posted
I am just curious because most of my Somali friends come from cities like Mogadishu or Hargeysa, but I am interested in Somalis from the rural country because I'm doing some research into something.
Posts: 26343 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I am just curious because most of my Somali friends come from cities like Mogadishu or Hargeysa, but I am interested in Somalis from the rural country because I'm doing some research into something.
cool...well i dont know much...
howver the clans and ppls are scattered everywhere.....
many assume the hawiya live south while the daroods occupy North kenya and south somalia.. same too goes with eastern ethiopia (british/ethiop somaliland)..ogaden
posted
Thought, I just want to let you know that I am doing some very interesting research on Afrasian. I have contacted Christopher Ehret via e-mail and he was surprised as to what I am researching and what I discovered.
What I discovered comes mainly from nomads in the Horn area, like rural Somalis.
Posts: 26343 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Thought, I just want to let you know that I am doing some very interesting research on Afrasian. I have contacted Christopher Ehret via e-mail and he was surprised as to what I am researching and what I discovered.
What I discovered comes mainly from nomads in the Horn area, like rural Somalis.
Thought Writes:
That sounds great. Would you like to share your research with us?
quote:Originally posted by relaxx: Anyway he's from the North, who cares abouth Northern Somalis: Gadaboursis, Issaqhs, Issas, Warsengeli, Dolbahante...who think they are all Yemenis, I mean Issaqs look like Amharas and they pretend to be pure Somalis, good joke...say hello to your Yemeni friends... Relaxx
[This message has been edited by relaxx (edited 17 September 2005).]
Relaxx how are Isaaqs not pure SOmalis when the their Somali dialect is used as written and proper spoken language...to say the Isaaqs are not pure Somalis is like saying the British in England are not pure British and that the British who migrated to the New world are more british than the English...
Relaxx I don't think you have ever met anyone from tribe of Isaaq, because if you did you wouldn't confuse them with anyone except other Somalis...
Relaxx more picture of President Riyale Kahlin of Somaliland
[This message has been edited by Ceelgabo_11 (edited 18 September 2005).]
[This message has been edited by Ceelgabo_11 (edited 18 September 2005).]
[This message has been edited by Ceelgabo_11 (edited 18 September 2005).]
posted
Yes, Well I would like to present it here on this forum or in Ausar's Nile Valley forum, but there are pictures I want to scan but my scanner is back home.
Back in highschool I did a report on Indo-European iconography. My thesis was that certain certain objects can be traced to Indo-Europeans like the vajra(thunder-bolt), trident, and battle-axe. All of these objects are weapons and symbolize the aspects of the warrior. And many scholars like Gordon Childe and Joseph Campbell agree that Indo-European culture was based on a warrrior elite.
Right now it seems I have uncovered ritual objects or icons that might represent proto-Afrasian speakers. So far I asked Ehret if he knew of this and his reply was that he didn't and is very intrigued about what I found.
[This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 17 September 2005).]
Posts: 26343 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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How about asking Dr. Ehret to come to either Egyptsearch or TheNileValley forum?
Oh God, I'm afraid I'd be embarrass to ask a preeminent scholar to come here! No offense but Horemheb is right that this place has become somewhat of a debauchary!! I'd rather invite him to your new forum which is much more civilized!!
[This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 17 September 2005).]
Posts: 26343 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Oh God, I'm afraid I'd be embarass to ask a preeminent scholar to come here! No offense but Horemheb is right that this place has become somewhat of a debauchary!! I'd rather invite him to your new forum which is much more civilized!!
[This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 17 September 2005).]
what about nile valley??
yea...its a playground for wondering retards...lol
posted
If you are interested in what I found I'll just tell you guys straight out, since I don't know when I'll be able to use my scanner and show the pics here.
What I discovered was that rural Somali nomads possess the 'was' scepter of Egyptians and Somali women use weger amulets that Egyptian women use!! There could be more and perhaps in other Afrasian peoples outside the Horn which is why my research is not complete.
[This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 17 September 2005).]
Posts: 26343 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Then invite Dr. Ehret over to the Nile Valley. But scholars should also visit this forum to really think about objective reserch. Academics in the anthropology and linguistic field should realize that they walk on egg shells,for a politically motivated group can take their data and turn it into support for their idealogy.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: If you are interested in what I found I'll just tell you guys straight out, since I don't know when I'll be able to use my scanner and show the pics here.
