posted
Maybe Egypt was. I don't necessarily believe that North-western Africa[Libya,Algeria,or Morocco] was predominately black. Only in the Sahara was black and still is black today.
When people make claims like this they need to cite material otherwise they are not taken serious.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
it is hard to consider this valuable information because he said it so blankly.
Egypt likely had a large black population (and it still does today in Upper Egypt)but Libyans were always painted with yellow skin and Mediterranean like features. Algerians and Moroccans probably weren't black but i don't know for sure. Algeria and Morocco have large Berber populations today, and all Berbers don't look the same.
quote:Originally posted by walklikeanegyptian: it is hard to consider this valuable information because he said it so blankly.
Egypt likely had a large black population (and it still does today in Upper Egypt)but Libyans were always painted with yellow skin and Mediterranean like features. Algerians and Moroccans probably weren't black but i don't know for sure. Algeria and Morocco have large Berber populations today, and all Berbers don't look the same.
Egypt was a black civilization and Egyptians were black it's been said over and over again by the Greeks and Romans, Aristotle,Herodotus, French historian Count Constantine de Volney,Marius Fontanes - "Les Egyptes",The Anzac troops upon arriving in Egypt during WWI ("My God, we didn't know the Egyptians were niggers!"),EW Budge - "Keeper of the Egyptian and Assyrian Antiquities, British Museum" and Chiek Anta Diop. Upper Egypt does have a black population and the Lower Egypt's black population has been absorbed in with the Arab,Greek, and Persian invaders.
quote:Originally posted by Ra- Hotep: Egypt was a black civilization and Egyptians were black it's been said over and over again by the Greeks and Romans, Aristotle,Herodotus, French historian Count Constantine de Volney,Marius Fontanes - "Les Egyptes",The Anzac troops upon arriving in Egypt during WWI ("My God, we didn't know the Egyptians were niggers!"),EW Budge - "Keeper of the Egyptian and Assyrian Antiquities, British Museum" and Chiek Anta Diop. Upper Egypt does have a black population and the Lower Egypt's black population has been absorbed in with the Arab,Greek, and Persian invaders.
and being the nice people they were, the Egyptians always welcomed anyone into their land and accepted them as Egyptians. but it is well known that the Lower Egyptian population is more mediterranean/caucasian and the Upper Egyptian population is largely black African.
but it is well known that the Lower Egyptian population is more mediterranean/caucasian and the Upper Egyptian population is largely black African.
Thought Writes:
Humans spread FROM Black Africa to the Mediterranean regions of Europe settling along the way. The real question is WHEN did non-African pheontypes evolve and when did humans with these non-African phenotypes migrate back into Africa. The evidence indicates that Europeans still had tropical African affinities as late as the mesolithic. It was toward the end of the Middle Kingdom that Lower Egypt received the flood of Hyksos/Eursian/Asiatics. Read "The Destruction of Black Civilization" by C. Williams.
posted
Hello, If the Early Egyptians and the other North Africans (Berbers) were black, then why cannot we see that in the modern time ?! both of those peoples are sill existant, but they are deeply arabiseds.
Some black historians would claim that all the early peoples were black, even the non-existent gods were black, according to them.
posted
You nailed it..."black historians." These guys don't care about history, just black politics,everyone knows that.
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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hey thanks for the image, i did saw other pages like this in other topic here. but -like as i see and you know- they images aren't showing black men. yes, it is clearly that they aren't white, besides they aren't black like as the black africans . I believe that the twareg are just negrofied because of their contact with the black africans as neighbours.
those brown men are just a small minority, because the majority of the berber are less negrogied.
I find this followed image most original, and scientific(because it dates from 1300 BC): source
[This message has been edited by Mazigh (edited 11 August 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: Hello, If the Early Egyptians and the other North Africans (Berbers) were black, then why cannot we see that in the modern time ?! both of those peoples are sill existant, but they are deeply arabiseds.
Some black historians would claim that all the early peoples were black, even the non-existent gods were black, according to them.
Calling someone Black is a political term used here in the United States. It is not scientific at all. However, based on phenotype and genetic standards used to call someone Black here in the United States, certainly Egypt was home to a Black population that was the majority.
posted
By the way, i did read that there were two groups in the encient egypt. One was from a white race, and the other was from a black race. Some scholars believe that those white egyptians were from the libyan/berber race who were immigrated to egypt.
