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Originally posted by sunstorm2004:
[b]-- Sexual mores in Kemet

I like that one. When Kemetans had sex, were they more like white people or black people? [/B]

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BTW, one non-race topic I'd like to discuss is the life expectancy in ancient Egypt. It seems awfully low for such an advanced civilization. 30 years?!? Does anyone know of the life expectancy of other civilizations around the same time?

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:
[B]There's a book out called Sacred Sexuality in Ancient Egypt. It's interesting because it shows a side of Egypt rarely seen. Their freaky side. It seems that regardless of social, they were not afraid to get down.[B]

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The only evidence we have of promiscious activity in Egypt is the Turin erotic papyrus,and possibly this is of foreign origin.

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:

BTW, one...topic I'd like to discuss is the life expectancy in ancient Egypt. It seems awfully low for such an advanced civilization. 30 years?!? Does anyone know of the life expectancy of other civilizations around the same time?

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"Egyptian children who successfully completed their fifth year could generally look forward to a full life, which in peasant society was about thirty-three years for men and twenty-nine years for women, based on skeletal evidence. Textual records indicate that for upper-class males, who were generally better fed and performed less strenuous labor than the lower classes, life expectancy could reach well into the sixties and seventies and sometimes even the eighties and nineties. Upper-class women also looked forward to a longer life than women from the lower classes, but the arduous task of bearing many children resulted in a lower life expectancy compared to their male counterparts."
Cambridge University Press; "Ancient Egyptian Society and Family Life."

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:
BTW, one non-race topic I'd like to discuss is the life expectancy in ancient Egypt. It seems awfully low for such an advanced civilization. 30 years?!? Does anyone know of the life expectancy of other civilizations around the same time?

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"Life expectancy in ancient Egypt and Nubia was lower than in many modern populations. Whilst some ancient Egyptians undoubtedly enjoyed longevity, most were unlikely to live beyond about 40 years of age. This may seem young by today's standards, but it is important to view age within the context of a particular society. Thus, today people are shocked at the death of King Tutankhamun at the age of about 18 years, yet in his own society he was already 'mature' in terms of family and kingly responsibility."

"In the Egyptian community, men had to prove their masculinity by fathering children, while the women had to be able to bear these sons and daughters. Being a mother meant being able to keep her marriage secure and to gain a better position in society."

"Adultery in Egypt was wrong. Women got the worst punishment for adultery - a man might just be forced into a divorce, but a woman could conceivably be killed for that crime. In the Tale of Two Brothers, the adulterous wife was found out, murdered and her body was thrown to the dogs.
Unmarried women, on the other hand, seem to be free to choose partners as they so desire, and enjoy their love life to its fullest."

"Prostitutes advertised themselves through their clothing and make up. Some prostitutes wore blue faience beaded fish-net dresses, some of which is kept in the Weingreen Museum of Biblical Archaeology in Dublin. They painted their lips red, and tattooed themselves on the breasts or thighs and even went around totally nude."

Prescription to make a woman cease to become pregnant for one, two or three years: Grind together finely a measure of acacia dates with some honey. Moisten seed-wool with the mixture and insert it in the vagina.
-- Ebers Medical Papyrus

...Revel in pleasure while your life endures
And deck your head with myrrh. Be richly clad
In white and perfumed linen; like the gods
Anointed be; and never weary grow
In eager quest of what your heard desires -
Do as it prompts you...

From what I read,Egyptians were open about sexual relations and it was permitted before marriage,but incest amungst the comoon people was taboo.

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Originally posted by neo*geo:
"Life expectancy in ancient Egypt and Nubia was lower than in many modern populations. Whilst some ancient Egyptians undoubtedly enjoyed longevity, most were unlikely to live beyond about 40 years of age. This may seem young by today's standards, but it is important to view age within the context of a particular society. Thus, today people are shocked at the death of King Tutankhamun at the age of about 18 years, yet in his own society he was already 'mature' in terms of family and kingly responsibility."

