posted
This probably doesnt have much to do with AE, but I thought it was interesting that Nubians have been in Egypt for thousands of years before the Arabs, yet they are still referred to as Nubians, rather than Egyptians.
I found this article online, I was not aware that racism was so widespread in Cairo.
"CAIRO, June 24 (Reuters) - Mohammad Adam al-Bakr, a Sudanese street vendor, didn't see the knife that stabbed him, and hardly knew the man who thrust it into his abdomen, leaving him bleeding on a Cairo sidewalk.
But he says he knows exactly why he was attacked while selling cheap wallets on the street outside a Cairo subway stop.
"The economy is difficult here. There is racism. It's not just against Sudanese, but any African," he said, recuperating in bed from his wounds.
African migrants in Cairo, some of them refugees fleeing war and persecution and others simply seeking better lives abroad, say they face persistent racism in Egypt, though violent attacks are rare.
They say raucous youths taunt them on the streets by yelling "oonga boonga" at them, throwing rocks and calling them names. The harassment, they say, is only getting worse as Egypt's battered economy continues to suffer.
"They don't want us here," said one Sudanese woman, who says she was beaten on the street by a stranger in an attack she attributes to racism.
As Europe and the West have fortified their borders against refugees and economic migrants, more and more Africans have found themselves stranded in countries like Egypt, unwilling or afraid to return home but unable to move on.
Dependent on tourist dollars and connected by land to war-torn Sudan, Egypt has been more lenient than other Middle Eastern states about granting African migrants entry on student or tourist visas and sympathetic about letting them stay.
But the semi-official al-Ahram newspaper voiced fears of a "foreigner crisis" in the labour market in a recent article and said African workers were filling the streets of the capital.
"There is a perception that there are so many problems at home, these migrants simply cannot be absorbed. The economy cannot afford to absorb them," said Anita Fabos, director of the Forced Migration and Refugee Studies programme at the American University in Cairo.
"The perception of Egyptians is that all these people come here as scroungers," she said.
TENSIONS RISING
Violence against migrants is not nearly as severe as mass attacks against African migrant workers in neighbouring Libya in 2000 in which officials said up to six migrants died. Media reports put the death toll higher.
But a doctor who provides medical care to a community of 20,000 African refugees and asylum-seekers registered with his Cairo clinic says violence against Africans is rising.
"It's probably one serious event a month...I mean something that requires hospitalisation or serious medical care," said Keith Russell, medical director of Joint Relief Ministries.
His patients include a family whose home was firebombed and who were stabbed as they fled, a woman attacked from behind by a man who slashed at her wrists, and a man who was unconscious for 24 hours after being attacked by a gang of youths and thrown onto railroad tracks. All of the victims were Sudanese.
Most of them, especially refugees who feel vulnerable and are afraid of being deported, do not go to the police, he said.
The United Nations refugee agency, responsible for roughly 8,500 recognised urban refugees in Egypt, said race-related violence first showed up on its radar here last year, when three violent incidents were reported.
"It's a new phenomenon. We don't recall in the previous years that refugees have been subject to racist incidents," a spokesman said, adding that the problem was still "marginal".
No one knows how many African immigrants live in Egypt, a vast country of roughly 70 million people. Most of the immigrants -- between 250,000 and several million -- are Sudanese, mainly Arabic-speaking, Muslim northerners who blend in better than refugees from the more African south or west.
A smattering of immigrants from other African countries like Somalia, Ethiopia and Eritrea have also made Cairo their home -- or at least a stop on the road to a better life in the West.
The newcomers say they are hassled because they are black. Though Egypt is geographically in Africa, its national identity is deeply rooted in the Arab, Muslim Middle East.
Egyptians counter there is little racism, saying Egyptians come in all colours.
"We are African also. This is one aspect of our identity. It is one of our roots," said Nabil Abdel Fattah, an analyst at the al-Ahram Centre for Political and Strategic Studies.
"The Sudanese people are living together with Egyptian people without any discrimination," he added, saying any problems were caused by individual trouble-makers, not society.
COMPETING FOR CRUMBS
Activists say resentment against the migrants is high because of a belief that African workers undercut Egyptians in the labour market at a time when jobs are scarce and prices of basic goods are rising.
Egypt's economy has suffered in recent months as tourism -- a key foreign currency earner -- slumped in the wake of September 11 attacks on the United States and as violence in nearby Israel and the Palestinian territories spiralled.
Many of the migrants live on the fringes of Cairo's strained economy. They live up dank stairwells in crowded apartment blocks in some of Cairo's poorest neighbourhoods and share space with Egyptians who are also struggling to survive.
"There is a sort of competition between Egyptians and Sudanese," said Magda Ali, programme officer for Maan, a Sudanese women's empowerment group.
The fact that some African refugees, by applying for asylum at the United Nations, can move to the West, only fuels the resentment. Poor Egyptians rarely have that opportunity.
Bakr and another Western Sudanese man injured in the same attack say the stabbing by a neighbourhood thug they say they recognised but did not personally know followed daily harassment by nearby vendors who told them to go back to Sudan.
"I hope that as soon as I can, I will leave," said Mohammad Osman, a recognised refugee slated for resettlement to Canada."
Posts: 747 | From: Atlanta, GA USA | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Most of the racism is because southern Sudanese are taking away jobs of poor Cairene Egyptians. Nubians or Northern Sudanese don't experiance racism like that of southern Sudanese. Southern Sudanese are noticably darker ,and also Christain which does not help either.
Believe me Upper Egyptians face similar discrimination by police because of their accents. Upper Egyptians in Cairo are associated with criminals or thieves. Police in Cairo and other parts of Egypt are infamous for beating confessions out of people.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by ausar: Most of the racism is because southern Sudanese are taking away jobs of poor Cairene Egyptians. Nubians or Northern Sudanese don't experiance racism like that of southern Sudanese. Southern Sudanese are noticably darker ,and also Christain which does not help either.
