quote:

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Originally posted by jluis:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Super car:
[B] What has this to do with the indigenous physical variations within the continent? Are you suggesting that, without admixture with foreign groups, all Africans would have looked the same? Please clarify!

Yes, that was the original question.

I state that the physical variations of African people is directly related with the different ecosystems in Africa: Mediterranean (North) coast; Sahra desert; Sahel; Tropical/Equatorian forest and the like -we have not mention anything South of the Equator-.

This is the main source of variation. Or maybe I should say the original source. After that it cames the cultural (historical) one. There is when the coast/inland divide comes.
I don't say that there were NO exchanges between one and another, but that these exchanges were not equal. This is why people choose to exchange trade in the first time. And this asymmetry of trade and relationships, summed to the ecological variations of Africa, makes the diversity of human people we see today in Africa.

Notice that

(a) This features are functional both in Africa and in any other place on Earth.

(b) They radically downplay the relevance of cultural, civilitational and any other contingent explanations for human diversity.

(c) None of this contradicts the fact that Africa is the origin of Humanity

I hope you will agree on some of this.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Super car:
I fear that through all the noise, the main point may have been lost somewhere along the way. The point is, Africans don't conform to any "one" particular phenotype, [b]even regionally speaking, that is, in terms of east and west Africa, north and south Africa. For that reason, any comment along the lines of the "East African look" or the "West African look", and so on, begs the question of whatever happened to the visible diversity within each of these regions. [/B]

---

Thanks Super Car for that comment. I noticed that some people don't realize how Africa is diverse, I guess it's because they never went there: basically all physical features except the skin and the hair are found in Africa. For people who lived and lives outside Africa, the only distinctive features are skin and hair. That's why I really laugh when I hear something like Caucasian, I just have to go outside to laugh more when I look the way people look in my North American city.

Relaxx

Relaxx

quote:

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Originally posted by jluis:

I state that the physical variantions of African people is directly related with the different ecosystems in Africa: Mediterranean (North) coast;

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Thought Writes:

Have the humans now living in the Mediterranean (North) coast of Africa lived in this region long enough to adapt to the ecology? Is there only ONE Mediterranean (North) coastal ecology?

Are we speaking of the modern era? Even then the Sahara was never a barrier as the Garamantes from Fezzan traded as far south are modern Nigeria.

The Sahara only completely dried about 4,000 years ago. Before this period it was once more fertile than it was today.

One population that not many people speak of when dicussing the Magreb is the Haratin. The Haratin are believed to be the original inhabitants of the Sahara that form an agritcultural case of the Kel Tamelsheq[Tuareg]. Haratin are the original Saharans. Most live in the Oasis areas in Morocco,Algeria,and Libya.

Haratin are not desendants of slaves brought to the north. The people in Magreb that are desendants of slaves are the Gnawa brought from the Sahelian zone.

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:

jluis, are you aware that most Western Africans don't actually originate in the forest areas of Western Africa,but around the Central Saharan area when it was once more fertile. Most of the early remains in the Central Sahara and other regions like Fezzan have affinities with modern so-called sub-Saharan populations.

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Thought Writes:

Likewise modern NW Africans also derive from the same region as Y-Clade analysis indicates.

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:
More Sudanese:

Beja[desendants of Medijay Blemmeyes[Greco-Roman times]

The Jaaliyin of Sudan[Arabized Nubians]

---

ausar,or anyone here,are these arabized nubians still basic nubians in culture or more like the black arabs,in other words do the jaaliyin call theselves arabs first or nubians first.

i have an idea but i would like to hear your comments first.

quote:

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ausar,or anyone here,are these arabized nubians still basic nubians in culture or more like the black arabs,in other words do the jaaliyin call theselves arabs first or nubians first.

i have an idea but i would like to hear your comments first.

---

Alot of the bedouin tribes in parts of Egypt and Sudan adapted their culture of the local people,but kept the Arab idenity at the same same. The Nubians themselves became Arabized due to Arab intermarriaged in their family,and thus through this matrilineal decent the Nubians became more Arabized and the elite became more Arabic ethnically.

Similar things happened to the Beja people in Eastern Sudan.

