THEY SHARED THE SAME FEATURES HISTORY AND LANGUSAGE.

THIS IS MY PROOF.

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Most theories bent on finding non African origins for ancient Egypt are based on the principle that they were unique in the region and that there were no related peoples to them then and that there no related peoples living in Africa right now.

The truth is best given if we put aside the pictorial testimony of ancient Egyptians, the writings of Greek writers such as Herodotus who referred to them as black, by a comparison between the language and culture of ancient Egypt and those of peoples who inhabit the regions next to Egpyt.

First the linguistic evidence; some people have tried to classify it as a language in a class of its own; linguistic comparison (semantic and syntax) gives unequivocal proof that was a Hamitic language allied to the living languages spoken in the Sudan (the Haden Adowa) in Eritria (the Agaw and the Beja), in Ethiopia and in Somalia.

Some words and these not all general words - some those of religion found in the language of ancient Egyptians:

Ancient Egyptian Somali and Afar dialects (the same is true of others)

Ra Ra (The sun)

Neter Neder (divine being)

Hipo Hibo (the sound b doe not exist in Hamitic languages - gift)

Horus Huur (a stork)

Tuf Tuf (spit)

Habi (the Nile) Wabi ( a river)

Ar Ar ( a lion)

cb kab (shoe)

brq biriq (lightning)

ayah Dayah (moon)

dab dab (fire)

anka aniga (I)

su, asu usi (he)

Ka Ka, Kaah (spirit)

medu muud (liquid)

I can go on and on to hundreds of words.

Grammatical evidence is given by the structure of OSV (object, subject, verb), the use of the predicative particle wa, the use of the interrogative ma and others.

Unless somebody proves me that they borrowed a language, I would believe they spoke an African tongue much me and were Africans much like me.

Culturally, the similitudes between present day African cultures and that of ancient Egypt is undeniable and has been amply demonstrated by Sheikh Anta Diop. I would just give the following:

1) the use of the dance zaar, recorded on the Rosetta Stone, and alive in African countries nearest Egypt. It is also alive in Egypt to the dislike of Muslim clerics for whom it is a heathen dance to be stamped out.

2) The use of the head-rest (wooden usually) found in African societies as far as Cameroon and Chad. It was used then and now to keep elaborate African coiffure from crumpling during sleep. It is one of the most common articles found in ancient Egyptian sites.

3) The practice of circumcision including female circumcision.

4) The practice of sacrifice and ritual after a house is completed; this too exists to some in today's Egypt but is mostly practiced, much like the zaar dance by Egyptians of darker complexion.

5) The practice of washing and touching the bodies of dead persons.

6) From the vestimentary (dress) code: the loin cloth, the broad bracelets, the chest and neck ornaments, etc.

There are more but I do not have the time to give them all. For the rest, the pictures and sculptures, they can be seen and understood even by those who have not done much study in the subject or do not have the benefit of growing up in those cultures related to that of ancient Egypt.

-------------------------------------------

Please note that Afro-Asian is spoken in parts of Western Africa to by the Hausa people in northern Nigeria. Many modern Western African groups have identical kingship and cultural customs of the ancient Egyptians. Most likely the early Upper Egyptians came from both the Saharan area[eastern and Central] and also an input from parts of eastern Africa. This explains why many cultural traits of the ancient Egyptians is much like that of modern eastern and Western Africans.

Don't forget about the mummy they found in Fezzan southern Libya,and also the rock art that had a close connection to Anpu[Anubis]

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That ancient Egyptian language is part of the Afrasan group, is well known, but you talk of 'Hamitic' Language. The Hamitic myth is a defunct and nonsensical notion.

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And what is your idea of "west African Negroes"?

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Cobra, you have raised some interesting points that I myself have been aware of. I would like to discuss something with you, do you mind telling me your email address?

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QUOTE]

Cobra, you have raised some interesting points that I myself have been aware of. I would like to discuss something with you, do you mind telling me your email address?

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Thought Writes:

Why HIDE your thoughts?

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Djehuti:
Actually Supercar, it depends on what one means by "Hamitic"! The problem really isn't the word itself but how one uses the word. We all know that Hamite once referred to 'black-caucasians' and we all know that this is utterly ridiculous and such a thing doesn't exist. But remember, the term 'Hamite' was first used by white people originally as a synonym for 'negro' or black African, and it wasn't until all the inaccurate anthropology that it became 'black caucasoid'. You must realize that instead of throwing out the term all together, there are scholars that are trying to reform and redefine it to its orignal more accurate meaning before the 'caucasoid' craze which was simply black African.

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Yes, I am aware of the history of the 'Hamitic' term, and how some people talk of biblical stories and the so-called curse et al, just as I am aware of the 19th century logic-free hypothesis of placing 'Hamite' origins in some ambiguous region in some unknown timeframe, and their ambiguous migration into east Africa, again during some ambiguous time. Fact is, whatever the original reference of 'Hamite', it will always have the black mark of bad anthropology. As such, those folks who desperately try to revitalize its 'original' meaning, should be prepared for much hard work ahead; science has long moved forward, since the dismissal of the term as a mere myth.

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Actually Supercar, it depends on what one means by "Hamitic"! The problem really isn't the word itself but how one uses the word. We all know that Hamite once referred to 'black-caucasians' and we all know that this is utterly ridiculous and such a thing doesn't exist. But remember, the term 'Hamite' was first used by white people originally as a synonym for 'negro' or black African, and it wasn't until all the inaccurate anthropology that it became 'black caucasoid'. You must realize that instead of throwing out the term all together, there are scholars that are trying to reform and redefine it to its orignal more accurate meaning before the 'caucasoid' craze which was simply black African.