Believe me Upper Egyptians face similar discrimination by police because of their accents. Upper Egyptians in Cairo are associated with criminals or thieves. Police in Cairo and other parts of Egypt are infamous for beating confessions out of people.
Well how would an African American visiting Egypt be treated. Because if they ARE racist, they won't get one penny of my tourist money, believe that.
Posts: 747 | From: Atlanta, GA USA | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Well how would an African American visiting Egypt be treated. Because if they ARE racist, they won't get one penny of my tourist money, believe that.
African Americans tend to be better treated than southern Sudanese or Western Africans. Many times African Americans with their skin tones blend in better with Egyptians than the southern Sudanese. You will not experiance racism.
Here's the experiance of one reporter who went to Egypt who happens to be an African American:
Last fall, with the war in Iraq looming, I traveled to Egypt. Ever since I converted to Islam nearly a decade ago, when I was 21, I have wanted to study in Cairo. One day in March, I went out to the dusty balcony of my downtown apartment to find, beneath the cinnamon-colored smog, thousands of Egyptian men in buttoned shirts and village robes, marching with fists raised and chanting anti-American slogans. Veiled mothers on the balconies opposite mine watched, clutching their veiled daughters.
I'd been locked up in my apartment since the war began, an American lying low, dreading this very riot. Had the protesters known that an American was watching, I imagined, they would have run up the stairwell of my tenement -- the pulley elevator worked sporadically -- and hanged me from the balcony.
I could see only a small swath of the protest from this angle. In a moment of foolish curiosity, I took my camera and hurried down the stairwell, past the stray, starving cats, to get a better look. I had lived on this street for six months. Each day, I bought my Arabic newspapers from Ahmed's closet-size newsstand, my lunch from Felfela, the shawarma restaurant in my building. This was my neighborhood. Like my neighbors, I wanted to know what was happening on my street.
Rounding the corner, I saw the men filing down the road. They were flanked by tanks, water cannons, iron convoy trucks and grimacing Egyptian soldiers with plastic shields and worn clubs.
The owner of a nearby shoe store recognized me and noticed my camera. In Arabic, he told me that the protesters might be angered if they saw me taking pictures. I pocketed my camera and stood beside him, watching the endless line of shouting men. Suddenly, we heard a howl down the street, and everyone around us started running away from the tanks and soldiers. I rushed home and up to my balcony in time to see a water cannon racing after protesters. Glass shattered in the distance. Shouts. Young boys hurled stones at soldiers. Sirens.
Ten days later, I cut short my stay and left the country -- not for fear of riots, but because in Cairo I had been living a lie. A light-skinned black man, I looked perfectly Egyptian, so Egyptian that I'd been passing for the past six months.
When I first walked the overcrowded streets of Cairo, the hustlers who preyed on tourists rarely noticed me; they chased after Swedes and Italians in the papyrus shops instead. At first I thought the hustlers assumed a black tourist had less money to be schemed from his pockets. But twice in my first week, native Egyptians asked me for directions.
For a few months, I enjoyed the privilege of resembling everyone else. A family of devout Muslims who worked in a tourist shop nearby adopted me, wanting to shield a new believer from those cynical Muslims who prey on wide-eyed converts. During Ramadan, I broke my fast with them daily. We talked of the coming war, of Islam and of America, about which they held many misconceptions. But we never talked of race. I often wondered if they knew I was black at all. They arranged lessons for me with their village sheik. I told myself it was not because I looked so Egyptian that they embraced me, but only because I was a Muslim. Hadn't I embraced Islam to find the racial utopia Malcolm X discovered in Mecca?
One night during Ramadan, a skinny hustler in knockoff American clothes joined us for dinner. He was one of those 20-something lotharios who haunt downtown Cairo, seducing tourists. After dinner, we sat alone in front of the shop.
''Do you know the story of Tupac Shakur?'' he asked me. I nodded and smiled; I was intrigued that he knew anything about rap and proud that he did. ''They killed him in the ghetto,'' he continued. ''I love all the rap, all the niggers.''
My face went hot. I told him he shouldn't use that word.
''Why not?'' he asked. ''All the blacks use it. All the blacks have sex and sell drugs like Tupac and Jay-Z.''
Not since grade school had such talk so upset me. ''Look at me,'' I said. ''I'm black. I don't sell drugs.''
''Please, don't be upset,'' the young man said, offering me his hand. ''I'm a nigger. I'm a hustler like Tupac.''
I never told my adopted family of the incident. Their English was only slightly better than my Arabic. How could I explain it? Yet I couldn't stop worrying that the young hustler represented the real attitude of Arab Muslims, who'd been fed a steady diet of black stereotypes in imported American movies. My adopted family had seen the same films. Why would they feel differently? Because they prayed five times a day, because they didn't drink?
I didn't want to admit that they might have treated me differently if my skin were darker. I wished I didn't look so Egyptian so that I could know for sure. Looking back, I knew why some part of me was thrilled by the riot. Seeing it, I knew I would go back home. I couldn't wait to be myself again.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by homeylu: Well how would an African American visiting Egypt be treated. Because if they ARE racist, they won't get one penny of my tourist money, believe that.
You should visit yourself to find out. There is racism every where. There is xenophobia everywhere. There is classism everywhere. All of my experiences with Egyptians have been rather pleasant so I can't imagine there being widespread racism in Egypt.
posted
Ausar - I heard something like that before about Egyptian kids listening to rap music and using the word "nigga." I would let it slide coming from someone I meet in a different country as long as they didn't use it in a derogatory way...