Fundamentally, the Bedouins of the Western Desert are more culturally Egyptian than they think. The same goes with the Ababda bedouins around Aswan who are arabized Beja people. Still many of their local customs are like that of other Beja people.

Most Jaaliyin will say they are Arabs,but most people know they are just sedentary Nubians who took up the nomadic life of the Arabs.

Well, to start with the msg, I have to say that this kind of exchange is much more interesting and fruitful than the exchange of insults over long-time deceased racist theories. It is even better that the use of greco-roman quotations as flying weapons against the other.

About the case:

I am aware that modern W Africans did not originate in the forest belt but came from the North. I think nobody disputes this is linked to the final desertization of Sahra.

But I'd really like to know where is the maximum genetic diversity in Africa. Ausar's post seems to reflect the opinion that it was in the Sahel. Broadly speaking, somewhere between lake Chad and the Nile.

I do not agree and so present an alternative:

The most diverse point of Africa and so the point of origin of most of the current African people (and to anyone else, but OK. Let's focus in Africa) is East Africa. The line of mountains and lakes that cross E Africa from Ethiopia in the North to the Drakensbers in South Africa. This is the point or origin of most African. I refer here to the period of the last 20,000 years or so, not to the overall history of human kind.

From this mountain environment, people expand to the rest of Africa. The Great Lakes area and the Nile Basin is a clear gate for expansion and that explains the diversity we see now. But this diversity is secondary. The oldest diversity is somewhere in the Rift Valley or even further South.

Maybe the genetic experts in this forum can add some light to this contest: What is the oldest source of genetic diversity in Africa? Is it the Sahara "plains" of the East African "mountains"?

The people of the oasis of Sahara are not direct descendants of the people that lived there before the last dry-up, around 5,000 years ago. The original population was hunter-gatherer and so, very much mobile. They move as soon as saw the drought coming. Their descendant are now in W Africa, in N Africa (or maybe not, this is another interesting point of contest: did people from outside Africa re-colonised N Africa in the last few thousands years?) and, of course, in the Nile Valley. The current inhabitants of Sahara oasis are linked to neolitic expansion of cattle herders and maybe farmers.

Finally, I know where is the solution to this question: it is the Congo Basin. The day we can research the genetics and languages of the heart of Africa, now barred by war, we will have the answer.

Another interesting point for genetic research, now open to science, is the Zambeze and Limpopo rivers area. What about this? Anyone one have fresh info about human diversity south of the Equator?

quote:

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Originally posted by jluis:
[QUOTE]

The people of the oasis of Sahara are not direct descendants of the people that lived there before the last dry-up, around 5,000 years ago. The original population was hunter-gatherer and so, very much mobile. They move as soon as saw the drought coming. Their descendant are now in W Africa, in N Africa (or maybe not, this is another interesting point of contest: did people from outside Africa re-colonised N Africa in the last few thousands years?) and, of course, in the Nile Valley. The current inhabitants of Sahara oasis are linked to neolitic expansion of cattle herders and maybe farmers.

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Thought Writes:

We have been over this many times. Use the search feature on Egyptsearch.com. North, South, East, West and Central Africans are ALL "linked to neolitic expansion of cattle herders and maybe farmers" from the southern Sahara.

quote:

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Originally posted by jluis:
[QUOTE]

Finally, I know where is the solution to this question: it is the Congo Basin. The day we can research the genetics and languages of the heart of Africa, now barred by war, we will have the answer.

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Thought Writes:

If humans came out of East Africa why would the Congo Basin be the 'Heart of Africa'?

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

If humans came out of East Africa why would the Congo Basin be the 'Heart of Africa'?

---

I don't agree with the idea that "all comes from pastoral expansion". A good part of the people of W Africa and maybe all the Bantu people come from an earlier expansion. Hunter-gatherers, not cattle herders. In fact, according to the genetic data on lactose assimilation, the adoption of cattle herding as a livelihood could be quite recent for a good part of these pastoralist, all around the Sahel.

quote:

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In fact, according to the genetic data on lactose assimilation, the adoption of cattle herding as a livelihood could be quite recent for a good part of these pastoralist, all around the Sahel.

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What genetic data are you referring to here?

quote:

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Originally posted by Boqor:

what is with the way you write Thought? I find it very banal, just respond no need to add "Thought says: bla bla" like you are some kind of mystic lol

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Thought Writes:

The purpose is to add distinction between my opinion and sources I bring into the dialogue via quotes and references.