[/b]

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Amen!
I am overjoyed that there is someone else who feels about this as I do. The etymology for the word "Hamite" derives from one of the oldest African root words to describe Africans!
This word was co-opted by "Egyptology" and we shouldn't abandon it to them, we must take back what rightfully belongs to us.
..don't care how difficult it may prove to be...

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Originally posted by Wally:

The etymology for the word "Hamite" derives from one of the oldest African root words to describe Africans!

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Thought Writes:

Please prove:

A) This word derives from one of the oldest African language families.

B) This word was utilized to describe ALL African people.

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

Please prove:

A) This word derives from one of the oldest African language families.

B) This word was utilized to describe ALL African people.

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I suspect Wally is saying that Ham is derived from Kem which means Black.

The ironic thing about almost all the pseudo-terms utilised in anthropology to divide and mislabel Africans is that they almost all invariably reference skin color.

Black means Black.
Negro means Black.
Hamite means Black.
Moor means Black.
Aethiopes [notwithstanding the possible Kemetic root of Ethoshi] means Black.
Kemite, the most authentically Black African term...means Black.

Now the question of which terms are appropriate for African scholarly use, is a very interesting one.

Wally - considering Rwanda as a context - how exactly would we 'take back' the term, Hamite?

What are you exactly referring to.

Somali's believing they are superior to the bantu groups within the horn of africa.

somali people kill each other because they believe their clan is better then other's forget about other blacks, whites etc.

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What are you exactly referring to.

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Question asked....

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Somali's believing they are superior to the bantu groups within the horn of africa.

somali people kill each other because they believe their clan is better then other's forget about other blacks, whites etc.

I doubt there will be anything similar to the hutu-tutsi conflict in Somalia let alone all of Africa " oh I forgot arabs vs the blacks in the Sudan. Actually black on black violence.

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My question is how will.

"It's been suggested before that if the Somali play the fool and take the bait of the Hamite fallacy like the Tutsi did....history will repeat itself."

as a somali i sit here and laugh on how ignorant RASSOL knows the situation within somalia.

RASSOL i do agree somalians are brutal in a scence. but thats how its always been been with the somalies.

BUT somalies are not known to be racists or comit ethnic cleansing, like the hutus. its not in our nature. and nither are we stupid to fall in a trap set out by europeans. (such as that BAFOON, who call him self EVEIL E).

the current situation in somalia is stable. there are some clan wars. but this is only situawated in the old capital of mogadishu. hey, RASOL dont belive that stuff said by white people that all of somalia is anerkie. the countary is developing at the moment, and it is BOOMING.

funny thing is for a countary out of control somalia has the most advanced telecommunication compared to other african nations. But there is some issues which needs to be sorted out, before moving on.

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as a somali i sit here and laugh on how ignorant RASSOL knows the situation within somalia.

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RASSOL i do agree somalians are brutal in a scence.

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BUT somalies are not known to be racists or comit ethnic cleansing, like the hutus.

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Rwanda's history is 'was' less violent and chauvenistic than many other nations;

and by analogy the somali would be more akin to the tutsi, not the hutu- again by analogy, the hutu would be more akin to the Jareer

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and nither are we stupid to fall in a trap set out by europeans. the urrent situation in somalia is stable.

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in one sense i may be naive.

i actually read your entire post hoping that you would address the question i asked: considering Rwanda as a context - how exactly would we 'take back' the term, Hamite?

instead, i conclude that i struck a nerve;

and you responded by striking an emptily defensive posture.

i'd be more reassured if you actually answered the question. lol.

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Originally posted by rasol:
I suspect Wally is saying that Ham is derived from Kem which means Black.

The ironic thing about almost all the pseudo-terms utilised in anthropology to divide and mislabel Africans is that they almost all invariably reference skin color.

Black means Black.
Negro means Black.
Hamite means Black.
Moor means Black.
Aethiopes [notwithstanding the possible Kemetic root of Ethoshi] means Black.
Kemite, the most authentically Black African term...means Black.

Now the question of which terms are appropriate for African scholarly use, is a very interesting one.

Wally - considering Rwanda as a context - how exactly would we 'take back' the term, Hamite?

It's been suggested before that if the Somali play the fool and take the bait of the Hamite fallacy like the Tutsi did....history will repeat itself.

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Thanx rasol for sparing me the effort of restating what by now should be common knowledge...

The problem with the Tutsi and the Somali has nothing at all to do with the label "Hamite"; it is a question of a more sophisticated people (ie, Western Imperialism) finessing a relatively unsophisticated people. Both the Somali and Tutsi cultures are 'stuck' in a bygone era.

Interviewer: Do the Gunju people think themselves superior to the Kwaji or Nkulu people?
Gunju Man: Yes
Interviewer: Do the Gunju people think themselves to be superior to all other Africans?
Gunju Man: Yes
Interviewer: How about white people or Arabs?
Gunju Man: Gunju are superior to everyone...
Label the Gunju "Hamite" and say they are superior to other Africans and you merely echo an ideology that already exists. You simply exploit a given weakness in order to perpetuate your control of the situation.

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Originally posted by rasol:

Wally - considering Rwanda as a context - how exactly would we 'take back' the term, Hamite?

