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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Thought, Lets make one thing perfectly clear, you do not give me opportunities to do anything. Further, I think you are careless with in terms of scholarship. You put forward a view that contemds that Egypt is the father of Greece and to make the point post a quote that contends the study is incomplete. Egypt and Greece have almost nothing in common. Show me the egyptian Aristotle. Egypt was a very conservative society during ancient times, Greece on the other hand was vastly more dynamic. Greek politics, religion and philosophy had almost nothing in common. Plato left room for an active God but it was light years removed from that of Egypt. This reminds me of extreme scholars who try to contend that the Holocost did not occur. It is also a great example of people who come up with an idea and then try to pick and choose facts to make their point.

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Going onto 49 posts, and you are still unable to define a term you use loosely. If you can, we are still open to seeing the answer.

Moreover, the Egyptian-Greek connections have been talked about time and again, and lately here:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001733.html

Oh BTW, the Aristotle that you joyfully mentioned, happened to acknowledge Egyptian foundations of mathematics. His work is available for yourself to see.

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Again, Egyptian Atritotle? This is careless scholarship that borders on ideological ignorance

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What on earth does the above sentence mean?

Feel free to use smaller words, bigger words or whatever is necessary to make it comprehensible.

Thank you.

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
that Egypt had an early understanding of math is beyond question SC...this does not mean that Classical Greece was based on an Egyptian foundation. Again, Egyptian Atritotle? This is careless scholarship that borders on ideological ignorance. If you are going to make that claim then you need to show how classical Greece derived from Egypt. I cannot imagine two societies more different than Greece and Egypt.

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Writing, science and philosophy are a good reason to see how Greece drew much from ancient Egypt. I have already provided a link above, which you apparently didn't carefully go through.

All of this, doesn't change the fact that you have been unable to address the question(s) asked of you until now.

Thought Writes:

Now you have begun to stoop to childish banter.

{Further, I think you are careless with in terms of scholarship.}

Thought Writes:

Do you have any specific examples?

{You put forward a view that contemds that Egypt is the father of Greece}

Thought Writes:

I was using a metaphor. Greece was a society not a actual person. With that said it is also obvious that a large portion of Greek male ancestry is indeed derived from an East African source.

{and to make the point post a quote that contends the study is incomplete}

Thought Writes:

Of course the study is incomplete. New information is filtering in everyday. At any rate. You made a post claiming that Ancient Egyptians were somehow Near Eastern. When we dug a little deeper we discovered that none of the "scholars" from the book you quoted were even Egyptologists!!!! David O'Connor is a well respected Egyptologist and a mainstream scholar. He even contributed to Lefkowitz's Black Athena Revisted. That fact that he now admits that Egypt had some part in the development of Western culture is a great leap forward and implies that Western Culture did not begin with the Greeks or in a vacum. Greek culture was based on the older complex societies of Africa.

{Egypt and Greece have almost nothing in common. }

Thought Writes:

Egypt is in East Africa. Greek males carry Y-Chromosomes that are > 25% East African in origin. Greek philosophy, religion and political thought was transposed utilizing writing that derived from Egypt. There is no indigenous "Western" written word.

Thought Writes:

Actually you seem to be confusing disciplines. “Classicists” specialize in the study of the “Classics”, which is the art, culture and literature of ancient Greece and Rome. “Classicists” are not trained archaeologists. Egyptologists are trained in the field of archaeology. The question of Greek origins is best addressed by physical anthropology. The question of the evolution of cultural complexity (origins of Greek society) in Greece is best addressed by archaeology and by default Egyptology. “Classicism” allows us to understand the culture of the Greeks but sheds little light on the origins of said culture. Greek culture predates Greek literature, hence the "Classics" have little to offer in understanding the Egyptian contribution to this daughter society.

{Thirdly, that there was not an egyptologist in the list of consultants I gave you is not relevant to the point I made. I said that the Glencoe text taught Egypt as a near eastern, not an African, subject. That is the case regardless of who the consultants were.}

Thought Writes:

Again, none of the authors within the Glencoe text were QUALIFIED to address the classification of Ancient Egyptian society in that none of them were trained in the fields of Egyptology or even archaeology.

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AE is being taught as a near eastern power.

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Doesn't even matter if it correct or not

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Thought Writes:

We may simply have different standards for the truth.

{Secondly, classical scholars are best suited to interpret the writings of classical Greece, not archeologists or egyptologists. }

Thought Writes:

We are discussing two different things. Greek culture predates the Greek borrowing of African derived writing systems. Greek writing tells us little to nothing about the origins of Greek culture. What is clear is that the genetic lineage and writing of Greece derive from Africa. This alone proves my point.

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What is clear is that the genetic lineage and writing of Greece derive from Africa.

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Classicists do not dispute either fact. Nor can they.

