Does anybody here read the Wisdom Texts of the ancient Egyptians? Some of them date back to the Old Kingdom into the Late Dyanstic Period and even into the Greco-Roman period.
Some of the few I have read is:
The Instructions Of Ptahhotep
The Satire of the Trades
Instructions of Merikare
Please add more and tell us more about what Wisdom Texts you have read.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I have not read the full translations but I have read excerpts and commentary on them from authors like Hornung and Jan Bergman.
It appears many of them have hints of monotheism in the sense of One Supreme Being and they also appear to be precedents to certain texts of the current 3 dominant Judeo religions.
quote:Originally posted by ausar:
Does anybody here read the Wisdom Texts of the ancient Egyptians? Some of them date back to the Old Kingdom into the Late Dyanstic Period and even into the Greco-Roman period.
Some of the few I have read is:
The Instructions Of Ptahhotep
The Satire of the Trades
Instructions of Merikare
Please add more and tell us more about what Wisdom Texts you have read.
posted
I am not certain if this qualifies in quite the same way as other texts already mentioned from the Egyptian wisdom tradition. In fact, it may appear to some as allegorical and to others as a summation or commentary on that tradition. At the very least it is a short story - very brief, charming - and well worth the read...
Here is a little nugget for kovert (toao) might like to sink his teeth into - if he hasn't already. When I need sound advice, or a scolding, Ipuwer is my "go to guy". It is also possible that Isaiah relied upon him too. http://www.piney.com/BabEgIpuwer.html
Another text I forgot to mention was the Wisdom of Ani. Basically, the Wisdom Texts us insight not only into what the royalty in ancient Egypt though but also the commoners from all walks of life have their say in these texts. The philosopies and principles presented were universal.
Kovert, I believe there are some translations of these texts in Miriam Licthiem's various volumes on ancient Egyptian literature. This is the only real translation we have untill another scholar or Egyptologist decides to translate the texts further. My suggestion would to get the papyri yourself and translate it,so you don't have to worry about clumsy translations.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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"Do not be arrogant because of your knowledge; approach the unlettered as well as the wise. The summit of artistry cannot be reached, nor does craftsman ever attain pure mastery. More hidden than gems is chiseled expression yet found among slave girls grinding the grain." —from the Maxims of Ptahhotep
posted
From what I've read most of the current knowledge on AE society is of the elite. John Baines has an informative essay on the lack of knowledge on the conditions and perspectives of the vast majority of the population with some exceptions from the New Kingdom and later.
[This message has been edited by kovert, the one and only (edited 03 May 2005).]
I disagree with alot what John Baines says about literacy in ancient Egypt. Literacy had to be higher than what is suggested otherwise people would have not written Letters to the Dead to their departed ancestors. Most Egyptologist assume that the priesthood was an elitist insitution where nobody from the lower-calsses were administered,but I know the priesthood had regular contact with the people below. Often these two groups interacted and the priesthood would preform tasks for the commoner.
Around the New Kingdom we do see a trend of personal shrines and also ancestor shrines in the niche of people's houses. We also see such items as Ba houses which appear during the Middle Kingdom to allow lower class Egyptians to enjoy the same existence as the elite in the ''Field of Reeds'' or ''Field of Iru''
Here is an example of what I mean:
"Do not be arrogant because of your knowledge; confer then with the ignorant man as with the learned man. The limit of art has not been reached, and no artisan has mastered his craft. Beautiful speech is more hidden than malachite. It is found in the possession of the maidservant at the millstone." The Instructions of Ptahhotep http://www.hethert.org/wisdom.html
This is why I suggest that people learn the mdu ntr language or at least its later forms like Coptic. The following will help you in getting concepts from the ancient Egyptians. Language can serve as a time warp to bring back history that is forever lost to us. As in ancient Egypt the history is not written in the straight forward approach as in western Histography.
