quote:Originally posted by neo*geo: Ok if that's your conclusion the next logical question is did the Egyptians ever use the noun form of "Kem" to describe Africans beyond Egypt's borders? Did they see themselves as the only black people on the continent?
We know what words the Kemetians used for soil, people & color. The examples were provided in the intro notes, in case you missed them. The question now, is do you know any other meaning to the word "Kemet", which is supported by the "scholarly" evidence you advocated earlier?
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I answered that in saying the AEs classified Rm Rmt & Nhsw as blacks while classifying Tmhw and Aamw as reds.
Thought Writes:
It is tempting to associate the Rm Rmt with the E-M78 haplotype carrying East Africans and Nhsw with the E-M2 haplotype Central Africans that BOTH populated Ancient Egypt.
quote: Why am I the only one who is asked to quote my sources?
You want an honest answer?
Because you say things that aren't true, and when asked to support it, you quite naturally can't.
Your next comment is a perfect example:
quote: I'm only stating what is common knowledge for anyone who's read journals and books on ancient Egypt. There is a book abou women of ancient Egypt called "Silent Images" which discusses Khemsit. On Pepi, the 6th dynasty is a continuation of the 5th dynasty which, according to Mantheo, originated in Elephantine, Egypt's southern frontier.
...and, these books document mdw ntr references to Kemsit and Pepi as Nehasy?
quote:You can't have it both ways so which is it fellas?
No contradiction in anyone elses statements has been located by you. Meanwhile, you have not given us a source for your statement. We are still patiently and politely waiting.
quote:Originally posted by Thought2: {Why am I the only one who is asked to quote my sources? I'm only stating what is common knowledge for anyone who's read journals and books on ancient Egypt.}
Thought Writes:
neo, I don't want you to feel picked on. I ask everyone for their sources if they make out of the norm or suspect statements. I think you make many good points, but I disagree with you on some things as well.
I read a lot of books from many different sources so while I may throw some things out there just to provoke objectivity. Egyptology isn't an exact science. Most of the details that we know about the ancients is speculation which is why I'm apprehensive about accepting any one conclusion over other possible conslusions. If truth is what we all are seeking then we must ask and answer all questions that might arise.
quote:Originally posted by Thought2: {There is a book abou women of ancient Egypt called "Silent Images" which discusses Khemsit.}
Thought Writes:
And in this book the author claims that she is from the Nehsi?
No. The author "speculates" that she may have been Nubian. Not enough is known about her to say exactly where her origins lie.
quote:Originally posted by Thought2: Thought Writes:
And this is where the Nehsi are from, Elephantine?
Egypt's frontier is where the population of upper Egypt and lower Nubia overlap...
quote:Originally posted by neo*geo: Wrong. I said that I wasn't wasn't aware of any ethnic group or nation that named itself based on skin color. You have yet to name a nation or ethnic group who's name translates to "black people". You read my question incorrectly and I still don't think you comprehend what I'm asking...
Oh then you didnt write the following, someone stole your id and did it.
quote:Originally posted by neo*geo: My point is that there is no point in history where Africans called themselves "black people" prior to encounters with white Europeans
Some day neo*geo is going to take the good advice he as given some time ago.
Never trick yourself into arguing out of personal frustration. When you do that, the contradictions just make you appear to look foolish, which causes you to get even more frustrated....and leap at any argument that you think may save face, but will likely just contradict something you wrote earlier. And don't underestimate others and think they won't notice. They do, whether they call you on it or not.
quote:Originally posted by neo*geo: Egypt's frontier is where the population of upper Egypt and lower Nubia overlap...
Thought Writes:
My understanding of Egypt's border is that it waxed and wanned. For example during the Naqada II phase the Egyptian Kingdoms and Culture were restricted to Upper Egypt and Lower Nubia. During Second Intermediate period it was restricted to Upper Egypt. During the New Kingdom Egypt's border reached the fourth cataract.
quote:Originally posted by supercar: We know what words the Kemetians used for soil, people & color. The examples were provided in the intro notes, in case you missed them. The question now, is do you know any other meaning to the word "Kemet", which is supported by the "scholarly" evidence you advocated earlier?
I wouldn't be the person to argue for the mainstream Egyptological opinion since I haven't really studied ancient Egyptian language.
And while I have given the Afrocentric definition of "Kemet" some thought, I'm not willing to accept a view that is almost exclusively held by one group of historians.
