Synopsis
In this ground-breaking new study, Jacques Le Goff, arguably the leading medievalist of his generation, presents his view of the primacy of the Middle Ages in the development of European history. He contends that it was in the Middle Ages that many of the institutions and ideas we consider to be 'European' were defined and developed for the first time - and, of all the periods that have contributed to our common European heritage, the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries are the most important. The book ranges widely, examining the impact and legacy of the Middle Ages in both material and intellectual terms, and covering the region from Ireland to the Black Sea. One of the central concerns of the book is to show the diversity of communities in medieval Europe and to examine the relationship between the centre and peripheries. It was at the physical frontiers of Europe, Le Goff argues, that new ideas about what made Europe special and unique were first negotiated and the structures to support them evolved. Around this argument, the author provides detailed coverage of the events that dominated the period, making the book accessible to introductory readers. The book will be enjoyed by loyal followers of Jacques Le Goff's scholarship, as well as students and general readers interested in understanding the place of the Middle Ages in European history.

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Originally posted by Thought2:

He contends that it was in the Middle Ages that many of the institutions and ideas we consider to be 'European' were defined and developed for the first time - and, of all the periods that have contributed to our common European heritage, the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries are the most important.

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Originally posted by Thought2:

He contends that it was in the Middle Ages that many of the institutions and ideas we consider to be 'European' were defined and developed for the first time -

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Originally posted by Super car:
The same period in which, Arab invasions of Europe made quite an impact.

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Thought Writes:

-- Clarence E. Walker, UC Davis

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In this ground-breaking new study, Jacques Le Goff, arguably the leading medievalist of his generation, presents his view of the primacy of the Middle Ages in the development of European history.

He contends that it was in the Middle Ages that many of the institutions and ideas we consider to be 'European' were defined and developed for the first time - and, of all the periods that have contributed to our common European heritage, the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries are the most important.

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Originally posted by Super car:
For those who seem to be having language problems, Mr. Le Goff's context couldn't have been put it any more plainer ...

[QUOTE]In this ground-breaking new study, Jacques Le Goff, arguably the leading medievalist of his generation, presents his view of the [b]primacy of the Middle Ages in the development of European history.

He contends that it was in the Middle Ages that many of the institutions and ideas we consider to be 'European' were defined and developed for the first time - and, of all the periods that have contributed to our common European heritage, the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries are the most important.

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Thought Writes:

In other words **specialists** have determined that there really is NO direct link between modern Europe and ancient Greece. In fact the ancient Greeks and Romans viewed their northern neighbors as savages. Many Greeks looked to Egypt as the font of civilization.

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Originally posted by Thought2:

In other words **specialists** have determined that there really is NO direct link between modern Europe and ancient Greece. In fact the ancient Greeks and Romans viewed their northern neighbors as savages. Many Greeks looked to Egypt as the font of civilization.

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
I guess 50,000 history teachers are wrong and the afrocentrics are right.

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Thought Writes:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Ignorance is bliss...this board is the best example one could use to prove that point.

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Thought Translates:

TRANSLATION: "Damn, why does Thought keep pulling my skirt-up. Why won't he just let me come here and make silly, irrelevent comments and be a troll as I desire."

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Originally posted by Horemheb:

That is one of the stupidest statements I have ever heard. The man did not say that and he would not agree with you. I guess 50,000 history teachers are wrong and the afrocentrics are right.

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Try writing the authors of the text, they'll perhaps try to translate it even further...if they can figure out troller language!

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Horemheb:
You guys need to give it up and take up some other subject.

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Translates:

TRANSLATION: "Damn, why does Thought keep pulling my skirt-up. Why won't he just let me come here and make silly, irrelevent comments and be a troll as I desire."

[This message has been edited by Thought2 (edited 30 March 2005).]

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TRANSLATION: "Damn, why does Thought keep pulling my skirt-up. Why won't he just let me come here and make silly, irrelevent comments and be a troll as I desire."

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
One thing we know, Afrocentrics are as ignorant as everone says they are.

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*Non sequitur or ad hominems only demonstrates that the individual lacks debating skills and therefore the claim I have highlighted (along with others) are valid.

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Originally posted by Roy_2k5:
The Greeks affiliated themselves more with the people of West Asia and Africa than Europe. If this is not true than can anybody provide a quote from Ancient Greek texts proving otherwise. The Hittites, similar to the Greeks heavily adopted West Asian culture (Mesopatamians, Assyrians, etc), while retaining their IE tongue. The Greeks were not the first IE people to use a non-European writing system.