Posts: 887 | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ausar - I heard something like that before about Egyptian kids listening to rap music and using the word "nigga." I would let it slide coming from someone I meet in a different country as long as they didn't use it in a derogatory way...
I wouldn't let it slide because the only exposure some foreginers get to African Americans is through popular media. Most of it's very negative,so one could get the impression that the streotypes of African Americans in particular were true. You see how harmful negative images can be? Ethnic groups have a responsiblity to present their images well,or you will get bad treatment worldwide.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by neo*geo: Ausar - I heard something like that before about Egyptian kids listening to rap music and using the word "nigga." I would let it slide coming from someone I meet in a different country as long as they didn't use it in a derogatory way...
Let it slide????...you're pitiful
Posts: 747 | From: Atlanta, GA USA | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ausar that guy in the article is basically saying that he blended in because of his complexion. He seems that he also noticed the stereotypes of African Americans in Egypt as well. I can tell you when I lived in Germany there were only 2 African American television shows in their language, The Fresh Prince of Belair, and The Cosby Show-both shows depicting upper middle class African Americans. They listened to a lot of hip-hop there as well, but I was surprised to learn that I experience more racism here than in the hometown of Hitler himself. I don't know if the media had anything to do with it or not. But also I could help noticing everywhere I looked there were extremely large billboards of Naomi Campbell advertising everywhere. (which is probably why they found this full lipped beauty so irresistable )
Posts: 747 | From: Atlanta, GA USA | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Egypt has their own homegrown streotypes about Upper Egyptians[Saidi] that most are dumb or slow people. Most of the jokes you hear amung Cairene mostly have to do with Upper Egyptian people. I don't think most Egyptians like racial jokes though. I would define it more as xenophobia than racism. Unfortunatley,Egyptians have also picked up many racist lingo like 'ooga booga'' which comes from America media. Most of these attacks on Africans also tend to be in more areas like Maadi which are Afrangi Egyptians[wannabe European Egyptians],and in other areas you have balady Egyptians[people from rural areas].
My advice for you is to read a little about modern Egypt before you come. One book I recommend is the Balady Women of Cairo by Evelyn A. Early.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ok, I'll take that advice and read up on it. Let's say I plan to stay around 3 weeks, will I have to wear a scarf everywhere I go? The long dresses are not a problem, I tend to wear those anyway. I plan to spend more time in Aswan learning about the Nubian culture, which you said is basically arabic (kind of disappointing), but mostly to study Ancient sites.
Posts: 747 | From: Atlanta, GA USA | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
No,you donot have to wear the hijab in anywhere in Egypt. Not even Egyptian women have to wear it and most really don't. If you see rural Upper Egyptian women wearing a head covering then it's a traditional head covering called a tar'ha.
You can dress as you wish as long as it's not revealing. Make sure to cover yourself where you are not exposed.
Just to give you some basics on modern Egyptian sub cultures:
Saidi: term that denotes Upper Egyptian
Bahary: term denoting Lower Egyptians or Delta Egyptians
balady: country people who have moved into Cairo from rural areas from the Delta,Middle,and Upper Egypt
Another thing when you visit people in their shops there is no set price. Often you can bargin with the shop owners or vendors. Egypt works on the pound system which there are many banks across Egypt that convert money. Beware of pickpockets in Cairo. Little children often in Cairo serve as pickpockets,so be very cautious.
Let me also say that Cairo is set up like a maze. You might have to either take a taxi from a local man or hire a driver. You can always take the microbus but sometimes it might bring you to areas you might not wish to go.
My favoriet areas that I am partial too are Luxor and Aswan.
Most tour guides in Egypt know both English and Arabic. Esepcially those around Luxor.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by neo: "Emancipate yourself from mental slavery..."][QUOTE]
Good quote from Bob Marley's redemption song.
I'm a Marley fan,
Here's another Quote from Bob Marley:
To divide and rule could only tear us apart; In everyman chest, there beats a heart. So soon we'll find out who is the real revolutionaries; And I don't want my people to be tricked by mercenaries. Africans liberate [Zimbabwe].
Every man gotta right to decide his own destiny, And in this judgement there is no partiality. So arm in arms, with arms, we'll fight this little struggle, 'Cause that's the only way we can overcome our little trouble. Africans liberate [Zimbabwe].
peace....
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 25 July 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by ausar: No,you donot have to wear the hijab in anywhere in Egypt. Not even Egyptian women have to wear it and most really don't. If you see rural Upper Egyptian women wearing a head covering then it's a traditional head covering called a tar'ha.
You can dress as you wish as long as it's not revealing. Make sure to cover yourself where you are not exposed.
Just to give you some basics on modern Egyptian sub cultures:
Saidi: term that denotes Upper Egyptian
Bahary: term denoting Lower Egyptians or Delta Egyptians
balady: country people who have moved into Cairo from rural areas from the Delta,Middle,and Upper Egypt
Another thing when you visit people in their shops there is no set price. Often you can bargin with the shop owners or vendors. Egypt works on the pound system which there are many banks across Egypt that convert money. Beware of pickpockets in Cairo. Little children often in Cairo serve as pickpockets,so be very cautious.
Let me also say that Cairo is set up like a maze. You might have to either take a taxi from a local man or hire a driver. You can always take the microbus but sometimes it might bring you to areas you might not wish to go.
My favoriet areas that I am partial too are Luxor and Aswan.
Most tour guides in Egypt know both English and Arabic. Esepcially those around Luxor.
Well that's good to know. I may spend more time in Luxor as well, because I hear they have the largest ancient sites. And I also want to visit the Nubia museum in Aswan. I honestly don't know what else is in Cairo besides the Giza pyramids and the Museum, because I have zero interest in stepping foot in any mosque.(no offense to muslims). So it's good to know I don't have to wear a veil, since I'm not coming to convert to Islam, but I also didn't want to 'stand out' like a typical American either. LOL.