Still you can sense this from such Maxiams
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
ausar, I would say that it is highly unlikely that the lower classes were literate. If you assume that there was a small middle class (an it had to be small in that kind of economy) we could say they were probably literate. It is probable that people who could not write had script written for them.
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:ausar, I would say that it is highly unlikely that the lower classes were literate. If you assume that there was a small middle class (an it had to be small in that kind of economy) we could say they were probably literate. It is probable that people who could not write had script written for them.
What evidence do you base this conclusion on?
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
It is difficult to say how literate the lower classes were. I think the term "para-literate" is probably an apt description of them in the sense that certain signs and symbols were no doubt common currency and basic mathematics would be a necessity for any trade or barter done in the marketplace. Combine this with the fact that alpha-numerics integrates with popular icons and other important cultural benchmarks and the opportunity to acquire rudimentary written communications deepens. Standardization of icon and hieroglyph were vital to political unification and helped maintain a high level of bureaucratic efficiency. Moreover, it is certain that the first universities (Pharaoah's House of Life) attended to those and many other integral tasks. Also, because many Egyptian symbols borrowed from primitive sources, a kind of literary currency was already graven into pre-dynastic Egyptian society, allowing for further bonding of the already existing social psyche in such a way that the mode of communicating through icon and rebus became a value - a sacred trust in itself. The affiliations of Sheshat, Ma'at and Thoth symbolize the justified and therefore sacred nature of cultivated artiface and there is no getting around the fact that veneration of these netjer primaries transcended regional limitations at a reletively early stage in Egypt's history.
As for the priesthood's involvement - I have read in reliable sources that common men were expected to serve a portion of the year within the walls of the local temples - which would be a prime place to cultivate literary or, at the very least, para-literary skills. On the other hand, scribes were responsible for EXACT renderings of sacred verses etc. (a votive necessity) and performed this service on behalf of those who could afford them. Although the archeological record is biased towards elite forces in Egyptian society, there is no denying the prestigious lure of the scribes profession among lower and middle classes.
a bientot DMc
[This message has been edited by Pimander (edited 04 May 2005).]
posted
You're on point on the literacy since the charms and spells would be useless if the client could not read the words of power. And given the diversity of scripts and languages it would appear some of the clients would be literate in 3 or more languages.
Plus before the New Kingdom there was not a large professional priestly caste and most priests worked on a part time basis so we don't know how much of the temple "mysteries" got leaked to the general public when they went back their communities..
I think John Baines argument about the conditions of the vast majority of the populace and their relations with the elite or much more convincing.
quote:Originally posted by ausar:
I disagree with alot what John Baines says about literacy in ancient Egypt. Literacy had to be higher than what is suggested otherwise people would have not written Letters to the Dead to their departed ancestors. Most Egyptologist assume that the priesthood was an elitist insitution where nobody from the lower-calsses were administered,but I know the priesthood had regular contact with the people below. Often these two groups interacted and the priesthood would preform tasks for the commoner.
Around the New Kingdom we do see a trend of personal shrines and also ancestor shrines in the niche of people's houses. We also see such items as Ba houses which appear during the Middle Kingdom to allow lower class Egyptians to enjoy the same existence as the elite in the ''Field of Reeds'' or ''Field of Iru''
Here is an example of what I mean:
"Do not be arrogant because of your knowledge; confer then with the ignorant man as with the learned man. The limit of art has not been reached, and no artisan has mastered his craft. Beautiful speech is more hidden than malachite. It is found in the possession of the maidservant at the millstone." The Instructions of Ptahhotep http://www.hethert.org/wisdom.html
This is why I suggest that people learn the mdu ntr language or at least its later forms like Coptic. The following will help you in getting concepts from the ancient Egyptians. Language can serve as a time warp to bring back history that is forever lost to us. As in ancient Egypt the history is not written in the straight forward approach as in western Histography.
Still you can sense this from such Maxiams
[This message has been edited by kovert, the one and only (edited 04 May 2005).]
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