*Non sequitur or ad hominems only demonstrates that the individual lacks debating skills and therefore the claim I have highlighted (along with others) are valid.

[This message has been edited by Roy_2k5 (edited 30 March 2005).]

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You must have realized by now that the only reason the Greeks are associated with "Western Civilization" is because of their achievements. That should not surprise you because you can how Eurocentric 'scholars' tried to stretch the concept of "Western Civilization" to incorporate places like ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia.

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Originally posted by Horemheb:

The Greeks did not wake up one day and say, "why don't we create western civilization."

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No kidding?

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Horemheb:

I don't know where some of you guys went to school but we need to find out and close those places down.

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Black Spark White Fire

Super car...do you know what a nazi is? You throw that word around a great deal. 'National SOCIALIST party...the key word is socialist. Conservatives in Europe come from a tradition of strong central government, in the United States conservatives favor the idea of a LIMITED central government, quite the opposite of Nazi philosophy. I do not think Alexander Hamilton and Hitler had much in common. don't throw those words around unless you understand what you are saying. In the U.S. the liberals are much clser to NAZI principles than conservatives.

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Super car...do you know what a nazi is?

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Yeap. It is Horemheb.

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Horemheb:
You throw that word around a great deal. 'National SOCIALIST party...the key word is socialist. Conservatives in Europe come from a tradition of strong central government, in the United States conservatives favor the idea of a LIMITED central government, quite the opposite of Nazi philosophy. I do not think Alexander Hamilton and Hitler had much in common. don't throw those words around unless you understand what you are saying. In the U.S. the liberals are much clser to NAZI principles than conservatives.

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What the Nazi's trully stood for, is something a neo-nazi like yourself should be acquainted with.

Ruthless colonialism or militarism, which you advocated, was the same view Hitler shared years ago. This is anti-social.

Justification of ruthless plunder of natural resources away from the home turf, is something that Hitler shared back in the days.

Closing schools down, which you just thought of, is anti-social.

Hitler was an aryanist; hated Jews and colored folks, and fully supported separatism. Very much in line with the garage you spew here on a daily basis, and needless to say which, is anti-social.

Hitler thought profit should be prioritized before the basic needs of average working people, not much different from the views you have displayed here. This too is anti-social.

Nothing Hitler stood for was social, but exclusively anti-social.

Are you sure you aren't Hitler junior?

DK World History Atlas Mapping the Human Journey: Revised and Updated, November 2004
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001791.html

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
what a screw ball.........didn't understand a single word I said.

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True that I don't understand a screw ball's language.

Of course, the Egyptians of early Christianity were enthusiatic about the fundamental structure and meaning of this "new" religion and probably recognized it as a reflection of their own very ancient and also very advanced system of beliefs.

The British contingent was a much harder sell it seems, as Columba found out first hand on Iona. He came eye to eye with a Bardic opposition and a clan system steeped in primordial tradition, the roots of which some Scottish and Irish historians lay at Scota's feet - an alleged Egyptian princess. You could say that there are some Brits who are not altogether pleased when any of this gets too much play, just as there are some Eurocentrists living in a state of blissful denial with regard to a number of other related issues.

So there is more to Chistianity's indebtedness to Egypt than meets the casual eye and probably much more to the fundamentals of Egyptain integration of primordial African tradition than common accredited. Anyone have any helpful comments or links for that connection?

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rasol...glad you are starting to look at some more varied material.

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Actually, I've been recommending the Oxford History of Ancient Egypt to you for months.

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Originally posted by Pimander:
Ironic to say the least that Christianity contains a very high proportion of Coptic influences and a gospel that was really a pale imitation of the Egyptian go-spells and enfold spells - the same ones the Greeks tried to emulate in pre-Christian times. Others went to Egypt to get it from the horse's mouth.

Of course, the Egyptians of early Christianity were enthusiatic about the fundamental structure and meaning of this "new" religion and probably recognized it as a reflection of their own very ancient and also very advanced system of beliefs.

The British contingent was a much harder sell it seems, as Columba found out first hand on Iona. He came eye to eye with a Bardic opposition and a clan system steeped in primordial tradition, the roots of which some Scottish and Irish historians lay at Scota's feet - an alleged Egyptian princess. You could say that there are some Brits who are not altogether pleased when any of this gets too much play, just as there are some Eurocentrists living in a state of blissful denial with regard to a number of other related issues.