Posts: 747 | From: Atlanta, GA USA | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by rasol: [QUOTE]Originally posted by neo: "Emancipate yourself from mental slavery..."][QUOTE]
Good quote from Bob Marley's redemption song.
I'm a Marley fan,
Here's another Quote from Bob Marley:
To divide and rule could only tear us apart; In everyman chest, there beats a heart. So soon we'll find out who is the real revolutionaries; And I don't want my people to be tricked by mercenaries. Africans liberate [Zimbabwe].
Every man gotta right to decide his own destiny, And in this judgement there is no partiality. So arm in arms, with arms, we'll fight this little struggle, 'Cause that's the only way we can overcome our little trouble. Africans liberate [Zimbabwe].
peace....
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 25 July 2004).]
cute
I had decide to let up off Neo*geo, but he tends to follow me around picking arguments under his various I.D.'s
Posts: 747 | From: Atlanta, GA USA | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Homeylu,you also have the mastabas of high officals of the Old Kingdom. Most mosques in Egypt won't allow non-Muslims to step in them anyway. You might however get invited into somebody's house for tea. This often happens to tourist. Don't worry the Egyptian people are nice. If you are into Christainty the church where the baby Jesus fled is in Cairo,and you also have Coptic cario which features many beautiful churches.
Here is another article on racism in Egypt:
A question of colour Is racial prejudice on the rise in Egypt, or are Egyptians merely obsessed with skin colour? Gamal Nkrumah searches for answers
[Gamal Nkrumah] It is not an entirely curious fact that most Egyptians seem fixated on blue-eyed blondes. For one thing, the country is peopled essentially by dark-skinned, dark-haired people, and familiarity does breed contempt. Blue-eyed blondes are an exotic rarity. Mind you, an ever increasing number of well-heeled Egyptian women are desperately resorting to skin-lightening creams, light coloured-tinted contact lenses and hair bleaching dyes in an often farcical attempt to attain the golden-locked look.
Admittedly, all this is part of a global trend. Yellow-thatched Japanese youngsters are a common sight in Tokyo nowadays. Mercifully, the phenomenon hasn't quite caught on in Cairo, yet.
The whitening of Egypt has become a lucrative industry. Television commercials bombard viewers with a baffling array of skin-lightening creams and hair-straightening contraptions, creams and shampoos to effect the "white" look.
"Nothing is more dangerous than an idea when it's the only one you have," noted French philosopher Emile Chartier. Perhaps, he didn't have the single-minded struggle to be "white" in mind. To pass as white has become, for some, their veritable raison d'être.
The Egyptians see themselves as essentially sumr, or "dark". However, for all intents and purposes this is a most confusing and contentious term. If an individual is described as asmar, the masculine, or samra , the feminine, they could range in colour from the southern Sudanese ebony or indigo black, a west African chocolate or mahogany black, the various copper and honey-toned Ethiopian and Somali types, to the olive or off-white dark-haired Mediterranean or Middle Eastern-looking type.
Samara, or "Darkie", traditionally a term of endearment, has today taken on pejorative connotations in contemporary Egypt. The ugly forces of "shadism" are also at work in the country. Shadism, as a social and politico-economic occurrence was, and perhaps still is, pervasive in the Caribbean and among African Americans. Lighter-skinned blacks, who presumably had a greater infusion of white blood have been considered socially superior to darker, full-blooded blacks. Suspected of actually being the slave-masters' progeny, they have been encouraged to assume overseer roles over the unadulterated blacks. In due course, they were accorded special social status, assumed political leadership and monopolised what economic opportunities presented themselves to the black elites. Those who have "good hair", meaning straighter and less kinky hair were also favoured.
In Egypt, no such historical tradition existed. But the perverted logic of shadism is sadly very much at work. Darker is uncouth, unpolished, crude and common. Lighter is, accordingly, more desirable, preferred, simply superior, and to ignore this is to ignore one of the salient features of contemporary Egypt.
At some theoretical level it is understandable that black conjures up images of the ugly, pathetic and wretched in the Egyptian psyche. Egypt has become progressively whiter over the millennia. Even so, songs praising dark-skinned or black beauty ranging from the now classic "Asmar ya asmarani" [Dark one, oh dark one] sung by a coterie of now long-departed superstars including Faiza Ahmed and Abdel-Halim Hafez to the more contemporary "Habibi laun al-chocolata" , [My love is the colour of chocolate], by Nubian singer Mohamed Mounir. This genre has always been a characteristic feature of Egyptian lyrical folklore.
Songs such as "Asmar malek rouhi" [The dark one owns my soul], and "Alu al-samar ahla walla al-bayad ahla" [They asked whether darkness was more comely than whiteness], another popular song by Soad Mohamed, clearly indicate a collective acknowledgment of the attractiveness of darkness among Egyptians. Indeed, darkness is generally perceived to confer upon the individual the peculiarly Egyptian concept of damm khafif loosely translated as "charming" or "humorous". This is attested to by the popularity of references to darkness in the context of love and romance in the popular Egyptian song.
"Asmar, asmar tayeb malu, walla samaru sirr gamalu" [So what if he is dark, that is the secret of his beauty], Mohamed Qandil's "Gamil wa asmar" [Beautiful and Dark], predated the "Black is Beautiful" slogan of the 1970s civil rights movement in the United States. Racism as an institutionalised political and economic phenomenon never existed in Egypt.
