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Originally posted by Orionix:
So according to the 36-tone chromatic scale what color do you think the ancient Egyptians were before the Middle Kingdom?

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Sight Writes:

Based upon the fact that the EARLIEST/ORIGINAL AE had distal limb elongation indicative of tropical adaptation I have to assume that they were in the same melanin range as other Africans of recent (Holocene)Sub-Saharan origin.

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So you mean to say that they looked like what we today call "jet black" or "dark as night" (35-36 in my scale)

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Originally posted by rasol:
[QUOTE]So you mean to say that they looked like what we today call "jet black" or "dark as night" (35-36 in my scale)

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Your thinking rates; 3 out of 10 in terms of perception; and 2 out of 10 on the integrity scale; however you rank a 9 out of 10 in terms of bias. So why even pretend otherwise? Just cut & paste some more plagiarised nonsense and we'll continue "the game".

Thought Writes:

On a side note, one of the interesting things about this melanin map is that the areas that have the "darkest" Africans also seem to have the "tallest" Africans.

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Orionix:
And you are clearly an insecure guy.
Genetics is a more accurate tool than linguistics for detecting ancestry. Haplotype XI (11) and IX (9) are not one of the same. Seems like you have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

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You are must truly “be on something”. I also think you have serious problems understanding English language, because your answers seem to be way of base, from addressing what has been repeatedly said in my comment. Here is the full quote you provided earlier, and now you are pathetically crediting it to me as the source: talk about plagiarizing; not giving the credit where it is due, even when this unsavory act of yours is pointed out on a regular basis. Here is the full quote of what you provided us, from another thread:

An earlier Orionix reference:
"...the present study on the Y-chromosome haplotype shows that there are northern and southern Y-haplotypes in Egypt. The main Y-haplotype V is a northern haplotype, with a significantly different frequency in the north compared to the south of the country: frequencies of haplotype V are 51.9% in the Delta (location A), 24.2% in Upper Egypt (location B), and 17.4% in Lower Nubia (location C). On the other hand, haplotype IV is a typical southern haplotype, being almost absent in A (1.2%), and preponderant in B (27.3%) and C (39.1%). Haplotype XI[important in Ethiopia] also shows a preponderance in the south (in C, 30.4%; B, 28.8%) compared to the north (11.7% in A) of the country.”

Given that the haplotype XI is E-M78, and is part of the PN2 Clade (of sub-Sahara African origin), we have this from another Orionix source:

The cluster E-M78 was found in eastern Africa at an average frequency of 17.7%, with the highest frequencies in the three Cushitic-speaking groups: the Borana from Kenya (71.4%), the Oromo from Ethiopia (32.0%), and the Somali (52.2%). Outside of eastern Africa, it was found only in two subjects from Egypt (3.6%) and in one Arab from Morocco.

And you were saying…about the haplotype XI?

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Orionix:
Blacks were not the majority in ancient Egypt. The people who you see in Egypt today are mostly the same.
You need to stop making things up just because it fits you emotionally.

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Careful, if you “spin” too much, you could end up dizzy.

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Orionix:
The only crackpot is what you have inside your head.

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Remember that “no sense” trait of yours? It is kicking in.

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Orionix:
Genetic tests indicate that there were no significant demographic replacements in Egypt. The people you see today are basically the same.

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Orionix:
Dude you're clearly a masochist.

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…which I take it means, that you are a self-proclaimed rapist, who has no bounds gender-wise.

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Orionix:
Ethiopians, Somalis, Eritreans, Djiboutis and southern Arabians all fucked each other long enough since 10,000 years ago.

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You are truly one perverted , psychedelic and misguided individual as proven by your above commentary.

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Orionix:
Egyptians are not "half-castes". They were always brown Africans, at least since the last 5,000 years. Look at the map where Egypt is located geographically and you will understand.

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Remember, we were talking about your logic, not mine.

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Orionix:
At least I'm not a masochist.

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…you are the psychedelic rapist.

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Orionix:
Molecular population genetics (what is used today) is real science

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...NOT the twisted and manipulated sense, that you have been trying to use in your plagiarized genetic sources.

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Orionix:
And this comes from the same retard who thinks blacks predominated Egypt. All tomb paintings I've seen clearly shut you down. You have no arguments.

