Northern Sudanese are not that mixed with Egyptians. Some of the Egyptian soliders stationed during the Anglo-Egyptian occupation married Sudanese but not as many as you exaggerate.
Most of the foreign admixture in northern Sudan comes from bedouin that wandered from Egypt or from the Red Sea area. Areas like Qift[Geb-ti] along the Red Sea probably abosrbed some of this admixture also.
There were many tribes who came from egypt in the 9th century to 15 cebntury who claim to be arabs, and settled in teh Sudan.
I am not just talking about the period of 1820-1956.
Also remember Egypt ruled Nubia between 2000b.c.-1150b.c. At a period many migrants from mesoptamia moved and lived in Egypt.
I don't know what Tut-ankh-amun's color was. His mother was Kiya and father was Akenaten. Akenaten may or may not have had Marfan syndrone which disfigured him.
the 17th and 18th dyansties originated in deep southern Upper Egypt so I would assume most of these pharaohs were dark-brown in color much like people who lived there today.
I can tell you from the mummies examined according to James E Harris and Weeks they are very close to modern Nubians living in the Wadi Halfa area. I can direct you towards the examination of the mummies if you wish.
check out the book X-raying the Pharaohs by James E Harris and Kent R Weeks also X-Ray Atlas of Egyptian Mummies by the same authors mentioned.
[This message has been edited by ausar (edited 14 July 2005).]
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Northern Sudanese are not that mixed with Egyptians. Some of the Egyptian soliders stationed during the Anglo-Egyptian occupation married Sudanese but not as many as you exaggerate.
Most of the foreign admixture in northern Sudan comes from bedouin that wandered from Egypt or from the Red Sea area. Areas like Qift[Geb-ti] along the Red Sea probably abosrbed some of this admixture also.
Egyptians from that period 1820-1956 are minimum 400 thousand, some say they are 2 million, no one knows for sure.
I belong to that group, of course we are no longer pure Egyptians we have married into Nubians north sudanese in the last 150 years.
quote:Originally posted by AMR1: Egyptians before they were defeated by the first invaders 3500 years ago. Egypt was already a land where people migrated for slavation for a 1000 years and had mixed thoroughly with Egyptians.
Again with this invader and migration nonsense!
First you said foreigners came to Egypt and mixed with native Africans 10,000 years ago, now you're saying 3,500!
But where is the proof of either??!!
Why do you keep talking of migrations occuring in predynastic times when there is no evidence of any??!
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Amr, most people in Esna are dark-brown color. Don't pick and chose people from Esna because I know personally what people from this governate look like. There are some light people but never white skinned people around this area.
Also I explained to you about the Tut-ankh-amun reconstruction that skin color cannot be determined from forensic scientist. Neither can other factors like nose shape or ear size. You don't seem to comprehend this. This is not bias but scientific facts.
Honestly, even when many Egyptian Muslims migrate to America they often take the Arab label with them. No Egyptian muslim[with the exception of the fellahin] ever cared about ancient Egypt.
I honestly believe that many Egyptians living in Middle Egypt had Arab origins. I know because the Mamelukes took many bedouin tribes from further north and places them around these areas. These bedouin tribes are well documented.
So far the moderator, Ausar, is the only one making sense of all this nonsense!
The rest of you need to pay attention!!
[This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 14 July 2005).]
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:There were many tribes who came from egypt in the 9th century to 15 cebntury who claim to be arabs, and settled in teh Sudan.
They were Arab tribes. During the Umayyad and Abbasid many Arab tribes coming mostly from northern Arabia were invited to settled in the Delta and Middle Egypt. This was a common policy to Arabize non-Arabic speaking populations like Egyptians. Arabs were not permitted to own land under caliph Umar but soon this changed as many were settled as farmers in certain areas of the Delta and Middle Egypt.
After the Umayyad around the time of the Abbasid under caliph Mamun he replaced the Arab soliders with Turkish soliders and began to strike the Arabs of their pension. Thus this made many Arabs either settle down with Egyptians or move further southward into the Sudan. The first people the Arabs intermingled with in the Sudan were Beja nomads.
The Fatimids then invited the Bani Sulaim and Bani Hilal into Egypt allowing them to settle in middle Egypt. However, to punish the Berbers in the Magreb they also pushed many Bani Hilal into modern day Libya. Around the same time Arab tribes were settled in the Aswan area.