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:
Well if I may add my .02, I'd suggest we need to find out how the Egyptians used the word Hamite and who it applied to.

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Of course we know they used the word Kemet, in various forms and they applied it to themselves, Hamite is a Hebrew semitic term...for Kemite, both words essentially mean Black.

The Descendents of Ham

Hamite
1. a descendant of Ham. Gen. 10:1, 6-10.
2. a member of any of various peoples of northern and eastern Africa,
usually divided into two branches:

1. Eastern Branch— Ancient and Modern Egyptians (excluding the Arabs), Nubians, Beja, Ethiopians, Oromo (Galla), Afar (Danakil), Somali, Masai, Watusi.

2. Northern Branch— Berbers of the Mediterranean-Atlantic and Sahara, Tibbu, Fulani (Peul), Guanches (extinct).

Hamitic
The Hamitic subfamily is generally considered to include ancient Egyptian (see Egyptian language) and its descendant, Coptic; the Berber languages; and the Cushitic languages. Ancient Egyptian and Coptic are extinct. Some linguists also place the Chad languages within the Hamitic subfamily. Those Hamitic tongues are or were spoken in N Africa, much of the Sahara, the Horn of E Africa, and parts of central and W Africa. They were named after Ham, the second son of the biblical Noah, whose descendants supposedly were the original speakers of the Hamitic languages.
The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia Copyright (c) 1994, 2000, Columbia University Press. Licensed from Columbia University Press. All rights reserved.

Berbers (?)
"...Berber is a strange tongue that can be related to all kinds of languages...Specialists in Berber are careful not to insist on the relationship between Berber and Egyptian."
Diop, C. A. The African Origin of Civilization, pp68-9, Lawrence Hill

Egyptian language
Extinct language of ancient Egypt that is generally classified as a member of the Hamitic subfamily of the Hamito-Semitic family of languages. The development of ancient Egyptian is usually divided into four periods: (1) Old Egyptian, spoken and written in Egypt during the IV to VI dynasties of the Old Kingdom (3d millennium B.C.); (2) Middle Egyptian, a form of the language noted for its great literature and current from the XI dynasty (beginning 2134 B.C.) to the reign of Ikhnaton (c.1372–1354 B.C.) in the XVIII dynasty; (3) Late Egyptian, which was used from the time of Ikhnaton through the XX dynasty of the 12th cent. B.C.; and (4) demotic, dating from the late 8th cent. B.C. to the 5th cent. A.D. The ancient Egyptian language first used a hieroglyphic form of writing that underwent several stages of development in the course of the centuries. From hieroglyphics evolved an Egyptian cursive handwriting known as hieratic; and from hieratic, a simplified script called demotic, in which was recorded the form of the Egyptian language also called demotic. Egyptian hieroglyphics and the styles of writing derived from them are associated with pagan civilization. Their extinction followed the victory of Christianity over the pagan religions. Some scholars regard Coptic as a fifth period of ancient Egyptian, although others classify it as a different language descended from the ancient tongue. If Coptic, which is written in a modified version of the Greek alphabet, is considered a continuation of the Egyptian language, a written record of the latter may be said to cover an unbroken span of at least 40 centuries, the longest such record known for a language.
The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia Copyright (c) 1994, 2000, Columbia University Press. Licensed from Columbia University Press. All rights reserved.

Beja
Many scholars believe the Beja to be derived from early Egyptians because of their language and physical features. They are the indigenous people of this area, and we first know of them in historical references in the Sixth Dynasty of ancient Egypt.

The Beja people are an ancient Cushitic people closely kin to the ancient Egyptians, who have lived in the desert between the Nile river and the Red Sea since at least 25000 BC.
See Seligman, C. G. Races of Africa. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1978

Oromo or Galla
Hamitic pastoral tribes who live in W and S Ethiopia and part of Kenya. They number about 20 million and are largely Muslim. Originally from N Somalia, they later migrated to the region of Lake Turkana (Lake Rudolf). In the mid-16th cent. they began to move into the Ethiopian highlands. Never a united group, they were not a serious threat to the Ethiopian state. Their raids, however, were a considerable nuisance, and they were able to establish small states in many areas nominally controlled by the Ethiopian emperor. They were used as mercenary soldiers by the Ethiopians.
See G. W. B. Huntingford, The Galla of Ethiopia (1955, repr. 1969); H. S. Lewis, A Galla Monarchy (1965).

Somali
The vast majority of the republic's population is Somali; they speak a Cushitic language and are Sunni Muslims. They are divided into five principal clans and many sub clans. Somali formed part of the Egyptian ancestral homeland of Punt.

The Land of Punt (Cradle of the Egyptian race)
-Pounit; pwonit : "country of the first existence"
-Punt, ancient land S of Egypt accessible by way of the Red Sea. Its
exact location has not been identified, but it probably included the Somali
coast. Temple reliefs at Deir el Bahari in W Thebes depict an Egyptian
expedition to Punt in the reign of Hatshepsut.
The Columbia Encyclopedia, Edition 6, 2000 p31655.

-Punt, the original home of the gods...
-after inspecting the results of her (Hatshepsut) expedition, the queen
immediately presented a portion of them to Amon, together with the impost of Nubia, with which Punt was always classed.
J.H. Breasted, A History Of Egypt, Part 1, pp274-277

-the Puntites, who are pictured as a long-haired Hamitic people, closely resembling the Egyptians.
Reproduced in Biography Resource Center. Farmington Hills, Mich.: TheGale Group. 2003.