Shades of dark photo: Youssef Rakha
There are many Nubian and Sudanese singers based in Cairo, the cultural capital of the Arab world, but their music is a different genre altogether. A few, such as Jawaher, a popular Sudanese singer, manage to penetrate the Egyptian pop-song market with smash hits such as "Ana bahebb al-asmarani" [I love the dark one]. Yet another is "Gani al-asmar gani" [The dark one came to me] a hit song sang by Etab, a Saudi singer who is herself black.
Nevertheless, it has to be mentioned that even in the realm of the popular song where traditionally references to whiteness or lightness of skin are minimal, there are a few exceptions. "Al-oyoun al-khodr saharouni" [Her green eyes bewitched me], by Muharram Fouad is one such exception.
Sadly, this fondness of darkness in popular songs is not reflected on the street. "I've never been called a nigger to my face more times in my life," Steffan, an African American studying in Cairo, told Al-Ahram Weekly . "Some Egyptian youth may listen to a lot of rap music and may not know how offensive the word is. But some of the young adults I've heard it from, I hold accountable. They understand how offensive the word is," he said. "It's telling that discussion of race is so minimal that people could get away with using ignorance as an excuse for using the word nigger," he added.
When black Africans are asked whether they felt they were subject to racial prejudice while in Egypt, most queried had terrible stories of personal experiences to tell. African Americans, on the whole, were less emphatic. Some said that they did not suffer from any form of racial discrimination when in Egypt.
"Lighter-skinned Egyptians have treated me just fine. Speaking for myself, I have not experienced racism from Egyptians," said a friend from Oakland, California. "When I am in Egypt, it is as a visitor. Most Egyptians instinctively know that I am African American, but there are some who think I am Egyptian or Nubian. But, whatever they think I am, I believe they think I am rich," she explained. "So whether I am in Cairo, Luxor or Aswan, Egyptians are always kind and polite to me. In fact, a lot of them want to talk to me. The Nubians, of course, always call me their Nubian 'sistah'."
The fact that shopkeepers, hoteliers and the public at large tend to equate Americans (be they black or white) with dollars and relative wealth might account for the impression that African Americans are less likely to face racial prejudice than sub-Saharan Africans in Egypt and are more likely to be accorded a warmer reception. "One other thing, I am always treated nicely by staff whether I am in a five-star hotel or a no-star hotel," my Californian friend said.
Africans from countries south of the Sahara, including the southern Sudanese and not excepting the large African diplomatic community in Cairo, have more troubling tales to tell.
However, racial prejudice is not exclusively directed at those from sub-Saharan Africa. Upper class Egyptians, often fairer than their poorer compatriots, invariably look down on lower class Egyptians who tend to be darker in complexion. There is a subtle correlation between lower income and darker complexion. The Egyptian upper classes and elites tend to be noticeably lighter in complexion than their poorer and working class compatriots. "They labour in the sun," is sometimes the cynical explanation.
But, a more accurate explanation would be that Egypt has for thousands of years been ruled by foreign, and lighter-skinned, invaders -- Persians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Turks, the French and British. A large section of the pre-revolutionary Egyptian elite could trace their ancestry to Balkan, Caucasian and Turkish roots. Moreover, Napoleon Bonaparte's French expedition was notorious for sowing its seeds in places like the Delta city of Mansoura whose women are reputedly "exceptionally beautiful"; in Egyptian common parlance that means fair-skinned, with light-coloured eyes and hair.
Not only are the poorer classes darker in complexion, but they tend to display more "African" cultural traits. Much of the music they enjoy has rhythmic beats that are reminiscent of those of the music of Africa south of the Sahara, with an emphasis on drums and percussion. The elite tend to favour classical Western-influenced music or Middle Eastern (Turkish and Persian) musical strains dominated by stringed instruments. While the poorer and working classes are more likely to dance spontaneously and with abandon in public, the elites tend to be more restrained. Much clapping and ululation accompanies street parties in low income areas, the elites, in sharp contrast, shun these "baladi" literally "country" traits, suggestive of the African.
"The foremost issue is the darkness of your skin and your manner of dress. The darker your skin and the more ethnic, or African, your style of dress, the more stares and harassment you will receive," explained Thomas Ford, an African American resident in Cairo. "As a Black man, an African American, I have been fortunate enough not to have experienced anything first hand. I have been welcomed with open arms."
Again, like many of his compatriots, he sees a qualitative difference between racism in Egypt and racism in his native US. "I will say that, in general, racism in Egypt is much less of an issue than in other parts of the world. But anyone who denies its existence is fooling himself." Ford spoke of a "subtle level of racism" that is "hard to define". Racism in Egypt, he said, was more prevalent among the educated and socioeconomic and political elites than among the poor and working classes. "In some ways it is almost non-existent compared to what I have experienced in the US, but at the same time there are some pervasive issues in Egypt involving race."
posted
There are ancient sites in Aswan. Good ones. But if you want the cream of ancient sites then Luxor is the place. Allow yourself at least twice as long in Luxor as anywhere else. In six years, I still have things to see and parts of Karnak to poke about in.
Posts: 2235 | From: Jail | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by homeylu: Ok, I'll take that advice and read up on it. Let's say I plan to stay around 3 weeks, will I have to wear a scarf everywhere I go? The long dresses are not a problem, I tend to wear those anyway. I plan to spend more time in Aswan learning about the Nubian culture, which you said is basically arabic (kind of disappointing), but mostly to study Ancient sites.
The nubian culture in egypt tend to be more arabized than the nubian culture in sudan,but the culture of the nubians is still nubian and not arab even if some mainly speak arabic,and many in both countries still practice the nubian faith with islam or if some are christian today. I seen t.v. specials on this and read a few books on modern nubians
posted
Ausar, that article was very interesting, I was not aware that the Egyptians were so obsessed with skin color. It seems that everywhere "The Man" has stepped fot he managed to exert his "superiority" with regard to skin color. Epecially interesting is the Egyptian trying to avoid tans and skin whitening creams being so popular, while here in the US, tanning creams, tanning beds are selling like crazy!! Why can't people just be happy in the skin their in? The day we can appreciate our variety will be what "true" assimilation is, and not interracial mixing to "lighten" or "darken" the skin, practiced by people with self-hate.