You know the area around the Red Sea area of Sudan was an easy acess point for Arabs. Many Arabs were settled just south of the first catract around the mines. Both Beja and Arabs worked in the mines around this time period.
I recommend two books about the Arabs in the Sudan and that is The Arabs in the Sudan by Macmichael. Also check out The Sudan and the Arabs by Yusuf Fadl Hassan.
quote:Also remember Egypt ruled Nubia between 2000b.c.-1150b.c. At a period many migrants from mesoptamia moved and lived in Egypt.
What you don't understand about Egyptian rulership was that it was mostly left in the order of the Egyptianized Nubians. Most were ethnic Nubians except the King's Son of Kush who was an Egyptican offical who watched over tribute. Some areas past the fourth cataract was never colonized by the Egyptians.
During the Middle Kingdom the Egyptians did set up fortresses around the third cataract. However, none of these fortresses contained very many Egyptians in them.
Remeber also that during the 6th dyansty many Nubian mercenaries settled all over Egypt. Even in parts of Middle Egypt and the Delta. The same goes with other foreign mercenaries.
Four books I recommend you to read are:
W.Y. Adams Nubia:Corridor to Africa
Bruce Trigger Nubia under the Pharaohs
Robert Morkot The Black Pharaohs
David O'Connor Ancient Nubia:Egypt's Rival in Africa
This deals with the time period you are speaking of.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:America is different from Egypt. People conquered America.
Egyptians before they were defeated by the first invaders 3500 years ago. Egypt was already a land where people migrated for slavation for a 1000 years and had mixed thoroughly with Egyptians.
The first invaders into a unified Egypt were the Hykos. Some argue wheather this was by force or peaceful infiltration into the Delta.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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I don't know what Tut-ankh-amun's color was. His mother was Kiya and father was Akenaten. Akenaten may or may not have had Marfan syndrone which disfigured him.
the 17th and 18th dyansties originated in deep southern Upper Egypt so I would assume most of these pharaohs were dark-brown in color much like people who lived there today.
I can tell you from the mummies examined according to James E Harris and Weeks they are very close to modern Nubians living in the Wadi Halfa area. I can direct you towards the examination of the mummies if you wish.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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I don't know what Tut-ankh-amun's color was. His mother was Kiya and father was Akenaten. Akenaten may or may not have had Marfan syndrone which disfigured him.
the 17th and 18th dyansties originated in deep southern Upper Egypt so I would assume most of these pharaohs were dark-brown in color much like people who lived there today.
I can tell you from the mummies examined according to James E Harris and Weeks they are very close to modern Nubians living in the Wadi Halfa area. I can direct you towards the examination of the mummies if you wish.
Yes and we have very good clues to what Tut's color was:
The brown color of pure indigenous Northeast Africans!
Not like that ridiculous latest of 6 or 7 reconstructions!!
[This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 14 July 2005).]
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Unfortunately, the average laymen puts his trust in reconstructions %100 percent because of scientific ignorance. Listen even if the reconstructions came out looking like a modern Luxor Egyptian or a Nubian in the Sudan I would still not trust Forensic reconstructions.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: Unfortunately, the average laymen puts his trust in reconstructions %100 percent because of scientific ignorance. Listen even if the reconstructions came out looking like a modern Luxor Egyptian or a Nubian in the Sudan I would still not trust Forensic reconstructions.
Unfortunately Ausar, all these fools are scientifically ignorant!!!
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Yes and we have very good clues to what Tut's color was:
The brown color of pure indigenous Northeast Africans!
Not like that ridiculous latest of 6 or 7 reconstructions!!
[This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 14 July 2005).]
Those features are not pure African.
Even the Bushmen who are brown in South Africa, have negroic features.
Ancien Egypt was always a mixed race nation since it started it 7000 years ago.
By the way the man I showed his picture as similair to Tut, is actually darker than Tut, but has soft hair, not kinky hair, like many ancient egyptains.
posted
Egypt is diverse, i say that in about everyone of my posts. Why? because it is. Its no different from the diversity you find in Brazil, DR,PR, Cuba.
