quote:

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Originally posted by Super car:
How about because of the fact that Egypt is located on the eastern side of Africa?

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quote:

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Originally posted by relaxx:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Super car:
[b]How about because of the fact that Egypt is located on the eastern side of Africa?

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[/B][/QUOTE]

I would be darker or as equally dark as the man holding the lights.

Still for me those women painted in the gallery would be considered almost white for me and the men tanned.

Mubarak of Egypt would be considered by me as an Egyptian more than I am who is almost dark brown, because I have West African blood, while he is more Egyptian.

Relaxx, there are rural Egyptians in parts of Upper Egypt that have a very similar phenotype to eastern Africans.

Amr, most people living from Luxor-Aswan are mostly dark brown in apperance. The man is the same color as his ancient Egyptian ancestors. Hosni Mubarak looks nothing like any ancient Egyptian tomb relief. Do you not realize he is from a wealthy family from the eastern Delta that have centuries of intermingling with bedouin Arabs?

The females painted light yellowish color is symoblic and not realistic. You don't seem to understand this.

Second, you call the man in the painting "tan"?!! LOL There is no such thing as a tan that dark!

Here are more close up pics of Sennefer:

Do you really call this "tan"?!

Why Tut's Brown coloured statues are not symbolic?

If the woman is that light than why the man from the same race painted with a darker colour, to show that men work in the field and therefore darker skin.

Amr, most people in modern Egypt have a light to dark brown complexion. No matter if they work in the field or stay inside. Females worked right alongside their husbands in the field. In later times you see that both females and males were both painted reddish-brown. This was only a convention of symbolism used in ancient Egyptian artwork. Colors are not always meant to be taken literal.

I supplied a reference earlier,and I will supply it again from an Egyptologist named Gay Robbins:

[......Thus,the gender distinctionencoded for human figures was
transferred at times to the divie world. The symbolisminherant in the
skin colors used for some deities and royal figures sugest that the
colors given to human skin---although initiallyseeming to be
naturalistic -----might also be symbolic. Male and female skin colors
were probabaly not uniform among the entire population of Egypt,with
pigmentation being darker in the south[closer to sub-sahara Africans]
and lighter in the north[closer to Mediterranean Near Easteners] A
woman from the south would probabaly have had darker skin than a man
from the North. Thus,the colorations used for skin tones in the art
must have been schematic [or symbolic] rather than realistic;the
clear gender distinction encoded in that scheme may have been based
on elite ideals relating to male and female roles,in which women's
responsibilities kept them indoors,so that they spent less time in
the sun than men.Nevertheless, the signifcance of the two colors may
be even deeper,making some as yet unknown but fundamental difference
between men and women in Egyptian worldview............]

The Ancient God Speak by Donald Redford

A Guide to Egyptian Religion

Page 57-61 Color Symbolism

Gay Robins

I repeat, there is no way color could be that different between men and women!!

LMFO Are you saying that the woman is that light because she stayed indoors, and if so, if she were to stay outdoors all of a sudden she would become as dark as the man?!!

quote:

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Originally posted by AMR1:
http://www.kodakgallery.com/CartFrameBrowse.jsp?&photoid=58559401603.26920 190703&category=3300337403

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was any one able to see this picture?

She is royalty also, so she would spend most of her time indoors!

What do you make of her?!

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:

Notice both male and female are depicted in the same shade:

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LOL Actually Ausar, if you look closely, the woman is really depicted darker than the man! The child too!

Knowing AMR, the logic for those women being painted in dark brown, is that, they've been sun baked as much as their male counterparts. How about the occasional blue coloration; should we then conclude, that the subject depicted, was actually blue? LMAO.

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
OK so what about this woman, who was not painted symbolically?

She is royalty also, so she would spend most of her time indoors!

[This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 02 June 2005).]

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this is her colour also. But I agree some colours are drawn symbolically like the pitch black or green but not the above colours, neither the dark or yellowish colours are symbolic, but in fact their colour.

Skin Color

Many people wonder what the ancient Egyptians actually looked like. This is difficult to answer because of the time that has elapsed and the fact that all surviving images are works of art, not documentary representations.