Posts: 747 | From: Atlanta, GA USA | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by kenndo: The nubian culture in egypt tend to be more arabized than the nubian culture in sudan,but the culture of the nubians is still nubian and not arab even if some mainly speak arabic,and many in both countries still practice the nubian faith with islam or if some are christian today. I seen t.v. specials on this and read a few books on modern nubians
If you don't mind, what exactly was the Nubian faith before Islam or Christianity? And I'm not talking about polytheism in Ancient times, because I don't see how you can practice that along with Islam. Thanks.
Posts: 747 | From: Atlanta, GA USA | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by homeylu: If you don't mind, what exactly was the Nubian faith before Islam or Christianity? And I'm not talking about polytheism in Ancient times, because I don't see how you can practice that along with Islam. Thanks.
The Nubians worshipped Amun. Their practices were just slightly different from the ancient Egyptian system. Later they converted to Christianity and Islam didn't become the main religion until the 15th century.
quote:Originally posted by neo*geo: The Nubians worshipped Amun. Their practices were just slightly different from the ancient Egyptian system. Later they converted to Christianity and Islam didn't become the main religion until the 15th century.
What does he mean when he says they practice the "Nubian faith" with "Islam", what faith is he talking about? Christianity? Is he saying that some are muslims, some christians, or do they mix the two? I just wanted some clarification. Thanks
Posts: 747 | From: Atlanta, GA USA | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by homeylu: What does he mean when he says they practice the "Nubian faith" with "Islam", what faith is he talking about? Christianity? Is he saying that some are muslims, some christians, or do they mix the two? I just wanted some clarification. Thanks
Maybe Ausar could give more info on that since he's posted on things like that before. I do know that in rural parts of Egypt and in northern Sudan where the Nubians are, there is somewhat of a fusion of beliefs and practices combining ancient religion with Islam or Christianity.
quote:Originally posted by homeylu: This probably doesnt have much to do with AE, but I thought it was interesting that Nubians have been in Egypt for thousands of years before the Arabs, yet they are still referred to as Nubians, rather than Egyptians.
I found this article online, I was not aware that racism was so widespread in Cairo.
"CAIRO, June 24 (Reuters) - Mohammad Adam al-Bakr, a Sudanese street vendor, didn't see the knife that stabbed him, and hardly knew the man who thrust it into his abdomen, leaving him bleeding on a Cairo sidewalk.
But he says he knows exactly why he was attacked while selling cheap wallets on the street outside a Cairo subway stop.
"The economy is difficult here. There is racism. It's not just against Sudanese, but any African," he said, recuperating in bed from his wounds.
African migrants in Cairo, some of them refugees fleeing war and persecution and others simply seeking better lives abroad, say they face persistent racism in Egypt, though violent attacks are rare.
They say raucous youths taunt them on the streets by yelling "oonga boonga" at them, throwing rocks and calling them names. The harassment, they say, is only getting worse as Egypt's battered economy continues to suffer.
"They don't want us here," said one Sudanese woman, who says she was beaten on the street by a stranger in an attack she attributes to racism.
As Europe and the West have fortified their borders against refugees and economic migrants, more and more Africans have found themselves stranded in countries like Egypt, unwilling or afraid to return home but unable to move on.
Dependent on tourist dollars and connected by land to war-torn Sudan, Egypt has been more lenient than other Middle Eastern states about granting African migrants entry on student or tourist visas and sympathetic about letting them stay.
But the semi-official al-Ahram newspaper voiced fears of a "foreigner crisis" in the labour market in a recent article and said African workers were filling the streets of the capital.
"There is a perception that there are so many problems at home, these migrants simply cannot be absorbed. The economy cannot afford to absorb them," said Anita Fabos, director of the Forced Migration and Refugee Studies programme at the American University in Cairo.
"The perception of Egyptians is that all these people come here as scroungers," she said.
TENSIONS RISING
Violence against migrants is not nearly as severe as mass attacks against African migrant workers in neighbouring Libya in 2000 in which officials said up to six migrants died. Media reports put the death toll higher.
But a doctor who provides medical care to a community of 20,000 African refugees and asylum-seekers registered with his Cairo clinic says violence against Africans is rising.
"It's probably one serious event a month...I mean something that requires hospitalisation or serious medical care," said Keith Russell, medical director of Joint Relief Ministries.
His patients include a family whose home was firebombed and who were stabbed as they fled, a woman attacked from behind by a man who slashed at her wrists, and a man who was unconscious for 24 hours after being attacked by a gang of youths and thrown onto railroad tracks. All of the victims were Sudanese.
Most of them, especially refugees who feel vulnerable and are afraid of being deported, do not go to the police, he said.
The United Nations refugee agency, responsible for roughly 8,500 recognised urban refugees in Egypt, said race-related violence first showed up on its radar here last year, when three violent incidents were reported.
"It's a new phenomenon. We don't recall in the previous years that refugees have been subject to racist incidents," a spokesman said, adding that the problem was still "marginal".
No one knows how many African immigrants live in Egypt, a vast country of roughly 70 million people. Most of the immigrants -- between 250,000 and several million -- are Sudanese, mainly Arabic-speaking, Muslim northerners who blend in better than refugees from the more African south or west.
A smattering of immigrants from other African countries like Somalia, Ethiopia and Eritrea have also made Cairo their home -- or at least a stop on the road to a better life in the West.