Joyce M Filer

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a) 'Nubian' culture hasn't been sufficiently studied to determine the average life expectancy of that population...

b) Apparently Ms Filer is not aware of, or simply dismisses Herodotus' tale of the "Long-Lived Ethiopians"("most of them lived to be a hundred and twenty years old, while some even went beyond that age" - Herodotus) -- Ms. Filer's Nubians of course...

c) She also seems to be unaware that it is extremely likely that the young Tut did not pass away quietly of 'old age' at 18 but was assisted on his journey to the Other World in a coup d'etat by the opponents of 'Atenism.' I personally believe that it was a military coup led by the general Horemhab...

like I said...
Life expectancy in Kemet was essentially the same in proportion as it is today - richer nations have longer per capita life expectancies than do poorer nations. In Kemet, it depended basically upon which social class you belonged to:
"Egyptian children who successfully completed their fifth year could generally look forward to a full life, which in peasant society was about thirty-three years for men and twenty-nine years for women, based on skeletal evidence. Textual records indicate that for upper-class males, who were generally better fed and performed less strenuous labor than the lower classes, life expectancy could reach well into the sixties and seventies and sometimes even the eighties and nineties. Upper-class women also looked forward to a longer life than women from the lower classes, but the arduous task of bearing many children resulted in a lower life expectancy compared to their male counterparts."
Cambridge University Press; "Ancient Egyptian Society and Family Life."

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Originally posted by ausar:
Tour egypt is not always correct. I would recommend you get your information from books instead of tour Egypt,for books are much more accurate.

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That's not exactly true. Plenty of skeletal evidence has been studied of Nubia from A-Group to X-group and up to the Middle Ages. You might find these studies in peer reviwed physical anthropology journals. During the Merotic period Nubians used a acholic beverage to treat infection that naturally produced tetracyline

See the following:
http://www.emory.edu/COLLEGE/ANTHROPOLOGY/FACULTY/ANTGA/

[[b) Apparently Ms Filer is not aware of, or simply dismisses Herodotus' tale of the "Long-Lived Ethiopians"("most of them lived to be a hundred and twenty years old, while some even went beyond that age" - Herodotus) -- Ms. Filer's Nubians of course...]

We must be careful when quoting Herodotus,for many times his anthropologic and physical descriptions are accurate but much of his comments about social life are not. You have to remeber that it was both Egyptian and Nubian priests who presented information to Herodotus. Plus it might be simply an interpretation of ''Long lived'' which might indicate that simply Aethiopies[Nubians] might have a longer history than other human beings or are amung the first people.

Wally,I am glad to see you using more up to date sources. There are various books written by Rosalind Jansen on Growing up in Ancient Egypt and Growing Old in Ancient Egypt. Library material might be difficult to obtain but both these books will answer your questions. Something also that might be helpful is ancient Egyptian medicine by an author with the last name Nun. A comprehensive study of the mummies has been undertaken and their history of illness.

I didn't know of this part of AE's reputation. I know ancient greek culture was thought to be liberally homosexual, but AE?...

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Originally posted by sunstorm2004:
[b]AE soceity probabaly had homosexuals but not as exagerated as some people make it out to be.

I didn't know of this part of AE's reputation. I know ancient greek culture was thought to be liberally homosexual, but AE?...

I've also read a version of the negative confessions with one part reading "I have not committed homosexuality."...[/B]

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On the other hand,there is a 6th dyansty text that describes midnight encounters with the pharoah Pepi II and a certain general Sissine. It's not quite clear what to make of this text.

Only at the entrance to the tomb are the two men portrayed in a fishing and fowling scene with each of their wives and their children. In every other portrayal in which the two men are shown together, Ni-ankh-khnum is positioned either to the right of or behind Khnum-hotep, just as a wife would be portrayed. When the two men are portrayed separately as in an elaborate banqueting scene, Ni-ankh-khnum is shown holding a lotus blossom, a construct which appears nowhere else during this period except when portraying wives or women. The two men are frequently portrayed holding hands, always with Ni-ankh-khnum behind Khnum-hotep, just as a wife following her husband is portrayed. At the south end of the tomb‘s rock cut chamber in the aforementioned banquet scene, Khnum-hotep is seated to the left. Behind him is the remnant of a "wife" image. His wife, Khenti-kaus, dutifully stands behind her husband with the remnants of one hand resting on his right arm and the other grasping his left shoulder. The image has been plastered over so that only the shadow of the image is visible. Ni-ankh-khnum, who sits to the right in the scene, is not portrayed with a wife behind him at all. An inscription, associated with the musical director who faces singers and harpists in the register below the banqueting principles, reads, “play the song about the two divine brothers”.