It is safe to say that among the large family of African nations, the Egyptians' physical appearance evolved in the particular conditions of the Nile Valley. Skin tones were most probably darker in the south than in the north, and overall darker than in the rest of the Mediterranean basin. Otherwise, the works of art indicate that the Egyptian population was "variety itself."*

* As stated by Gamal Mokhtar in General History of Africa II: Ancient Civilizations, UNESCO International Scientific Committee for the Drafting of a General History of Africa (Berkeley, 1981), p. 15

http://www.metmuseum.org/explore/newegypt/htm/pe_like.htm

Djehuti, here is the source I am reffering to from Gay Robbins. She considers the Yellowish color for women and the reddish brown just to be conventional for males but not represenative of the population as a whole:

[......Thus,the gender distinctionencoded for human figures was
transferred at times to the divie world. The symbolisminherant in the
skin colors used for some deities and royal figures sugest that the
colors given to human skin---although initiallyseeming to be
naturalistic -----might also be symbolic. Male and female skin colors
were probabaly not uniform among the entire population of Egypt,with
pigmentation being darker in the south[closer to sub-sahara Africans]
and lighter in the north[closer to Mediterranean Near Easteners] A
woman from the south would probabaly have had darker skin than a man
from the North. Thus,the colorations used for skin tones in the art
must have been schematic [or symbolic] rather than realistic;the
clear gender distinction encoded in that scheme may have been based
on elite ideals relating to male and female roles,in which women's
responsibilities kept them indoors,so that they spent less time in
the sun than men.Nevertheless, the signifcance of the two colors may
be even deeper,making some as yet unknown but fundamental difference
between men and women in Egyptian worldview............]

The Ancient God Speak by Donald Redford

A Guide to Egyptian Religion

Page 57-61 Color Symbolism

Gay Robins

quote:

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Thus,the colorations used for skin tones in the art
must have been schematic [or symbolic] rather than realistic

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Thankyou!

let's see if AMR can com-pre-hend!

Does this mean that Nubian women are that light skinned?

Who in here has a pic of this to post?

I have a picture of a Meroitic tomb in Northern Sudan that shows women yellowish color. Unfortunately, I have no scanner to scan this picture. Also Nubians are often painted in the same reddish-brown as Egyptian males.

In regard to your question, Egypt is an East African country as well as North African. So it is important to make relation to its neighbours.

I have tried above to give a link to show you my black face if you are an american or my brown face if you are an african, but I failed as I am not a computer savy person.

No one who checked the dna skeleton skull of current population of Egypt has found any one else but the current population there that are the sole decendants of ancient Egypt.

Ancient Egypt never died away, or left their country. They were great people and smart people and were able to absorb foreigners and survive. You hate to see that their decendants have been whitened by 3500 year of mainly hyksos, Greek and Turkish migration, that is your problem.

Every one here read those studies so no one but the people of todays Egypt who have legitimacy to inherit the legacy of AE, but those current population, that you hate so much. No one, no scientist is able to say with certainty that the Sadats of Egypt have more blood of ancient Egypt than the Mubaraks of Egypt.

But we know that those 75 million of that great country are today with varying degrees are the decendants of AE, WHETHER AE WAS A KABILA BLACK, BROWN OR RED BROWN OR GREEN POPULATION 7000 YEARS AGO.

Let us say they lied since they are European researchers, still all reports show and lead that current population is the decendants of ancient Egypt and have been whitened mainly by hyksos, Greeks and Turks. 3500 years of foreigners coming and settling and intermarrying with Egyptians, will not change the brown skin Egyptians, it would have changed drastically the jet black Southern Sudanese.

What else do you need?

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:
Amr, there has not been many anthropological studies on ancient Egyptian remains compaired to modern Egyptians. Very few studies have been done on the remains of the ancient Egyptians,and the remains that really matter are the pre-dyanstic ones. The importance is the proto-dyanstic Egyptians leading up to the formation of ancient Egypt. All we have is a sickel and a shovel. New discoveries in Egyptian pre-history are being discovered each day in Egypt. Who knows what many archaeologies will turn up next.