The "Two Lands" explanation seems like the most sensical to me. The "black land" representing the fertile soil along the Nile river and the "Red Land" representing the desert. But there is a certain amount of skepticism about this explanation as well.
I'm open to all points of view.
"Egypt's African connection By Gamal Nkrumah There has always been something seductive about Egypt. But to Afrocentrics, the many mainly African American scholars who prefer to view history from an African-centred perspective, the fascination with Egypt is coloured by an obsession with the racial make-up of Ancient Egypt. Names can often be contentious. And none more so to today's self-styled Afrocentrics, than Egypt. Afrocentrics never refer to Ancient Egypt by the Greek derived name. They prefer Kemet, or KMT -- the 'Black Land' -- the word the Ancient Egyptians themselves used to describe their country. While the vast majority of Egyptologists would tell you that Kemet refers to the black soil of the Nile Valley, Afrocentrists claim that it refers to the colour of the inhabitants of the Nile Valley in much the same sense as contemporary Sudan refers to the colour of its people. " http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/1999/428/tr3.htm
posted
Just to address a few of Abaza's irritating comments:
quote:Yes, why would a group of people call themselves Blacks, especially when many of them were NOT Black and some were almost White.
The name could've been established early on, (before much diversity), and in a different context. Imagine if Kemet were under assault from Asiatics, an assault with a racist element continuing the one that cleared the Arabian peninsula of it's original inhabitants... Then the thing for AE to rally around is their roots.
Assault jews for being jewish and they'll rally around their jewishness. Assault blacks for being black and they'll rally around blackness, whatever their literal skin color. Assault short people for being short... Get it?
Not saying that this happened but I offer it up as a hypothetical scenario.
Also when Narmer conquered up from the south, perhaps he was taking land back from "reds"? Would asserting AE the "black nation" make sense in that scenario? Yes.
Distinguishing AE as "the black nation", in a community of nations that was mostly "red" would've made sense, too.
Again, I'm not saying this all happened, but offer it up just as a mental exercise to address your questions.
quote:I had a chance to ask some of friends about their impression of the Ancient Egyptians, and without a hesitation, they said that the A/E's were not Black Africans. Mind you, this is not coming from a white person, but an American-Chinese and others.
So what?? I know of Koreans, Philipinos, Japanese and others who see the AE as black. Indeed some of these cultures see Arabs as black. In Japan, a swarthy, curly-haired Arab would be called "kukojin" just as I would. Plus, your "friends" probably know that it would break your heart (and self-esteem) to associate Egypt with any blackness.
There's also the fact that part of racist culture is to denigrate the darkies PLUS divide them against one another by any means you can -- color, culture, class, gender, generation, whatever. If your friends are in America, they know the drill and their place within it. And if they're *your* friends they're probably as racist and white-wannabee as you are. They know you, and wouldn't insult you by suggesting the AE were "black" at all.
quote:All these people with a Political Agenda, should look at the Mirror and touch their Noses, because the Truth is right in front of their FACE........There is no Doubt about it, just like your nose......It will not Go Away.
The images, testimony and linguistics of AE are right in front of your face and never going away. Take a look at image thread. You see people painted dark and plenty of people with "black" features. Here -- right in front of YOUR face:
Pharaoh Sahure -- not a black man?
AE was probably the "New York City" of its time -- an economic and cultural center attracting lots of different people, and more diverse as time marched on. But as surely as New York was founded by the Dutch, AE was founded by people from "ta Seti", and had plenty of such people as an integral part of the society, kings and commoners.
Live with it.
quote:Why would people with Light Brown to Dark Brown complexions call themselves Blacks!!
People in the U.S. today, light brown to dark brown, call themselves black, because it's in their interests to do so, and because they like being black. We even have "wiggers" who emulate the culture, much in the way that people came into egypt and became egyptian. It happens.
quote:Outsiders, were ALL enemies of EGYPT....and BARBARIANS, Including the NUBIANS.....If You want Proof look at the picture of King Tut's Sandals, you'll see that he Steps on all the Enemies of Egypt, including the Blacks.
...Coming from a True Egyptian, Born and Raised in the land Of Egypt?? lol!! Learn your history. Your statement above proves it's not where you were born that gives you knowledge of history, so please -- shut up about being a "true egyptian". Your statement above is an embarassment.
quote:There is still a little Hope for You, you just have to wakeup from your Dream Land....and get Back to Reality.........