Afar
1. a member of a nomadic Muslim people living in Eritrea, Djibouti, and northern Ethiopia.
2. the Northern Cushitic language spoken by the Afars. Also called Danakil.

Masai
The famous people of East Africa (Kenya and Tanzania) .

Watutsi

"Genesis of the Pharaohs"
Review of "Genesis of the Pharaohs" by Toby Wilkinson - Thames & Hudson press:
"Generations of scholars, tourists and armchair travellers have been intrigued by the puzzle of ancient Egypt's origins(1). Now, in the light of Toby Wilkinson's dramatic new discoveries, the genesis of the pharaohs is at last coming into focus. But the picture that emerges is not what we imagined. The ancestors of the pyramid-builders were not village-dwelling farmers, but wandering cattle-herders, and pharaonic civilization was forged in one of the most forbidding places on Earth: the Eastern Desert, between the Nile Valley and the Red Sea(2). Here, the pharaohs' distant ancestors left a stunning legacy that has remained hidden for 6,000 years: hundreds of intricate rock carvings in which the origins of later pharaonic imagery is clearly discernible. Toby Wilkinson traces the discovery of these ancient records, dates them, and identifies the artists who made them, basing his own discoveries in the heart of the Eastern Desert."

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The Descendents of Ham

Hamite
1. a descendant of Ham. Gen. 10:1, 6-10.

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In Genesis Ham is a term used by Hebrews to discribe Africans as essentially "Blacks", this applies to all Africans.

This is also associated with the curse on Ham, in Hebrew/Bible mythology.

How do we tkae back the term Ham when it is used in a Biblical context, by non-Blacks as a curse upon Blacks?

Note, I am familiar with two tactics of, in my opinion dissembling over this:

1) The curse is really on one of Ham's sons and not Ham.

2) Ham does not refer to Africans or Blacks, but only to some select peoples that the Hebrews knew [or something??].

Here's the point: Wally, you and I are interested in the fact that the Hebrews knew that the Egyptians were Blacks. We separate this out from the religious mythology. But for many African Christians, this is not acceptible of course. To call them Hamites is to imply that they are cursed in the Bible. How to resolve?

The second definition of Hamite [the ethnic/anthropological definition], presents a far nastier problem...to be continued.

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2. a member of any of various peoples of northern and eastern Africa,
usually divided into two branches:

1. Eastern Branch— Ancient and Modern Egyptians (excluding the Arabs), Nubians, Beja, Ethiopians, Oromo (Galla), Afar (Danakil), Somali, Masai, Watusi.

2. Northern Branch— Berbers of the Mediterranean-Atlantic and Sahara, Tibbu, Fulani (Peul), Guanches (extinct).

---

This is the Western Anthropological definition.

In this definition, some Africans are Hamites, and some are not.

Notice the Watusi who speak a Bantu Language are described as Hamites, but the Hutu are not.

The Berbers, including the fair skinned "white" Berbers, who speak an Afrasan language are Hamites, but the Hausa, whose language is just as closely related to Ancient Egyptian....are not.

In fact, this definition of Hamite is not based upon the word "Black".

It is not based upon a common language.

It is not based upon culture, or phenotype.

It is based upon one thing only: caucasoid [as opposed to Hebrew] mythology.

The Hamites in fact are in principal:

* The native white races of Africa.
* The whites who turned Black.
* The whites who are mixed with Blacks.

The sole function of Hamitic in ws.t anthroplogy is to juxtapose the equally dubious concept of Negro. In terms of anthropology, it never has served any other purpose. What precisely is it you would have us "take back", and to what resultant level of understanding.

When we are finished "taking back", the Hausa will be Hamites (?), and the Kayble.... will not (?)

A final thought [for now ]

Hamite is to Rwanda, as Aryan is to Germany.

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Originally posted by rasol:

Of course we know they used the word Kemet, in various forms and they applied it to themselves, Hamite is a Hebrew semitic term...for Kemite, both words essentially mean Black.

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I don't necessarily agree with this. The word Kam was probably never pronounced the way it would be pronounced in English. I've heard modern Egyptians pronouce the "K" and it has a different sound. It sounds more like a really hard "H" than a "K". A more accurate spelling of Kam might be Kham. This is probably how the ancient Egyptians pronouced it. In other words, Ham is Kam, which would make Ham an Egyptian word.

Note that it is possible that Ham is used in the bible the same way the Egyptians used Kam.

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:

In Genesis Ham is a term used by Hebrews to discribe Africans as essentially "Blacks", this applies to all Africans.

This is also associated with the curse on Ham, in Hebrew/Bible mythology.

How do we tkae back the term Ham when it is used in a Biblical context, by non-Blacks as a curse upon Blacks?

Note, I am familiar with two tactics of, in my opinion dissembling over this:

1) The curse is really on one of Ham's sons and not Ham.

2) Ham does not refer to Africans or Blacks, but only to some select peoples that the Hebrews knew [or something??].

Here's the point: Wally, you and I are interested in the fact that the Hebrews knew that the Egyptians were Blacks. We separate this out from the religious mythology. But for many African Christians, this is not acceptible of course. To call them Hamites is to imply that they are cursed in the Bible. How to resolve?

----------------

This is the Western Anthropological definition.

In this definition, some Africans are Hamites, and some are not.