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quote:

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Originally posted by AMR1:
There was a study on skeletons as old as 9500 years old, that show that current population is the same as the one today, not only they are their decendants and have mixed with others, like I said above.

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quote:

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Originally posted by AMR1:
I can not find it right now, unfortunately. But I will try to find it and post it soon.

Regards,

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quote:

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Originally posted by AMR1:
I can not find it right now, unfortunately. But I will try to find it and post it soon.

Regards,

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Again, allow us to help you:

Archaeological excavation of sites on the Nile above Aswan has confirmed human habitation in the river valley during the Paleolithic period that spanned more than 60,000 years of Sudanese history. By the eighth millennium B.C., people of a Neolithic culture had settled into a sedentary way of life there in fortified mud-brick villages, where they supplemented hunting and fishing on the Nile with grain gathering and cattle herding. Contact with Egypt probably occurred at a formative stage in the culture's development because of the steady movement of population along the Nile River. Skeletal remains suggest a blending of negroid and Mediterranean populations during the Neolithic period (eighth to third millenia B.C.) that has remained relatively stable until the present, despite gradual infiltration by other elements.

Data as of June 1991

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There was a study on skeletons as old as 9500 years old, that show that current population is the same as the one today, not only they are their decendants and have mixed with others, like I said above.

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I realize that studies have been done on skeletal remains from 10,000 years ago,but what is relevent are the pre-dyanstic Egyptian remains in Upper and Lower Egypt.

10,000 years is before the formation of dyanstic Egypt which occured approximately around 3100 B.C. with the unification of Upper and Lower Egypt.

quote:

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Let us say they lied since they are European researchers, still all reports show and lead that current population is the decendants of ancient Egypt and have been whitened mainly by hyksos, Greeks and Turks. 3500 years of foreigners coming and settling and intermarrying with Egyptians, will not change the brown skin Egyptians, it would have changed drastically the jet black Southern Sudanese.

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The ethnicity of the person who does the reserch is a non-sequitir. Wheather the reserch is relevent and reliable or peer-reviewed is another.

Do you know the process of peer-review that is used in the scientific community.

Its doubtful you can tell skin color from ancient remains,but you can tell biological and physical affinities of the population by remains found in pre-dyanstic graves in Egypt.

quote:

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Originally posted by AMR1:
[B]Tombs in the north at Meroe of kings who ruled ca. 300-200 B.C. Temple of Naqa, southwest of Meroe
Courtesy Robert O. Collins

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Has Collins actually conducted an anthropological study of pre-dynastic Nile Valley remains, or is he simply making ad-hoc comments? What is Collins definition of "Mediterranean influence" in Neolithic Sudan? What population or remains can he specifically site, beyound vague generalisation?

If he has done peer reviewed work on Nile Valley remains can you provide a reference to it?

Shomarka Keita has done such work and published his findings in peer review journals:

None of Keita's work suggests the penetration of West Asian or European types being a factor in the creation of Dynastic Egypt.

Both Keita (1993) and Hassan (1988) have suggested that Saharan elements played a role in the modification of Badari and early Nakada types during the late Nakada period. http://asiapacificuniverse.com/pkm/anthro.htm

Who are these Saharan types?

According to Keita (1990) and Livingstone (1967), the Haratin are among the major descendants of the original Saharans. Close similarity in ABO serology between modern Haratin populations and those of ancient Egyptian

Are these Collins..."Mediterraneans" ? ?

quote:

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Originally posted by AMR1:
Tombs in the north at Meroe of kings who ruled ca. 300-200 B.C. Temple of Naqa, southwest of Meroe
Courtesy Robert O. Collins

Archaeological excavation of sites on the Nile above Aswan has confirmed human habitation in the river valley during the Paleolithic period that spanned more than 60,000 years of Sudanese history. By the eighth millennium B.C., people of a Neolithic culture had settled into a sedentary way of life there in fortified mud-brick villages, where they supplemented hunting and fishing on the Nile with grain gathering and cattle herding. Contact with Egypt probably occurred at a formative stage in the culture's development because of the steady movement of population along the Nile River. Skeletal remains suggest a blending of negroid and Mediterranean populations during the Neolithic period (eighth to third millenia B.C.) that has remained relatively stable until the present, despite gradual infiltration by other elements.