Classicists ultimately interpret "Plato", "Aristotle" etc., and even here, they have been reduced to spending much of their time denouncing their own primary sources.

ristotle reported that the Egyptians gave the world the study of geometry and mathematics and the Aryanists argue that Aristotle made mistakes in what he observed. Professor Lefkowitz carries the denial of the ancient Greeks to a new level saying essentially that you cannot trust Homer, Diogenes Laertius, Plutarch, or Strabo. Her position is that Strabo, like Herodotus, depended too much on what the Egyptian priests told him. Every Greek who wrote on the overwhelming impact of Egypt(Africa) on Greece (Europe) is discredited or set up to be discredited by the Aryanists. The idea to abandon the Greek authors rests on the belief that these ancient Greek writers cannot be counted upon to support the theories of white supremacy. -Asante

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
It does not prove your point because you do not have a complete picture. Additionally that would have nothing to do with classical Greece.

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Thought Writes:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Let me say this, I am sure that as neighbors all of those countries influenced each other to a greater or lesser degree...

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Thought Writes:

The greater would be the influence of Egypt on Greece. The lesser would be the influence of Greece on Egypt. Egypt was older, literate and more poweful. This is reflected in Greek borrowings.

"The range and quality of Egyptian technical acheivements presupposes a degree of theoretical knowledge, some of which has survived and some of which can be reconstructed from Egyptian texts themselves or from commentaries in the classical authors, but modern scholars are increasingly inclined to agree with the high value which Greek commentators placed on Egyptian thinking....Iamblichus...was convinced that it {Egyptian Religion} foreshadowed the Platonic Theory of Forms. Most Egyptologists have been dismissive of thes ideas although they have begun to gain credibility over time."

Thought Writes:

And you are attempting to credit the daughter for the work established by the father. Culture is a on-going process, not an event. If you believe it is an event please tell us SPECIFICALLY which event marks the on-set of "Western Civilization"?

{The argument is about classical Greece and the contention is that they developed most of what they came up with FROM WITHIN themselves during the 5th-3rd centuries}

Thought Writes:

Your atempting to superficially design the terms for this debate. I won't let you do that. The debate is about the COMPLETE process of cultural development in Europe in general and Greece in particular. This process is traced back to Africa as indicated in the blood/genes of the Greek people and the fact that Greek history/writing is derived from African borrowings.

Thought Writes:

Non-Sequitur, I have never argued that Egyptians DIRECTLY influenced individual Greeks. Although it is possible or even probable that they did. My argument is based upon the more relevant issue of Africans providing the technological sub-structure that facilitated Greek complexity. There would be no Greek philosophy, mathematics, science or history without Egyptian writing. Genetically the Greeks are hybrid; a combination of Paleolithic European and Middle Eastern lineages and Holocene era African lineages. What separates the logical Greeks and Romans from their less cultured kin to the north was the ability to record and build on the wisdom of each generation via the written word. This was a gift from Africa.

Thought Writes:

Nope, the indigenous people of Mexico developed their own writing systems. Europeans borrowed theirs from Africans. Two different things.

{Secondly, lets not get carried away with AE technology. While their construction is impressive it is elementary.]

Thought Writes:

Technology evolves over time and becomes more and more complex. Ancient Egypt was already over three-thousand years old by the time of the Classic period in Greek history. Of course when the Greeks came upon the world scene they were able to benefit from and build on that which came before them - African high culture.

{ Historians are going to trace our culture back to the Athens school and classical greece.....Things like egypt inventing writing will not cut it, you know that.}

Thought Writes:

There is no history without writing. The Greeks learned to write thanks to Africans. Are you saying that there was no "European Civilization" before Classical Greece?

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rasol, we have lived through the most liberal, politically correct period in our history(thank God we are moving out of it).

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You seem to be trying to make the point by saying that they are racist

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Leaping over thousand year periods of history on an assumption is not careful, nor is it responsible.

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Further, I think we know much more about Greek or roman history than any of their historians alive at the time.

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I don't think you know anything about Greek or Roman history.

This is based upon case-study of the evidence in your replies, which are devoid of historical fact and filled with.... irrelevant jibberish.

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Egyptian religion was 180 out from Plato , the two could not be further apart. I could buy an Egyptian influence on the Jews much more quickly than Plato.

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Thought...I just went to several sites 'on the origins of greek language.' There is no mention of Egypt anywhere. In fact, most of them say the origin is unclear and cannot be proved. I think you are grabbing at endless straws.

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Thought Writes:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
I know about Imhotep. We don't know what he knew about medicine, we can only guess. The Greeks did not worship Egyptian gods SC, thats crap. I have an open mind on the subject but you guys give me cabbage and no meat. i suspect there is none.....

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Sure there were civilizations in europe(plural) before classical greece but none of them had anything to do with us.