In my opinion being concerned with another mans writing style is real B*tch-Sh*t!

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
thought just reaches into his bag of weird historical theories that almost nobody believes in and there you are. Makes for bad history but at least it is original.

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Thought Writes:

Another non-specific example by Hoe-In-Him!

quote:

---

Originally posted by jluis:

I don't agree with the idea that "all comes from pastoral expansion". A good part of the people of W Africa and maybe all the Bantu people come from an earlier expansion. Hunter-gatherers, not cattle herders. In fact, according to the genetic data on lactose assimilation, the adoption of cattle herding as a livelihood could be quite recent for a good part of these pastoralist, all around the Sahel.

---

This was appropriately requested earlier: What genetic data are you basing these assertions on?

quote:

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jluis:
And the Congo Basin is call the hearth of Africa because there could be the answer to many of the questions that go around this forum once and again. And because it is the geographycal center of Africa, of course.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

In my opinion being concerned with another mans writing style is real B*tch-Sh*t!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

Another non-specific example by Hoe-In-Him!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
What genetic data are you referring to here?

---

For a recent article on lactase persistence:

Hollox (2005) Evolutionary Genetics: Genetics of lactase persistence - fresh lessons in the history of milk drinking
European Journal of Human Genetics (2005) 13, 267-269. doi:10.1038/sj.ejhg.5201297
http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/ejhg/journal/v 13/n3/abs/5201297a.html&dynoptions=doi1115752054

For a analysis of the diversity in the Old World, see:

Hollox et al. (2001) Lactase Haplotype Diversity in the Old WorldAm. J. Hum. Genet. 68:160–172, 2001

This is the opening sentence of the article:

"Lactase persistence, the genetic trait in which intestinal lactase activity persists at childhood levels into adulthood,
varies in frequency in different human populations, being most frequent in northern Europeans and certain African
and Arabian nomadic tribes, who have a history of drinking fresh milk. Selection is likely to have played an
important role in establishing these different frequencies since the development of agricultural pastoralism ª9,000
years ago."

This is a map of the main groups with the capacity to drink raw milk when adults.
(Sorry, I cannot post it directly)
[URL=http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VNH-48WJWGF-8&_coverDate=09%2F30%2F2003&_alid=275843375&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_qd=1&_cdi=6179&_sort=d&view=c&_a cct=C]http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VNH-48WJWGF-8&_coverDate=09%2F30%2F2003&_alid=275843375&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_qd=1&_cdi=6179&_sort=d&view=c&_ acct=C[/URL] 000035158&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=651519&md5=0156d221fc58f756d0007346a4aa8d85

Note that several tribes of the Sudan/Eritrea coast in the Red Sea have this genetic trait in a high degree. Quite interesting for our debates on Beja and others people origin.

They share this trait with Arabs, Palestinians, Czechs (slavic), Spaniards and Irish. I'd like to know how can explain this distribution the advocates of race.
If they can, then another piece of information: there are only three groups with a high degree outside the Red Coast: the Tutsi, a group in northern Nigeria and another in Benin. Try now to apply "race" to explain that.

Others African groups have this trait in a lesser degree and that includes the pastoralist of the Sahel and East Africa not cited above. This means that they get on cattle herding much more recently.

The time of the domestication of cattle is usually accepted in 9-10.000 years. The place is disputed, but central Anatolia is a good bet.

Here's the point: agriculture was invented in Africa in at least three centers, and maybe even four. In Africa, you find the earliest domestication of cattle. The location, the pottery and other materials we've found makes it likely that happened among the Nilo-Saharan peoples, the sites are in southern Egypt. There is an exceptionally strong correlation between archaeology and language on this issue. http://worldhistoryconnected.press.uiuc.edu/2.1/ehret.html

quote:

---

The ability to digest the milk sugar lactose as an adult (lactase persistence) is a variable genetic trait in human populations. The lactase-persistence phenotype is found at low frequencies in the majority of populations in sub-Saharan Africa that have been tested, but, in some populations, particularly pastoral groups, it is significantly more frequent. We typed this polymorphism in 1,671 individuals from 20 distinct cultural groups in seven African countries. It was possible to match seven of the groups tested with groups from the literature for whom phenotypic information is available. In five of these groups, the published frequencies of lactase persistence are >/=25%. We found the T allele to be so rare that it cannot explain the frequency of the lactase-persistence phenotype throughout Africa.