Data as of June 1991

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Skeletons from which periods, and from which regions? Mr. Collins doesn't provide any information on these.

But here, we have:

"...A phenetic craniometric analysis of early farmers from the Nile Valley in Upper Egypt in order to explore this hypothesis. Badarian crania were studied with European and African series from the Howells' database, using generalized differences and cluster analysis(neighboring joining and UPGMA algorithms). Greater affinity is found with the African series. The results are considered with a variety of linguistic and archaeological evidence, as well as the findings of simulation studies relevant to this study. It concluded that the earliest Nile Valley farmers in Upper Egypt for which there is record were locals, not European immigrants and therefore the development of agriculture in this region was not due to demic diffusion ultimately from Europe... " - S.O.Y Keita and A.J. Boyce, 2002.

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Intra-population and temporal variation in ancient Egyptian crania.

S.R. Zakrzewski. Department of Archaeology, University of Southampton, UK. April, 2004.

The level of morphological variation within a population is the result of factors such as population expansion and movement. Traditionally Egyptologists have considered ancient Egypt to have a homogeneous population, with state formation occurring as a result of local processes without influence from migration. This paper tests this hypothesis by investigating the extent of biological relationships within a series of temporally successive Egyptian skeletal samples. Previous studies have compared biological relationships between Egyptians and other populations, mostly using the Howells global cranial data set. In the current study, by contrast, the biological relationships within a series of temporally-successive cranial samples are assessed.

The data consist of 55 cranio-facial variables from 418 adult Egyptian individuals, from six periods, ranging in date from c. 5000 to 1200 BC. These were compared with the 111 Late Period crania (c. 600-350 BC) from the Howells sample. Principal Component and Canonical Discriminant Function Analyses were undertaken, on both pooled and single sex samples.

The results suggest a level of local population continuity exists within the earlier Egyptian populations, but that this was in association with some change in population structure, reflecting **small-scale** immigration and admixture with new groups. Most dramatically, the results also indicate that the Egyptian series from Howells global data set are morphologically distinct from the Predynastic and Early Dynastic Nile Valley samples (especially in cranial vault shape and height), and thus show that this sample cannot be considered to be a typical Egyptian series.

This research was funded by the Wellcome Trust (Bioarchaeology Panel), Durham University (Addison-Wheeler Fellowship) and by University of Southampton."

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Mesolithic Nubians had low, sloping foreheads and robust features evolving into a globular cranium with high vault. The prominence of the orbital region was reduced by the Christian era and the occipital bun much less prominent. Flattening of the lambdoid and sagittal regions also became less pronounced. (Forensic analysis of the skull : craniofacial analysis, reconstruction, and identification. [editors Mehmet Yasar Iscan and Richard P. Helmer]. (New York, N.Y.: Wiley-Liss, 1993)

The male cranium above is from Wadi al-Halfa on the Sudan-Egypt border. Dating from the Mesolithic-Holocene period, it is typical of crania in Sudan and surrounding regions from that time frame. More recent Nubian crania from the Christian period have more rounded skulls without the sloping frontal bone. However, the vertical zygomatic arch, prominent glabella, sagittal plateau, and occipital bun (less pronounced) are retained. The cranium above has pronounced facial prognathism, but moderate dental protrusion. The chin is vertical with a angular mandible and very squat ramus. (Image from David Lee Greene and George Armelagos. The Wadi Halfa mesolithic population. (Amherst: University of Massachusetts, 1972)
http://www.geocities.com/pinatubo.geo/data7.htm

See the above link, for details on skeletal affinities.

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"Against this background of disease, movement and pedomorphic reduction of body size one can identify Negroid (Ethiopic or Bushmanoid?) traits of nose and prognathism appearing in Natufian latest hunters (McCown, 1939) and in Anatolian and Macedonian first farmers, probably from Nubia via the unknown predecesors of the Badarians and Tasians - Angel.