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Thought Writes:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
i have already read about Imhotep and his place in medicine is not proved. We don't know what he knew. I want you to direct me to any Greek history text that shows that the greeks worshiped Imhotep as a god.

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Since it appears that you can't do a search on your own, start with the above links. If you want a list on this, I'll gladly provide you one.

To help you further, try another Greek reference to him: "Imouthes"

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Thought Writes:

What does that have to do with the African origin of Greek WRITING?

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He is confusing 'writing' with spoken 'language'. He is one confused individual.

We are still waiting for the 'event' that led to "western" civilization, since your argument seems to be that it wasn't one of a process.

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
I feel like I am teaching an 8th grade world history class. Greek philosophy, art, science, drama, trade, government etc provided a foundation which became Greco-Roman civilization. This first civilization that spead across southern Europe. With the fall of Rome in the 5th century northern europe was slowly incoporated into this process through the Catholic church. By the 9th century we have returned to the point where the writings of Aristotle and Plato established the foundations for the creation of the modern western world. Guys , this is really basic stuff, if you don't understand it by now I can't help you.

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The keyword in this paragraph is: writing.

Without it, there won't be any classical Greece to speak of.
This writing derives from Kemet/ancient Egypt. That said, which "specific" event determines the beginning of the so-called western civilization?

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this is really basic stuff

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I feel like i'm teaching 8th grade.

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
SC, and this list is going to tell me that the Greeks worshiped Imhotep as a god? tell me, why was he not mentioned in Edith hamilton's book, which is the standard text on greek gods? I'll check it out.

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Did you check out any of the Greek words or references I mentioned above?

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
SC, using that twisted logic every civiliztion on earth is African. Go soak your head...you get more ignorant every day.

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How so?

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Prove the Greeks used an Egyptian writing system.

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Now we are talking. If you had admitted earlier, that you know nothing of what you talk about, we could have helped you.

The Greeks derived the writing system directly from the Phoenicians, who in turn, developed their system from Egyptic writing. This is no new stuff.

For more, check this out:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/521235.stm

Even if we were to accept that Greece was not influenced by Egypt as claimed by those foolish Eurocentrists, then it still does not eliminate the fact that Greece recieved their knowledge from West Asia.

The Hittites whom migrated from Central Asia, were initially warlike nomads whom had no time to attain knowledge. This is because of the region they initially lived in. Central Asia is an extremely harsh region, and is not a proper region for human dev't. During the Ice Ages, it was even much more worse. These regions were similar to Ghettos with one tribe or clan having wars with others. This is why the Hittites, Dorians, and Indo-Aryans were very war-like in nature.

West Asians and Africans, on the other hand, only migrated when desertification of their once pleasant region occured. Most of the population would never continue to live in inhospitable regions, Caucasians, however did not have a choice. This is why both people could develop such civilizations.

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Originally posted by Roy_2k5:

Even if we were to accept that Greece was not influenced by Egypt as claimed by those foolish Eurocentrists

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...which not all of us will accept, given the ties. Even the Greek precedants, the Minoan Cretes, made use of Egyptian writing system, to develop their own. But classical Greece mainly derives it from Phoenician, which itself is a development of Proto-Canaanite/Proto-Sinaitic writing. Phoenician writing developed from Proto-Sinaitic script, which also makes use of Egyptian glyphs, but with the addition vowels to that of consonants, in order to suite their native tongue.
http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/science/111499sci-alphabet-origin.html

About the Authors:

John Camp is the director of the Agora excavations and the author of The Athenian Agora. Elizabeth Fisher is Professor of both Classics and Art History at Randolph-Macon College in Ashland, Virginia, and has conducted many excavations in Greece and Italy.

"The monumental architecture on view throughout Egypt must have had a profound effect when the Greeks began to build their own more modest temples with columns and cut stone blocks in the 7th century B.C. Similarly the stiff striding pose of the Kouros, which is one of the earliest subjects in monumental Greek sculpture, surely derives from Egypt, albeit adapted to Greek tastes. The triangular headdress of the Pharaoh has become locks of long hair falling to the shoulders, and the kilt has been abandoned to accommodate the Greek preference for the male figure shown nude.”

Bernal in his Black Athena volumes does not even contend that Egyptians were the transmitters of their own knowleadge. Read his book carefully and he claims that it was simply Egyptianized Hykos. He associated the Egyptianized Hykos with the Pelagians[sp]

Leading Aagean archaeologist Eric Cline wrote that there remains some possibility that some small trading colonies existed in parts of the Aagean,but he needs for more evidence to consider the so-called colonization by the mythical Cecrops that Bernal postulated in Black Athena.

Some Near-Eastern examples exist in Hesiods stories that reflect Gilgamesh of the Sumerians.