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: hey thanks for the image, i did saw other pages like this in other topic here. but -like as i see and you know- they images aren't showing black men. yes, it is clearly that they aren't white, besides they aren't black like as the black africans . I believe that the twareg are just negrofied because of their contact with the black africans as neighbours.
those brown men are just a small minority, because the majority of the berber are less negrogied.
I find this followed image most original, and scientific(because it dates from 1300 BC): source
[This message has been edited by Mazigh (edited 11 August 2005).]
that wasn't made as a representation of all Berbers but only of Berbers in Libya who came into Egypt.
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: hey thanks for the image, i did saw other pages like this in other topic here. but -like as i see and you know- they images aren't showing black men. yes, it is clearly that they aren't white, besides they aren't black like as the black africans . I believe that the twareg are just negrofied because of their contact with the black africans as neighbours.
those brown men are just a small minority, because the majority of the berber are less negrogied.
I find this followed image most original, and scientific(because it dates from 1300 BC): source
[This message has been edited by Mazigh (edited 11 August 2005).]
The picture depicts someone with features common amongst African Americans.
As for light skinned North Africans, many if not most are now only approximately 20% African. However, the paternal lineage and languag phylum can be traced back to Sub-Sahara Africa (E3b and Afro-Cushitic).
Here is a person that is 25-30% Black (you wouldn't know unless she told you):
[This message has been edited by osirion (edited 11 August 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: hey thanks for the image,
You mean the photo of an Egyptian Berber? You do understand the difference between a photo and an "image"?
quote:I find this followed image most original, and scientific(because it dates from 1300 BC)
Your original question was: then why cannot we see that in the modern time ?!
That question was answered.
Your response makes reference to ancient iconography which is off the point of your own question, but that's ok....you run, I'll chase:
This picture: ..shows a people called the Tamehou, which literally means...the red ones. This is a reference to a fair skined Libyan tribe we 1st see in the New Kingdom.
They are NOT the original Berber, who are referred to as the Tehennu, of Siwa and who are 1st referenced in the old kingdom and dipicted as Black.
The photographs we were shown are of the direct descendants of these people, per your inquiry.
As for the Tomb of Seth image of the Tamhou, here is what Champollion the Younger, who diciphered the Rosseta Stone had to say about the image above:
"According to the legend...they (the Ancient Egyptians) wished to represent the inhabitants of Egypt and those of foreign lands. Thus we have before our eyes the image of the various races of man known to the Egyptians... the last one is what we call flesh-colored, a white skin of the most delicate shade, a nose straight or slightly arched, blue eyes, blond or reddish beard, tall stature and very slender, clad in a hairy ox-skin, a veritable savage... he is called Tamhou. - Champollion the Younger.
Lastly here is what Champollion has to say about the original Egyptians:
The first tribes that inhabited Egypt, that is, the Nile Valley between the Syene cataract and the sea, came from Abyssinia [Ethiopia] to Sennar.
The ancient Egyptians belonged to a race quite similar to the Kennous or Barabras, present inhabitants of Nubia.
In the Copts of Egypt, we do not find any of the characteristic features of the ancient Egyptian population. The Copts are the result of crossbreeding with all the nations that have successively dominated Egypt. It is wrong to seek in them the principal features of the old race" - Champollion the Younger.
Any further questions?
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 11 August 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by walklikeanegyptian: that wasn't made as a representation of all Berbers but only of Berbers in Libya who came into Egypt.
right! But this followed images are representing a man from the "meshwesh tribe" (also berbers). the "meshwesh" are original from the modern Algeria and Tunisia. (the same source)
quote:right! But this followed images are representing a man from the "meshwesh tribe" (also berbers). the "meshwesh" are original from the modern Algeria and Tunisia.
Once more: All of your pictures are referencing the Tamhou.
We know they are 'white' [red ones], because the AE called them that.
Just as they called themselves: blacks. Kemetu.