The T allele of a single-nucleotide polymorphism 13.9 kb upstream of the lactase gene (LCT) (C-13.9kbT) does not predict or cause the lactase-persistence phenotype in Africans.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jluis:

For a recent article on lactase persistence:

Hollox (2005) Evolutionary Genetics: Genetics of lactase persistence - fresh lessons in the history of milk drinking
European Journal of Human Genetics (2005) 13, 267-269. doi:10.1038/sj.ejhg.5201297
http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/ejhg/journal/v 13/n3/abs/5201297a.html&dynoptions=doi1115752054

For a analysis of the diversity in the Old World, see:

Hollox et al. (2001) Lactase Haplotype Diversity in the Old WorldAm. J. Hum. Genet. 68:160–172, 2001

This is the opening sentence of the article:

"Lactase persistence, the genetic trait in which intestinal lactase activity persists at childhood levels into adulthood,
varies in frequency in different human populations, being most frequent in northern Europeans and certain African
and Arabian nomadic tribes, who have a history of drinking fresh milk. Selection is likely to have played an
important role in establishing these different frequencies since the development of agricultural pastoralism ª9,000
years ago."

This is a map of the main groups with the capacity to drink raw milk when adults.
(Sorry, I cannot post it directly)
[URL=http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VNH-48WJWGF-8&_coverDate=09%2F30%2F2003&_alid=275843375&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_qd=1&_cdi=6179&_sort=d&view=c&_a cct=C]http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VNH-48WJWGF-8&_coverDate=09%2F30%2F2003&_alid=275843375&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_qd=1&_cdi=6179&_sort=d&view=c&_ acct=C[/URL] 000035158&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=651519&md5=0156d221fc58f756d0007346a4aa8d85

Note that several tribes of the Sudan/Eritrea coast in the Red Sea have this genetic trait in a high degree. Quite interesting for our debates on Beja and others people origin.

They share this trait with Arabs, Palestinians, Czechs (slavic), Spaniards and Irish. I'd like to know how can explain this distribution the advocates of race.
If they can, then another piece of information: there are only three groups with a high degree outside the Red Coast: the Tutsi, a group in northern Nigeria and another in Benin. Try now to apply "race" to explain that.

Others African groups have this trait in a lesser degree and that includes the pastoralist of the Sahel and East Africa not cited above. This means that they get on cattle herding much more recently.

The time of the domestication of cattle is usually accepted in 9-10.000 years. The place is disputed, but central Anatolia is a good bet.

[This message has been edited by jluis (edited 10 May 2005).]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought:

Thought Writes:

We have been over this many times. Use the search feature on Egyptsearch.com

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Your info is badly outdated:

[ [QUOTE]
The lactase-persistence phenotype is found at low frequencies in the majority of populations in sub-Saharan Africa that have been tested, but, in some populations, particularly pastoral groups, it is significantly more frequent. We typed this polymorphism in 1,671 individuals from 20 distinct cultural groups in seven African countries. It was possible to match seven of the groups tested with groups from the literature for whom phenotypic information is available. In five of these groups, the published frequencies of lactase persistence are >/=25%. We found the T allele to be so rare that [b]it cannot explain the frequency of the lactase-persistence phenotype throughout Africa. [/i]

The T allele of a single-nucleotide polymorphism 13.9 kb upstream of the lactase gene (LCT) (C-13.9kbT) does not predict or cause the lactase-persistence phenotype in Africans.

---

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 10 May 2005).][/B][/QUOTE]

Mi info is from March 2005. And it comes from a genetic journal, not from an interview with an historian. If the quote is about genetics, then the critics cannot be about pop culture. I promise not to answer you with a qoute from Elvis.

About the second quote, please note that your article deals with a single allele (T) and the ones I refer to (Hollox 2001, 2005) abot the whole world distribution of all the haplotypes. 4, according to the source.

???

Thought thinks so hard that sometimes forgets to write.

quote:

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Originally posted by jluis:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Thought2:

???