There's NO hope for you, because your self esteem is tied to your racial "proximity" to something you are NOT. If Kemet were to rise again tomorrow, as you foretell, it still couldn't be on top in your eyes, because people like you can see no higher than "white". This is why you try to distance Kemet from any blackness, yet maintain that they were "near caucasians". You would judge the civilization by it's proximity to "whiteness", as you likely judge yourself (and everyone else). Transplantation to U.S. society has likely *traumatized* your self-esteem. Back home you were "white", but here you're not. Oh well. Grow up.
----
That all being said, I'm not completely convinced that Kemet means "black nation".
Nor am I convinced that it means "black soil" or "black land" because that evidence is WEAK. Rasol & Wally are doing a good job of showing it to be weak.
It doesn't have to mean either. And kemetans needn't be black nor white. But within the modern racial equation, they were closer to "black", especially since "whiteness" has historically been about purity. This is as clear as the way northern italians think of southern italians.
The images Kemetans left us remind me of modern people from the Dominican Republic, with the same range of skin colors.
Anyway, hopefully one day we can dispose of the racial equation.
----
quote:THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE!! ALWAYS LISTEN TO YOUR HEART & SOUL!! // PEACE ******* ABAZA
Yeah right. You don't care at all about the truth, but only about your racist dogma. You're not white and never will be, so hang it up.
[This message has been edited by sunstorm2004 (edited 12 December 2004).]
[This message has been edited by sunstorm2004 (edited 12 December 2004).]
Posts: 237 | From: New York, NY, USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: Oh then you didnt write the following, someone stole your id and did it.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by neo*geo: My point is that there is [b]no point in history where Africans called themselves "black people" prior to encounters with white Europeans
[/b][/quote]
Mind you, it was 3am here when I had originally posted that question. I didn't frame it correctly as I've been shown. No big deal, I've repeated myself enough times today for everyone to understand what I meant...
quote:Originally posted by neo*geo: And while I have given the Afrocentric definition of "Kemet" some thought, I'm not willing to accept a view that is almost exclusively held by one group of historians.
Thought Writes:
Wouldn't Eurocentrists make-up ONE GROUP OF HISTORIANS, or do you believe that Eurocentrists are "broad minded" and have a range of views while "Afrocentrists" do not?
quote:Originally posted by Thought2: Thought Writes:
Wouldn't Eurocentrists make-up ONE GROUP OF HISTORIANS, or do you believe that Eurocentrists are "broad minded" and have a range of views while "Afrocentrists" do not?
I wouldn't label Zahi Hawass "Eurocentric". If anything, he is "Egyptocentric." He is just one of the authors that I have often read.
quote:Originally posted by neo*geo: I wouldn't label Zahi Hawass "Eurocentric". If anything, he is "Egyptocentric." He is just one of the authors that I have often read.
You mentioned Diop(s) theory earlier.
Have you read Diop's African Origin of Civilisations, or Civilisation vs. Barbarism?
quote:Originally posted by neo*geo: I wouldn't be the person to argue for the mainstream Egyptological opinion since I haven't really studied ancient Egyptian language.
And while I have given the Afrocentric definition of "Kemet" some thought, I'm not willing to accept a view that is almost exclusively held by one group of historians.
The "Two Lands" explanation seems like the most sensical to me. The "black land" representing the fertile soil along the Nile river and the "Red Land" representing the desert. But there is a certain amount of skepticism about this explanation as well.
I'm open to all points of view.
"Egypt's African connection By Gamal Nkrumah There has always been something seductive about Egypt. But to Afrocentrics, the many mainly African American scholars who prefer to view history from an African-centred perspective, the fascination with Egypt is coloured by an obsession with the racial make-up of Ancient Egypt. Names can often be contentious. And none more so to today's self-styled Afrocentrics, than Egypt. Afrocentrics never refer to Ancient Egypt by the Greek derived name. They prefer Kemet, or KMT -- the 'Black Land' -- the word the Ancient Egyptians themselves used to describe their country. While the vast majority of Egyptologists would tell you that Kemet refers to the black soil of the Nile Valley, Afrocentrists claim that it refers to the colour of the inhabitants of the Nile Valley in much the same sense as contemporary Sudan refers to the colour of its people. " http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/1999/428/tr3.htm
Well Neo, when you make statements, you had better be prepared to be loaded with something to support those assertions. You claimed earlier that "both" sides of the debate have "scholarly" evidence to support their position, but I have yet to see the one you were supposedly referring to for the counter argument to what was said in the intro notes. Surely, if you say there is a counter argument with "scholarly" evidence, you ought to have some clue as to what those "scholarly" evidences are. This Orionix-tactic of posting stuff critical about so-called homogeneous group of Afrocentrics, in no way helps your yet-to be-made argument here. Once again, the post has no relevance to whom you are debating here, and what your obligations are, as far as providing supporting material for your position!