The original Berber from the ancient Egyptian texts are NOT the Tamhou, but rather the Tehennu - the Siwa,
....sorry.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 11 August 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: By the way, i did read that there were two groups in the encient egypt. One was from a white race, and the other was from a black race. Some scholars believe that those white egyptians were from the libyan/berber race who were immigrated to egypt.
Is there a better term for "black" ?
Race is a spurious concept which boundaries will always be debated because it doesn't really exist.
What can't be debated is the lineage of Egyptians. They are part of the PN2 clade and that group contains a lot of interesting groups of people: (oromo, tutsi, fulani, berbers, borana, mesai, etc).
Sure , That picture is schowing chiefs of the berber tribe that was called "Libou or Ribou". Why do you thinkt they are Tamehou ? That is onother Berber tribe !
You said that Tamahou leterally means the red ones. In wish language ?!
You said: " They are NOT the original Berber, who are referred to as the Tehennu, of Siwa and who are 1st referenced in the old kingdom and dipicted as Black. "
I know that tehenou are onother berber tribe, but i don't think they are depicted as black. can you give any image(drawing) for those black berbers ?
Abut the Berbers: "It is worth noting that the ancient Libyans, by the way, were a white people." [Libyans= Berbers in this context]
"..Most of the foreign peoples who overran and conquered the locals of Egypt were white. The ancient Libyans, a blondish people, who once dominated North Africa from Morocco to modern Libya, conquered Egypt in prehistoric times. Indeed, some authorities believe the pharaohs were actually of the Libyan race, not the Egyptian. The Libyans were also the ancestors of the modern Berbers. Although today’s Berbers have been heavily Negrified in most regions, red hair is still common among the Berbers of the Rif.." (From the above text)
posted
Hey Rasol, Libou or Ribou were a berber (Libyan) tribe. The meaning of "Libou/Ribou" is unknown. It is even unknwon from wish language it originats. Temehou were a Berber tribe. Tehenou were a Berber tribe. Meswhesh were a Berber tribe. All the meanings of those tribes's names are unknown, i think. I also don't think that those names would be derived from the Egyptian language.
search and find .
[This message has been edited by Mazigh (edited 11 August 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: Hey Rasol, Libou or Ribou were a berber (Libyan) tribe. The meaning of "Libou/Ribou" is unknown. It is even unknwon from wish language it originats. Temehou were a Berber tribe. Tehenou were a Berber tribe. Meswhesh were a Berber tribe. All the meanings of those tribes's names are unknown, i think. I also don't think that those names would be derived from the Egyptian language.
search and find .
[This message has been edited by Mazigh (edited 11 August 2005).]
In Libya, they come in all colors, Egyptians were possibly using stereotypes in depicting them. They didn't view most of the neighboring cultures as valuable and it was easy to generalize in order to distinguish themselves from surrounding people. Whatever is on a picture is not necessarily the perfect reality, it can be biased. Relaxx
[This message has been edited by relaxx (edited 11 August 2005).]
quote: Libya, they come in all colors, Egyptians were possibly using stereotypes in depicting them.
They simply reflected the reality of different groups of people living to the West - whom they generalised as Libou, but also named and depicted specifically in terms of ethnic features.
Just because NAZI websites are confused, doesn't mean we have to be.
Tubu / Toubou is a name given to two groups of related peoples, the Teda and Daza. “Within the borders of Libya, Chad and Sudan live black nomads who we know under the name Tubu, a term in the Kanembu language that designates the people resident in Tibesti [Chad]. This term was adopted during the French Colonial period and has now come into common usage. However, the people do not use this term and do not necessarily identify themselves as one people within the vast territory. Strictly, they recognise themselves as several large groups: the Tédas in the North, the Dazas in the South. They distinguish themselves from the Bideyat and the Zaghawa whom they consider as outsiders but who are evidently quite closely allied to them.”
“The "Teda-Daza" group unites peoples who speak either Tedaga or Dazaga. In the strict sense of the term, Teda specifies the residents of Tibesti, while these people have migrated to the periphery of Ennedi or the oases of Djado in Niger. Dazaga is not exclusively the language of the Daza, but also neighbouring groups which are known by the Arabic term Gorane. If the Teda are seen as camel herders, the Deza should be identified as cattle herders, though many Gorane also rais camels.”
quote:Originally posted by rasol: They simply reflected the reality of different groups of people living to the West - whom they generalised as Libou, but also named and depicted specifically in terms of ethnic features.