So there is more to Chistianity's indebtedness to Egypt than meets the casual eye and probably much more to the fundamentals of Egyptain integration of primordial African tradition than common accredited. Anyone have any helpful comments or links for that connection?

a bientot
DMc

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Something related to this was discussed here: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001612.html

a bientot
DMc

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Originally posted by Pimander:
Thank you Super Car. That was a nice long read, but well worth it. I look forward to more of the same. The tone and content on that thread was very thoughtful and serene - which is basically what I prefer. Also, I was not aware that the Oriental Institute offered a translation service. A good day's catch. Thanks again for pointing me in the right direction.

a bientot
DMc

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When the essential ingredients to engage in 'civil' discussions are fulfilled, i.e. the ability to support one's assertions, asking questions if necessary, and not constantly going off topic to hide behind the inability to address the issues put forth, then everyone benefits.

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Ironic to say the least that Christianity contains a very high proportion of Coptic influences and a gospel that was really a pale imitation of the Egyptian go-spells and enfold spells - the same ones the Greeks tried to emulate in pre-Christian times. Others went to Egypt to get it from the horse's mouth.

Of course, the Egyptians of early Christianity were enthusiatic about the fundamental structure and meaning of this "new" religion and probably recognized it as a reflection of their own very ancient and also very advanced system of beliefs.

The British contingent was a much harder sell it seems, as Columba found out first hand on Iona. He came eye to eye with a Bardic opposition and a clan system steeped in primordial tradition, the roots of which some Scottish and Irish historians lay at Scota's feet - an alleged Egyptian princess. You could say that there are some Brits who are not altogether pleased when any of this gets too much play, just as there are some Eurocentrists living in a state of blissful denial with regard to a number of other related issues.

So there is more to Chistianity's indebtedness to Egypt than meets the casual eye and probably much more to the fundamentals of Egyptain integration of primordial African tradition than common accredited. Anyone have any helpful comments or links for that connection?

a bientot
DMc

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There is some debate in academic circles about the origins and spread of Christianity across Egypt. Most of the early Christians around Alexandria were mostly Jews and Greeks.

The development in Egypt during Late Antique Period was a slow gradual process. Coptic Literature as late as 400 AD[thats 234 years before the Arabic invasion] describe traditional ancient Egyptian culture still thriving in many parts of Egypt. Traditions that go unbroken even today in parts of Middle and Upper Egypt.

Pimander, have you studied this era? I have just recently studied this era and found most people in Egyptology tend to stop at Kmt's history around the 19th dyansty.

Here is something interesting about this era in the following article:

Frankfurter, David 1961- ""Things Unbefitting Christians": Violence
and Christianization in Fifth-Century Panoplis"
Journal of Early Christian Studies - Volume 8, Number 2, Summer 2000,
pp. 273-295
The Johns Hopkins University Press

Abstract

Near the end of the fifth century C.E., the new abbot of Shenoute's
monastery in Atripe, Besa, was called upon to pacify local villagers
who had been "fighting for nothing over a piece of wood." Using Besa's
sermon as a starting point, this paper explores the possibility that
the village strife addressed here revolved around Egyptian religious
images and their dwindling community of devotees.

Papyri,
inscriptions, and Coptic sources show Egyptian religion's striking
resilience in the region of Atripe through Shenoute's own time; and
comparative sources on local Christianization describe cases of local
violence in the last stages of Christianization, meant to cleanse
"pagans" regarded as dangerous to local fortune.

This paper explores
an additional dimension of such modern antipagan purge movements,
their inevitable leadership by youths and their aim at the elderly,
and looks at ways in which late antique Christianization also involved
intergenerational tensions.

http://muse.jhu.edu/cgi-bin/access.cgi?uri=/journals/journal_of_early_christian_\
studies/v008/8.2frankfurter.html&session=90029702

Although I can understand somewhat how the study of KMT-ian history might end "officially" with the 19th Dynasty I am also quite sensitive to the fact that her cultural influence proceeded well beyond the termination of Egypt's viability as a self-governing political entity and that her influence upon the form and content of more than one religious doctrine - polytheistic, monotheistic and many cultic minorities - appears to be a viable contention. This contention is amplified through the prism of Gnostic teachings and the polemics of Roman church fathers who took exception to Alexandrian ecumenicalism and eventually succeeded in purging orthodox Christianity of its so-called "pagan" influences - which included veneration of icons and their production, an artistic specialization at which the Copts excelled.