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"Early southern predynastic Egyptian crania show tropical African affinities, displaying craniometric trends that differ notably from the coastal northern African pattern. The various craniofacial patterns discernible in northern Africa are attributable to the agents of microevolution and migration." - Keita.

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ANTHROPOLOGIE

Volume 42/3, 2004, pp. 215-225

VAN PEER P.
Did Middle Stone Age Moderns of Sub-Saharan African Descent Trigger an Upper Paleolithic Revolution in the Lower Nile Valley?

ABSTRACT:

In this paper, the Middle Paleolithic and the transition to the Upper Paleolithic in the Lower Nile Valley are described. It is argued that the Middle Paleolithic or, more appropriately, Middle Stone Age of this region starts with the arrival of new populations from sub-Saharan Africa, as evidenced by the nature of the Early to Middle Stone Age transition in stratified sites. Throughout the late Middle Pleistocene technological change occurs leading to the establishment of the Nubian Complex by the onset of the Upper Pleistocene. After a period of significant population expansion during the Last Interglacial, the arid conditions of Stage 4 have forced technological adaptation and contraction of population groups into the Nile Valley. In this context, the initial Upper Paleolithic emerges. The paper ends with an interpretation of the causes of the transition and of the impact of this event in adjacent regions.

Amr, you should always cite yur reference:
http://workmall.com/wfb2001/sudan/sudan_history_early_history.html

Even this website got it from the Library of COngress for Sudan.

Robert O. Collins is a historian and not a physical or biological anthropologist.

Also, I have to note that this symbolic convention of depicting women has also led to wholesale defacement of Egyptian monuments, supposedly according to these "Style" conventions. Look at these pages on Nefertari. All of the depictions of nefertari show a pink skinned woman. Something rarely if ever done in Egyptian art. However, archaeologists would like you to believe that she actually looked like this and that these colors are accurate. Actually they are not. The color pink was the color used by the RESTORERS OF HER TOMB FROM ITALY. The original colors of Nefertari were BROWN. I wish I had some of the before restoration photos of the tomb to show this in more detail. However the last link below will show the before and after photo of one image that is clearly DIFFERENT. Yet they want to make light PINK the same as BROWN. Note too that they even covered up the serpent from the royal headdress that should be rising above her ear.

I am surprised so many people who are looking for evidence of the WHITEWASHING of Egyptian history have not even seemed to notice this.
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/ramesses2squeens.htm
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/ramesses2familygirls.htm

(Scroll down and notice the BIG DIFFERENCE between the before and after colors) http://www.touregypt.net/historicalessays/nefertari.htm

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:
Women were painted yellow because they were associated with the SUN. .

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quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:

Amr, you should always cite yur reference:
http://workmall.com/wfb2001/sudan/sudan_history_early_history.html

Even this website got it from the Library of COngress for Sudan.

Robert O. Collins is a historian and not a physical or biological anthropologist.

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He say things with proof unlike some ones here,who claim President Mubarak is not decendants of AE WHILE he is not arab. He is an arabized Egyptian mixed with greeks and Turks. Every one wanted to be an arab while has not one ounce of arab blood, THAT NEED TO BE AN ARAB WAS few centuries ago.

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You are drifting off the topic. Robert O. Collins is just a historian and not a physical/biological anthropologist.

Professor Robert O. Collins (1933-)

Professor Robert O. Collins is recognised as the leading historian of the southern Sudan and as an authority on African history. In a career spanning more than forty years, he published 25 book on a broad range of subjects, and written close to 80 articles and essays. His most important monographs are:

* The Southern Sudan 1883-1898: A Struggle for Control (Yale, 1962)
* Land Beyond the Rivers: The Southern Sudan, 1898-1918 (Yale, 1971)
* Shadows in the Grass: Britain in the Southern Sudan, 1918-1956 (Yale, 1983)
* The Waters of the Nile: Hydropolitics and the Jonglei Canal, 1900-1988 (Clarendon, 1990).
* Requiem for the Sudan: War, Drought and Disaster Relief, 1983-1993 (with Millard Burr; Westview, 1994).
* Africa's Thirty Years' War: Chad, Libya, and the Sudan, 1963-1993 (Westview, 1999)

Many students in American universities have acquired their first taste for African studies through his Problems books. Shadows in the Grass won the John Ben Snow Prize for the best book in British Studies in 1983.