Just because NAZI websites are confused, doesn't mean we have to be.
Certainly it is a nazi website, but I just wanted to emphasize the fact that it's a general description, and might be biased in order for the Egyptians to distinguish themselves from their neighbours...there was no clear frontier between Libous and Egyptians...it's like Eritreans and Ethiopians saying that Somalis are very dark, but when you look closer the difference is not big and that's exaclty what they(Eritreans and Ethiopians) think...maybe many Libous not all were as dark as Egyptians like the Tedas from the Sahara in the above picture... Relaxx
[This message has been edited by relaxx (edited 11 August 2005).]
[This message has been edited by relaxx (edited 11 August 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: hey thanks for the image, i did saw other pages like this in other topic here. but -like as i see and you know- they images aren't showing black men. yes, it is clearly that they aren't white, besides they aren't black like as the black africans . I believe that the twareg are just negrofied because of their contact with the black africans as neighbours.
those brown men are just a small minority, because the majority of the berber are less negrogied.
What the heck is this guy talking about?!!
Blacks were the original inhabitants of North Africa. Has he heard of the Haratin?
And what the heck is "negrogied"?!!
LMAO
The people who Berber languages are diverse and include many 'black Berbers' no doubt the original inhabitants
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Why are giving the images of the twaregs. the twareg are the most negrofied because of the slavery, and their contact with the black Africans. besides, the Twareg aren't black but brown, and sometime too brown but not really black.
The twareg are berbers, but they a very small minoriry among the berbers.
[This message has been edited by Mazigh (edited 12 August 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: Hello, If the Early Egyptians and the other North Africans (Berbers) were black, then why cannot we see that in the modern time ?! both of those peoples are sill existant, but they are deeply arabiseds.
Some black historians would claim that all the early peoples were black, even the non-existent gods were black, according to them.
In North Africa, the further you go back the further you'll find black people in North Africa and yes: the San people whose remains has been found as far as North Africa. The problem with many North Africans and non African people is that they don't know what Africans look like. I noticed among some Berbers Ethiopian-and Somali features that you don't really see among Arabs or Europeans: very long face, very small nose, big eyes...genetics indicate that they probably originated in North Eastern Africa or the Horn of Africa. You are right Tuareg are not representative of all Berbers. But I can bet a lot of money that the Berber's male ancestors didn't look European or Arab but probably looked like this: AFAR
BORANA
and then mixed with Arabs and European women, that's why Berbers lost their original feature and look more like Arabs and Europeans. Relaxx
[This message has been edited by relaxx (edited 12 August 2005).]
quote:Has he heard of the Haratin? The are originally black slaves from Africa
This is incorrect. Haratin were not slaves from further south but are actual indigenous Saharan Oasis dwellers. The Haratin means agritcultural farmer and not slave. When people refer to real enslaved populations in northern Africa they usually use terms like abid and not Haratin. The only exception to the Haratin being of slave origins is in Mauritania. In Morocco,Libya,and Algeria the Haratin are indigenous Saharan Oasis dwellers.
You see what happened was that people like Tuareg abosrbed and added the Haratin to the caste system where they worked as serfs and agritcultural labor. However, they are not of slave origins. This is one of the biggest myths and misconceptions about the Haratin people.
Alot of people say the Tuaregs became darker through importation of slaves. I really don't buy this hypothesis because the Tuaregs did trade slaves but they never really allowed the lower-rung of slaves to intermarry with the elite. Most elite Tuarges look like people from the Horn of Africa. The Tuaregs also dealt white slaves from areas like eastern Europe and the Mediterranean.
Along the Barbary coast you had Turkish and Berber pirates that captured white slaves from as far as England. Not to mention all around the Mediteranean coast. The European slave trade in north-western Africa was intense and consisted of white males and females.