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Boy, if I am a retard, then you must certainly be filthy retard. Egyptians have painted themselves in blue, jet black, brown, yellow; going by your logic, all these are supposed to represent their true colors. You are right that I have no arguments to make…with someone, who can’t make any sense.

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Orionix:
Africa is a continent

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Hooray. We are making some slight progress here.

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Orionix:
, look a race, culture or phenotype… therefore I can say that most ancient Egyptians were not black.

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On second thought, perhaps not.

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Orionix:

supercar:
Vulgarity can't help Orionix. You posted on Haplotype XI in Ethiopia. Don't you remember? Go back and search the relevant thread' Then ask yourself objectively, what your inability to remember your own past actions says about your mental health.

Well that's all that you deserved.
And you're a liar. I didn't post this study. It was someone else here. Haplotype XI is not so common in Ethiopia compared to Eurasia.
What I said is that Y-chromosome E3b is east African in origin and that mtDNA haplotype L can be found in high frequencies throughout Africa.
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supercar:
Btw: are you still claiming the Horn of Africa is not a part of Sub Saharan Africa, or are you denying ever saying such

The Horn of Africa is an extension of land between the Indian Ocean and the Gulf of Aden, is occupied by Ethiopia, Eritrea, Somalia, and Djibouti, whose cultures have been linked throughout their long history.
Geneticists consider the horn of Africa as a separate entity from other parts of Africa then so do I. The horn has always served as a corridor for migrations out and back to Africa. This is the case since the Neolithic.
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supercar:
Are you still claiming that Berbers are never Black (?) or are you denying ever saying so?

No, I didn't say that. There are plenty black Berbers but the original ones weren't.

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Talk about a bungled mentality…can’t even address the quotes to the actual source!

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Originally posted by rasol:
Thought: Linking dark skin to tropical limb ratio perhaps?

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 16 November 2004).]

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Thought Writes:

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Originally posted by rasol:
He has done that to Ausar and I as well.
When too many people tell you you're wrong, one solution is to conclude that they are all the same person.

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Originally posted by rasol:
He has done that to Ausar and I as well.
When too many people tell you you're wrong, one solution is to conclude that they are all the same person.

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Too many people?

Dude you should get your head out of your ass. There are no more than 3-5 people here, some being aliases.

The Egytpians were not "black". Blacks were not the majority in ancient Egypt.

Cavalli-Sforza writes that the San of southern Africa were as far as Egypt some 18,000 ago and they aren't "black", just brown.

Afro-centrics like you are very idiotic, insecure people.

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Originally posted by rasol:
The San ethnic group is indiginous to Southern Africa, and should not be confused with Khoisanoid (a phenotype); and can't help rescue your already incoherent argument. Neither can the profanity. You just sound silly.

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Let me make it clear. You have no arguments. You post stuff i didn't even write, you're just a damn Idiot.

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Welcome to the race board Orionix. These guys are preoccupied with race. If you stay around here long enough they will convince you that we are all'really, secretly' black.

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It is because they are insecure with themselves. Why do they desperately try to prove that Ancient Egyptians were black Africans. It doesn't make much sense to me. Africans had other civlizations besides Egypt.

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The Egytpians were not "black". Blacks were not the majority in ancient Egypt.

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In modern Egypt no. But in ancient Egypt Yes! The majority of the population was concentrated around the Luxor-Aswan area which is still predominately black today. Most people in this region are dark brown to black.

Most people don't know but many early anthropologist believed the skeletal remains of Northern Africa were Khoisan. This was the Metchnoid remains which also at one time were tossed around in speculation.

Not all Khoisan people look like the ones in Southern Africa, and the ones in Tanzania are black. The Hadza are the oldest of the Khoisan population.

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Originally posted by ausar:
In modern Egypt no. But in ancient Egypt Yes! The majority of the population was concentrated around the Luxor-Aswan area which is still predominately black today. Most people in this region are dark brown to black.

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So are you saying that Northern and Middler Egypt was just empty by that time?

However i was talking about the San and Tutsi, who have relatively lighter skin tones compared to other southern Africans. 2 million Tutsi were killed because of that.

Also there are groups in Northern Sudan who call themselves Sudanese Arabs.