The newcomers say they are hassled because they are black. Though Egypt is geographically in Africa, its national identity is deeply rooted in the Arab, Muslim Middle East.
Egyptians counter there is little racism, saying Egyptians come in all colours.
"We are African also. This is one aspect of our identity. It is one of our roots," said Nabil Abdel Fattah, an analyst at the al-Ahram Centre for Political and Strategic Studies.
"The Sudanese people are living together with Egyptian people without any discrimination," he added, saying any problems were caused by individual trouble-makers, not society.
COMPETING FOR CRUMBS
Activists say resentment against the migrants is high because of a belief that African workers undercut Egyptians in the labour market at a time when jobs are scarce and prices of basic goods are rising.
Egypt's economy has suffered in recent months as tourism -- a key foreign currency earner -- slumped in the wake of September 11 attacks on the United States and as violence in nearby Israel and the Palestinian territories spiralled.
Many of the migrants live on the fringes of Cairo's strained economy. They live up dank stairwells in crowded apartment blocks in some of Cairo's poorest neighbourhoods and share space with Egyptians who are also struggling to survive.
"There is a sort of competition between Egyptians and Sudanese," said Magda Ali, programme officer for Maan, a Sudanese women's empowerment group.
The fact that some African refugees, by applying for asylum at the United Nations, can move to the West, only fuels the resentment. Poor Egyptians rarely have that opportunity.
Bakr and another Western Sudanese man injured in the same attack say the stabbing by a neighbourhood thug they say they recognised but did not personally know followed daily harassment by nearby vendors who told them to go back to Sudan.
"I hope that as soon as I can, I will leave," said Mohammad Osman, a recognised refugee slated for resettlement to Canada."
Hmmmm, I must say xenophobia is alive and well in South Africa. Our black brothers and sister of SA do not like blacks from other countries coming to SA, regardless of refugee status or otherwise, they believe they are coming to steall there jobs, so our government has a very delicate situation on there hands. My heart breaks for the people who have fled worn torn countries to try to salvage a new life under a true demoracy, only to find they are treated with suspension even if they have refugee status, I am not referring to illegal aliens. Where do these poor people go too. In SA thousands of illegals are sent back each month only to return a few days later, because of no work in there countries, we have Zambawians, who fled the dictatorship of Robert Magbu, there must be hundred of thousands of Zim people illagally in SA, it is so sad, there is no food, no petrol, no money in there country. We have mozambicains as well, then a lot of africans from senegal, ivorians, DRC, Malawi, Angola, the list just goes on and on.
Dreamcatcher
Posts: 286 | From: south africa | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by neo*geo: Maybe Ausar could give more info on that since he's posted on things like that before. I do know that in rural parts of Egypt and in northern Sudan where the Nubians are, there is somewhat of a fusion of beliefs and practices combining ancient religion with Islam or Christianity.
yes,you are right,but let us not forget,that many or most nubians in the sudan are really in central and southern nubia,but many of them or arabized nubians that speak mainly arabic,but are still nubian in culture,and are pure nubian.THE many nubians and the nubian LANGUAGE is still spoken in central sudan.That is a region,that is not talked about really in the media.THE MEDIA LIKES to talk only about,northern,and southern sudan.IF you look up nubian in websters's dictionary,it will mention,NUBIAN is spoken in the central part as well,and it makes it clear you have a central sudan,and the north is trying to say it is northern to,just like arabs are trying to say the sudan is in north africa and the middle east.It is a region of it's own,not really sub-saharan,and not north african AND MOST FOLKS there are still africans,and not black arab or arab.It belongs to east africa,or northeast east africa.
quote:Originally posted by neo*geo: The Nubians worshipped Amun. Their practices were just slightly different from the ancient Egyptian system. Later they converted to Christianity and Islam didn't become the main religion until the 15th century.
yes,the nubians had amun,but they had another main god as well called apedemak,and worshipped that other one more so later when they became more nubian in culture again during the merotic period and later periods,but that one was most likely the main god before amun ,and amun was maybe more in the background in earlier times.THE nubian religion had many things in common with the ancient egytian one,after all the egyptian culture and religion or faith came from nubia.MANY AFRICANS still have thier original faith,even if some are officially christian,or muslim.THEY hide it and many kept the most important parts or all of itis still intact.scholars are beginning to do more research in to this.in haiti and the latin states in the west other some other african faiths are like this .they hide it under the christain one, there are good books about this and some t.v. shows.maybe someone on this website could explain more in detail.islam really became the official main faith after the 1400's.THE CHRISTAN nubian KINGDOM of alwa in southern nubia or southern sudan for that time was still mainly christian,but the early nubian faith was still in practiced and many worshipped both.SCHOLARS are beginning to study more and more the nubian faith and culture to better understand ancient egypt,since egypt had more in commom with nubia than any other culture.
[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 26 July 2004).]
posted
I HAVE read about zimbabwe,and the money and food are there but it is being used as tool or weapon.so i am glad they got the land back but have mixed feeling because of the problems there now,but in the long run this will make them stronger and they have to get pass the pain sooner or later.I DO NOT think all black south africans feel like that,only some and the ones shown in media just to cause trouble,black or white,but mainly white, from the west that like to show that here in the west.BUT something has do be done about real large scale moving into any state,regardless if they are the same race.south africa is trying to get it's house more in order.most south africans love thier black brothers and sisters,but they are trying to help themselves first like any group would,and hopefully that will spill over,but most folks do not want large numbers of folks coming in taking jobs as awhole no matter how much they love thier brothers and sisters,that is human nature.The problem is that many might not assimilated OR CREATED a colony instead of becoming really south african.That is a natural fear,regardless of race.Just be understanding and when you move to any AFRICAN NATION,BECOME a south african,not a african-american living in south africa or a nigerian living in south africa,or a south african living in ghana.Become one with the folks,and believe me YOU WILL FIT IN, OR IN MOST CASES DEPENDING ON WHO YOU ARE AND MINDSET you will fit in just find if you are black.