Notice the Watusi who speak a Bantu Language are described as Hamites, but the Hutu are not.

The Berbers, including the fair skinned "white" Berbers, who speak an Afrasan language are Hamites, but the Hausa, whose language is just as closely related to Ancient Egyptian....are not.

In fact, this definition of Hamite is not based upon the word "Black".

It is not based upon a common language.

It is not based upon culture, or phenotype.

It is based upon one thing only: caucasoid [as opposed to Hebrew] mythology.

The Hamites in fact are in principal:

* The native white races of Africa.
* The whites who turned Black.
* The whites who are mixed with Blacks.

The sole function of Hamitic in ws.t anthroplogy is to juxtapose the equally dubious concept of Negro. In terms of anthropology, it never has served any other purpose. What precisely is it you would have us "take back", and to what resultant level of understanding.

When we are finished "taking back", the Hausa will be Hamites (?), and the Kayble.... will not (?)

A final thought [for now ]

Hamite is to Rwanda, as Aryan is to Germany.

Discuss.......

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You've raised some interesting points.

tell us more about the curse.

a) why was curse inflicted

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Originally posted by COBRA:
this is realy interesting rasol!!

tell us more about the curse.

a) why was curse inflicted

b) what are the effect of the curse

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:
[B] A more accurate spelling of Kam might be Kham. This is probably how the ancient Egyptians pronouced it. In other words, Ham is Kam, which would make Ham an Egyptian word.

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quote:

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Note that it is possible that Ham is used in the bible the same way the Egyptians used Kam.

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:
Note that it is possible that Ham is used in the bible the same way the Egyptians used Kam.

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Originally posted by rasol:
As opposed to Kem? Elaborate.

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Not quite. I'll start with your definition above.

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Originally posted by rasol:
Hamite
1. a descendant of Ham. Gen. 10:1, 6-10.

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and

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
In Genesis Ham is a term used by Hebrews to discribe Africans as essentially "Blacks", this applies to all Africans.

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Various words in the Egyptian language that have the root Kam mean "Egyptain". My question from the beginning is who did they consider Egyptian?

The sons of Ham in the Bible were Cush, Mizraim, Put, and Canaan. We know who Cush and Canaan are. Mizraim means dual mound or fortress, ie Upper and Lower. This is a Hebrew word for Egypt and the name for the country to this day. I don't know what Put is. Maybe Punt?

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

Why HIDE your thoughts?

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I am doing so only temporarily. I'm working on a little something right now that pertains to the topic of ancient Egyptian culture (on top of school work ) but I plan on sharing my results with you people on this forum. In the meantime it's kinda surprise and I'm doing research and gathering more data.

The problem I think is that too many scholars of linguistics and philology focus more finding Indo-European connections than connections between peoples of other linguistic or ethnic groups. For example, most scholars who work on Asian ethno-linguistic groups are Asian and African ones African. Not that there's a problem with this, in fact researchers who are of, or at least have some ties to the cultures and languages they are studying have more accurate input, but it's just that the more 'popular' info we hear about are those from Western scholars and it just seems to me that not enough Western scholars are getting into non-European studies.

For example the only scholar I know that has been making contributions in the study of Afro-Asiatic is Christopher Ehret. And I just found out about Drs. Elizabeth Dunstan and David Hall only recently.

how whites normally view Somali folk!
http://www.answers.com/topic/somalia-affair

...The soldiers, wearing night-vision goggles, had been lying in wait for the Somalis, in what some had referred to as a "hunting expedition." One army surgeon reported the dead teen had been shot in the head from close range after being wounded. ...

...Video footage of another airborne soldier Corporal Matt McKay, was found. When asked if he had any complaints about the mission he stated that "we ain't killed enough niggers yet."...

...Adding to the damage were allegations that an attempt to cover-up the events had stretched high into the defense staff. Important records and documents could not be found and there were allegations that they had been ordered destroyed. ...

...Soon the scrutiny of the behaviour of Canada's military outside the airborne turned up more disturbing stories. Incidents of sexual-harassment against women were revealed, lapses in discipline, brutal traditions, and a failure in command were found in other units. ...

...Italian troops were photographed raping a Somali woman and Belgian soldiers took photographs of themselves urinating on and burning Somalis. ...

http://www.netnomad.com/ilaria.html

let me start of.

i am muslim and thats first.

number two, i am a somali.

number three, i am black.

i hope i put an image of my self in your minde.

i dont care the colour of a persons skin, weather he is green, red, black or white. This is due to my religon. All muslims are equal in the sight of GOD.

know i think i built a basic foundation to argue your statements.

America is a nation of racists and terrorists. it murders muslims and others due to their religon and colour. it only gave black people the chance to vote recently.

the Americans and the Europeans are hated all throught the muslim world. let me hasaten this are the goverments i am r
talking about not the populkations.

"Now y'all pay attention now ya heah!"

From the Mdu Ntr

ham;hamom: to be hot, heat
kmem; kmom; khem : to become black, to blacken, burn to black
kemi, chemmi, khemi: black
khemi (qemi): an "Upper Egyptian"
rmk: "people of black" ; in Coptic Rmk = "Egyptian"

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From the Old Testament Hebrew:

Black
Original Word Word Origin
rmk: a primitive root
Transliterated Word: Kamar
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
kaw-mar' Verb

Definition: to yearn, be kindled, be black (hot), grow warm and tender, be or grow hot, become hot, become emotionally agitated
(Niphal)

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The above information should establish beyond any doubt that the etymology of "Ham", "Sons of Ham", and "Hamite" is from the Mdu Ntr and which essentially means "Blacks", "Africans", "Egyptians" and other related synonyms.

quote:

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Originally posted by Wally:
Gentlemen,

"Now y'all pay attention now ya heah!"

