaoh Sesostris III where he said that he was ridiculing the "Blacks" when actuality it just a mistranslation by these racialist Egyptologists. The word that was used was "Nehesu", "Nubian" not "Black". see here for more about the word's misusage:
Luckily I was able to find an old thread that address this very mistranslation and guess what it was a mistranslation, just as I thought!
Then this shill quotes from Budge: Page 51 "Raid in the Land of the Blacks (i.e. the Sudan)" --Now, the only way one can say "Land of the Blacks" in Ancient Egyptian would be to say Ta ni Kememou, which we know refers to Ancient Egypt itself.
--What Budge probably did, and I would bet on it was to transliterate the text which probably read something like "Ta Nahasou", which has NO color connotation whatsoever, into "Land of the Blacks"; Which should have accurately been rendered "Land of the Sudanese"
c) Any further reading of Budges document quoted here which began this topic, the word "Blacks" should be replaced by "Sudanese"; Any Egyptologist would agree with me on this point.
Very interesting, and it's clear that there's a bunch of assuming in regards to a sitting Pharaoh, meant by his words. He, certainly, wasn't talking in racialized modern terms and any Egyptologist or person thinks that he was, is purely delusional. This is like mis-translating, Latin text, when they start referring to the Greeks or their neighbors.
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SO FAR ONLY 13 INANE OR OFF TOPIC POSTS WERE REMOVED.
SADLY THE MAJORITY OF THESE LAST TWO PAGES WERE FAR BEING THE INTENDED SCOPE OF THE TOPIC. NEARLY 60 OR SO WORTHY OF DELETION. TYPICALLY (AND ON MOST OTHER FORUMS) THIS WOULD RESULT IN THE THREAD BEING CLOSED. IF THE INITIAL TOPIC IS EXHAUSTED AT THIS POINT THIS THREAD WILL BE CLOSED.
DUE TO THE ACTUAL ORIGINAL POSTER NOT BEING ACTIVE I'LL DIFFER TO THE PERSON WHO BUMPED THE THREAD (DJEHUTI) ON THIS MATTER.
////MODPosts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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Do I have to hand out suspensions during Thanksgiving? Again, like @Elmaestro said, stay on topic.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
The chair! Give em THE CHAIR!! Charbroil the bass tur...
Please delete Smith & Cross in the egg nog Askia That ol devil rumbullion is to blame for my ill attempt at 90s humour.
Have a lil Thanksgiving mercy on their blanched souls Askia kindly direct them to other threads or to make new threads? I learned a lot from Ty and Tuval about stuff 'I already knew'. I mean Hachid is like one of the top three aMazigh specialist ranked/noted by multidisciplinarians and respected by AmazighWorld.org too. Wouldn't happened without Aunt Alice, er, Antalas.
Maybe he not one of them but we get intelligent iMazighen once in a while and have even turned some open minds to raw data facts and less 16th-20th century type interpretations of less but still 'qualifyable' finds.
Abstract The study of genetic correlation between ethnic groups, constituting one nation, is an important issue. This work aims to study the correlation between allele frequencies of nine Short Tandem Repeats (STRs) autosomal loci (D3S1358, VWA, FGA, THO1, TPOX, CSF1PO, D5S818, D13S317, and D7S820) for the main two Egyptian ethnic groups, Muslims and Christians, in order to test the hypothesis of a common ancestral for the whole Egyptian population. Each group is represented by a sample of 100 unrelated healthy individuals. The genetic correlation of the two ethnic groups is investigated using alleles' frequencies statistics, forensic efficiency parameters and populations' homogeneity charts. Graphical methods were used to check the harmony between the two ethnic groups. The results support that Egyptian Muslims and Egyptian Christians genetically originate from the same ancestors.Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Abstract The study of genetic correlation between ethnic groups, constituting one nation, is an important issue. This work aims to study the correlation between allele frequencies of nine Short Tandem Repeats (STRs) autosomal loci (D3S1358, VWA, FGA, THO1, TPOX, CSF1PO, D5S818, D13S317, and D7S820) for the main two Egyptian ethnic groups, Muslims and Christians, in order to test the hypothesis of a common ancestral for the whole Egyptian population. Each group is represented by a sample of 100 unrelated healthy individuals. The genetic correlation of the two ethnic groups is investigated using alleles' frequencies statistics, forensic efficiency parameters and populations' homogeneity charts. Graphical methods were used to check the harmony between the two ethnic groups. The results support that Egyptian Muslims and Egyptian Christians genetically originate from the same ancestors.