What I discovered was that rural Somali nomads possess the 'was' scepter of Egyptians and Somali women use weger amulets that Egyptian women use!! There could be more and perhaps in other Afrasian peoples outside the Horn which is why my research is not complete.
[This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 17 September 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by leba: Somalia was not part of Aksum...
Funny how the border stops at the somali area of Djibouti
There are many maps of Aksum. This is just one example. Read the example I posted and you'll see my point. At least you are avoiding political saber rattling here and logically debating the facts.
quote:Originally posted by COBRA: Just because you were made to beg...
Doesn’t mean you have to bring us to your level.
[This message has been edited by COBRA (edited 17 September 2005).]
Jews have been slaves. Greeks have been slaves. Romans have been slaves. Egyptians have been slaves. Slavery has touched every population in the world. It is rather arrogant of anyone to claim that they have never experienced slavery. Historically speaking it is a very common institution amongst people.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: Jews have been slaves. Greeks have been slaves. Romans have been slaves. Egyptians have been slaves. Slavery has touched every population in the world. It is rather arrogant of anyone to claim that they have never experienced slavery. Historically speaking it is a very common institution amongst people.
so ur assuming the ethnic somali pop had to of since ur analoge of all three groups nor diff the somali pop....
will if its based on ur assumption anything flys...purley subjective
listing the somali pops under the aksum and absiynnian kingdoms...
With no peer reviews... or facts....
Case U CANT FIND ANY ..... u wont ....so stop spinning in circles and move on...
history is history ...u cant change it to ur liking.. its a *****....
quote:Originally posted by mali: so ur assuming the ethnic somali pop had to of since ur analoge of all three groups nor diff the somali pop....
will if its based on ur assumption anything flys...purley subjective
listing the somali pops under the aksum and absiynnian kingdoms...
With no peer reviews... or facts....
Case U CANT FIND ANY ..... u wont ....so stop spinning in circles and move on...
history is history ...u cant change it to ur liking.. its a *****....
Summary history of Somalia(Encarta):
The history of the region now included in Somalia dates from antiquity, when the land was known to the ancient Egyptians as Punt. From the 2nd to the 7th century ad parts of the area belonged to the Ethiopian kingdom of Aksum. Arab tribes in the 7th century settled along the coast of the Gulf of Aden and established the sultanate of Adal, which centered on the port of Zeila. The Somali people began slowly to migrate into this region from Yemen in the 9th century. The sultanate disintegrated during the 16th century into small independent states, many of which were ruled by Somali chiefs. Zeila became a dependency of Yemen, and was then captured by the Ottoman Empire.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: Summary history of Somalia(Encarta):
The history of the region now included in Somalia dates from antiquity, when the land was known to the ancient Egyptians as Punt. From the 2nd to the 7th century ad parts of the area belonged to the Ethiopian kingdom of Aksum. Arab tribes in the 7th century settled along the coast of the Gulf of Aden and established the sultanate of Adal, which centered on the port of Zeila. The Somali people began slowly to migrate into this region from Yemen in the 9th century. The sultanate disintegrated during the 16th century into small independent states, many of which were ruled by Somali chiefs. Zeila became a dependency of Yemen, and was then captured by the Ottoman Empire.
Osiros if you are using this encyclopedia to proof that Aksum controlled part Somali than you lost all credibility...
"From the 2nd to the 7th century ad parts of the area belonged to the Ethiopian kingdom of Aksum. Arab tribes in the 7th century settled along the coast of the Gulf of Aden and established the sultanate of Adal, which centered on the port of Zeila. The Somali people began slowly to migrate into this region from Yemen in the 9th century."
If this is true than wouldn't SOmalis today speak Arabic language like North Africans or wouldn't they look like Arabs like North Africans or atleast carry more Arab genes than the native gene...
quote:Originally posted by leba: Warsangali, why do you want to know?
Warsangalis are Darod, who claim to have Arab origins unlike many other Somali clans. What I don't understand is why someone who probably doesn't have African roots try to depict Somalis as Arab looking and different from Black Africans. Well I guess you were properly brainwashed by your Darod ancestors... Relaxx
quote:Originally posted by relaxx: [QUOTE]Originally posted by leba: [b] Warsangali, why do you want to know?