As far as the Libyans, the original Libyans were the Tehennu and they were painted in about the same hue as Egyptians. Often times reddish-brown and also in dark-brown coloring. It was only in later periods around the 18th dyansty that they began to become painted in more bright colors with sometimes reddish hair. The tehennu according to Gabriel Camps were identified with the modern Fulani people[Camps, G. Berbers-Aux Marges de l?Historie Toulouse Hesperides 1980]
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:The Tuaregs also dealt white slaves from areas like eastern Europe and the Mediterranean
This is the 'real' slavery issue as far as Berber Origins are concerned.
The fact is Kabyle and some other Berbers have mostly West European female lineages.
quote: Thought Writes:
Rando et al. 1998
"The majority of maternal ancestors of the Berbers mus have COME FROM EUROPE and the Near East SINCE the Neolithic."
Gonzalez et al. 2003
The most prominent North African mtDNA was found to be Haplogroup H at a nearly 20% frequency.
Plaza et al.
The most prominent Moroccan Berber mtDNA was found to be Haplogroup H at a frequency of 42.2%.
The most prominent Southern Berber mtDNA was found to be Haplogroup H at a frequency of 32% and V at 10%.
Given these scientific results the following study by Achilli et al. 2004 is of interest. Haplogroups V and H seem to have spread together from the Franco-Cantabrian refugia after the LGM. Table 1 is of particular interest. Haplogroup H has a frequency of 36.8% in Moroccan Berbers and 1.4% in Egyptian Berbers. It has a frequency of 51.9% in Basques and 46.9% in Northern Italians. Haplogroup H has a frequency of 19.9% in Iraq and 10.6% in Arabian Peninsula populations. This indicates that the predominate Berber mtDNA Haplogroups (H and V) did NOT spread from the Near East to NW Africa but from the Iberian peninsula and Europe straight to Africa. This information correspondes with the historical data of female derived slavery into NW Africa. http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Achilli2004.pdf
quote:"Haplogroup H has a frequency of 36.8% in Moroccan Berbers and 1.4% in....Egyptian Berbers".
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 12 August 2005).]
So the maternal lineage for Berbers is not Eurasian or Jewish? That is news to me. Either way how can we account for such an imbalance? Why would we have a primarily non-African source of women in comparison to the mulatoo males? I understand there was an extensive slave trade of women but I didn't think it came from Italy.
How can we explain this (plunder and rape of women after dissimation of the male populace with mass relocation)?
posted
defenition of the haratins for Djehuti and me (because i had given an incorrect answer):
quote:HARATIN Haratin is derived from the Arabic word freedom, yet they are believed to be the wretched of the Mauritanian desert. In Mauritania the term has been applied on former slaves whereas the current slaves are called abid, singular abd. Both categories are still economically and culturally attached to their present or former Arab masters (Mercer, 1982, Africa Watch, Paringaux, 1990). The Harantins are of negroid descent who were kidnapped into slavery by the Arab Mauritanians (Diallo, 1989, Africa Watch, 1990. They have lost almost every aspect of their African origin but their black colour.
So the maternal lineage for Berbers is not Eurasian or Jewish? That is news to me. Either way how can we account for such an imbalance? Why would we have a primarily non-African source of women in comparison to the mulatoo males? I understand there was an extensive slave trade of women but I didn't think it came from Italy.
How can we explain this (plunder and rape of women after dissimation of the male populace with mass relocation)?
In North Africa, the further you go back the further you'll find black people in North Africa and yes: the San people whose remains has been found as far as North Africa. The problem with many North Africans and non African people is that they don't know what Africans look like. I noticed among some Berbers Ethiopian-and Somali features that you don't really see among Arabs or Europeans: very long face, very small nose, big eyes...genetics indicate that they probably originated in North Eastern Africa or the Horn of Africa. You are right Tuareg are not representative of all Berbers. But I can bet a lot of money that the Berber's male ancestors didn't look European or Arab but probably looked like this: AFAR
BORANA
and then mixed with Arabs and European women, that's why Berbers lost their original feature and look more like Arabs and Europeans.
Interesting thing is that, as really dark as these folks appear, if their skulls were to be analyzed years after they are deceased, some eurocentric reactionary would insist that they were not black.
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
(the same source)
, That picture is schowing chiefs of the berber tribe that was called "Libou or Ribou". Why do you thinkt they are Tamehou ? That is onother Berber tribe !
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