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I wrote:
[a) 'Nubian' culture hasn't been sufficiently studied to determine the average life expectancy of that population..]
Ausar responded:
That's not exactly true. Plenty of skeletal evidence has been studied of Nubia from A-Group to X-group and up to the Middle Ages. You might find these studies in peer reviwed physical anthropology journals. During the Merotic period Nubians used a acholic beverage to treat infection that naturally produced tetracyline

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OK, not exactly true, but what I had in mind when writing this was the Nubian culture still lying buried beneath Lake Nasser!

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I wrote:

[[b) Apparently Ms Filer is not aware of, or simply dismisses Herodotus' tale of the "Long-Lived Ethiopians"("most of them lived to be a hundred and twenty years old, while some even went beyond that age" - Herodotus) -- Ms. Filer's Nubians of course...]

Ausar response:
We must be careful when quoting Herodotus,for many times his anthropologic and physical descriptions are accurate but much of his comments about social life are not. You have to remeber that it was both Egyptian and Nubian priests who presented information to Herodotus. Plus it might be simply an interpretation of ''Long lived'' which might indicate that simply Aethiopies[Nubians] might have a longer history than other human beings or are amung the first people.

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Of course you read Herodotus with the same scrutiny with which you read anything, like the text in the link that you referenced. Herodotus also expressed his belief that the Black races (and we know the ones he was referring to...) were black because the black man's semen was black!

In his passage regarding the long-lived Ethiopians, Herodotus was not being euphemistic, he stated clearly that they lived to be one hundred and ten years or so. I used this to show that any scholar, familiar with Herodotus, would at least think perhaps that this population, the catch-all Nubians/Ethiopians, probably lived longer than 30 years.

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Ausar wrote:

Wally,I am glad to see you using more up to date sources. There are various books written by Rosalind Jansen on Growing up in Ancient Egypt and Growing Old in Ancient Egypt. Library material might be difficult to obtain but both these books will answer your questions. Something also that might be helpful is ancient Egyptian medicine by an author with the last name Nun. A comprehensive study of the mummies has been undertaken and their history of illness.

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I have already stated my opinion about so-called 'up to date sources.' I have yet to find any 'updated source' which raises the historically significant point that the word "Ethiopia" is derived from the Egyptian word "Ethosh" and not from the Greek, etc., etc...

Ute - Uterus
(Now here's what Western dictionaries tell you - "Etymology: Latin, belly, womb; probably akin to Greek hoderos belly, Sanskrit udara")
I think it's probably akin to the Kemetian word Ute from which the Greeks added...

Kat; Shedi; Kefen - Vagina

Smai - to join; to copulate

S_teken m hime (Oti) - 'to penetrate the female'

Honen; Honnu - Penis (Etymology (?) honen - to plow > honnuti = fellaheen )

Honnut - Clitoris

Mhu - Coition; 'the begetter'

Ben; BenBen - erection; ejaculate

Tata; Dada - to masturbate

Njmjnmiu - love joys (from Njm; Ntchem; Noutm - "sweet")

NjmNjeme(t)! - a Ho!

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Originally posted by ausar:
Wally,are you getting these terms from E.A. Wallis Budge dictionary? Could cite your reference and page number whenever you post something. Just want you to do this to cross reference what you cite. That's always vital.

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Everyone who is interested in "Ancient Egypt and Egyptology" should, at the least, have access to this text (your local public library or college library).

--To use it is very basic as it contains an index of English words, so for example if one wishes to look up the word(s) for hair, the index listing will show the page(s) which contain the Kemetian word(s)for hair.