Professor Collins received his PhD from Yale University. His teaching career began at Williams College, next spent a brief period at Colombia University before he in 1965 joined the History Department of University of California, Santa Barbara. He became full professor in 1969 and retired in 1994, becoming Professor Emeritus. At UCSB he held a number of position and most importantly was Dean of the Graduate Division for ten years, from 1970 to 1980. He trained thirteen Ph.D. candidates from the US and the Sudan, and also supervised students who came to Santa Barbara for shorter periods. His last appointment before retirement was Director of the University of California's centre in Washington DC. In retirement, Professor Collins has taught under-graduate classes on a part-time basis and continues to write.

In addition to his university duties, Professor Collins was on the editorial board of The International Journal of African Historical Studies and The Journal of African Studies, and has been adviser to the US government, the Sudanese government, and Chevron Petroleum.

In appreciation of his varied contribution to Sudanese studies, Professor Collins received the Order of Sciences from the Democratic Republic of the Sudan (1980). He has at various times held fellowships at the Woodrow Wilson Institute (Washington DC), St. Antony's College (Oxford), Balliol College (Oxford), and Durham University.

Professor Collins has throughout his career been an avid collectors of books, pamphlets and other sources that shed light on the history of the southern Sudan and neighbouring areas. Scholars and students with research interests in "the South" have, recognising the value of his unique private collection, travelled to Santa Barbara to browse the crammed office shelves or shift through the many boxes. Facing retirement, in the early 1990s he decided that rather than passing everything on to UCSB's library, he would prefer to donate the books to universities with strong commitments to Sudanese studies. Durham University, with its famed Sudan Archive, and the University of Bergen, where Sudanese studies has been a flagship since the early 1970s, were the obvious choices, and basically the private collection was divided between the two institutions.

es, 07.00

http://www.hf.uib.no/smi/bib/Collins-bio.html

Many modern Egyptians do have Arabic ancestry. Did you know that Arabs began to migrate into Egypt even before the Arabic invasion in 640 AD? Infact, a Syrian based Arabian kingdom ruled by Queen Zenobia controlled parts of Upper Egypt untill the Romans overthrew them.

Semetic speaking people were well documented in the Delta region of Egypt going back to Ptolemaic and Roman periods in Egypt.

Amr, I ask you to please read history during the Medieval period in Egypt. You will discover that many of the early Caliphs under the Umayyad and later Fatimids settled Arabs in various parts of the Delta and some parts of Middle Egypt. This is documented by Ibn Khaldun,al-Maqrizi,and al-Kindi. All of these individuals wrote histories about Egypt from the invasion of Amr Ibn Alas to the 14th century.

quote:

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Originally posted by relaxx:
Why Arab Egyptians lump themselves among Eastern Africans? I've been reading some threads and unlike other Arabs they feel the need to cozy up with people from Eastern Africa, real Arabs really don’t care about Eastern Africa, is it a subtle way to claim Ancient Egypt as theirs since many painting show people who look like Ethiopians, Somalis, Tutsis...but unfortunately I don't think Eastern Africans feel that way...Fareed, Salama, AMR1, I hope you realize that Eastern Africa view you: people from the Delta Region...Turks and all of your Eurasians pals as Arabs. Arabs, Greek, Turks,Europeans, Armenians don't look like Eastern Africans, you know that...If you don't agree, prove me that your physical features are the same as Eastern Africans...Please leave Eastern Africa alone.
Relaxx

[This message has been edited by relaxx (edited 02 June 2005).]

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quote:

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Originally posted by multisphinx:
LISTEN Relaxx my mom side if from a village in the delta region. They are not white. Her brothers have kinky hair, they are dark brown, some even are light brown. They are mistaken for east Africans, and somalian by many somalies. Felahien in the delta are not all from foriegn stock like ppl from some ppl from ciaro and alex. U will find villiges in the delta the are simular to upper Egypt, u have my word on that.

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I agree. Lower Egypt is very diverse. I've even seen Copts from Cairo who look Ethiopian.