From the Mdu Ntr

ham;hamom: to be hot, heat
kmem; kmom; khem : to become black, to blacken, burn to black
kemi, chemmi, khemi: black
khemi (qemi): an "Upper Egyptian"
rmk: "people of black" ; in Coptic Rmk = "Egyptian"

The above information should establish beyond any doubt that the etymology of "Ham", "Sons of Ham", and "Hamite" is from the Mdu Ntr and which essentially means "Blacks", "Africans", "Egyptians" and other related synonyms.

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I suppose 'ham' is also used in this manner in Coptic, from which much of aid for the decipherment of Mdu Ntr comes. The alternative answer would lie in the reconstruction of kemetic letters/alphabets, again with the aid of Coptic (lest there is an alternative aid source out there), and then coming across this word 'ham' or 'hamom' as you pointed out, in some Kemetic script. If this is the case, from which Kemetic record/script does this word make its appearance? Needless to say, this word would then be related to that of biblical reference. Further clarification on this would be appreciated.

quote:

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Originally posted by Super car:
I suppose 'ham' is also used in this manner in Coptic, from which much of aid for the decipherment of Mdu Ntr comes. The alternative answer would lie in the reconstruction of kemetic letters/alphabets, again with the aid of Coptic (lest there is an alternative aid source out there), and then coming across this word 'ham' or 'hamom' as you pointed out, in some Kemetic script. If this is the case, from which Kemetic record/script does this word make its appearance? Needless to say, this word would then be related to that of biblical reference. Further clarification on this would be appreciated.

[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 03 May 2005).]

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Egypt: the Land of Ham
Psalms 105.23, .27; 106.22

Sahidic Coptic
kame: black
kemi: black
kmme: black
kmom: be, become black
Khme: 'Egypt'
khmi: make hot
khmom: be hot
Rmnk: 'Egyptian' (correction)

Hebrew
kham: hot

Stay tuned...

quote:

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Originally posted by Super car:
You've raised some interesting points.

[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 02 May 2005).]

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quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
I suspect Wally is saying that Ham is derived from Kem which means Black.

The ironic thing about almost all the pseudo-terms utilised in anthropology to divide and mislabel Africans is that they almost all invariably reference skin color.

Black means Black.
Negro means Black.
Hamite means Black.
Moor means Black.
Aethiopes [notwithstanding the possible Kemetic root of Ethoshi] means Black.
Kemite, the most authentically Black African term...means Black.

Now the question of which terms are appropriate for African scholarly use, is a very interesting one.

Wally - considering Rwanda as a context - how exactly would we 'take back' the term, Hamite?

It's been suggested before that if the Somali play the fool and take the bait of the Hamite fallacy like the Tutsi did....history will repeat itself.

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Dear Rasol,

Can you please give more details for a lay person like me, indeed you write:"take the bait of the Hamite fallacy like the Tutsi did". Please be more specific: do you have any source?

Thanks in advance

quote:

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Ham·ite ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hmt)
n.
A member of a group of peoples of northern and northeast Africa, including the Berbers, Tuaregs, and the ancient Egyptians and their descendants.
Etymology: Ham

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And Ham was the father of Canaan. gen 9:22

quote:

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They (ie, settlers entering Gedor in Canaan) found rich, good pasture, and the land was very broad, quiet, and peaceful; for the former inhabitants there belonged to Ham. 1 ch 4:40

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Do you think that maybe this was the justification for the curse put on Canaan, and only on Canaan? Land!

Egypt: The Land of Ham

quote:

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He smote all the first-born in Egypt, the first issue of their strength in the tents of Ham. ps 78:51

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quote:

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There Israel came to Egypt; Jacob sojourned in the land of Ham. ps 105:23

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quote:

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They wrought his signs among them, and miracles in the land of Ham...They forgot God, their savior, who had done great things in Egypt, wondrous works in the land of Ham. ps 105:27; 106:21-2

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quote:

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Do you think that maybe this was the justification for the curse put on Canaan, and only on Canaan? Land!

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Of course, that is Diops interpretation as well.

quote:

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Originally posted by relaxx:

Dear Rasol,

Can you please give more details for a lay person like me, indeed you write:"take the bait of the Hamite fallacy like the Tutsi did". Please be more specific: do you have any source?
Thanks in advance

Relaxx

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Your question isn't specific but I'll give it a try.

SAFE SANCTUARY?: THE ROLE OF THE CHURCH IN GENOCIDE
Camille Karangwa

As soon as they arrived in Rwanda in the 1900s, the first settlers and white
missionaries found a well-structured country ruled by the Mwami. Even though
the power was concentrated in the hands of the Tutsi minority, the
missionaries did not deign to protest against this situation.

They even found it natural and went as far as asserting that the Tutsi were
intellectually superior to the Hutus and were the only ones able to rule the
country. They invented the Hamite myth that said the Tutsi were actually
white men with a black skin. They developed typologies that were probably
influenced by the evolutionist theories that were fashionable in those days.

The schools they opened were almost exclusively reserved for Tutsi children.
They also made an obvious effort to convert to their religion numerous
children from the aristocracy.