Thought thinks so hard that sometimes forgets to write.

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Thought Writes:

The point is we have spent WEEKS going over the very issues you raise AGAIN. I suggest that you use the search function, review what has allready been stated on this topic, then refute that evidence or raise some new angle. At this point you raise nothing new....

quote:

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Originally posted by jluis:

Mi info is from March 2005. And it comes from a genetic journal, not from an interview with an historian.

---

Yes but neither the geneticists nor the historians support your outdated ideas:

Most studies for practical reasons have focused on lactase persistence in Europe, but lactase persistence is also common in certain tribes in Africa that have a history of dairying. Is lactase persistence in these people caused by the same mutation - as would seem likely - and has it been under positive selection as well? The first part of this question has been answered by Mulcare et al.13 Their paper shows that the putative causative allele 14 kb upstream from the lactase gene is not at frequencies high enough for it to be the causative allele in Africa, even when the inherent errors in lactose tolerance testing are taken into account.

There could be two reasons for this - either the allele is not causative at all and is merely strongly associated with the causative allele, or in Africans lactase persistence is due to another mutation. The first reason is possible, especially given the high LD across the region - many polymorphisms within this region will be strongly associated with lactase persistence just by virtue of being on the same huge haplotype. But functional studies from two groups show that the putative causative allele is a gain-of-function mutation increasing the expression driven from the lactase promoter in reporter gene assays in a human intestinal cell line.14, 15 So what about the second reason - a different causative mutation in Africans? Intuitively, this seems unlikely, but given the powerful selective advantage of being lactase persistent any mutation is very unlikely to be lost by genetic drift. It is possible that another mutation in the same regulatory element, a different element, or even in a trans-acting transcription factor may be responsible for lactase persistence in Africans. The answer will only be found by further genetic analysis of this locus in Africans.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

The point is we have spent WEEKS going over the very issues you raise AGAIN. I suggest that you use the search function, review what has allready been stated on this topic, then refute that evidence or raise some new angle. At this point you raise nothing new....

---

Lol. But how often have we found that people 'don't want' information that conflicts with their preconceived notions?

Certainly they will not search for it.

Even providing hyper-links won't do.

quote:

---

Well, to start with the msg, I have to say that this kind of exchange is much more interesting and fruitful than the exchange of insults over long-time deceased racist theories. It is even better that the use of greco-roman quotations as flying weapons against the other.

About the case:

I am aware that modern W Africans did not originate in the forest belt but came from the North. I think nobody disputes this is linked to the final desertization of Sahra.

But I'd really like to know where is the maximum genetic diversity in Africa. Ausar's post seems to reflect the opinion that it was in the Sahel. Broadly speaking, somewhere between lake Chad and the Nile.

I do not agree and so present an alternative:

The most diverse point of Africa and so the point of origin of most of the current African people (and to anyone else, but OK. Let's focus in Africa) is East Africa. The line of mountains and lakes that cross E Africa from Ethiopia in the North to the Drakensbers in South Africa. This is the point or origin of most African. I refer here to the period of the last 20,000 years or so, not to the overall history of human kind.

From this mountain environment, people expand to the rest of Africa. The Great Lakes area and the Nile Basin is a clear gate for expansion and that explains the diversity we see now. But this diversity is secondary. The oldest diversity is somewhere in the Rift Valley or even further South.

Maybe the genetic experts in this forum can add some light to this contest: What is the oldest source of genetic diversity in Africa? Is it the Sahara "plains" of the East African "mountains"?

The people of the oasis of Sahara are not direct descendants of the people that lived there before the last dry-up, around 5,000 years ago. The original population was hunter-gatherer and so, very much mobile. They move as soon as saw the drought coming. Their descendant are now in W Africa, in N Africa (or maybe not, this is another interesting point of contest: did people from outside Africa re-colonised N Africa in the last few thousands years?) and, of course, in the Nile Valley. The current inhabitants of Sahara oasis are linked to neolitic expansion of cattle herders and maybe farmers.

Finally, I know where is the solution to this question: it is the Congo Basin. The day we can research the genetics and languages of the heart of Africa, now barred by war, we will have the answer.