quote:Originally posted by rasol: You mentioned Diop(s) theory earlier.
Have you read Diop's African Origin of Civilisations, or Civilisation vs. Barbarism?
I get the impression that you haven't?
I haven't read Diop. The impression I get is that he is too extreme, however, I will have to read one of his books myself before making a concrete judgement about him.
Basically, I haven't read many Afrocentric books about ancient Egypt. The few that I had read lacked objectivity and seemed to be promoting a romanticized black supremacist view of ancient Egypt. This admittedly, turned me off to Afrocentrics. However, I am interested in reading books by John Henrik Clarke in the future.
quote:Originally posted by neo*geo: I wouldn't label Zahi Hawass "Eurocentric". If anything, he is "Egyptocentric." He is just one of the authors that I have often read.
Thought Writes:
Please tell us SPECIFICALLY why you would label someone "Afrocentric"?
quote:Originally posted by neo*geo: I haven't read Diop. The impression I get is that he is too extreme, however, I will have to read one of his books myself before making a concrete judgement about him.
Basically, I haven't read many Afrocentric books about ancient Egypt. The few that I had read lacked objectivity and seemed to be promoting a romanticized black supremacist view of ancient Egypt. This admittedly, turned me off to Afrocentrics. However, I am interested in reading books by John Henrik Clarke in the future.
I didn't know that C.A. Diop was a self-proclaimed Afrocentric. Where and when did he say this? I'd love to see the source. It is quite obvious that, that is what you are implying here.
quote:Originally posted by supercar: Well Neo, when you make statements, you had better be prepared to be loaded with something to support those assertions.
Not when something is widely accepted in academic circles. Do I have to prove to you the sky is blue? Or that Zebras have stripes too?
If I read something or hear something at a lecture that isn't widely accpeted, I gladly take a mental note of it so I can reference my information in the future.
quote:Originally posted by supercar: Surely, if you say there is a counter argument with "scholarly" evidence, you ought to have some clue as to what those "scholarly" evidences are.
Again, I'm honest enough to admit that I don't know enough about the language to argue the mainstream point of view. However, the evidence is out there, it just requires a trip to your local library.
My only objection is how it seems we are projecting the modern Western definition of "black people" on ancient Egyptians. It is my understanding that "Khem" means black but a lot of things can be associated with black besides people's skin color.
posted
{Not when something is widely accepted in academic circles. Do I have to prove to you the sky is blue? Or that Zebras have stripes too?}
Thought Writes:
At one time the myth of the "Hamitic Invasion" was widely accepted in academic circles. Majority rule and the truth often do not equal one another.
{My only objection is how it seems we are projecting the modern Western definition of "black people" on ancient Egyptians}
Thought Writes:
In order to communicate we have to use common terms that are understood. The Ancient Egyptians were of a East African Sub-Saharan background. People from this background are knwon as "Black" in modern social terms.
And while I have given the Afrocentric definition of "Kemet" some thought, I'm not willing to accept a view that is almost exclusively held by one group of historians.
The "Two Lands" explanation seems like the most sensical to me. The "black land" representing the fertile soil along the Nile river and the "Red Land" representing the desert. But there is a certain amount of skepticism about this explanation as well.
I'm open to all points of view.
On short the dictionary definition of KM does not come from Afrocentrist. It comes from European Egyptologists.
The Two Lands is T3wy and means the unified Upper and Lower lands of KM.t.nwt. Red land black land comes from a book by Mertz that despite revision remaind riddled with errors.