Okay this confirms what everyone suspects but then what exactly are the differences between Muslims and Copts?? I suspect the main differences to be on the paternal side since ever since the Islamic conquest there has been a tradition of Muslim men kidnapping and/or forcing Coptic women into marriage.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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The 2004 Luis, Underhill, et ales. study shows modern Egyptians at least from the Cairo area to rougly possess 46.3% African paternal lineages (A, E3b, & E3a)
According to a recent genomic analysis of modern Egyptians by National Geographic, modern Egyptians are 68% North African and 17% Arab along with admixture from other ancestries, though I believe the study is based on autosomal DNA.
Of course the study includes all modern Egyptians both Copt and Muslim. But if you add the 3% East African ancestry, then that gives us a total of 71% African ancestry.
Recall the autosomal comparison of the Abusir Mummies with modern Egyptians:
* ANA (Ancient North African) ancestry appears to be most heavily concentrated in Northeast African populations, although West and Central Africans, as well as ancient Maghrebis, have some ANA as well. * Various ancient populations in West Eurasia have small but significant ANA ancestry components as well. Minoans actually have a rather large chunk of it as far as EEF-descended populations go. * The Abusir el Meleq mummies have less ANA than modern Egyptians (either Coptic or Muslim). The former have approximately as much ANA as Natufians. Make of that what you will.
So modern Egyptians not only possess more SSA ancetry than the ancient (at least Abusir samples) but also ANA ancestry as well. What does this mean?
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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^ You can add the genetic data with what available data we have on skelatal features of Medieval and Modern Egyptians which isn't much. The material below is what I've been able to scrape in such short notice:
Ahmad Batrawi, (1945) "The Racial History of Egypt and Nubia", The Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute
Since early neolithic times there existed two distinct but closely related types, a northern in Lower Egypt and a southern in Upper Egypt. The southern Egyptians were distinguished from the northerners by a smaller cranial index, a larger nasal index and greater prognathism. The geographical distinction between the two groups continued during the Pre-Dynastic Period. The Upper Egyptians, however, spread into lower Nubia during that period. By the beginning of the Dynastic era the northern Egyptian type is encountered for the first time in the Thebaïd, i.e., in the southern territory. The incursion, however, seems to have been transitory and the effects of the co-existence of the two types in one locality remained very transient until the 18th Dynasty. From this time onwards the northern type prevailed all over Egypt, as far south as Denderah, till the end of the Roman period. In Lower Nubia a slight infiltration of negroid influence is observed during the Middle Kingdom times. In the New Empire period, however, the southern Egyptian type prevails again. After the New Empire a fresh and much stronger negro influence becomes discernable till the end of the Roman period.
There is a wide gap in our knowledge of the racial history of the two countries during the Christian and Islamic periods, owing to the lack of an adequate amount of relevant material. The study of the available measurements of the living, however, apparently suggests that the modern population all over Egypt conforms more closely to the southern type. The mean measurements for the modern Nubians are rather curious. The average cephalic index for them is significantly larger than that for the Egyptians. This is contrary to expectation based on knowledge of the characteristics of the ancient populations. No satisfactory explanation could be suggested.
The distribution of blood groups in present-day Egypt shows that the mass of population is very homogeneous and there are no significant differences, in this respect, between the Moslems and the Copts. Comparisons of head and body measurements suggest the same conclusion.
Then there's Observations on Egyptian Ethnography Derived from Anatomy, History, and the Monuments by Samuel George Morton (1848)[scroll down to page 147 for his observation on the Copts]. I know, not only is this a very old piece of work but the author Morton is an overt racist however this does not invalidate his overall observations that modern Copts show more "negroid" features than dynastic Egyptians to which he considers the Coptic people by and large a "mulatto race".
Morton's successor Carlton Coon (another racist) makes a similar conclusion in his 1965 work Races of Man in his section on 'Races of Africa': The Egyptians When the invading Arabs reached the Nile Valley, some stayed in the cities, but most of them moved on, because the country was already densely populated, and with more than one kind of people. Since predynastic times, various invaders had settled in the Delta and on the banks of the Nile. And after the Arabs had come and gone, the Turks took over, bringing with them Caucasians, Albanians, and other fellow Muslims.