Another interesting point for genetic research, now open to science, is the Zambeze and Limpopo rivers area. What about this? Anyone one have fresh info about human diversity south of the Equator?

---

Have you heard of the African Aquatic culture that was from the Sahelian zone down to the Khartoum Mesolithic? It appears the Sahara had both pastorial communities and settled communities that pratice agritculture.

The pastorial people within the Sahara were most likely related to the modern day Fulani because it was pointed out by the late Amadoua Hamparte Ba that many of the litorial traditions of the Saharan rock art matched the modern Fulani people.

I base this off other similarities between the Saharan rock art and motifs of Amun that resemble the following.

Not to mention early archaeological sites in Nabta Playa correlate very well with pastorial people moving into the Nile Valley. Are you familar with these connections,or Nabta Playa?

What about the ''black mummy'' they found in southern Libya that resembles the belief system of the ancient Egyptians?

quote:

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jluis:
Others African groups have this trait in a lesser degree and that includes the pastoralist of the Sahel and East Africa not cited above. This means that they get on cattle herding much more recently.

---

From the Hum Genet study Rasol posted earlier:

quote:

---

The ability to digest the milk sugar lactose as an adult (lactase persistence) is a variable genetic trait in human populations. The lactase-persistence phenotype is found at low frequencies in the majority of populations in sub-Saharan Africa that have been tested, but, in some populations, particularly pastoral groups, it is significantly more frequent.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

Alot of the bedouin tribes in parts of Egypt and Sudan adapted their culture of the local people,but kept the Arab idenity at the same same. The Nubians themselves became Arabized due to Arab intermarriaged in their family,and thus through this matrilineal decent the Nubians became more Arabized and the elite became more Arabic ethnically.

Similar things happened to the Beja people in Eastern Sudan.

Fundamentally, the Bedouins of the Western Desert are more culturally Egyptian than they think. The same goes with the Ababda bedouins around Aswan who are arabized Beja people. Still many of their local customs are like that of other Beja people.

Most Jaaliyin will say they are Arabs,but most people know they are just sedentary Nubians who took up the nomadic life of the Arabs.

---

i read on a website that most of the jaaliyin do not have any arab blood but became arabized by contact.

as you know there are the nubians and arabized nubians,the arabized nubians in the sudan and egypt are the largest in both states.in egypt most have some form of arab blood.In the sudan some do but most do not,but even some that are not arabized in the sudan have some form of arab blood.
i know that most or alot nubians in egypt have some form arab blood but i know many in the sudan that do not.

other arabized nubians in the sudan depending on the group have some to no arab blood but overall many do not.

let's not forget either that some nubians in egypt and more so in the sudan were not arabized and still speak or mostly nubian and more nubian in culture still than the arabized nubians.

for me anyway i think alot or most of the arabized nubians still call themselves nubians but certain census takers like to put them in the arab group just because they speak mostly arab.it is like saying that some nigerians,or a black britian is a englishman because they speak mostly english,and we know that is a lie.

TAKE alook at this website,it is old but good info.the numbers for this group should be higher now.

The Jaaliyin of Sudan

The Jaaliyin claim to be direct descendants of the prophet Mohammed, the founder of the Islamic faith. It seems more likely, however, that their original ancestors are the Nubians and that the Jaaliyin gradually adopted the Arab culture.

This group of two million people live in small villages and cities along the banks of the Nile River. The area is very hot and dry, with an average yearly rainfall of about three inches. In the summer, which lasts from April through November, daytime temperatures can reach as high as 120 or 130 degrees Fahrenheit.

The Jaaliyin are easily recognized by their facial scars, many of which are in the form of a T or H. The scars are a sign of tribal pride and are even more common on the women than on the men, for they are considered a sign of beauty. The Jaaliyin are a very close tribe and quickly identify with each other, coming to another’s aid in the event of trouble or during times of celebration.

Their Lifestyle

Some Jaaliyin still farm and raise livestock along the banks of the Nile River, but today they more commonly consist of the bulk of the Sudanese urban population, forming a large part of the merchant class. Although many have moved to cities, such as the Sudanese capital of Khartoum, they still maintain their tribal identity and solidarity. In some cities they live in quarters inhabited solely by Jaaliyin, and they oppose marriages to people outside their tribe. Famous for maintaining ties with their homeland, they keep in contact with their original home and return for frequent visits, especially for marriages, funerals and Muslim festivals.