Warsangalis are Darod, who claim to have Arab origins unlike many other Somali clans. What I don't understand is why someone who probably doesn't have African roots try to depict Somalis as Arab looking and different from Black Africans. Well I guess you were properly brainwashed by your Darod ancestors... Relaxx
[/B][/QUOTE]
First Isaaqs are not Somalis, know Warsengalis and other Daroods are not SOmalis...than who the hell is Somali if Isaaqs and Daroods make up 75% of the population in Somali...
[This message has been edited by Ceelgabo_11 (edited 18 September 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by relaxx: [QUOTE]Originally posted by leba: [b] Warsangali, why do you want to know?
Warsangalis are Darod, who claim to have Arab origins unlike many other Somali clans. What I don't understand is why someone who probably doesn't have African roots try to depict Somalis as Arab looking and different from Black Africans. Well I guess you were properly brainwashed by your Darod ancestors... Relaxx
[/B][/QUOTE]
Ur a fool...lMAO...
Daroods are the majority group in and outside somalia...INCLUDE OGADEN.....
And they share direct lineage with the hawiyaa... LMAO..ur funny
play devils advocate...
since warsangilis DONT ONLY LIVE IN THE NORTH..Theres A HARTI GROUP.... THAT LIVE ADJACENT TO UBGAL (hawiya) and ARE INCLUDED AS A SUB-CLAN OF THE UBGAL----who are WARSINGILI!!!
LMAO.....you cant refute....lmao..
SINCE A HUGE Warlord ...by red shirt--shatti gthud....is Of that SUB-Clan....
ur...hilarious calling daroods arabs..lol.... hawiyaas must be arabs too since they share direct lineage with the daroods...
quote:Originally posted by Ceelgabo_11: Osiros if you are using this encyclopedia to proof that Aksum controlled part Somali than you lost all credibility...
"From the 2nd to the 7th century ad parts of the area belonged to the Ethiopian kingdom of Aksum. Arab tribes in the 7th century settled along the coast of the Gulf of Aden and established the sultanate of Adal, which centered on the port of Zeila. The Somali people began slowly to migrate into this region from Yemen in the 9th century."
If this is true than wouldn't SOmalis today speak Arabic language like North Africans or wouldn't they look like Arabs like North Africans or atleast carry more Arab genes than the native gene...
I agree, I need much better references. As for the issue of Yemen migration into Somalia, to some extent this certainly happened. What is interesting is that Yemen was under the political control of Aksum (they were allies to a degree that the Aksumites imposed Kings on the Yemeni people):
Rise and fall of Aksum, from Stuart Munro-Hay.
Arab royal inscriptions of the 3rd century tell us - first hand evidence, written by the enemy - how Aksumite kings sent their sons with fleets and armies to ally with rival Yemeni tribes, slowly carving out a great Afro-Asiatic empire that bridged the Red Sea, and allowed the kings of Aksum to impose kings on the Yemeni Arabs. When, around 570AD, the Persians conquered Yemen, the blaze of all this magnificence, fuelled by commercial riches, faded away. The Red Sea trade with Rome and India slipped from Aksum’s control. With the rise of Islam around 640 a new world map was drawn, excluding Aksum.
So we now know that it was the Cushites that founded the Aksum civilization and not the Yemeni. The Aksum Cushites allied themselves with the Shebean people and migration of Yemeni people into the horn was the natural result. It mistakenly was thought that the Aksum civilization actually originated from Yemen. Where evidence is lacking, European prejudice against Africans is the standard speculative practice what we see documented in Encyclopedias.
posted
A paucity of written historical evidence forces the student of early Somalia to depend on the findings of archeology, anthropology, historical linguistics, and related disciplines. Such evidence has provided insights that in some cases have refuted conventional explanations of the origins and evolution of the Somali people. For example, where historians once believed that the Somalis originated on the Red Sea's western coast, or perhaps in southern Arabia, it now seems clear that the ancestral homeland of the Somalis, together with affiliated Cushite peoples, was in the highlands of southern Ethiopia, specifically in the lake regions. Similarly, the once-common notion that the migration and settlement of early Mus,lims followers of the Prophet Muhammad on the Somali coast in the early centuries of Islam had a significant impact on the Somalis no longer enjoys much academic support. Scholars now recognize that the Arab factor--except for the Somalis' conversion to Islam--is marginal to understanding the Somali past. Furthermore, conventional wisdom once held that Somali migrations followed a north-to-south route; the reverse of this now appears to be nearer the truth.