It is the fellahin and the Copts who most faithfully represent in a physical sense their already mixed ancestors, the Ancient Egyptians. They are people of medium stature and physique, brown-skinned, most of them with curly hair, with brown eyes except that 10 percent have mixed or light-colored eyes. They have straight nasal profiles, nasal tips of medium size, lips of medium thickness, and moderate beard development. They look like what they are – the product of an ancient blend of Europid and indigenous African elements, reinforced from time to time by Europid elements from Europe and Western Asia, and African elements from the Sudan.
Finally, I have the 1972 paper from M. F. Gaballah , El-Rakhawy & El-Eishi On the Craniological Study of Egyptians in Various Periods: The post- Roman period The post-Roman period, due to marked paucity of relevant material, is considered to be a gap in the knowledge about the physical history of Egypt (Morant, 1925 and Batrawi, 1946). A single sample of the early Christian period (4th—7th A. D.) was excavated from a cemetery near Magageh (Middle Egypt) and investigated by Munter. Out of the 78 skulls brought, 14 were found of young age and hence excluded, while the remaining 64 were treated as one group without sex separation. Morant (1928), however, sexed this material and found that 38 skull were males. These data (computed by Morant) were investigated by Batrawi (1946), using the reduced C. R. L. and were found to show no relation to any of the available Egyptian series. Accordingly, he suggested that this ancient Coptic group may be "a local community of alien origin". From the modern times only three series were recorded. Myers (1905), quoted by Batrawi (1946), studied 47 skulls said to be from Cairo, but due to their marked heterogeneity (the standard deviation of skull length is 8.02, these materials were considered unreliable for comparative purposes). The second modern cranial sample (60 males and 27 females) was collected by Mook from a cemetery near Cairo. The skulls were measured by E. Schmidt, their means were reduced by Alice Lee and then used by Fawcett (1902) for comparison with the predynastic material from Naqada. The material was described "to be almost certainly Copts". The third sample of modern skulls was examined by Sidney Smith (1926) during his work as an expert in the Forensic Department at Cairo. He studied 58 male skulls of both Moslems and Copts, 20 of them were said to be those of criminals, while the other 30 were brought out from a modern coptic cemetery. He pointed out that the modern Egyptian skull is characterized by having a markedly high and narrow calvaria with a very low acroplatic index (100 B-H'/L). The face is more Negroid and accordingly, he stated that the modern Egyptians are more similar to the predynastic than to the dynastic populations. S. Smith was of the opinion that this reversion of type towards that of the prehistoric times was due to progressive elimination of alien racial elements suggested to have been introduced into Egypt during the dynastic period. His c}ata were also analysed by Batrawi (1946) by the use of the reduced C.R.L. They were found to be closely related to those data of the early dynastic (private tombs, Abydos), middle dynastic (Koubanieh North) and middle predynastic series (Naqada A & Q). It is clear from the foregoing, that the post-Roman period was scarcely investigated and our knowledge about the racial history of Egypt during the last fourteen centuries is nearly lacking. Only one group was examined from the ancient Coptic period, practically no material was obtained from the early Islamic period and a few cranial samples were studied from the modern times.
So I take it Gaballah and them are suggesting some sort of reversion back to the Badarian type(?)
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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^ What other Egyptian mummies were DNA tested and their results published? As I understand it, multiple mummies from as early as the Old Kingdom were tested since the 90s but their results were not released to the public. Why is that?
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ What other Egyptian mummies were DNA tested and their results published? As I understand it, multiple mummies from as early as the Old Kingdom were tested since the 90s but their results were not released to the public. Why is that?
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ What other Egyptian mummies were DNA tested and their results published? As I understand it, multiple mummies from as early as the Old Kingdom were tested since the 90s but their results were not released to the public. Why is that?
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ What other Egyptian mummies were DNA tested and their results published? As I understand it, multiple mummies from as early as the Old Kingdom were tested since the 90s but their results were not released to the public. Why is that?