The Jaaliyin men regularly practice polygyny, although, as declared by Muslim law, they never have more than four wives at one time. The man has complete authority over his wife (or wives) and children, and he arranges and controls the marriages of his sons and daughters.

Their Beliefs and Needs

Like so many other Sudanese people groups, the Jaaliyin follow the Islamic faith, and are generally very committed Sunni Muslims. Only a small percentage of the Jaaliyin have been exposed to the Gospel in a positive way. This has mainly been accomplished through penetrations by Sudanese believers into the Jaaliyin areas. Churches comprised of Southern Sudanese members and evangelistic outreaches led by national Christian groups have helped reach the Jaaliyin. They are a people who are critical in reaching the whole of Sudan, for they are the pulse of the cities and a key stone in breaking through the Islamic grip that holds the nation of Sudan.

click to see website and pictures.
http://www.sudan101.com/Jaaliyn.htm

to me even i think arabized nubians are less arabized in culture than the black arabs,so they as awhole would still be nubians,but this has to be clear up once and for all.i will contact a few scholars and see what they have to say because the internet is not giving more detail info that we need,this is when the books and talking to a few scholars come in.i will give there answers soon.

there is one thing for sure,i know the other arabized nubians call themsevles nubians despite being arabized to a certian extent but less so that the more truly brainwashed black arabs.

[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 10 May 2005).]

Have you heard of the African Aquatic culture that was from the Sahelian zone down to the Khartoum Mesolithic? It appears the Sahara had both pastorial communities and settled communities that pratice agritculture.

The pastorial people within the Sahara were most likely related to the modern day Fulani because it was pointed out by the late Amadoua Hamparte Ba that many of the litorial traditions of the Saharan rock art matched the modern Fulani people.

I base this off other similarities between the Saharan rock art and motifs of Amun that resemble the following.

Not to mention early archaeological sites in Nabta Playa correlate very well with pastorial people moving into the Nile Valley. Are you familar with these connections,or Nabta Playa?

What about the ''black mummy'' they found in southern Libya that resembles the belief system of the ancient Egyptians?

Starting by the end of the quote:

Scattered finds are not enough to base arguments on PHYSICAL variation. Belief systems and artistic similarities are cultural and can be easily transmitted from one group to another.

Think for instance in Islam and Cristianity. If we apply to them the same line of thinking you just apply above, we should reach the conclusion that black Africans are a mix of Arabic populations (muslims), southern europeans (cristianity: catholics) and northen europeans (reformed churcs). This is clearly not the case and so the argument should be dropped.

About the Fulani origins, it actually support my point that the current Sahara dwellers (scattered populations, by the way) are not the descendants of hunther-gatherers but recent colonizers of the area (recent here means after dry up). The real descendents of Sahara hunter-gatherers are in the W African forest belt and within the Bantu group. Other two groups of descendants of hunter-gatherers are the Berbers and finally, the Egyptians themselves.

Which leads me to the Aquatic culture. First to say that there are several aquatics cultures in the northern half of Africa. You mention one, the one linked to the Nile valley (Khartoum mesolitic and also further down). The Chad lake/Niger river complex is another, still active. The third one, less known is the Western Sahara Basin, now completedly dry but with signs of having been watered and populated in several moments of the recent past.

Well, the origin of the particular culture you mention is much probably upperstream, in the Lake Victoria and the string of lakes of East Africa, from Uganda to Malawi. This is the core of the distribution pattern of African peoples. The dry up of the Sahara is just a "local" event which drove some populations to the South, towards the forest belt. But the point Zero of human populations in Africa is the Great Lakes area.

To get a clearer view of the populations of Africa in general and of the Nile Valley in particular, you should look upstream, to the sources of Nile and the Great Lakes area.

There is no need to relay in isolated populations of the oasis around Egypt. Go to the hills of Kampala and look around: you will see the heart of Africa.

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Originally posted by rasol:
Jluis: You basically make a straw argument of Ausar's post. Very disappointing.