Increasingly, evidence places the Somalis within a wide family of peoples called Eastern Cushites by modern linguists and described earlier in some instances as Hamites. From a broader cultural-linguistic perspective, the Cushite family belongs to a vast stock of languages and peoples considered Afro-Asiatic. Afro-Asiatic languages in turn include Cushitic (principally Somali, Oromo, and Afar), the Hausa language of Nigeria, and the Semitic languages of Arabic, Hebrew, and Amharic. Medieval Arabs referred to the Eastern Cushites as the Berberi.
In addition to the Somalis, the Cushites include the largely nomadic Afar (Danakil), who straddle the Great Rift Valley between Ethiopia and Djibouti; the Oromo, who have played such a large role in Ethiopian history and in the 1990s constituted roughly one-half of the Ethiopian population and were also numerous in northern Kenya; the Reendille (Rendilli) of Kenya; and the Aweera (Boni) along the Lamu coast in Kenya. The Somalis belong to a subbranch of the Cushites, the Omo-Tana group, whose languages are almost mutually intelligible. The original home of the Omo-Tana group appears to have been on the Omo and Tana rivers, in an area extending from Lake Turkana in present-day northern Kenya to the Indian Ocean coast.
The Somalis form a subgroup of the Omo-Tana called Sam. Having split from the main stream of Cushite peoples about the first half of the first millennium B.C., the proto-Sam appear to have spread to the grazing plains of northern Kenya, where protoSam communities seem to have followed the Tana River and to have reached the Indian Ocean coast well before the first century A.D. On the coast, the proto-Sam splintered further; one group (the Boni) remained on the Lamu Archipelago, and the other moved northward to populate southern Somalia. There the group's members eventually developed a mixed economy based on farming and animal husbandry, a mode of life still common in southern Somalia. Members of the proto-Sam who came to occupy the Somali Peninsula were known as the so-called Samaale, or Somaal, a clear reference to the mythical father figure of the main Somali clan-families, whose name gave rise to the term Somali.
The Samaale again moved farther north in search of water and pasturelands. They swept into the vast Ogaden (Ogaadeen) plains, reaching the southern shore of the Red Sea by the first century A.D. German scholar Bernd Heine, who wrote in the 1970s on early Somali history, observed that the Samaale had occupied the entire Horn of Africa by approximately 100 A.D.
On the coast, the proto-Sam splintered further; one group (the Boni) remained on the Lamu Archipelago...
Thought Writes:
Great post Mali. From a Pan-African perspective we need to do more research on the connections between Africans of the Americas and Africans of the SE African coast. The Swahili coast was a Pan-African melting pot like Ancient Egypt. This same region later served as a pool for slave traders to the America's.
[This message has been edited by Thought2 (edited 18 September 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by mali: what area of somalia are these ppl located...
I am not really sure. I found this in a book about Somalian culture and I will have to find it again. But these objects are also used by other nomad peoples in Ethiopia.
Posts: 26343 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by mali: A paucity of written historical evidence forces the student of early Somalia to depend on the findings of archeology, anthropology, historical linguistics, and related disciplines. Such evidence has provided insights that in some cases have refuted conventional explanations of the origins and evolution of the Somali people. For example, where historians once believed that the Somalis originated on the Red Sea's western coast, or perhaps in southern Arabia, it now seems clear that the ancestral homeland of the Somalis, together with affiliated Cushite peoples, was in the highlands of southern Ethiopia, specifically in the lake regions. Similarly, the once-common notion that the migration and settlement of early Mus,lims followers of the Prophet Muhammad on the Somali coast in the early centuries of Islam had a significant impact on the Somalis no longer enjoys much academic support. Scholars now recognize that the Arab factor--except for the Somalis' conversion to Islam--is marginal to understanding the Somali past. Furthermore, conventional wisdom once held that Somali migrations followed a north-to-south route; the reverse of this now appears to be nearer the truth.