For decades, both the Belgian colonial power therefore relied on the Tutsi,
stockbreeders more akin to a cast than to an ethnic group, to rule the
country and dominate the Hutu farmers, by far the largest group in the
country.

But in the late 1950's, when the Tutsi elite started to wave claims of
independence and the Mwami contemplated appealing to the United Nations,
both Belgium and the Church decided to defend the democratic rights of the
Hutu majority, embodied by Grégoire Kayibanda, former secretary of the
bishop of Kabgayi and founder of the Party for the Promotion of the Hutu
People (ParmeHutu).
---------------------------------------------

Tharcisse Gatwa, Resisting deomocracy in Rwanda -

We begin further back with the role of the colonial powers and Christian missions in elaborating the ideologies which have shaped the recent history of the continent. Elsewhere I have argued that from the 1880s Rwanda was subjected to external influences which constructed a meta-narrative founded on the Hamite myth. In fact, the Banyarwanda, the group of people which the explorers and then the missionaries encountered, were distributed into three social categories: the Bahutu, Batutsi and Batwa. These people had been living relatively peacefully together, sharing many common factors, including cultural unity, language, religion, major social organizations like the clan and family habits such as intermarriage. Out of that encounter between the West and Rwandan society, "a classic piece of Victorian anthropology, influenced by social Darwinism, placed the Tutsi aristocracy as part of a 'Hamitic invasion' from Ethiopia and the northeast, supposedly superior to Bantu autochthones". The Batutsi were chosen by the new rulers, colonialists and the missionaries to promote "western civilization founded on Christianity". The other groups, the Bahutu and Batwa, constituted a mass of roturiers (commoners) relegated to the status of second-class citizens. Discriminatory policies in education, evangelism, and the public sphere reinforced the supposed differences. An ethnic and then racist ideology emerged out of the meta-narrative.

------------------------------------------------

The local elite, comprising the traditional Batutsi nobility and then the educated and the post-independence Bahutu politicians, assimilated these constructs. Colonial emancipation in the 1940s/50s led the victims of discrimination to stand against the "Hamite" supremacy. The conservative ruling class, entrenched in their feelings of supremacy, clashed with those petitioning for greater equality and justice. Surprisingly, the colonial rulers and the Catholic Church, the former defenders of the Hamite theory, converted to the Bahutu cause. All of this generated the 1959 social revolution which initiated Bahutu rule but left Rwandan society fractured and thousands of Batutsis in exile. A new ideology claiming the "rule of the indigenous majority" versus the "Hamites, foreign conquerors" was born. Subsequently, the shadow of the Hamite myth blocked any chance of healing the wounds. The churches were part of the conflict and could not meet the need for reconciliation. They lived in complicity with the regime and were affected by internal "ethnic" divisions they never attempted to resolve.[/i]
-------------------------------------------

FLAWED ETHNIC CLASSIFICATIONS EXCERBATE CONFLICT IN AFRICA
QUESTIONABLE AND DESCREDITED COLONIAL MYTHS

LEGACY OF DEADLY ANTHROPOLOGY

Africa's most violent large scale conflicts manifest a virulent misinterpretation of group consciousness constructed along lines of colonial classification of African ethnicity. The classification divides Africans into three groups, Hamite, Bantu, and Nilote. This is a devastating racial coding based on erroneous assumptions advanced by racial supremacists and misguided scholars.

Relying on a pervasive racist myth of the origin of black slavery, an American anthropologist, C.G Seligman advanced the argument that the whites had gone to Africa intermarried and produced a nation of "black-skinned" whites. He appropriated the name Hamites for these 'white-blacks', and claimed that other blacks were not Hamites, but merely Negroes who constitute a subhuman species.

This theory came about because of the misreading of a biblical text, in combination with political rivalries dating back to the crusades. The term 'Hamite' derives from 'Ham' one of the mythical 'Sons of Noah' who was a biblical archetype. In the bible the blacks are referred to as the children/people of Ham (or as Hamites). Africa is the 'Land of Ham (Khem)'. Consider analogies in biblical lingo, "the Children of Israel", the 'Land of Shem' etc,.

Ham is the ancient Egyptian word for Africans. Africa and Egypt have many names in ancient times, but they are interchangeably called 'Khemet'. Before Seligman, every black person was a Khemet, Hamite, etc i.e., a child of Ham, also Hem, Kem, Kham or Kem. Egypt is a Greek corruption of the phrase "Hiku Ptah" meaning Spirit Temple of the god Ptah. The temple of Ptah was a popular destination located in the north, and foreigners came to know the region by the name of the temple. In fact the whole of what is now Africa (including Egypt) was called Khemet (ie. the land of Ham). It was subdivided into different regions, eg Ta Meht, Ta Resu, Ta She, Ta Seti.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:
The word Kam was probably never pronounced the way it would be pronounced in English. I've heard modern Egyptians pronounce the "K" and it has a different sound. It sounds more like a really hard "H" than a "K". A more accurate spelling of Kam might be Kham. This is probably how the ancient Egyptians pronounced it. In other words, Ham is Kam, which would make Ham an Egyptian word.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:
The word Kam was probably never pronounced the way it would be pronounced in English. I've heard modern Egyptians pronounce the "K" and it has a different sound. It sounds more like a really hard "H" than a "K". A more accurate spelling of Kam might be Kham. This is probably how the ancient Egyptians pronounced it. In other words, Ham is Kam, which would make Ham an Egyptian word.