If any person were to go to egypt, and travel around,(not just ciaro) all over egypt from villiges to the large cities. You will notice the diversity of the ppl. Modern Egypt is an African country. With a spectrum of diversity along the nile. Ppl come in all phenotyptes. Many egyptians look mallauto to me. Many ppl on this bored got to understand this.
Fareed egyptians are not caucasian ppl, you have no right to say that its a ridiculous statment. If you want to define your self like that go ahead, but dont define the rest of the ppl.
Ali being light skinned does not mean anything. You can be light skinned and still be mixed or malautto, not saying that you are or anything. The thing is majority of upper egypt look no different from east africans. As it is for the delta majority of the delta look simular to med./middleeastern countries.
One thing i also would like to add is that the delta is also diverse, not all the ppl are med, lookin many are maulauto especially from fellahien villiges.
quote:Originally posted by AMR1: Those features are not pure African.
Amnesiac, we have explained to you like thousands of times that such features ARE pure African. There are peoples in East, Central and even West Africa that have the same features and are not 'mixed' at all!! How many times do we have to repeat ourselves??!
quote:Even the Bushmen who are brown in South Africa, have negroic features.
Actually many Bushmen are yellowish-brown and they also have other features like slanted-eyes, all of which could be considered 'Asian' features but they are pure Africa!!
quote:Ancient Egypt was always a mixed race nation since it started it 7000 years ago.
First you said 10,000 years ago, then 3,500 years ago, now 7,000 years ago. LOL the date of your "mixed" fantasy keeps changing!
But where is the proof that it happened??
REGARDS!
[This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 14 July 2005).]
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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The suggestion that the peoples of Lower Egypt were Semitic migrants seems to be only speculation.
Archaelogy in the Delta is scanty but here is what we do know:
The Delta was formed only 6,500 BC (8,500 years ago), before that Lower Egypt was uninhabited marshland.
The earliest culture found in the Delta is the Merimde Beni-Salama cuture.
Merimde Beni-Salama The site found at Merimde Beni-Salam is the earliest know settlement in Lower Egypt. It was occupied during the predynastic period. Found by German archaeologist, Herman Junker in 1928. It was excavated through 1939. Through carbon dating, the site was discovered to have been occupied between 4880 BC and 4250 BC. Unfortunately, most of Junker?s notes were destroyed in World War II. Eiwanger has conducted more recent studies.
The site found 50km northwest of Cairo, was thought by Junker to be about 160,000sq. m. The site is naturally raised above the level of a flood. The mound of Merimde covers 44 acres. The settlement had been constructed on a natural rise above the inundation, and gradually rose as the town was built upon it?s own debris. It is believed that there were about 5000 occupants at one time at this site. Because the site was occupied for a long time, the progression of house styles and street patterns reflect the growing level of urban organization. Large pits found were understood to be granaries. Some scholars believe that Merimde pooled together surplus crops in some form of a community organization. Besides growing grains, residents of Merimde reared cattle, goats, and pigs. They hunted animals such as antelope. The Nile River gave them an ample supply of fish, shellfish, turtle, and hippopotamus. The pottery found at the site was rather plain and simple in shape. Tools were also found. Those made of stone and flint would have been used for butchery, craftwork, and felling trees. Some scholars believe that the pear shaped flint mace heads were used not for the killing of animals, but for the use on other humans, and believed that Merimde may have been at conflict with a neighboring community.
The Merimde funerary culture was quite different than that of other predynastic sites. Instead of interring the dead in large, organized cemeteries, the bodies were buried inside the settlement, mainly in the unoccupied sections of the town. It is impossible to determine if the bodies were buried in the houses while living people were still occupying them. The bodies were buried in shallow oval pits and laid on their sides in a fetal position. The bodies very rarely had grave offerings, apart from the occasional beads, amulets or reed mats. References: http://www.grim.com.pl/egpoltxe.hmlhttp://www.mq.edu.au/
Brega, Isabella. Egypt, Ancient and Modern. The American University in Cairo Press. CTM Milan. 1999. pp130-151.
Lastly, there is evidence of the Delta's contact with the Near-East through trade during pre-dynastic times. Various objects from the Levant and as far away as Mesopotamia have been found in local industries. However, again we aren't certain about the population.
There are scholars who interpret the conquered Delta people on the Narmer Palette as being Asiatics due to certain features they appear to have, but again, it's a matter of interpretation and these crude carvings on stone don't give quite as clear a picture as say the later painted works on tomb walls.