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Originally posted by Super car:
I think there are some people here, who fall into the trap of trying to separate East Africans from the rest of the continent, just as others attempt to separate Northern Africa from the rest of the continent. To exemplify this, we have:

This fails to take into account, the fact that Africans of the once fertile Sahara also found their way to the Nile Valley, in addition to those who directly came from east Africa.

The manner in which, "West Africans" in the aforementioned comment was followed by the word "Negroes", while the same was not applied to "East Africans", suggests that so-called “Negro” is somehow supposed to be limited to a ‘homogenous’ west Africa. What it actually means in the context provided in the quote, will perhaps be best explained by the author.

Wittingly or otherwise, people who speak of East Africans in the manner just exemplified, seem to be painting East Africans as some sort of a homogenous entity, just as they do, the so-called West Africans. There are both broad and narrow facial physiognomy in either side of the continent.

East Africans:

In Sudan alone...

Continued.

[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 07 May 2005).]

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Originally posted by Super car:
I think there are some people here, who fall into the trap of trying to separate East Africans from the rest of the continent, just as others attempt to separate Northern Africa from the rest of the continent. To exemplify this, we have:

This fails to take into account, the fact that Africans of the once fertile Sahara also found their way to the Nile Valley, in addition to those who directly came from east Africa.

The manner in which, "West Africans" in the aforementioned comment was followed by the word "Negroes", while the same was not applied to "East Africans", suggests that so-called “Negro” is somehow supposed to be limited to a ‘homogenous’ west Africa. What it actually means in the context provided in the quote, will perhaps be best explained by the author.

Wittingly or otherwise, people who speak of East Africans in the manner just exemplified, seem to be painting East Africans as some sort of a homogenous entity, just as they do, the so-called West Africans. There are both broad and narrow facial physiognomy in either side of the continent.

East Africans:

In Sudan alone...

Continued.

[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 07 May 2005).]

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Originally posted by jluis:
What is a "straw argument"?

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Originally posted by rasol:
Jluis: You basically make a straw argument of Ausar's post. Very disappointing.

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Originally posted by jluis:
You don't answer to any argument. Just keep on disrupting

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I see. So I gather you found the previous two replies to your 'genetic argument turned fiasco'...."disruptive"?

And that would explain your response, by way of deafening silence?

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Originally posted by rasol:
Yes but neither the geneticists nor the historians support your outdated ideas:

Most studies for practical reasons have focused on lactase persistence in Europe, but lactase persistence is also common in certain tribes in Africa that have a history of dairying. Is lactase persistence in these people caused by the same mutation - as would seem likely - and has it been under positive selection as well? The first part of this question has been answered by Mulcare et al.13 Their paper shows that the putative causative allele 14 kb upstream from the lactase gene is not at frequencies high enough for it to be the causative allele in Africa, even when the inherent errors in lactose tolerance testing are taken into account.

There could be two reasons for this - either the allele is not causative at all and is merely strongly associated with the causative allele, or in Africans lactase persistence is due to another mutation. The first reason is possible, especially given the high LD across the region - many polymorphisms within this region will be strongly associated with lactase persistence just by virtue of being on the same huge haplotype. But functional studies from two groups show that the putative causative allele is a gain-of-function mutation increasing the expression driven from the lactase promoter in reporter gene assays in a human intestinal cell line.14, 15 So what about the second reason - a different causative mutation in Africans? Intuitively, this seems unlikely, but given the powerful selective advantage of being lactase persistent any mutation is very unlikely to be lost by genetic drift. It is possible that another mutation in the same regulatory element, a different element, or even in a trans-acting transcription factor may be responsible for lactase persistence in Africans. The answer will only be found by further genetic analysis of this locus in Africans.

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Originally posted by Super car:
From the Hum Genet study Rasol posted earlier: The ability to digest the milk sugar lactose as an adult (lactase persistence) is a variable genetic trait in human populations. The lactase-persistence phenotype is found at low frequencies in the majority of populations in sub-Saharan Africa that have been tested, but, in some populations, particularly pastoral groups, it is significantly more frequent.

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We are trying to be patient with you JL, but you have yet to make any point.

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Mali, Nobody has claimed that Africa is the cradle of civilization. Many believe that it the source of human emergence but even that is open to some question and speculation. Humanity was around for thousands of years before any civillizations appeared.

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Originally posted by relaxx:
Yes except the nehanderthals like you

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