Dshrt.x3st, the red land, represented almost everything the Kmtyw held in anathema and was without a doubt not a part of the KM.t.nwt polity
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
See, I told you we'd be circling the wagons with these clowns. Look at this one;
quote: Psusennes I screamed! Wally, your opening post just proves to me that you are just that- a Wally. There are multiple ways to translate any word in Egyptian Hieroglyphic. It is an incredibly vague language, and one should certainly not read as deeply as you are into a single seldom used word.
Furthermore, the feminine plural is "wt", not "t", and even with adjectival endings (even though Kmt is a noun), it could still be translated as meaning "black" singular. On top of that, Kemet is used to refer to the place, not the peoples, and you have completely ignored the inclusion of 049. [/b] [quote] I thought that I was the nut for the moment, so I had to go back and see what I had written:
"kem" is an adjective; it means black
"ut" makes the word a noun-adjective in the feminine plural; you know, like "s"
At least he's talking about the words the Ancient Egyptians used to describe themselves. But did you notice that he, like the others who have nothing valid to add - look at the nonsense neo/geo just posted, keep insisting on the reduction of the discussion to this ONE word Kmt, no mention of the many others with the kem root. The purpose is to divert attention from my original statements. That is their job...
[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 12 December 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by neo*geo: Again, I'm honest enough to admit that I don't know enough about the language to argue the mainstream point of view. However, the evidence is out there, it just requires a trip to your local library.
My only objection is how it seems we are projecting the modern Western definition of "black people" on ancient Egyptians. It is my understanding that "Khem" means black but a lot of things can be associated with black besides people's skin color.
Well, then you have weak argument; actually no argument to make. In otherwords, you make wild statements, just for the sake of arguing without a basis. It is you who needs to go to the library, because you said there is something out there, which you have failed to show here. That burden is on you, not me.
quote:neo*geo: Not when something is widely accepted in academic circles. Do I have to prove to you the sky is blue? Or that Zebras have stripes too?
Well it depends on the time of the day, and whether you are claiming the sky is of an entirely different color. You make most pathetic silly statements. What has the sky being blue, or the color a Zebra have to do with you providing your sources against the meaning of "Kemet". If your intended approach to comparing a Zebra to the word "kemet", you have miserably failed.
quote:neo*geo: If I read something or hear something at a lecture that isn't widely accpeted, I gladly take a mental note of it so I can reference my information in the future.
Particularly important, if you claim to know that both sides of an argument have "scholarly" evidence, when all the while you have no clue about the so-called scholarly substantiation for the counter argument.
You're 100% Correct, even these so called definitions are not Universal....
I you look at the Caribbean, and South America, their Definition of who is White is exactly the opposite of the American Definition. Basically, if you have caucasian Blood whatsoever, you're not considered Black or Indian.
What is so funny, is that the people who were supposedlly opressed, now have become the mental opressors. Such as the Israeli Jews have become the new Nazi's in their treatment of the Palestinians.....
I feel sorry for all these young African American students who have to listen to this distorted view of History......God Help Them!!
quote:Originally posted by neo*geo: Again, I'm honest enough to admit that I don't know enough about the language to argue the mainstream point of view. However, the evidence is out there, it just requires a trip to your local library.
My only objection is how it seems we are projecting the modern Western definition of "black people" on ancient Egyptians. It is my understanding that "Khem" means black but a lot of things can be associated with black besides people's skin color.
quote:Originally posted by Thought2: {Not when something is widely accepted in academic circles. Do I have to prove to you the sky is blue? Or that Zebras have stripes too?}
Thought Writes:
At one time the myth of the "Hamitic Invasion" was widely accepted in academic circles. Majority rule and the truth often do not equal one another.
The Hamitic Myth collapsed in the face of overwhelming, reasonable, and rational evidence. No respectable historian or scientist would apply the "hamitic hypothesis" today.
Science isn't governed by majority rule, or tyrannical clergy today. It's governed by a jury of one's peers. Any theory must be peer reviewed and evaluated nowadays.
I haven't seen any academic journals that review Diop's work. Could you recommend any?
quote:Originally posted by neo*geo: I haven't seen any academic journals that review Diop's work. Could you recommend any?
Thought Writes:
No, but his work was certainly reviewed by the academic community during UNESCO 1974. The outcome was reported as:
"Although the preparatory working paper sent out by UNESCO gave particulars of what was desired, not all participants had prepared communications comparable with the painstakingly researched contributions of Professor Cheikh Anta Diop and Obenga. There was consequently a real lack of balance in the discussions."