Fourteen mummies, New Kingdom & Middle Kingdom, none of the DNA classified as "North African"
total 11 mummies New Kingdom 4 Abusir el-Meleq, 6 Amarna, 2 Rameses and son
Three Middle Kingdom males but mtDNA only 2 Nakht-Ankh, Khnum-Nakht (brothers 12th dyn) 1 Djehutynakht (11th or 12th dyn)
Contents 1 Ancient DNA
1.1 2017 DNA study 1.2 2018 Nakht-Ankh and Khnum-Nakht 1.3 2018 mitochondrial DNA of Djehutynakht 1.4 2012, Ramesses III 1.5 2020 Tutankhamun and other mummies of the 18th Dynasty 1.6 2020 Paleogenetic Study of Ancient Mummies at the Kurchatov Institute
_____________________________________
The 4 Abusir New Kingdom (above table of contents as "2017 DNA study" all 4 mtDNA only, these are not the 3 tested for full genome
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
^ What type(s) of genetic/genomic ancestry? Cerny started out honest a decade ago, I still trust him.
=-=-=-=
And just what is ANA? I honestly have no idea. Is it found in samples ancient or modern or is it just a made up statistical artifact? Not that that would necessarily make it invalid.
But do I recall Beduin and Natufi stats showing no Africa ancestry whereas their tangible physical remains data sniffed it out.
So if ANA is stats you all can have it, but please gimme the primer on it anyway, thanks tL and all. In fact I'd like all ANA 'advocates' to seperately and w/o collusion, post their understanding of it Monday at 6PM EST if at all possible.
Abstract The study of genetic correlation between ethnic groups, constituting one nation, is an important issue. This work aims to study the correlation between allele frequencies of nine Short Tandem Repeats (STRs) autosomal loci (D3S1358, VWA, FGA, THO1, TPOX, CSF1PO, D5S818, D13S317, and D7S820) for the main two Egyptian ethnic groups, Muslims and Christians, in order to test the hypothesis of a common ancestral for the whole Egyptian population. Each group is represented by a sample of 100 unrelated healthy individuals. The genetic correlation of the two ethnic groups is investigated using alleles' frequencies statistics, forensic efficiency parameters and populations' homogeneity charts. Graphical methods were used to check the harmony between the two ethnic groups. The results support that Egyptian Muslims and Egyptian Christians genetically originate from the same ancestors.
I like it when scientists findings fit history now enough of this (religious) Copts are Greeks or Judaeans when the word's usage was simply E g-y-p-t and Q-i-b-t applied to all native Egyptians "pure" or "admixed".
^ According to the above Sudanese Copts have slightly more Middle Eastern ancestry and no West African ancestry in contrast to the Egyptians who also have more European ancestry.
Compare with these admixture charts from other studies:
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Iberia (IBS), Great Britain (GBR), Tuscany (TSI), CEU (Central European ancestry, Utah sample)
the SNPs would probably correspond to STR,
.
SNPs & STRs frequently do not correspond. I'm thinking as in the Amarna male royals.
Was the nrY R1b whilst the autosomes pointed mostly to Inner African but not to Bight of Biafra or Lake Tchad shored Africans where that nrY uniparental has always been concentrated.
The bi-parentals amounted to, was it, 8 or 16 pieces of information arbitrarily from both parents. SNPs, unless also autosomal, consistantly transmit 1 piece of information from either parent.
A person's or geographic population's SNPs show deep ancestry sometimes far back as the Pleistocene no matter the locale. various local geo-pops with the same SNP will have different STRs 'pin-pointing' their local sub-geography/region/'district' etc. Once thought good for only 500 years back, scientists now allow them accurate as early as the very beginning of the Holocene.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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Yes in one of his article he also highlights continuity between ancient and modern egyptians :
quote:Ideologically motivated arguments by American Afrocentrists, that ancient Egyptians were black and replaced later by invaders from the Arabian peninsula abound, while recently a British tabloid trumpeted the headline “Ancient Egyptians more closely related to Europeans than modern Egyptians, scientists claim.” But the genetic reality is a bit more complicated (or perhaps boring?) than either of these suspiciously dramatic caricatures. Unsurprisingly, if you dig into the actual abstruse statistics, and caveats in said paper, they rather undermine such glitzy conclusions. Contra the headline, the people of the pharaohs are surprisingly little changed in the intervening millennia and they are right where you’d expect them.
posted
Ideologically motivated arguments by American Afrocentrists, that ancient Egyptians were black and replaced later by invaders from the Arabian.
Did he really say that? Because that didn't disprove the ancient Egyptians weren't Black and population movement did occur in Egypt and others part's of Africa.