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Wally follows up:

quote:

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:
Absolutely --
This is an excellent and valuable lesson on the Mdu Ntr!

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That is what I thought; that perhaps, 'ham' is nothing more than a development of what Kem-au pointed out earlier, in terms of how Kem or "Kham" is actually pronounced by Egyptians, with some emphasis to the sound of "h". This may account for the lack of the word, as it is spelt in the form 'ham', in Kemetic texts.

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:

Your question isn't specific but I'll give it a try.

SAFE SANCTUARY?: THE ROLE OF THE CHURCH IN GENOCIDE
Camille Karangwa

As soon as they arrived in Rwanda in the 1900s, the first settlers and white
missionaries found a well-structured country ruled by the Mwami. Even though
the power was concentrated in the hands of the Tutsi minority, the
missionaries did not deign to protest against this situation.

They even found it natural and went as far as asserting that the Tutsi were
intellectually superior to the Hutus and were the only ones able to rule the
country. They invented the Hamite myth that said the Tutsi were actually
white men with a black skin. They developed typologies that were probably
influenced by the evolutionist theories that were fashionable in those days.

The schools they opened were almost exclusively reserved for Tutsi children.
They also made an obvious effort to convert to their religion numerous
children from the aristocracy.

For decades, both the Belgian colonial power therefore relied on the Tutsi,
stockbreeders more akin to a cast than to an ethnic group, to rule the
country and dominate the Hutu farmers, by far the largest group in the
country.

But in the late 1950's, when the Tutsi elite started to wave claims of
independence and the Mwami contemplated appealing to the United Nations,
both Belgium and the Church decided to defend the democratic rights of the
Hutu majority, embodied by Grégoire Kayibanda, former secretary of the
bishop of Kabgayi and founder of the Party for the Promotion of the Hutu
People (ParmeHutu).

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Super car:
Kem-au wrote:
That is what I thought; that perhaps, 'ham' is nothing more than a development of what Kem-au pointed out earlier, in terms of how Kem or "Kham" is actually pronounced by Egyptians, with some emphasis to the sound of "h". This may account for the lack of the word, as it is spelt in the form 'ham', in Kemetic texts.

[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 05 May 2005).]

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"ham" is listed in Kemetic texts and is listed in Budge's dictionary, and has the same meaning as "khm and khmm".
It appears that the Pharaonic Egyptian words "km", "Khm", "hm", "Hmm", "Qm" are all related and have similar meanings "heat, hot, black, burnt, etc." - the nuances probably were tonal...
"hmm" can also mean "sick with fever"
"qemi" (kHAMi (?)) also referred to southern Egypt

living examples
Kem-au gave the example of modern Egyptians,
we can also use other African languages for clues, for example:
"khem" (Wolof)- burnt to black and pronounced > k-Ham

In Hebrew; "kam" means "hot, heat, black"; a borrowed word from the Mdu Ntr

from Dictionary.com

quote:

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ham
warm, hot, and hence the south; also an Egyptian word meaning "black", the
youngest son of Noah (Gen. 5:32; comp. 9:22,24). The curse pronounced by Noah
against Ham, properly against Canaan his fourth son, was accomplished when the
Jews subsequently exterminated the Canaanites. One of the most important facts
recorded in Gen. 10 is the foundation of the earliest monarchy in Babylonia by
Nimrod the grandson of Ham (6, 8, 10). The primitive Babylonian empire was thus
Hamitic, and of a cognate race with **the primitive inhabitants of Arabia and of
Ethiopia. (See ACCAD.) The race of Ham were the most energetic of all the
descendants of Noah in the early times of the post-diluvian world.
Source: Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary

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**note: the primitive inhabitants of both Arabia and Ethiopia were Negroes (in the anthropological sense); ie, Black Africans (in the political sense).

quote:

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Originally posted by Wally:

I'll repeat myself; it is possible to find out more about the Ancient Egyptians by studying the Mdu Ntr than it is by virtually any other method. It certainly, of course, shouldn't be the only method used...

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Thought Writes:

Why is that Wally?

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Originally posted by Wally:

**note: the primitive inhabitants of both Arabia and Ethiopia were Negroes (in the anthropological sense); ie, Black Africans (in the political sense).

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Thought Writes:

What is a 'Negroe' in anthropological terms, Wally?

quote:

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it is possible to find out more about the Ancient Egyptians by studying the Mdu Ntr than it is by virtually any other method.

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Primary texts, linguistics, archeology, genetics...all are valuable.

quote:

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Wally:

"ham" is listed in Kemetic texts and is listed in Budge's dictionary, and has the same meaning as "khm and khmm".
It appears that the Pharaonic Egyptian words "km", "Khm", "hm", "Hmm", "Qm" are all related and have similar meanings "heat, hot, black, burnt, etc." - the nuances probably were tonal...
"hmm" can also mean "sick with fever"
"qemi" (kHAMi (?)) also referred to southern Egypt

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You said that "ham" was a Kemetic word, right? Well, my question was, from which Kemetic text does this word makes its appearance, in the form that you pointed out? One or two examples of specific Kemetic texts that use this word, as you spelt it out, is what I am looking for.

Apparently, if the deciphers listed this word as a Kemetic one, they must have come across it on a specific Kemetic text or script, and would hence, make a reference to this source.

Ps-Alternatively, is/was "ham" found in any Coptic word or text, which again, is the major aid for Mdu Ntr decipherment?