I have explained to you why what you posted is unconvincing. You make a good argument but it's not without flaws and it grossly relies on the assumption that ancient Egyptians were homogeneous.
quote:Originally posted by Thought2: Thought Writes:
No, but his work was certainly reviewed by the academic community during UNESCO 1974. The outcome was reported as:
"Although the preparatory working paper sent out by UNESCO gave particulars of what was desired, not all participants had prepared communications comparable with the painstakingly researched contributions of Professor Cheikh Anta Diop and Obenga. There was consequently a real lack of balance in the discussions."
The kind of peer review I'm looking for are reviews from other Egyptologists. Plus, a lot of new developments have occured in Egyptology since 1974.
quote:The Hamitic Myth collapsed in the face of overwhelming, reasonable, and rational evidence. No respectable historian or scientist would apply the "hamitic hypothesis" today.
Science isn't governed by majority rule, or tyrannical clergy today. It's governed by a jury of one's peers. Any theory must be peer reviewed and evaluated nowadays.
I haven't seen any academic journals that review Diop's work. Could you recommend any?
Actually, Diop did publish his views in an academic journal named Bulletin De IFAN. Most of Diop's writings in journals are written in the French language,and are unacessiable to the general public. Unless you can read French then his writings in journals are of no use.
His books come from a journal published in France called Pressence De Africane.
The work that Diop did was scholary,but the later people who followed him was unprofessional and shoady.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: Actually, Diop did publish his views in an academic journal named Bulletin De IFAN. Most of Diop's writings in journals are written in the French language,and are unacessiable to the general public. Unless you can read French then his writings in journals are of no use.
His books come from a journal published in France called Pressence De Africane.
The work that Diop did was scholary,but the later people who followed him was unprofessional and shoady.
My French is a little rusty but I will look for whatever titles I can find next time I visit my library...
I have explained to you why what you posted is unconvincing. You make a good argument but it's not without flaws and it grossly relies on the assumption that ancient Egyptians were homogeneous.
quote:Originally posted by neo*geo: My only objection is how it seems we are projecting the modern Western definition of "black people" on ancient Egyptians. It is my understanding that "Khem" means black but a lot of things can be associated with black besides people's skin color.
But as much as you dont like it general relative skin colour is one of the things associated with KM. The modern west was not the one who initiated the Africans into describing themselves as black people or as red people. They did that themselves. You just refuse to accept the evidence.
And before you hark on the nation thing again, no western country ever named an African ethny or polity black either. Just as the African themselves did, they only described the people as relatively and generally black in comlexion noting that some were also rather light skinned too.
Dont try to project western notions of black and white backward in time to Africa. Come and learn the Africans own concept of red and black.
Stop worshipping the west as bringers of consciousness to the world. Nonwesterners did quite well without European thought before the 15th century when the west finally tacked itself onto a trade network that encompassed practically all of the Old World.
Believe it or not Africans could see with their eyes and think with their brains. The Kmtyw and the Axumites have left on ancient record the reds and the blacks.
Africa was trading carbon steel to India and ivory to China centuries before Vasco de Gama and Magellan floated toy boats in their wash tubs as little boys. And Europeans were also doing things no one else in the world was doing.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:The kind of peer review I'm looking for are reviews from other Egyptologists. Plus, a lot of new developments have occured in Egyptology since 1974.
The UNESCO conference was mainly Egyptologist. Some of the likes like Jean Lecant and others still exist to this day. Diop's work is mentioned and esteamed by the likes of Bruce Trigger in the American Discovery of ancient Egypt. His works are not scoffed at like some of his critics might have you to believe.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Nor is it often cited by his peers... He sometimes seems like a "third rail" for Egyptologists...
From whom is Diop finding new support?
Diop is cited and supported in the following conference of Egyptology:
98.1016 CERVELLÓ AUTUORI, Joseph, Egypt, Africa and the Ancient World, in: Proceedings 7th Int. Congress of Egyptologists, 261-272. (fig.).