These people are predominantly darker skinned compared to the average Cairen but still lighter compared to the average southern Sudanese.

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Not all Khoisan people look like the ones in Southern Africa, and the ones in Tanzania are black. The Hadza are the oldest of the Khoisan population

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So are you saying that Northern and Middler Egypt was just empty by that time?

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Welcome to the race board Orionix.

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It is because they are insecure with themselves.[/B]

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Originally posted by rasol:
True, and as even the Khoi and San of Southern Africa are classified in national census as Blacks, it doesn't help Orionix in the least. As an aside Ethiopians and Khoisan groups have been found to share the oldest Y chromosome clades in genetic studies; meaning that they are among the oldest and "most" indiginous groups of Africans.

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All humans originated in SE Ethiopia.

As Ausar said, the Egyptians were by and large dark but they weren't ebony skinned Central Africans though. They looked more like present-day Nubians, Ethiopians and Somalis (32-35).

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However i was talking about the San and Tutsi, who have relatively lighter skin tones compared to other southern Africans. 2 million Tutsi were killed because of that.
[/B]

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Both the Tutsi and Hutu of Rwanda are quite dark. And it is the Eurocentric Hamite myth (almost as ridiculous as the ideas you are espousing), that exacerbated the ethnic conflict in Rwanda:

Africa's most violent large scale conflicts manifest a virulent misinterpretation of group consciousness constructed along lines of colonial classification of African ethnicity. The classification divides Africans into three groups, Hamite, Bantu, and Nilote. This is a devastating racial coding based on erroneous assumptions advanced by racial supremacists and misguided scholars. http://www.africanfront.com/research/research1.php

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Originally posted by rasol:
More idiocy. The San are not ethnically related to the Tutsi, other than the fact that they are Black Africans.

Both the Tutsi and Huti of Rwanda are quite dark. And it is the Eurocentric Hamite myth (almost as ridiculous as the ideas you are espousing), that exacerbated the ethnic conflict in Rwanda

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Please stop blaming the whites for everything. Blacks are not perfect.

You didn't see all San and Tutsi. There are quite light skinned ones. The original Tutsi were descended from Cushitics, this is why many of them are lighter skinned.

Cavalli-Sforza writes that the San might have been as far as Egypt.

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All humans originated in SE Ethiopia.

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So are you saying that Northern and Middler Egypt was just empty by that time?

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No, because most of the population density in the north was mostly around the Delta. Since pre-dyanstic times it recieved influxes from Palestine and Mesopotamia. During the dynastic time also Nubian mercenaries were often settled in the Delta as well. In the Tell-Amarna tablets it records Nubian mercenaries being stationed along the border of Palestine[Caanan].

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Also there are groups in Northern Sudan who call themselves Sudanese Arabs

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Yes, there are also Beja people, Nuba people[don't confuse with Nubians], Baggara,and other various ethnic groups. The Baggara claim to be Arabs but cannot be differentiated from Southern Sudanese. The Jaaliyin are Arabized Nubians. Not to mention in regions like Dongola and on the southern Egyptian border Mameluke, Turkish, and Albanians have intermingled with the Nubians. Ask any Sudanese about Magaraab Nubians living in Dongola and other regions.

During the Middle Ages when Arabs were allowed to police portions of Upper Egypt many were driven southward into Northern Sudan. Some of these Arab tribes still exist in Sohag , Minya, and Asyut. The same with the Ja'afra in Aswan. In Upper Egpypt there is a pusedo caste system with the Arab tribes on top and the indigenous Fellahin on the bottom. During the Middle Ages the Arabs used Fellahin fields to graze their live stock. No Arabs were allowed to own land so many just became parasites to the indigenous Fellahin.

Eventually many of these tribes were scattered further south into Sudan mingling either with the Beja or Nubian populations there. The Arabs had been coming to Sudan from the Red Sea area where many used the gold fields there.

Technically most Sudanese are not literaly Arabs except in speech. Some few are bedouin tribes but are very diluted. The only real bedouin tribe in Sudan are the Rashadiah who migrated across the Red Sea to Eriteria[sp] and some know reside in Sudan.

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These people are predominantly darker skinned compared to the average Cairen but still lighter compared to the average southern Sudanese.