Despite bouts of iconoclasm and Roman persecution, the great irony of the post Nicean era (aside from the adoption of Christianity as the official form of religion) tends to congeal around Augustine of Hippo and his fluidity as perfect go between when it came to reconciling Christianity with paganism. But that is just a small thumbnail sketch of a very large historical picture...

Tracing the diffusion of icons and symbols has led me all the way from Naquada to the Copts. While looking for something very specific, I have found, much to my chagrin, that the little wedge I inserted into Egypt several years ago has cracked open a much larger egg than I had anticipated. On one hand, I am not aided by the ambiguities of Egypt's propensity to gather particulars from surrounding sources and reintegrate them into her own pantheon. This is quite a looking glass to deal with - i.e. - who borrowed what from whom, when and why? And yet, I am also aware that when it came to formalized convention, Egypt held herself to be self-sufficient to the point of xenophobia and despite the great jumble of iconic integrations and disintegrations, remained true to her guiding star well into the Christian era. I think I can undertand why this was so, partly through personal eXperience and also according to the historical trail I have assembled in the study of Egyptian religion and those of other cultures, which, in a more concrete sense has also encouraged my great fondness for board games and their historical importance to Egyptian culture.

To cut to the chase - I am most interested in what is euphemistically known as "pawn promotion" and its first historical appearances in ancient Egyptian games such as mehen and senet. From what limited amounts of information I have been able to gather and decipher from these games, they are representitive of the go-spells and enfold spells and contract around a rosary of symbolic events that tend to put the "divine" in divination and the astral in astragali. No wonder the Egyptians took them to heart and with them to their graves - maybe beyond...! Who is to say? "Who" indeed.

So, while I am interested in Gnostic games, I am also interested in learning more about continuity within African-Egyptian-Coptic-Persian-Bysantine (etc) iconography and its transmission across culture zones since, in my preliminary studies I find the general subject forms a vital bridge to various assumptions - misguided or otherwise - with regard to the development of modern board game structures - such as 6th Century AD Persian and Indian protochess and chaturanja.

To say I have a little blood in my eye over what passes for "A History of Chess" would be an understatement and I assume you may know already where I might be heading with my agenda. Suffice to say, I share my general disdain for shortcomings in this field with the late Dr. Ricardo Calvo of Spain. Google him if you like - or go directly to goddesschess.com - where the Mosarab-Iberian connection is very important and the Spanish Enlightenment draws many things into itself.

Assur - I think I have probably failed in offering you a more substantial focus - but that may change once I have time to read the url you posted. Right now I am looking for orientation on this board and so I am a little like a kid in a candy shop. It is also getting very late and I am thrashing around in generalizations it seems...

In a forum such as this one it is probably trite to have to restate that Egypt was very concerned with preservation of conservatation of traditions deemed to be utterly fundamental to the spiritual and cohabitating physical well being of god, king and country. I think it must also be well enough known to you that when the Romans broke into her sphere she was already a much trammled shell of her former self, and we can do little more than mourn for the sucessive losses of Tbebes and Alexandria. However, from what information I have gathered from the Oriental Institute's Nubian exposition, a considerable number of indigenous Egyptians fled south, to places such as Berenice, where Roman influence failed to penetrate until much . Moreover, there are also many positive signs of religious diaspora appearing in different areas of the middle east and even the northern parts of Europe to assume that the ideas and icons of ancient Egyptian religion were not actively engaged and integrated into the votive practices of many significant enclaves - Byzantium included.

But, Byzantium is not where I seek my original chess. I expect to find it in close proximity to the original pawn. So, for the time being, I will simply close by saying that all the lessons one can learn from this and many board games are written in the stars that shine without and, most importantly, the imperishible one that shines within. Now to sleep - perchance to dream...

May all your pawns promote.

Also - a correction you might find interesting...

I incorrectly referred to Spanish "Enlightenment" in the previous post but actually it would be prefereable to think of this period as the "pre-Renaissance" era of Alphonso X the Wise. Dr. Calvo traces the beginnings of the European Renaissance to Valencia, Spain and the circle of intellectuals that gathered there. This, of course, does not favour the Italian claim and so, I am pointing this out in reference to your mention of the "offical" version of where the Renaissance originated as I found it on another thread.