The traditional contextualisation of Egypt in the 'Mediterranean' or 'Near Eastern' world has been produced by a phenomenon of western historiography that we can classify as the 'forgotten Africa'. The reopening of the African question in Egyptology has proceeded from the pre- and protohistorians of the Nile Valley and of northern Africa in general. The inclusion of late prehistoric Egypt in Africa determines the essentially African nature of many of the central features of Pharaonic civilisation and explains the many parallels between ancient Egypt and both the ancient Saharan and modern black civilisations. The author discusses examples of the iconographic-symbolic parallels between Saharan rock art and Egyptian art, and the principal cultural characteristics shared by ancient Egypt and modern black Africa. The African nature of Egyptian civilisation can be seen most clearly in the institution of Pharaonic kingship. M.W.K.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: You mentioned Diop(s) theory earlier.
Have you read Diop's African Origin of Civilisations, or Civilisation vs. Barbarism?
I get the impression that you haven't?
Or even better, read how airtight was his and Obengas presentation to UNESCOs symposium on The Peopling of Ancient Egypt and the comments they elicited.
Gamal Mokhtar (ed. General History of Africa II London : Berkeley : Heinemann Educational Books ; University of California Press, 1981 pp. 27 78
Although the preparatory working paper sent out by Unesco gave particulars of what was desired, not all participants had prepared communications comparable with the painstakingly researched contributions of Professors Cheikh Anta Diop and Obenga. There was consequently real lack of balance in the discussions... The symposium also enabled specialists who had never previously had the opportunity of comparing and contrasting their points of view to discover other approaches to problems, other sources of which they were accustomed.
posted
Wally, don't underestimate the importance of restating a sound thesis with cool patience, and tolerance of what Sunstorm calls: "underhandidness" from Eurocentrists. What they really need is for the information you are sharing (right from the Ae's mouth) to go away, so that they can just go back to sleep "mentally" and soothe themselves with the lies that make them most comfortable.
Don't get impatient because the argument continues......you WANT it to continue.
Open invitation still, for anyone with linguistic evidence to show that Wally's translation of the mdw ntr is incorrect.
posted
Ive read these exact words on StormFront type boards so many times. Why dont I see you or your friends, or are they really just other alter egos spoofed by you, on those boards opposing them?
Yes, may God help all the students regardless of ehtnicity who have swilled Eurocentric gruel as real history and especially help white supremist students spoofing Egyptian identity and infiltrating discussion and learning boards to promote anti black and anti African racism and anti Jewish sentiment.
quote:Originally posted by ABAZA: Neo*Geo,
You're 100% Correct, even these so called definitions are not Universal....
I you look at the Caribbean, and South America, their Definition of who is White is exactly the opposite of the American Definition. Basically, if you have caucasian Blood whatsoever, you're not considered Black or Indian.
What is so funny, is that the people who were supposedlly opressed, now have become the mental opressors. Such as the Israeli Jews have become the new Nazi's in their treatment of the Palestinians.....
I feel sorry for all these young African American students who have to listen to this distorted view of History......God Help Them!!
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by neo*geo: The kind of peer review I'm looking for are reviews from other Egyptologists. Plus, a lot of new developments have occured in Egyptology since 1974.
Start making sense. Every participant at the synposium was a reknowned Egyptologist or of a related scientific discipline.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Ive read these exact words on StormFront type boards so many times. Why dont I see you or your friends, or are they really just other alter egos spoofed by you, on those boards opposing them? Yes, may God help all the students regardless of ehtnicity who have swilled Eurocentric gruel as real history and especially help white supremist students spoofing Egyptian identity and infiltrating discussion and learning boards to promote anti black and anti African racism and anti Jewish sentiment.
Arthur Kemp does exactly this. He goes to message boards under assorted names,and fakes his idenity to make it seem he is from that country. It's very typical and appears on nearly every message board I have went to related to Egyptology.
The problem is that too many books on African Archaeology in University shelves are filled with outdated Hamitic myths or false history. Newer publications don't seem to circulate in America like many do in European countries. I have relatives living in France that tell me how behind studies on Africa and Egyptology in general are in America.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Can someone give a brief summary of what key things were presented at the 1974 UNESCO conference? Posts: 887 | Registered: Jan 2004
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Come on we are talking about discussions between serious professional specialists not uninformed debate on a BBS on the net between amateurs and enthusiasts.
Sorry, no kings road here. Take the time to investigate for yourself instead of using a crutch. Visit the two given urls and where necessary make a printout to read examine and analyze at your leisure. You will be well rewarded or your money back!
quote:Originally posted by neo*geo: Can someone give a brief summary of what key things were presented at the 1974 UNESCO conference?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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