Increasingly, evidence places the Somalis within a wide family of peoples called Eastern Cushites by modern linguists and described earlier in some instances as Hamites. From a broader cultural-linguistic perspective, the Cushite family belongs to a vast stock of languages and peoples considered Afro-Asiatic. Afro-Asiatic languages in turn include Cushitic (principally Somali, Oromo, and Afar), the Hausa language of Nigeria, and the Semitic languages of Arabic, Hebrew, and Amharic. Medieval Arabs referred to the Eastern Cushites as the Berberi.
In addition to the Somalis, the Cushites include the largely nomadic Afar (Danakil), who straddle the Great Rift Valley between Ethiopia and Djibouti; the Oromo, who have played such a large role in Ethiopian history and in the 1990s constituted roughly one-half of the Ethiopian population and were also numerous in northern Kenya; the Reendille (Rendilli) of Kenya; and the Aweera (Boni) along the Lamu coast in Kenya. The Somalis belong to a subbranch of the Cushites, the Omo-Tana group, whose languages are almost mutually intelligible. The original home of the Omo-Tana group appears to have been on the Omo and Tana rivers, in an area extending from Lake Turkana in present-day northern Kenya to the Indian Ocean coast.
The Somalis form a subgroup of the Omo-Tana called Sam. Having split from the main stream of Cushite peoples about the first half of the first millennium B.C., the proto-Sam appear to have spread to the grazing plains of northern Kenya, where protoSam communities seem to have followed the Tana River and to have reached the Indian Ocean coast well before the first century A.D. On the coast, the proto-Sam splintered further; one group (the Boni) remained on the Lamu Archipelago, and the other moved northward to populate southern Somalia. There the group's members eventually developed a mixed economy based on farming and animal husbandry, a mode of life still common in southern Somalia. Members of the proto-Sam who came to occupy the Somali Peninsula were known as the so-called Samaale, or Somaal, a clear reference to the mythical father figure of the main Somali clan-families, whose name gave rise to the term Somali.
The Samaale again moved farther north in search of water and pasturelands. They swept into the vast Ogaden (Ogaadeen) plains, reaching the southern shore of the Red Sea by the first century A.D. German scholar Bernd Heine, who wrote in the 1970s on early Somali history, observed that the Samaale had occupied the entire Horn of Africa by approximately 100 A.D.
Mali, I recognize this information. This comes from the book Peoples and Customs of Somalia which is part of the Peoples and Customs of Africa series. You should cite your sources.
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posted
Another thing the book mentions is how early scholars tried to limit the definition of what is "African". Doing this to Egyptians first and then Somalis.
I find that book to be very useful in understanding the origins and nature of the Somali people not like some other books that still go by that ridiculous dead Hamitic theory.
Posts: 26343 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
hawiyaas must be arabs too since they share direct lineage with the daroods...
lol...[/B][/QUOTE]
In your dream, since when Hawiyaas have ever claimed Arab ancestry, this is in the domain of Darod and Issaqh, you just have to read leba's garbage... Relaxx
quote:Originally posted by mali: A paucity of written historical evidence forces the student of early Somalia to depend on the findings of archeology, anthropology, historical linguistics, and related disciplines. Such evidence has provided insights that in some cases have refuted conventional explanations of the origins and evolution of the Somali people. For example, where historians once believed that the Somalis originated on the Red Sea's western coast, or perhaps in southern Arabia, it now seems clear that the ancestral homeland of the Somalis, together with affiliated Cushite peoples, was in the highlands of southern Ethiopia, specifically in the lake regions. Similarly, the once-common notion that the migration and settlement of early Mus,lims followers of the Prophet Muhammad on the Somali coast in the early centuries of Islam had a significant impact on the Somalis no longer enjoys much academic support. Scholars now recognize that the Arab factor--except for the Somalis' conversion to Islam--is marginal to understanding the Somali past. Furthermore, conventional wisdom once held that Somali migrations followed a north-to-south route; the reverse of this now appears to be nearer the truth.