[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 26 July 2004).]
[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 27 July 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by kenndo: SCHOLARS are beginning to study more and more the nubian faith and culture to better understand ancient egypt,since egypt had more in commom with nubia than any other culture.
[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 26 July 2004).]
While watching a documentary about the Nubians on TV a few months ago, I was pleased to see that one of the leading Nubianologists in the world is a Nubian himself.
Alot of the problems with excavations in Sudan stem from the 30 civil war. There may be many sites in the hot spots of the fighting that have yet to be discovered.
quote:Originally posted by neo*geo: While watching a documentary about the Nubians on TV a few months ago, I was pleased to see that one of the leading Nubianologists in the world is a Nubian himself.
Alot of the problems with excavations in Sudan stem from the 30 civil war. There may be many sites in the hot spots of the fighting that have yet to be discovered.
I hope the situation improves...
yes.more things will be discovered than in egypt as whole if they could have peace and things are being found all the time there.i hope things improve as well.
[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 26 July 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by homeylu: I was not aware that the Egyptians were so obsessed with skin color.
Well, it isn't exactly a secret..
Miss Egypt 2004
quote:Originally posted by homeylu: It seems that everywhere "The Man" has stepped fot he managed to exert his "superiority" with regard to skin color. Epecially interesting is the Egyptian trying to avoid tans and skin whitening creams being so popular, while here in the US, tanning creams, tanning beds are selling like crazy!! Why can't people just be happy in the skin their in? The day we can appreciate our variety will be what "true" assimilation is, and not interracial mixing to "lighten" or "darken" the skin, practiced by people with self-hate.
And BTW.. I personally don't date outside of my race, for a number of reasons, but to say that anyone who does is self-hating is stretching it a bit IMO.
(sorry for the off-topic posting)
[This message has been edited by Marcus (edited 28 July 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by Marcus: And BTW.. I personally don't date outside of my race, for a number of reasons, but to say that anyone who does is self-hating, is stretching it a bit, IMO.
(sorry for the off-topic posting)
[This message has been edited by Marcus (edited 27 July 2004).]
Marcus, I didnt say "interracial mixing" itself equates to self-hate, you obviously took this out of context. I specifically stated interracial mixing to LIGHTEN of DARKEN the skin, is practiced by people with self-hate. I happen to know people that will intermix with a light person because they want their off-spring to have lighter skin, and also the reverse. There is nothing wrong with marrying outside your race, but there is something deeper when that party "exclusively" dates outside their race, do they have a problem within their own race? Obviously so.
Posts: 747 | From: Atlanta, GA USA | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
supercar
unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by kenndo: yes.more things will be discovered than in egypt as whole if they could have peace and things are being found all the time there.i hope things improve as well.
[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 26 July 2004).]
This situation is ridiculous, considering (as you pointed out earlier) that most of these "Arab" Sudanese don't look much different to other Africans, even if they have some Asian Arab blood in them. It is same thing as self-hate (in terms of race or color), as pointed out elsewhere on this thread!
quote:Originally posted by Marcus: And BTW.. I personally don't date outside of my race, for a number of reasons, but to say that anyone who does is self-hating, is stretching it a bit, IMO.
(sorry for the off-topic posting)
[This message has been edited by Marcus (edited 27 July 2004).]
Miss Egypt is stunning.
Dreamcatcher
Posts: 286 | From: south africa | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
She looks like a man actually. Plenty of Upper Egyptian women more attractive than her. Just my opinion however.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by supercar: This situation is ridiculous, considering (as you pointed out earlier) that most of these "Arab" Sudanese don't look much different to other Africans, even if they have some Asian Arab blood in them. It is same thing as self-hate (in terms of race or color), as pointed out elsewhere on this thread!
and i read that some of those black arabs in the sudan were and are really full-blooded blacks in chancellor williams book.i can't confirm this now because i can't remember the page,if that is true they are just as brainwashed like the black arabs with some form of asian blood,and when we mean asian blood,that means white or mixed raced southwest asians.most of the white arabs are from eastern europe,and mixed raced arabs,speaks for itself.by the way the first arabians were black africans,but they never arabs.that arab thing came in later.
I HAVE confirmed it,and some black arabs in the sudan are unmixed africans,on page 155 in the book the destruction of black civilization by chancellor williams,but he got wrong in the book when he said cleo was afro-asian.
[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 27 July 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by ausar: She looks like a man actually. Plenty of Upper Egyptian women more attractive than her. Just my opinion however.
Ausar, are you serious??? "he" is really cute! It seems, you are racist against Lower Egyptians ... can you explain,"Plenty of Upper Egyptian women more attractive than her" ??? Lower Egyptian women are not attractive for you? Because they are usually lighter than women from Upper Egypt?
quote:usar, are you serious??? "he" is really cute! It seems, you are racist against Lower Egyptians ... can you explain,"Plenty of Upper Egyptian women more attractive than her" ??? Lower Egyptian women are not attractive for you? Because they are usually lighter than women from Upper Egypt?
No,I like Fellaha and balady girls more than I do Alexzandrian which is probabaly where Miss Egypt comes from. She is not even Cairene because most are not even usually that light. The issue is not even about color for me,but I admit I like darkers women. ya asmarani!!! Matter of fact I find Umm Kathloum more attractive than Miss Egypt. In her younger years she would have been way more attractive than Miss Egypt.
Don't give any European looking women I want ya bint balady !!!!! They can be tanned or Asmarani. Just not Miss Egypt who looks like a man!!!
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
)
Printer-friendly view of this topic