--One should also be aware of the fact that Budge uses the standard Westernized method of interspersing an 'e' in between consonants, even when he has a Coptic, Hebrew, Persian, or other reference source which reveals the actual vowel. For example, the Kemetian word for name is written 'rn' and Budge renders it as Ren, when he knows that it is Ran in both Coptic and Yoruba. That's why some Egyptologists dispense with the vowels altogether and write the word as it's written in Kemetian.

--However, it is an invaluable text and it contains a lot of words, and in many cases, words that are very revealing of the Kemetian ideology...

PS: I personally use the African reference, when it is available. For Example, the Kemetian word for Uterus or Vagina is written 3ti whereas in Coptic it is Oti, Oute, etc., therefore I personally write the word as Oti or Ute...

When I get some time I plan to learn Sahidic Coptic and maybe the Boharic dialect. Most scholars will tell you little evidence exists of what AE language sounded like when spoken.

I believe the answer to this is in Upper Egyptian dialects in colloquial Arabic. Despite the Arabic loan words,it still contains a good portion of the AE language. Al l the time people complain on the East Bank of Luxor they cannot understand the people there when they talk. Same is true in Cairene settings.

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Originally posted by sunstorm2004:
[b]-- Sexual mores in Kemet

I like that one. When Kemetans had sex, were they more like white people or black people? [/B]

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ROFLOL!!!

good one

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Originally posted by Osiris II:
This, of course, is only one tomb among ever so many, but it may give a slight idea of AE's take on homosexuality.
Whatever believed through-out the land, obviously these two people wanted to spend eternity together.
www.egyptology.com/niankhkhnum_khnumhotep/ (underline between niankhkhnum and khnumhotep)

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Spending "eternity" together is one thing, but some of this could be exaggerated, since even today it's culturally accepted for Egyptian men to hold hands, and I also heard that they can kiss eachother on the cheeks like the Italians do. But they said it was illegal for them to kiss the opposite sex in public- weird.

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Originally posted by ausar:
Also be aware that Coptic comes in various regional dialects like the two main ones are Sahidic and Boharic. We also have branches of this language divided into sub-categories. Sahidic is the cloest to the anceint Egyptian tongue and moreso than Boharic which contains more Greek words in overall vocabulary.

When I get some time I plan to learn Sahidic Coptic and maybe the Boharic dialect. Most scholars will tell you little evidence exists of what AE language sounded like when spoken.

I believe the answer to this is in Upper Egyptian dialects in colloquial Arabic. Despite the Arabic loan words,it still contains a good portion of the AE language. Al l the time people complain on the East Bank of Luxor they cannot understand the people there when they talk. Same is true in Cairene settings.

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Not just in modern Egypt but in African countries in Western Africa you can see two males holding hands. Which is why I think sometimes these depictions are simply a matter of interpretation. People are bringing their European Victorian sensiblity on to a ancient Egyptian culture.

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Originally posted by Osiris II:

There is a big difference between the modern-day Egyptians holding hands or giving one another a "peck" on the cheek in greeting, and a carving showing two men pelvis-to-pelvis, with lips almost touching. As I said in a previous post, it is only one tomb of many. The majority of the tombs show male-female couples spending eternity together. Is sexual mores so inhibited today that we cannot accept the fact that two men may have been in love?
Although both had wives shown at the entrance to the tomb, in all other scenes only the men are present--the wife of the one being plastered over, and the other showing no wife. One takes the position commonly taken by a wife, behind the male figure, or sharing an banquet together.
Early Egyptologists, filled with Victorian outrage, said the men must have been brothers! But such has shown not to be true. Again, the carving of the two men in extremely close positions nullifies any such concept. Even brothers would not stand in such a way.
Face it--it's an example of homosexuality in ancient Egypt.

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Most people would just assume these two in the mastaba were homosexuals but one must understand that hand gestures like the ''hennu'' and ''lua'' are symbolic poses that were employed to have spirtual and symbolic meanings.

I am aware there are homosexual references in the Middle Kingdom and in other periods. I pointed out a story myself about Pepi II and his general. I am just trying to get people to critically think about the situlation.

Most people would just assume these two in the mastaba were homosexuals but one must understand that hand gestures like the ''hennu'' and ''lua'' are symbolic poses that were employed to have spirtual and symbolic meanings.