Posts: 1123 | From: New York | Registered: Feb 2016
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I'm listening to some of this are there controls here to forward the podcast? It doesn't seem so
While some people might be of the same haplogroup as certain ancient Egyptians it doesn't mean the person has any actual descendant ancestry from an Egyptian.
A Copt may have more admixture but they also can be more likely to have some part actual genetic descendance from an ancient Egyptian
________________________________
wiki:
Copts
genetics
According to Y-DNA analysis by Hassan et al. (2008), around 45% of Copts in Sudan carry the Haplogroup J. The remainder mainly belong to the E1b1b clade (21%). Both paternal lineages are common among other local Afroasiatic-speaking populations (Beja, Ethiopians, Sudanese Arabs), as well as the Nubians.[139] E1b1b/E3b reaches its highest frequencies among North Africans, Levantine Middle Easterners, and Ethiopid East Africans.[140] The next most common haplogroups borne by Copts are the European-linked R1b clade (15%), as well as the archaic African B lineage (15%).[139]
Maternally, Hassan (2009) found that Copts in Sudan exclusively carry various descendants of the macrohaplogroup N. This mtDNA clade is likewise closely associated with local Afroasiatic-speaking populations, including Berbers and Ethiopid peoples. Of the N derivatives borne by Copts, U6 is most frequent (28%), followed by the haplogroup T (17%).[141]
A 2015 study by Dobon et al. identified an ancestral autosomal component of Western Eurasian origin that is common to many modern Afroasiatic-speaking populations in Northeast Africa. Known as the Coptic component, it peaks among Egyptian Copts who settled in Sudan over the past two centuries. In their analysis, Sudan's Copts formed a separated group in the PCA, a close outlier to other Egyptians, Afro-Asiatic-speaking Northeast Africans and Middle East populations. The scientists suggest that this points to a common origin for the general population of Egypt, or Middle Eastern and North African populations. Copts in general shared the same main ancestral component with North African/Middle Eastern populations. They also associate the Coptic component with Ancient Egyptian ancestry, without the later Arabian influence that is present among other Egyptians.[142]
Hollfelder et al. (2017) analysed various populations in Sudan and observed that Egyptians and Copts showed low levels of genetic differentiation and lower levels of genetic diversity compared to the northeast African groups. Copts and Egyptians displayed similar levels of European or Middle Eastern ancestry (Copts were estimated to be of 69.54% ± 2.57 European ancestry, and the Egyptians of 70.65% ± 2.47 European ancestry). The authors concluded that the Copts and the Egyptians have a common history linked to smaller population sizes, and that Sudanese Copts have remained relatively isolated since their arrival to Sudan with only low levels of admixture with local northeastern Sudanese groups.[143]
An allele frequency comparative study conducted in 2020 between the two main Egyptian ethnic groups, Muslims and Christians, supported the conclusion that Egyptian Muslims and Egyptian Christians genetically originate from the same ancestors.
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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But specifically which Copts? 'Copt' technically speaking is a religious denomination. You have Copts from Alexandria to Aswan and even Sudan. You mean to tell me they all share the same exact ancestry?
You expect me to believe the Coptic man Antalas points in the Youtube video looks anything like the ancient portraits?
Also, they claim some 'North African' which like 'Sub-Saharan' ancestry is ambiguous and not that specific, especially considering that Northeast Africans are genetically distinct from Maghrebi (Northwest Africans) and again they tie North Africa to Middle-East to then create the amorphous MENA. Slim Jim knows what I'm getting at when they attempt to muddy the waters and ignore the implications on the nature and origins of Basal Eurasian.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Thereal: Ideologically motivated arguments by American Afrocentrists, that ancient Egyptians were black and replaced later by invaders from the Arabian.
Did he really say that? Because that didn't disprove the ancient Egyptians weren't Black and population movement did occur in Egypt and others part's of Africa.
He was historically wrong on so much...
Kahn/Con tried to come across as blazey blazey on the subject of ancient Egyptians at the same time revealing how he hustle is as a social media geneticist...
Anyhoo.. his eternal nile begins around 1650 bc. during the known migration of the hyskos...
Hardly eternal
However, many Copts look like mixed black people to me. So if they are the "egyptian" population after thousands of years of mixing, it makes sense.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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