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Which only shows the diversity of the Nile Valley. Many Upper Egyptians since the 1950's have moved into Cairo. Most frequently they live in slum districts. My very own family resides in one of these developments. The Southern Sudanese are probabaly the darkest of all Africans.

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However i was talking about the San and Tutsi, who have relatively lighter skin tones compared to other southern Africans. 2 million Tutsi were killed because of that

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What does the Tutsi have to do with the San?
The pgmyies[Twa] in the Equatorial forest zone are relatively lighter than most Africans to. This does not mean intermixture with non-Africans. The Hutu and Tutsi situlation is more complex than just pigementation. These two groups already were at odds before the Belgium came but was intensified by pusedo Anthropological concepts like the ''Hamitic'' myth that gave Hutu nationalists and excuse to reclaim their land from the foregin invaders which were the Tutsi. The Belgium identified with the Tutsi giving them the false recognition and status of some lost ''white'' race deep in Africa.

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Please stop blaming the whites for everything.

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What does the Tutsi have to do with the San?

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Originally posted by rasol:
Calm down. My post made no mention of "whites" (whatever that is).
If you disagree with Dan Kashagama's article can you explain your point of view in a coherent way, without resorting to profanity and hysterical sub-mental ranting?

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About the Hamites being white is a fallacy.

Actually Ethiopians were also classified as white.

However Genetic studies proved over and over that they are not white.

PCA was used to provide a visual representation of population clustering based on haplotype variation (fig. 4). The first principal component (X-axis) accounts for 55.1% of the variance, and the second principal component (Y-axis) accounts for 10.5% of the variance.

In general, populations cluster by geographic origin. The most distinct separation is between African and non-African populations. The northeastern-African that is, the Ethiopian and Somali populations are located centrally between sub-Saharan African and non-African populations.

Studies suggest a recent and primary subdivision between African and non-African populations, high levels of divergence among African populations, and a recent shared common ancestry of non-African populations, from a population originating in Africa.

Short Tandem-Repeat Polymorphism/Alu Haplotype Variation at the PLAT Locus: Implications for Modern Human Origins

Anceint Egyptians were related to Ethiopians and Somalis. They are all in the NE African cluster.

Jean Hiernaux The People of Africa

Hiernaux

In terms of complexion here is a good cross reference of various people some from Central Africa, Western Africa, and Southern Sudan:

[Mutumbo from Zaire]

[Alek Wek is a Dinka from Southern Sudan]

Alek Wek again http://www.gosahara.org/wolof.jpg

Wolof people in Senegal

Fela Kuti Yoruba singer from Nigeria

Northern Sudanese female singer

BTW, you can make anybody appear darker and lighter in many cases by lighting and color settings on your monitor.

Jean Hiernaux The People of Africa

Hiernaux

In terms of complexion here is a good cross reference of various people some from Central Africa, Western Africa, and Southern Sudan:

[Mutumbo from Zaire]

[Alek Wek is a Dinka from Southern Sudan]

Alek Wek again http://www.gosahara.org/wolof.jpg

Wolof people in Senegal

Fela Kuti Yoruba singer from Nigeria

Northern Sudanese female singer

BTW, you can make anybody appear darker and lighter in many cases by lighting and color settings on your monitor.

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Originally posted by Orionix:

I think this table represents the 36 most visible skin tones:

So i guess according to you, people whose skin color is 28 are already considered black, right?

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Lest we forget about raising the bar, look at this:

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Originally posted by Orionix:
All humans originated in SE Ethiopia.

As Ausar said, the Egyptians were by and large dark but they weren't ebony skinned Central Africans though. They looked more like present-day Nubians, Ethiopians and Somalis (32-35).

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Now to be "black" you must be ebony skinned! To hit this point home, what should we call people with skin tone ranging 32-35 as seen on your own scale?

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Originally posted by YuhiVII:
Now to be "black" you must be ebony skinned! To hit this point home, what should we call people with skin tone ranging 32-35 as seen on your own scale?

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33-34 is dark brown. 35-36 is ebony skinned. Considering the fact being of mixed backround i am 28 in this scale. However take the fact that in the US people who are 26-36 are already black.

[This message has been edited by YuhiVII (edited 16 November 2004).][/B][/QUOTE]