I am not denying the possibility that peoples from the Near-East could very well have settled in the Delta area. In fact the moderator believes this to be so.
What I am really denying is AMR's ridiculous claims that there was a large-scale mass migration and that it was this migration that sparked the development of Egyptian civilization!! What AMR does not realize is that Egyptian civilization developed in the south, not in the Delta. And there is ample evidence from predynastic sites that the foundation of Pharaonic civilization was purely African and not Near-Eastern. Although some Near-Eastern infuence was present by early dynastic times.
AMR seems to have this belief that the only way civilization, not just in the Nile Valley, but anywhere in Africa in general could only have happened through contact and "mixture" with non-Africans. And science has shown that this racist way of thinking just isn't the case!
[This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 16 July 2005).]
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Plus there have been no real study on the skeletal remains in the Delta. The Delta does not preserve skeletal well,and it often corrodes and makes material decay.
However, there is some Mesopotamian influence in the early Delta around the city of Buto.
The major cultures of pre-dyanstic Lower Egypt was the Merimede Ben Salama,Omari,and Maadi. Around the Maadi period there is actually evidence of possible migrants from Palestine living in Maadi.
The Delta is one part of Egyptian pre-dyanstic we don't know too much about. We know much more about Upper Egypt because many have left use intact burials.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by AMR1: There were many tribes who came from egypt in the 9th century to 15 cebntury who claim to be arabs, and settled in teh Sudan.
I am not just talking about the period of 1820-1956.
Also remember Egypt ruled Nubia between 2000b.c.-1150b.c. At a period many migrants from mesoptamia moved and lived in Egypt.
some from iraq not many,and some arab egyptians came into lower and upper nubia during that time,alwa the strongest kingdom in the sudan in the middle ages and they never had large egyptian arab groups living in alwa.
Egypt ruled lower nubia off and on during that time,and only upper nubia for about 500 years but not always,because upper nubians revolted off and on and southern nubia was never under egyptian rule.
[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 27 July 2005).]
He spelled it right but I don't think he is an Aswani. He is probably Jizan under a different name. Both Jizan and him trace to the same ip adress. Usually the lightest people in Aswan are Kushaf,desendants of Arabs,or desendants of Jainassary soliders. Anybody from Aswan who says that black people in that part are rare are definately not from Aswan.
ali, which village are you from? There are no Beja in Aswan. Just the Ababda who don't really look black at all but Arabic. Same goes with the Gi'afra.
He is right about there being lighter people in Aswan but what he does not tell you is that tons of Arab tribes settled around Aswan during the time of the Fatimids into the Ottoman period.
Most people from Luxor to Aswan are dark brown in apperance. There are some exceptions depending which village you go but most are dark-brown. Many don't look like Western or Central Africans but by America's standards they would most definately be categorized by black people.
I agree,that is true for today egypt and the further you go back the more on average the blacks of egypt would look like the average west/central african but even in those regions there are varied types.
Many long head types could be found in the sudanic regions of west and central africa and some in inner west and central africa as well.most sudanic long head africans have broad noses and (curly) kinky hair.for those who are dummies nappy hair is kinky(curly hair not combed and wavy curly hair is curly hair that is kind of straight like annie.
Not all sudanic types on average have long heads,most early nubians had broad or broader heads if you look at the early art and most still do today but less so on average.
[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 27 July 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by ausar: What you don't understand about Egyptian rulership was that it was mostly left in the order of the Egyptianized Nubians. Most were ethnic Nubians except the King's Son of Kush who was an Egyptican offical who watched over tribute. Some areas past the fourth cataract was never colonized by the Egyptians.
During the Middle Kingdom the Egyptians did set up fortresses around the third cataract. However, none of these fortresses contained very many Egyptians in them.
Remeber also that during the 6th dyansty many Nubian mercenaries settled all over Egypt. Even in parts of Middle Egypt and the Delta. The same goes with other foreign mercenaries.
Four books I recommend you to read are:
W.Y. Adams Nubia:Corridor to Africa
Bruce Trigger Nubia under the Pharaohs
Robert Morkot The Black Pharaohs
David O'Connor Ancient Nubia:Egypt's Rival in Africa
This deals with the time period you are speaking of.
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