Increasingly, evidence places the Somalis within a wide family of peoples called Eastern Cushites by modern linguists and described earlier in some instances as Hamites. From a broader cultural-linguistic perspective, the Cushite family belongs to a vast stock of languages and peoples considered Afro-Asiatic. Afro-Asiatic languages in turn include Cushitic (principally Somali, Oromo, and Afar), the Hausa language of Nigeria, and the Semitic languages of Arabic, Hebrew, and Amharic. Medieval Arabs referred to the Eastern Cushites as the Berberi.
In addition to the Somalis, the Cushites include the largely nomadic Afar (Danakil), who straddle the Great Rift Valley between Ethiopia and Djibouti; the Oromo, who have played such a large role in Ethiopian history and in the 1990s constituted roughly one-half of the Ethiopian population and were also numerous in northern Kenya; the Reendille (Rendilli) of Kenya; and the Aweera (Boni) along the Lamu coast in Kenya. The Somalis belong to a subbranch of the Cushites, the Omo-Tana group, whose languages are almost mutually intelligible. The original home of the Omo-Tana group appears to have been on the Omo and Tana rivers, in an area extending from Lake Turkana in present-day northern Kenya to the Indian Ocean coast.
The Somalis form a subgroup of the Omo-Tana called Sam. Having split from the main stream of Cushite peoples about the first half of the first millennium B.C., the proto-Sam appear to have spread to the grazing plains of northern Kenya, where protoSam communities seem to have followed the Tana River and to have reached the Indian Ocean coast well before the first century A.D. On the coast, the proto-Sam splintered further; one group (the Boni) remained on the Lamu Archipelago, and the other moved northward to populate southern Somalia. There the group's members eventually developed a mixed economy based on farming and animal husbandry, a mode of life still common in southern Somalia. Members of the proto-Sam who came to occupy the Somali Peninsula were known as the so-called Samaale, or Somaal, a clear reference to the mythical father figure of the main Somali clan-families, whose name gave rise to the term Somali.
The Samaale again moved farther north in search of water and pasturelands. They swept into the vast Ogaden (Ogaadeen) plains, reaching the southern shore of the Red Sea by the first century A.D. German scholar Bernd Heine, who wrote in the 1970s on early Somali history, observed that the Samaale had occupied the entire Horn of Africa by approximately 100 A.D.
That confirms the fact that the Hawiyes are the purest Somali since they originally came from the South, as for Darods(like leba) and Issaqhs...who knows...either their ancestors are from Yemen, or they were totally confused.... Relaxx
posted
I'm confused. We seem to be going back and forth with topics. Are we discussing Somalis, Afrasian, or genetic lineages in general??!
As for Mali's post of the genetic map, we already know that OOAs(Out-Of-Africans) are a subset of East Africans, since the ancestors of all OOAs came from East Africa.
Mali or any of the Somalis (with sense) around here, are any you familiar with the 'was' scepter in your culture?? From what I understand, rural Somalis and Ethiopian nomads still use this and it is mostly past from father to son when the son marries. According to the book I read, this staff was a symbol of authority and leadership among nomads.
Do any of you guys know what I am talking about? What about the wegers?
Posts: 26343 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by relaxx: That confirms the fact that the Hawiyes are the purest Somali since they originally came from the South, as for Darods(like leba) and Issaqhs...who knows...either their ancestors are from Yemen, or they were totally confused.... Relaxx
The same idiot who said Isaaqs look like Amharas is know telling people who is pure Somali and who is not...
quote:Bitch, you've referenced Groves yourself in the past. Stop pretending as if he's some kind of amateur just because he's saying things that you don't like. His assessments were published in a scientific article for everyone in the scientific community to read and evaluate. They're perfectly valid.
Speaking of not liking Groves' words, since his words why didn't you accept his e-mail response to Charlie Bass? Is it because you didn't like it?
Colin Groves to Charlie Bass..
I think you're right about this. The Howells huge dataset does have some holes in it, and the Nilotic and other North East African populations constitute one of them. Rightmire, in particular, has shown that these do not really fall outside the subsaharan sphere of morphology. It would be good if Phil Rightmire would add his measurements, where compatible, to the Howells dataset (which is available for free on the web, by the way), so that we could see where these fit.
So Colin Groves is beneficial to you when you want to refute the first humans were Negroid, but he's of no importance when it comes to his words about Northeast Africans and Howells' dataset?
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